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Why do many people in life see things in black and white


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Posted (edited)

I was talking with my therapist the other day about how most situations in life are grey instead of black and white. Of course, there are many exceptions, but I feel for a vast majority, people in pain see things in very black and white terms. Sally cheated on John, so Sally is a cruel bitch. But what if John neglected her emotionally? Is she still a cruel woman? No. I would acknowledge that this woman did a heinous act, but also acknowledge that it was at a time of weakness and that her partner is at fault as well. She is not evil nor is she an angel because of her cheating. Situations such as this are not cut and dry, every aspect is riddled with grey. Now, some situations are more heinous such as having a long lasting affair for months on end, but I feel you can't pinpoint someone as the "bad" or the "good" person. Life is much more complicated than that. People are much complicated, and much of the hurt people cause is due to the hurt one has experienced in their life.

 

Leading to this, I thought over about how my ex started a new relationship immediately after the end of my relationship. I wanted to label her as a terrible person, but I can't. I realized she did so out of hurt and the need to feel self worth by other men. Of course, I could easily be wrong. I feel this way by knowing that her father neglected her throughout her life, and the fact that all her relationships developed into codependency, especially mine. Only one day did I spend away from her in the last two months of our relationship. Even when I suspected her of cheating on me, which she most likely did, with another man, let's call him Will. After having sex with him immediately after leaving me, and learning that he would call her when he was drunk throughout the last six months of our relationship and tell her how attractive and sexy she was, how he thought it was hot that she was into porn really set it all home. I did snooping on her when she admitted to having feelings for him, which was wrong of me completely. I should have ended the relationship there instead of being deceitful and taking her back. I was young and naive and I've learned better. I even remember her writing, describing how she craved him but could not have him since she was with me. Even if she didn't physically cheat on me she emotionally cheated on me, and yet I do not consider her a bad person, in fact I believe she has very great qualities. I feel her behavior stemmed from deep issues that she needs to deal with, and I feel sympathy for her. But when she does finally cope with these issues, I believe she will make a very lucky man very happy. I really hope she is happy as she deserves it, just as everyone else.

 

Then, I reflected on my own actions. I was in a very terrible state of mind, grieving and utterly depressed, when my ex left me. Even our last fight when I raised a fist at her was less about my anger towards her, I was just in a very crippling state and acted in self defense which was defending myself physically when I was abused by my peers in middle school. It's as if I was brought back to the past during that moment. My therapist truly helped me to understand that I acted out of pain and overwhelming emotions due to my panic attack and emotional breakdown, not out of being a violent man. It is incredibly difficult to truly control yourself, and it is very difficult for someone who does not have frequent panic attacks to truly understand how crippling they can be. I was in such a terrible state that I was hitting myself, crying, and could barely breathe. It was an incredibly dark period of my life that I hope I do not have to relive. Introspection helped me realize that I was not an abusive, terrible partner just as my ex is not a terrible person despite her very hurtful acts towards me. Once I came to this conclusion, I thought that all human relationships are like this. Instead of looking at the world as a black and white fixture, to truly understand someone you need to stand in their shoes and empathize with them. The people who hurt others the most usually have been hurt the most.

 

This leads me to question why most people do not do this. Of course, there are many exceptions riddled everywhere, but I noticed in many threads it is just basic " who done it?" Everyone is just looking for someone to blame instead of understanding and sympathizing for someone, even if they hurt you or have done harmful actions towards another. This is just a thought and I would love to hear other's opinions.

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Posted (edited)

Introspection takes time and honesty, and when you get past outward blaming the result is often internal responsibility. Relationships are a combination of 2 people. If someone is constantly and consistently greeted with failure in their attempts to find a mate, it is at least partially their fault for continuing to pick the wrong partner.

 

Often people just want to vent their frustration and anger, but are much more resistance to allow them-self to understand the cause of their dances with defeat.

 

1. Why did the relationship fail?

2. Was the relationship built and on shallow ground (looks, wealth, lies).

3. How can someone protect themselves from letting this happen again?

Edited by Diabloterr
  • Like 1
Posted

People do this to be able to have a grip on the situation. A nuanced view makes this a lot harder, next to the fact that a nuanced view is usually more cognitive. It is not only with break-ups people do this. Usually over time people have the psychological space to also look at other dimensions of the factual situation.

Posted

I think when they cause you an immense amount of pain and hurt, string you along, hot and cold and constantly demean you, destroy your self esteem, the very person you are. Things appear very black and white then, I never found out if she slept with anyone else, least of my worries then. (pretty sure she did towards then end mind)

Sure I was not perfect by any means but I never treated her as she treated me.

Yes there are lots of lovely things about her but she was I suspect a narcissist, although only after the relationship, trying to pick up the pieces did I see and learn about this. Counseling also helps when looking for answers that we all seem to look for when someone exits our life for no apparent reason very suddenly.

I questioned the counsellor re narcissistic traits and my identification of these in her(ex), asking was it real or was it me looking for something to blame the break up on. She (counsellor) has been seeing me during the latter stages of the break up until now, so knows me and the situation very well. She also came to the same conclusion.

So for me in my case, it is very clear cut, sure I feel very sorry for her and sad but I will also treasure the first few months, the memories, the laughs, the fun and what I thought at the time, the love. But it was all an illusion alas, but at that period in time I was so very very happy and felt very much in love.

Posted

There are certain situations that some people will never see as grey. Like physical abuse. Or cheating.

 

There is never an excuse to hit someone unless they are attacking you and will not listen to reason. Ever. If you were abused as a child, break the cycle. Get help. Don't beat the crap out of someone and then say 'oh sorry, it's not my fault, someone else did it to me'. It wasn't ok that someone did it to you, and it's not ok that you're doing it to someone else.

 

There is also never a reason to cheat. If you're that unhappy in your relationship, why can't you break up with your partner before moving on to someone else? What's the reasoning there? If someone is neglecting you, why do you want to be with that person anyway?

 

I understand what you're staying about grey areas and I do agree to some extent, but I don't think they apply to the two examples you provided.

  • Like 3
Posted

I agree with KaliLove. Most people are angry with people who cheat because it was THEIR selfish choice alone. It doesn't matter why they did it. If they were being neglected, under appreciated, etc., they have the choice to leave. That is the right thing to do. The wrong thing is to cheat. I don't think it is fair for you to blame the non-cheating partner.

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Posted

Why do I think a lot of people on this forum see things in black and white?

 

Because they are inexperienced with life. Read enough posts here and you will realize the overwhelming majority of people are in high school or starting off college.

 

I'm not saying this is a negative thing, far from it. However a lot of life experiences will make anyone see things as good or bad, white or black and the very idea that things can be in between or "grey" sometimes takes substantial life experiences.

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Posted (edited)
There are certain situations that some people will never see as grey. Like physical abuse. Or cheating.

 

There is never an excuse to hit someone unless they are attacking you and will not listen to reason. Ever. If you were abused as a child, break the cycle. Get help. Don't beat the crap out of someone and then say 'oh sorry, it's not my fault, someone else did it to me'. It wasn't ok that someone did it to you, and it's not ok that you're doing it to someone else.

 

There is also never a reason to cheat. If you're that unhappy in your relationship, why can't you break up with your partner before moving on to someone else? What's the reasoning there? If someone is neglecting you, why do you want to be with that person anyway?

 

I understand what you're staying about grey areas and I do agree to some extent, but I don't think they apply to the two examples you provided.

 

I just want to point out that I never abused anyone if there was any misconception. Yes, I raised a fist at my ex which is a terrible thing to do despite any reason, but actually committing physical abuse is another thing entirely. Losing control during a time and distress and regaining control before you can hurt someone is very different than beating your wife. Also, my parents never abused me, it was my peers at school. I was bullied for three years to the point where I actually told my mom I wanted to end my life. I was twelve back then.

 

I believe you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. I never said it was okay for any of these actions towards another. No, it most certainly isn't, but life is a lot more complicated. Nothing is cut and dry and I do not consider someone who cheats on their partner a terrible human being. if they feel no remorse and did it out of pure spite, then yes, maybe they are. But many of times it isn't that case. For example, do you consider martin Luther King Jr. to be a malicious person? Of course not, but what if I told you that he had many mistresses on the side, constantly cheating on his wife. Would you still believe he was a good person? People are filled with grey just as life is. What about Albert Einstein? He would frequently cheat on his wife. What about John Lennon? He was very abusive and would beat Yoko Ono frequently. You see my point? I don't feel it is appropriate to label these people as terrible human beings due to a few of their actions. These people have done much good to the world. Life is a lot more complicated than that.

Edited by Bishop556
Posted

Zoom in close enough and grey becomes lots of black and white dots.

 

Experience, introspection and continual learning allow us to understand our world from a broader perspective. We slowly zoom out.

 

Nuanced views and introspection require time and guidance. Not everyone has the resources and station in life to afford much spare time, let alone professional therapy.

  • Author
Posted (edited)

KaliLove, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel I missed the point you were trying to make with my last post. I'm not home yet, but I'll respond in a more reasonable way. By the way, thank you for your input. I always appreciate different opinions.

Edited by Bishop556
Posted (edited)

I understand the point you are trying to make but I respectfully disagree. Yes, Dr, King and Einstein did great things but they still hurt the people closest to them. That says a lot to me. In regards to them, I respect what they did for different reasons but I do not agree with what they did morally. For me, that does change my opinion of them. In regards to Lennon, I have known this and I view him as a hypocrite. How can he preach peace when he doesn't practice it in his own home? Not a fan in the least bit. My point is even with the examples you use I still see things in black and white when it comes to those situations. Are things in life grey? Yes, but people should never use the grey to excuse their actions. That is just my two cents though.

Edited by April Moon
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Posted

My point is that no, most people are not all good or all bad, but the good things do NOT negate the bad things. It's not a sliding scale. If you do bad things to someone, you need to remedy the bad things you've done, and then you need to take action to make sure you don't do them again.

 

If you make the same mistakes over and over again and you hurt people over and over again without trying to figure out why or fix what's wrong with you that's causing you to make those mistakes, that's what makes you a bad person.

 

Just because John Lennon did good things doesn't make it ok that he was a wife beater. Just because Einstein was a genius doesn't make it ok that he was a cheater. You don't get a free pass to do awful things if you're also doing good things.

 

I hope you're in therapy to get yourself under control so you never raise a fist to anyone ever again.

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Posted
I understand the point you are trying to make but I respectfully disagree. Yes, Dr, King and Einstein did great things but they still hurt the people closest to them. That says a lot to me. In regards to them, I respect what they did for different reasons but I do not agree with what they did morally. For me, that does change my opinion of them. In regards to Lennon, I have known this and I view him as a hypocrite. How can he preach peace when he doesn't practice it in his own home? Not a fan in the least bit. My point is even with the examples you use I still see things in black and white when it comes to those situations. Are things in life grey? Yes, but people should never use the grey to excuse their actions. That is just my two cents though.

 

What you wrote really shook my foundation. From my life experiences, the only way I have ever been able to move on from a difficult situation was when I was finally able to empathize with the people who have caused me pain in the past. Do I believe it was okay for my bully, Patrick, to harass me to the point where I told my mother I wanted to kill myself? Of course not, but I realized he most likely acted in this way because he was struggling with his sexuality and had a crush on me, so he decided to belittle me by calling me a fag and gay constantly. Was it okay for my ex to develop feelings for another while I was dating her? No, it wasn't but I feel it stems from her lack of a father figure and that her self worth is dependent on the opinion of her partner. Does it make it alright? Of course not, but I can empathize with her. This is what I meant by the world is grey. Yes, people can perform very harmful actions towards another but usually it stems from their own internal pain and trauma. Does this mean I want to ever be associated with my abuser ever again? No, I do not, but I understand and forgive him for his actions and I do wish for his happiness as it will be difficult for him to achieve.

 

I might be alone in the matter, but I feel sympathy for cheaters, abusers, liars, and the such. In my mind, it all stems from deeper issues and it makes me feel terrible that these people have to undergo such. I feel sympathy for those hurt by them, but everyone deserves understanding. I truly felt this when I met a man who was so consumed by his drug addiction that his wife left him. He was a great man, but a ****ty husband that destroyed his marriage. His actions were wrong, but he was a good, decent man. I truly hope he is happy and got his life back together. The world is full of grey even if a person's actions can be associated as right or wrong.

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Posted (edited)
My point is that no, most people are not all good or all bad, but the good things do NOT negate the bad things. It's not a sliding scale. If you do bad things to someone, you need to remedy the bad things you've done, and then you need to take action to make sure you don't do them again.

 

If you make the same mistakes over and over again and you hurt people over and over again without trying to figure out why or fix what's wrong with you that's causing you to make those mistakes, that's what makes you a bad person.

 

Just because John Lennon did good things doesn't make it ok that he was a wife beater. Just because Einstein was a genius doesn't make it ok that he was a cheater. You don't get a free pass to do awful things if you're also doing good things.

 

I hope you're in therapy to get yourself under control so you never raise a fist to anyone ever again.

 

I agree with you. Their actions are not excused by the good that they did, but they are human like everyone else. You do not get a free pass to hurt someone. I can see how my post could indicate that I believed that, but I do not. I believe that the world is grey due to that the harm people cause to other's stems from their own personal issues. Is it wrong for a husband to drink and abuse his wife? Of course! Should his wife leave him? Definitely. Does she deserve better? Yes. Does this mean I believe the man is a monster? No, I believe he is damaged and I would feel deeply sorry for how life has treated him. These issues do not stem from thin air. Everyone undergoes their own issues and pain, and that's where I believe people are grey. Maybe, I'm different but I feel deeply sorry for these people even if they have hurt another as someone's painful actions usually do stem from the pain they have experienced in their life.

 

In relation to my potential abuse, my therapist and I have discussed this thoroughly. I was ready to accept myself as abuser, but my therapist showed me that I wasn't. In fact, she told me that it sounds that it was more a defense mechanism due to your childhood trauma and during a time of deep grief and an emotional breakdown, it is understandable, not acceptable, but understandable how you could have been reverted to using potential violence to protect yourself as I needed to use violence to survive middle school to detract from the bullies that abused me. The unsettled past always resurfaces. Does it make it right what I did? No, not at all. And yet, my therapist actually told me that she thought I was a very thoughtful, kind, and caring person. She told me that she doesn't view me as a violent man, but a damaged one who has a lot of love to offer to people. Anyone looking on the outside might believe I am an abusive monster, even I believed that for months, but things are more complicated than such. That's why I believe the world is grey. It would be easy to assume I'm abusive and paint me black, but there is much more to the story than that. I am to blame and I acknowledge it. I have done terrible things to others. I, however, am a shade of grey like everyone else is.

 

I am much happier now than I was then. My therapist truly helped me move on from my trauma. I do not think I could have done it on this forum as the only advice and posting I received were those telling me to move on and that I was abusive. It took someone to truly empathize for to move on. I needed someone to see the pain I was going through and to understand that I was not just another abuser, but a damaged man who needed someone to show him compassion in a time that he did not deserve any.

Edited by Bishop556
Posted

I might be alone in saying this but here it goes. I do sympathize with people and their issues. However, I'm not willing to to excuse people for their actions. Everyone has issues! Everyone has had something traumatic happen to them. These issues shouldn't define us or excuse future behavior. I watched my parents cheat on each other. That is all I know. If I cheat on bf, he could say I understand why she did it because that is what she grew up with. However, I grew up and I am a grown woman. I know that my parents were wrong and if I do that to someone that I am wrong. My pain does not excuse my inflicting pain on another person. Your ex may have a lack of self worth but she is grown and knows what she did would hurt you. She intentionally caused you pain. Do I think she went out trying to find ways to hurt you? No. But she knew if she would continue with her selfish actions, she would hurt you. So in that moment she knew she would hurt you and went ahead and did it anyways. Does this make her a bad person? No... But it doesn't make her a good person either. She lied and hurt a person she supposedly cared about. I find actions like this hard to sympathize with. I think that is because the whole everyone is human being is copout. I strive to live the best life. That includes not hurting other people. Do I occasionally? Yes but never intentionally. I would never go into a situation where I KNEW someone would get hurt and proceed with the actions.

 

A person's past doesn't define who a person is... Their choices do. A person's character is shown when they believe no one is watching.

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Posted

Sorry if my responses seem aggressive. I just feel very passionately about certain subjects and it is hard to convey tone on the Internet. I think the Op original question and responses are thought provoking which are leading to my passionate response XD

Posted
What you wrote really shook my foundation. From my life experiences, the only way I have ever been able to move on from a difficult situation was when I was finally able to empathize with the people who have caused me pain in the past. Do I believe it was okay for my bully, Patrick, to harass me to the point where I told my mother I wanted to kill myself? Of course not, but I realized he most likely acted in this way because he was struggling with his sexuality and had a crush on me, so he decided to belittle me by calling me a fag and gay constantly. Was it okay for my ex to develop feelings for another while I was dating her? No, it wasn't but I feel it stems from her lack of a father figure and that her self worth is dependent on the opinion of her partner. Does it make it alright? Of course not, but I can empathize with her. This is what I meant by the world is grey. Yes, people can perform very harmful actions towards another but usually it stems from their own internal pain and trauma. Does this mean I want to ever be associated with my abuser ever again? No, I do not, but I understand and forgive him for his actions and I do wish for his happiness as it will be difficult for him to achieve.

 

I might be alone in the matter, but I feel sympathy for cheaters, abusers, liars, and the such. In my mind, it all stems from deeper issues and it makes me feel terrible that these people have to undergo such. I feel sympathy for those hurt by them, but everyone deserves understanding. I truly felt this when I met a man who was so consumed by his drug addiction that his wife left him. He was a great man, but a ****ty husband that destroyed his marriage. His actions were wrong, but he was a good, decent man. I truly hope he is happy and got his life back together. The world is full of grey even if a person's actions can be associated as right or wrong.

 

Your argument is that everything is a grey area, right? So how can you call someone who's done bad things a definitively good and decent person? You're contradicting your own point with that logic.

 

I do understand your point, I just don't think you're explaining it right. Yes, people who lash out at other people are, most of the time, a product of being hurt themselves. But while yes, people make mistakes, those who do not learn from major mistakes and who repeat them, I would define as bad people if those mistakes hurt others.

  • Like 3
Posted
I might be alone in saying this but here it goes. I do sympathize with people and their issues. However, I'm not willing to to excuse people for their actions. Everyone has issues! Everyone has had something traumatic happen to them. These issues shouldn't define us or excuse future behavior. I watched my parents cheat on each other. That is all I know. If I cheat on bf, he could say I understand why she did it because that is what she grew up with. However, I grew up and I am a grown woman. I know that my parents were wrong and if I do that to someone that I am wrong. My pain does not excuse my inflicting pain on another person. Your ex may have a lack of self worth but she is grown and knows what she did would hurt you. She intentionally caused you pain. Do I think she went out trying to find ways to hurt you? No. But she knew if she would continue with her selfish actions, she would hurt you. So in that moment she knew she would hurt you and went ahead and did it anyways. Does this make her a bad person? No... But it doesn't make her a good person either. She lied and hurt a person she supposedly cared about. I find actions like this hard to sympathize with. I think that is because the whole everyone is human being is copout. I strive to live the best life. That includes not hurting other people. Do I occasionally? Yes but never intentionally. I would never go into a situation where I KNEW someone would get hurt and proceed with the actions.

 

A person's past doesn't define who a person is... Their choices do. A person's character is shown when they believe no one is watching.

 

You're not alone! I agree with this post 1000%.

 

So many people use their past as a reason to excuse their bad behavior. If someone has hurt you in the past, why would you want to inflict that hurt on others knowing how much it hurt you?? Why not deal with your issues so you DON'T hurt anyone else the way you were hurt?

 

That logic drives me crazy. Why do so many people let history repeat itself instead of fixing it?

 

April, you and I seem to think very similarly. :)

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Posted
I might be alone in saying this but here it goes. I do sympathize with people and their issues. However, I'm not willing to to excuse people for their actions. Everyone has issues! Everyone has had something traumatic happen to them. These issues shouldn't define us or excuse future behavior. I watched my parents cheat on each other. That is all I know. If I cheat on bf, he could say I understand why she did it because that is what she grew up with. However, I grew up and I am a grown woman. I know that my parents were wrong and if I do that to someone that I am wrong. My pain does not excuse my inflicting pain on another person. Your ex may have a lack of self worth but she is grown and knows what she did would hurt you. She intentionally caused you pain. Do I think she went out trying to find ways to hurt you? No. But she knew if she would continue with her selfish actions, she would hurt you. So in that moment she knew she would hurt you and went ahead and did it anyways. Does this make her a bad person? No... But it doesn't make her a good person either. She lied and hurt a person she supposedly cared about. I find actions like this hard to sympathize with. I think that is because the whole everyone is human being is copout. I strive to live the best life. That includes not hurting other people. Do I occasionally? Yes but never intentionally. I would never go into a situation where I KNEW someone would get hurt and proceed with the actions.

 

A person's past doesn't define who a person is... Their choices do. A person's character is shown when they believe no one is watching.

 

It is very difficult to sympathize. I think it takes time to truly understand as for many months, I wanted her relationship to fail and for her to understand my pain. I apologized to my ex, told her that it was wrong of me to do what I did and that she did not deserve me raising a fist at her which is completely true, no one deserves potential violence from a loved one. Absolutely no one. I wished her happiness. She took it well and wanted to rekindle a friendship with me, but I knew that was an impossibility. I did not want to make her new man awkward in my presence and I knew it would never work because my ex showed no remorse for hurting me. The best I got was "I probably should not have done a lot of what I did" indicating to me that she would be perfectly fine doing it if I did not know, and "it was very low of you to accuse me of having feelings for him" even though they started being sexual three days after our break up. I guess it came to me once emotions died down and I could see things more objectively. It is incredibly difficult to sympathize for someone who hurt you, I'm still learning.

  • Author
Posted
Your argument is that everything is a grey area, right? So how can you call someone who's done bad things a definitively good and decent person? You're contradicting your own point with that logic.

 

I do understand your point, I just don't think you're explaining it right. Yes, people who lash out at other people are, most of the time, a product of being hurt themselves. But while yes, people make mistakes, those who do not learn from major mistakes and who repeat them, I would define as bad people if those mistakes hurt others.

 

I have difficulty expressing what I think into words a lot, so I'm sorry if it seems that I am not explaining myself correctly. That sounds sarcastic, but I'm not trying to be. Thinking about it now, I can see how I contradicted myself. Thank you for challenging my opinion and make me think about my values and ideas.

 

I really think the only disagreement we have is what we define as a bad person. We just both have different definitions that probably stem from life experiences.

  • Author
Posted
Sorry if my responses seem aggressive. I just feel very passionately about certain subjects and it is hard to convey tone on the Internet. I think the Op original question and responses are thought provoking which are leading to my passionate response XD

 

Everything on this forum sounds much worse than someone's actual tone of voice. :p

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  • Author
Posted (edited)
You're not alone! I agree with this post 1000%.

 

So many people use their past as a reason to excuse their bad behavior. If someone has hurt you in the past, why would you want to inflict that hurt on others knowing how much it hurt you?? Why not deal with your issues so you DON'T hurt anyone else the way you were hurt?

 

That logic drives me crazy. Why do so many people let history repeat itself instead of fixing it?

 

April, you and I seem to think very similarly. :)

 

Why do so many people let history repeat itself? Because many people do not truly understand why they do the things they do. It takes introspection, courage, and honesty to work through your issues. Also, you sometimes have to deal with your poor choices which is not pleasant for anyone to deal with.

 

Why do people want to inflict hurt on another because of how hurt they are? If you ever figure this one out, you deserve a Nobel Prize!

Edited by Bishop556
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Posted

Maybe thats half the reason the RS's didnt work out for most on here... something to be learnt from... a argument is caused by black and white... why dont we all jump into the grey and learn to compromise and see things from the other perspective x

Posted
Why do so many people let history repeat itself? Because many people do not truly understand why they do the things they do. It takes introspection, courage, and honesty to work through your issues. Also, you sometimes have to deal with your poor choices which is not pleasant for anyone to deal with.

 

Why do people want to inflict hurt on another because of how hurt they are? If you ever figure this one out, you deserve a Nobel Prize!

 

Because they don't know any better. It's the same reason why people stay in bad relationships. They're often trying to fix similar issues to ones they experienced in their pasts and change the outcome because they had no control when the same thing happened the first time around (often with their families).

 

BOOM! Where's my Nobel prize? And more importantly, where's my check?

Posted
Sally cheated on John, so Sally is a cruel bitch. But what if John neglected her emotionally? Is she still a cruel woman?

 

Why didn't Sally break up with him first? What makes people stay until the worst comes to pass, instead of going to their partner, looking them in the eye and tell them what you feel like. And dependant on their reaction you can either start working together, or part ways.

 

If people communicated and had the guts to 'do business', lots of things that seem grey would once again be black and white. But people don't like to be confronted with negative things, so they check the back door.

Which can always be avoided, always, but most people just don't have the guts anymore.

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