Have you ever TRULY changed something about yourself?

May 15, 2014

This question is directed towards men but women's responses would be helpful, too.

What motivates you to change? I'm not talking about surface habits so much, like making more effort to show up on time, or to do the dishes more. I'm talking about deeply ingrained habits, like irritability and a tendency to shut down rather than communicate when there's a conflict. When you recognize that you have behaviors like these that are affecting your relationship, is that recognition alone sufficient motivation for you to seek to change? Or do you need to hear directly from your partner how your behaviors are hurting him or her?

I know no change can happen overnight for these kinds of deeper issues. I'm talking about initiating the process and committing to improving over time, perhaps with the help of a therapist or through self-help books, etc.

Also: once you recognize the need for change and you feel you WANT to change these things, what if anything do you need from your partner as you begin the process?

I recognize a troubling pattern in my relationships where I insist that the person I'm with change. In one relationship, my boyfriend could not communicate about conflictual issues in the relationship. He would shut down and stonewall me, and generally was not very forthcoming with emotions yet would resent me for not knowing how he felt. I told him gently for years I needed him to communicate more and he said he'd try. By the last year or so, I was a broken record, begging him to change this about himself and finally I was furious with him and he broke up with me because of how angry I got.

In another, and my most recent, relationship, from the get-go my partner could be abrasive and derisive towards me, a behavior he called "teasing." I told him I didn't like it from the get-go and several times almost left him over it. He told me many times, when he felt he might lose me, that he wanted to change these aspects about himself as he could see how they affected his life and me, but always we were back to the same thing. And like the other relationship, eventually I got furious and demanded he change. And again, he ended the relationship because he felt like we fought too much. But he never made any discernable effort to change.

It seems like both guys either didn't know how to change these traits, or didn't particularly feel motivated to change, perhaps because they did not care so much about our relationship? I don't know. I am learning, very painfully, that you cannot gamble years of your life on the hope that someone will change. You either take them exactly as is, or you walk, maybe after giving them a chance to change but if they don't make a clear and consistent effort, you walk.

However, people can and do change, when they want to. Which is why I'm curious: what makes you WANT to change--enough to take consistent, active steps towards fulfilling that aim?

Edited May 15, 2014 by GreenCove

May 15, 2014

Anyone? I'd really love to hear people's thoughts on this. Especially from people who had/have partners whom they felt were pushing them to change, and maybe you didn't yourself feel the need to change those things, at least not initially.

May 16, 2014

I am open to improving myself if I think what is suggested would be positive for me in general, my life .... and not JUST the other person unless it is someone I love deeply and it would help us both as a couple - unless it was morally wrong or against my deep belief system

But change in deeply held behaviors, emotional responses and beliefs is the hardest.

How about you - you like to change and improve as well?

May 16, 2014

What motivates you to change? I'm not talking about surface habits so much, like making more effort to show up on time, or to do the dishes more. I'm talking about deeply ingrained habits, like irritability and a tendency to shut down rather than communicate when there's a conflict. When you recognize that you have behaviors like these that are affecting your relationship, is that recognition alone sufficient motivation for you to seek to change? Or do you need to hear directly from your partner how your behaviors are hurting him or her?

Change only comes when what someone is doing doesn't get them what they want and doesn't work for them.

So the only way someone will make effort to show up on time, is if being late has very negative consequences.

Irritability is hard to control, but taking irritability out on others will only be changed if again - there is a negative consequence for doing so.

Some of it is out of someone's control to change though. Like shutting down could have something to do with not being able to verbalize one's feelings, or not feeling safe to open up. That probably requires therapy to learn new behaviors.

May 16, 2014

A quote that I've found to be quite true over the years.

"Women marry men, hoping that they'll change...but they never do.

Men marry women hoping that they'll never change...but they always do."

If you find that you always need to 'change' the partner you're with...you're picking the wrong partners.

The only person you can change is yourself. Hoping to change a partner is the worst possible start in a relationship.

What is it about you that requires that they change?

There's where your energy is likely better focused.

May 16, 2014

Pteromom and Owl hit on both of the points I was going to make (Owl even cited the same quote I was going to use).

People only change their behaviors when the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. As an example, we all have coping mechanisms. Some people drink, do drugs, use porn, etc.. And frankly, coping mechanisms for stress work well - they can be fun distractions and numb the pain. Until they don't. Some people have to hit rock bottom before the advantages are not enough. They have to suffer hangovers, lose their job, lose their spouse and family, lose their home...

But to Owl's point, how much do you want to be the one to instill these negative consequences on people to spur them to change? There's not much in that for you. In your two example, even losing you wasn't enough to spur the change you needed (part of it was probably because the relationship itself was no longer fulfilling). Perhaps it's better to be more selective about who is compatible for you in the first place.

May 16, 2014

Truthfully?

Sigh...ok.

My most recent birthday passed, and I realized that other than my close family and 1 close friend (I deleted my facebook for multiple reasons), I realized that the social circle I wish I had was nonexistent.

So began my journey in re-defining who I was and what I was about. Started reading a few books given to me by that close friend, and also started to really question what it was I wanted in my life.

Family, friends, and happiness. And to get family and friends, and reach that level of happiness....I needed to reevaluate who I had become and what it is I wanted to be...at a core level.

Now I'm at the part of executing those behaviors that will eventually lead into becoming habit...and happiness will be the beautiful product that everyone strives to achieve...or at least I hope.

May 16, 2014

For me, change didn't happen overnight, becoming more selfish and self centered wasn't easy but was it worth it?

Some times i feel like ****, other times i am happy that i have changed.

I never believed in the phrase " if you can't beat 'em, join 'em " until i experienced it for myself.

May 16, 2014

People only change their behaviors when the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

But isn't one "advantage" a happier partner and better relationship? If you're irritable with your partner, for example, naturally that's going to set her on edge. So in that case, what is the advantage to remaining irritable?

But to Owl's point, how much do you want to be the one to instill these negative consequences on people to spur them to change? There's not much in that for you. In your two example, even losing you wasn't enough to spur the change you needed (part of it was probably because the relationship itself was no longer fulfilling).

I would think a negative consequence would be the conditionality of romantic love. If you don't treat your partner well, they will leave. If you don't communicate with your partner, they can't know what you need and thus the relationship cannot become more fulfilling to you.

The thing is, both of those boyfriends (the irritable one and the non-communicative one) said they really wanted to change these aspects of themselves, not just for the relationship, but for themselves. They just never followed through, and seeing how their behavior (especially the irritable one's) hurt me was not enough? I mean, of course then the relationship becomes unfulfilling, because the problem isn't being addressed. So at that point, if the person being asked to make some changes leaves, isn't it just a kind of wimping out, or a kind of laziness? I wasn't asking either man to change WHO HE WAS, just a behavior that they even admitted did not serve them well in ANY relationship.

Perhaps it's better to be more selective about who is compatible for you in the first place.

True. That's why this last relationship brought me into therapy, to explore the question that Owl stated so well:

What is it about you that requires that they change?

There's where your energy is likely better focused.

Do you think there are some people who just are more open to change and growth than others? Who see romantic relationships as opportunities to challenge themselves to grow into better people? One ex-boyfriend (the uncommunicative one) huffed to me near the end, "I am who I am, and I'm not changing." Are there people who view relationships as, "I do not intend to budge; take me exactly as I am or don't take me at all"--and do they have any relationship success. Sounds way too rigid to me.

And I did, myself, try to change in my previous relationships. With the uncommunicative one, I worked on better accepting silences from other people. It led me to the conclusion that I need more communication in a relationship, but at least I TRIED. And with the irritable one, I made excuses for him until I could make no more. I just don't get that they said they WANTED to change, and then didn't do a damn thing.

May 16, 2014

Truthfully?

Sigh...ok.

My most recent birthday passed, and I realized that other than my close family and 1 close friend (I deleted my facebook for multiple reasons), I realized that the social circle I wish I had was nonexistent.

So began my journey in re-defining who I was and what I was about. Started reading a few books given to me by that close friend, and also started to really question what it was I wanted in my life.

Family, friends, and happiness. And to get family and friends, and reach that level of happiness....I needed to reevaluate who I had become and what it is I wanted to be...at a core level.

Now I'm at the part of executing those behaviors that will eventually lead into becoming habit...and happiness will be the beautiful product that everyone strives to achieve...or at least I hope.

That's great, TLegend. Are you executing this with the help of a therapist, or on your own? Have you always been someone who is interested in growing and changing into the best person you can be, and fulfilling your vision of a happy life?

May 16, 2014

Hmm. I guess I wonder how much they really "wanted" to change. I suspect that they wanted to stop hearing about it. Telling you that they wanted to change (and would change) was probably effective at getting you to drop it for a while and it didn't take much effort on their part (as they were just words, after all).

As for why they wouldn't want to change (from being irritable or uncommunicative), I guess you would have to ask them. I don't know what the 'advantages' are for them. But I think you're talking about habits and tendencies that took years to develop. For whatever reason, those behaviors have worked for them in the past and apparently the concept of a happier girlfriend/relationship wasn't enough to entice them to change. Again, it makes me wonder why you would enter into a relationship expecting that a person would change for you.

Do I think some people might be more receptive to change? Absolutely. Some can just intellectually 'see' the disadvantages of a certain course of action and decide to avoid it. Some just get a taste of negative consequences and that's enough. And again, some have to hit rock bottom and lose everything before they change. For example, in my college days I could drink all night and the next day's hangover wasn't much of a deterrent. Now that I'm older, heavy drinking doesn't just result in one day of a hangover but two. I've started learning and changing. I didn't have to hit rock bottom, thank goodness. Other people are smarter even sooner. I don't know how you spot them but it seems an unsafe bet to count on someone changing, even when the change seems to make perfect sense to you.

May 16, 2014

That's great, TLegend. Are you executing this with the help of a therapist, or on your own? Have you always been someone who is interested in growing and changing into the best person you can be, and fulfilling your vision of a happy life?

I have NOT sought the help of a therapist yet. Although I truly do feel that talking to one would probably be much easier and probably more helpful...I feel that my stubbornness has kept me trying to change on my own.

And in truth, I want to prove to myself that I can do this...I think that will help open more doors in the future about things I feel I can or can't do.

May 17, 2014

Change only comes when what someone is doing doesn't get them what they want and doesn't work for them.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Skinner and the behaviorists are no longer thought be the final word.

Change is the only constant you can depend on. Heraclitus said, "everything flows, nothing stands still, nothing endures but change."

We don't end up being the same person we start out as––even developmentally arrested people tend to mature with time. Change comes naturally as we age, and hopefully for the better as we become enlightened. Most people have intrinsic motivation to continually improve for ourselves, those we love, and as citizens of the universe. It's not always a reward/punishment equation.

May 17, 2014

We don't end up being the same person we start out as––even developmentally arrested people tend to mature with time. Change comes naturally as we age, and hopefully for the better as we become enlightened. Most people have intrinsic motivation to continually improve for ourselves, those we love, and as citizens of the universe. It's not always a reward/punishment equation.

I always thought this, too, but my therapist has talked to me a lot about people who fundamentally cannot change, or are very unlikely to without extensive psychotherapy. Narcissists, for example, because their malaise tends to make them very resistant to psychotherapy.

And I've always thought that everyone wants to grow and change to some extent, to become better people. But now I'm no longer sure. I have after all dated three guys who did not want to change--I'm not talking about the things I asked them to change/work on for the sake of the relationship, but ANY change: none of the three of them showed any growth as people over the course of the relationship, no change in insight or outlook, nothing.

So now I think that intellectually everyone might want to grow and become better people, but emotionally many people have too many defenses against change of any kind. And in my experience, people with these defenses tend to be in denial / unaware of how resistant to change they actually are.

What do you think?

May 17, 2014

I always thought this, too, but my therapist has talked to me a lot about people who fundamentally cannot change, or are very unlikely to without extensive psychotherapy. Narcissists, for example, because their malaise tends to make them very resistant to psychotherapy.

And I've always thought that everyone wants to grow and change to some extent, to become better people. But now I'm no longer sure. I have after all dated three guys who did not want to change--I'm not talking about the things I asked them to change/work on for the sake of the relationship, but ANY change: none of the three of them showed any growth as people over the course of the relationship, no change in insight or outlook, nothing.

So now I think that intellectually everyone might want to grow and become better people, but emotionally many people have too many defenses against change of any kind. And in my experience, people with these defenses tend to be in denial / unaware of how resistant to change they actually are.

What do you think?

pretty spot on. Defensive self-validation stemming from insecurity and a shallow pride in past achievements. Mentally they're stuck from back then and unable to move on in fear of the unknown. Change is freakin scary.

I'd still agree with the others in terms of "these are not the guys you are looking for", but I understand the confusion of why people would be so self-deceptive.

We are not always the idealized versions of ourselves, and sometimes, we're embarrassed of it to point of denial. Thus the defensive mechanisms, etc. You can't always trust people's interpretation of themselves.

May 17, 2014

However, people can and do change, when they want to. Which is why I'm curious: what makes you WANT to change--enough to take consistent, active steps towards fulfilling that aim?

I think BetrayedH made some great points so I just want to add a comment based on the above observation. This is absolutely subjective. Some people can want change more than anything in the world and because of childhood or domestic neglect, emotional or physical abuse, do not have the tools or the vision to moderate behavior. The things you are referring to are things that initially stem from ingrained behavior from an early age. What you see as dysfunction, they see as normal. Or sometimes they see it as survival behavior and sometimes a crutch for emotional walls or protection.

It sounds like you demand chage from people who cannot change because of their internal dysfunction. Let me reiterate this, as some wise posters here have said, it is not your job to change people but to give them the suggestion and see if they are capable, and if not move on. It is impossible to change anyone if they are using their behaviors as crutches, protections or bandages for deep psychological neglect and/or trauma.

Find healthier people to date and remember that we all have our issues, so empathy goes a long way in having a successful partnership with another human being. My wife has deep psychological issues that she has worked on for years, and I wasn't always as understanding as I should have been, but the reward for seeing beyond her pain and uneven behavior has been a very beautiful and whole relationship. When I asked her to get I help, she did and I supported her wholeheartedly having three kids and a really great life together. I could only ask, not demand because this is so much deeper than a desire to change, there has to be a real commitment by people to let go of their past and live in the present. Some people, regardless of their desire to change will never be able to because they are stuck in the past. Also, sometimes just the fear of being vulnerable can make people absolutely resistant to any kind of change. The ones who truly want you to be in their lives will find help and commiunicate these things to you if they can. Others may never be able to because they just don't have the tools.

Best,

Grumps

May 17, 2014

It sounds like you demand chage from people who cannot change because of their internal dysfunction. Let me reiterate this, as some wise posters here have said, it is not your job to change people but to give them the suggestion and see if they are capable, and if not move on. It is impossible to change anyone if they are using their behaviors as crutches, protections or bandages for deep psychological neglect and/or trauma.

I understand. I think I don't move on because I can't emotionally understand their incapability, and so I blame myself: I tell myself that it's not that they are "incapable," but that they CHOOSE to be incapable with ME, owing to some lack in ME. And then historically I have ended up in this futile chase after validation that keeps me in the relationship long after I should have moved on. It's like running circles around a black hole. Very sad and difficult to recognize this in myself.

Find healthier people to date

Yes. I so want to find healthier men than I have dated thus far. But I am recognizing as well that to find and attract healthier men, I have to become healthier myself. For instance, as one poster said in different words: I shouldn't have to wait for someone to become a better man in order for me to get the relationship I want. That's a terrible premise from which to begin a relationship.

My wife has deep psychological issues that she has worked on for years, and I wasn't always as understanding as I should have been, but the reward for seeing beyond her pain and uneven behavior has been a very beautiful and whole relationship.

Grumpy, could you please elaborate a bit? This interests me because on the surface it sounds like she was incapable of meeting you half way for the relationship in the beginning, due to deep psychological issues. So during that time, what was the relationship like for you? I mean, you had no guarantee that even if she got help she could ultimately change. If you don't mind saying, what were some of her issues that affected your relationship?

When I asked her to get I help, she did

This, I think, makes all the difference. Right? You didn't have to spend months or years first asking, then pleading, then insisting, and then demanding that she seek professional help. You asked, and out of love for you and recognition of her responsibility to the health of the relationship, she promptly went to counseling. So whatever her issues were, they did not impede the maturity on her part to recognize that she needed to take proactive steps on her own and not, for instance, passively wait for more prodding from you and then resent you for it and take that resentment out on you and on the relationship (like all my exes did).

I could only ask, not demand because this is so much deeper than a desire to change, there has to be a real commitment by people to let go of their past and live in the present. Some people, regardless of their desire to change will never be able to because they are stuck in the past. Also, sometimes just the fear of being vulnerable can make people absolutely resistant to any kind of change. The ones who truly want you to be in their lives will find help and commiunicate these things to you if they can. Others may never be able to because they just don't have the tools.

Yes, all of my exes refused to be vulnerable. My most recent ex, as soon as he finalized the breakup with me, promptly quit going to therapy and has never resumed. The clear indication there is that he convinced himself his only problem was our relationship, and so once he got rid of that, he "had no problems," or only very minor ones. I regret deeply participating in and furthering that delusion by getting angry at him for being unable/unwilling to acknowledge or even be aware of his role in the relationship's difficulties, thus always giving him something external to him (me) to blame. And it's maddening, because even typing that I cannot understand how a grown person can be so willfully in denial about themselves; it's hard to feel like it's not on purpose, a kind of sabotage.

And that's the thing: how can you tell the difference between "can't" and "won't"? Some people WANT to change, but CAN'T, and others don't want to change, but totally CAN if they decide to make the effort. It's hard not to take especially the latter personally, and since it's hard (at least for me) to differentiate between the latter and the former, it's hard not to take an incapability to make a certain kind of change personally.

May 17, 2014

pretty spot on. Defensive self-validation stemming from insecurity and a shallow pride in past achievements. Mentally they're stuck from back then and unable to move on in fear of the unknown. Change is freakin scary.

I'd still agree with the others in terms of "these are not the guys you are looking for", but I understand the confusion of why people would be so self-deceptive.

We are not always the idealized versions of ourselves, and sometimes, we're embarrassed of it to point of denial. Thus the defensive mechanisms, etc. You can't always trust people's interpretation of themselves.

Really well put, Potsticker. Thank you. I think that's the rub: that in relationships, you assume you're dealing directly with the most rational part of the other person the majority of the time. You assume that, if they say they really want to be in the relationship, they really want to be in it. There are so many ways, however, that we all can deceive ourselves.

So what cuts through this kind of self-deception? Can an outside party (close friend, relative, partner) gently point it out? Or just be there when they finally recognize it for themselves? What does it take for a consummate "coaster" in life who is in full-scale denial about themselves to recognize the truth?

May 17, 2014

I understand. I think I don't move on because I can't emotionally understand their incapability, and so I blame myself: I tell myself that it's not that they are "incapable," but that they CHOOSE to be incapable with ME, owing to some lack in ME. And then historically I have ended up in this futile chase after validation that keeps me in the relationship long after I should have moved on. It's like running circles around a black hole. Very sad and difficult to recognize this in myself.

There is a lack in you then that makes you believe their inability to meet your needs is somehow your fault. While focusing on them changing, you are forgetting to take care of your own insecurities which could explain why you keep attracting these highly dysfunctional people. People who want to be with you and have a healthy relationship can at least acknowledge their issues and do the work to change, but others who are broken or damaged won't see it and will live in denial. That is the difference between those who want to and those who want to but can't due to their own damage. In order to want to but not be able to, you have to be pretty damaged and they will require far more than most people will be willing to give.

Yes. I so want to find healthier men than I have dated thus far. But I am recognizing as well that to find and attract healthier men, I have to become healthier myself. For instance, as one poster said in different words: I shouldn't have to wait for someone to become a better man in order for me to get the relationship I want. That's a terrible premise from which to begin a relationship.

Again, this is about finding out what inside of you makes you believe that you deserve to be treated poorly, why do you think you deserve to not have your needs met? This is an internal question about validation we each have to answer when we stay in any situation for too long after we recognize the dysfunction and futility of it.

Grumpy, could you please elaborate a bit? This interests me because on the surface it sounds like she was incapable of meeting you half way for the relationship in the beginning, due to deep psychological issues. So during that time, what was the relationship like for you? I mean, you had no guarantee that even if she got help she could ultimately change. If you don't mind saying, what were some of her issues that affected your relationship?

My little wife suffered immeasurably as a child with neglect, physical, mental and emotional abuse on top of severe poverty. When we first got together neither of us were aware of how deep her feelings were and how angry and in pain she was. For the first two years we dealt with it because she wanted to change and I was wiling to do whatever needed because she was sincere in her efforts. We mainly dealt with abandonment issues, drinking as a form of self medication, and anger, lashing out. I naturally had no idea what to do but I recognized right away some aspects of what I had gone through as a child and could relate therefore I asked her to work with me or we could quit and she could move on with her life. I loved her dearly but I wasn't going to live my one life on this planet trying to fix someone else if they didn't want that. I had worked too hard on myself, improving and growing up and seeking enlightenment.

I was willing to do the work with her, to be there as support but she had to do three things...get help from a professional over her child abuse and alcohol binging, figure out ways to communicate what she had endured to me so I could figure out the best ways to deal with it for us both since she was acting from a place of anger and pain, and she had to trust me to do what I thought was best for us both. She did, accepted my partnership and we worked on it together, sometimes there were blips along the way, sometimes I thought she was going to stay mired in the dysfunction forever, but I fought for her, I fought for our new little family (just us back then) and I carried us through a great deal of it, with her working her butt off and doing what she needed to do while taking care of business, developing her journalism career, and being a military wife which was no picnic. The girl knows how to work, and she is smart and resourceful so we made it because she never once made it seem like she wasn't willing and able to overcome. The effort was there, and the work was there so I just had to be patient when sometimes I thought I was going to lose my mind because she was soooo angry. Not at me, of course, but I was her safe place and we worked through it.
I don't know one relationship that doesn't have some sort of challenges like this. I'm a fighter though, I fought my way out of my own bad childhood as an emancipated minor, virtually homeless traveling the USA when I was sixteen. If anyone could relate to her anger, it was me. I had found my footing and so I had to help her find hers...and she failed a couple million times but she kept getting up and trying all over again. Finally she got to the point where she was healthy and happy and her past was just that, her past. We adopted her sisters three kids even and she was amazing as a mom for those children. She is a survivor and never stopped fighting for us....for herself. I'm glad I fought for her and she was exactly what I knew she always was, a beautiful and sweet woman who just needed someone to believe in her. She has never forgotten those years, and has always been extremely good to me. Even at her worst, she was always a good wife and tried her best to make me feel loved and wanted. I assure you she wanted to heal, she wanted to be whole and she wanted to be my wife fully, and she was and is the sweetest woman in the world....just had to get the necessary help for her anger issues over her terrible childhood.

This, I think, makes all the difference. Right? You didn't have to spend months or years first asking, then pleading, then insisting, and then demanding that she seek professional help. You asked, and out of love for you and recognition of her responsibility to the health of the relationship, she promptly went to counseling. So whatever her issues were, they did not impede the maturity on her part to recognize that she needed to take proactive steps on her own and not, for instance, passively wait for more prodding from you and then resent you for it and take that resentment out on you and on the relationship (like all my exes did).

No, as I said, when someone is ready and they want healthy and good, they will get help. You don't have to persuade them, or beg them to help themselves, they want to do this. I never tried to change her, I just helped her figure out how to change some behaviors that were hurting her and by extension our marriage. I went with her when she was scared to go the the therapist, helped her find a new one when one wasn't really effective, it wasn't easy as I'm a very protective man and when she told me of some of the things done to her, I couldn't believe the rage that coursed through me. I was amazed one who as a child suffered so much could be so lovely and loving. I wanted to kill them, but instead we just have maintained NC for the last fifteen years or so. Her choice....

Yes, all of my exes refused to be vulnerable. My most recent ex, as soon as he finalized the breakup with me, promptly quit going to therapy and has never resumed. The clear indication there is that he convinced himself his only problem was our relationship, and so once he got rid of that, he "had no problems," or only very minor ones. I regret deeply participating in and furthering that delusion by getting angry at him for being unable/unwilling to acknowledge or even be aware of his role in the relationship's difficulties, thus always giving him something external to him (me) to blame. And it's maddening, because even typing that I cannot understand how a grown person can be so willfully in denial about themselves; it's hard to feel like it's not on purpose, a kind of sabotage.

And that's the thing: how can you tell the difference between "can't" and "won't"? Some people WANT to change, but CAN'T, and others don't want to change, but totally CAN if they decide to make the effort. It's hard not to take especially the latter personally, and since it's hard (at least for me) to differentiate between the latter and the former, it's hard not to take an incapability to make a certain kind of change personally.

Please read bold replies in original posting.

If they can't, they are too far gone or damaged for you anyway. If they won't, they aren't at the same place in their life you are. If my wife had so done anything other than want healthy and happy, I would have moved on. I have little tolerance for those who will not, for whatever reason help themselves. I came from terrible terrible beginnings, don't tell me things can't be done when I built myself up from the ground. I've always set healthy boundaries for myself and for her...she expects much from me and I expect the same. We don't allow each other to be mediocre or carry other people's pain with us through life. She deserved better and so do I.

I hope that helped. Time for you to figure out what makes you feel like you are the reason for other people's issues. Time to want something better for yourself. You deserve it. We can't save those we love if they do not have the temerity or the desire to save themselves. I would have moved on had she not wanted healthy and happy even though it would have tore my heart out. Loving someone isn't always enough to stop the madness within all by yourself and I'm a pretty tenacious man. We are responsible for us, and that's all.

TMI, I'm sure,

Grumps

May 17, 2014

Well for starters - therapists and self-help books I've avoided like the plague my entire life. Toxic substances.

But kidding aside:

The greatest motivation to change is simply this: You make a change (for the better) and begin to notice that people around you respond....sometimes in absolutely astonishingly positive ways. Which motivates the crap out of you to want to keep that ball rolling. Which leads to more of the same.

(How to win friends and influence your uncle?)

Depends on the uncle.

As to changes required of another / changes for another......................

I always figured it was a matter of how fundamentally ingrained those factors are.

Surface stuff - the stuff that requires a little bit of alteration to smooth out the rough edges - that's fine.

But the deeply ingrained stuff? That sounds to me more like non-acceptance.

I remember hearing about women (when I was a young man) who liked to make a fella a "project." Re-model him into an accepable image of .........????????

I heard about them - but never actually met one.

That being said - have I been civilized by women? Absolutely. Wouldn't be without it! At least 50% of all the social graces I possess have been learned at a woman's knee.

About 40% I figured out on my own........

The other 10% - coughed up by men.

But OP - if what you describe you've noticed is becoming a pattern, I'd seriously consider the common denominator in the equation.

There's the changer, and then there's the changee. (That goose and gander thing.)

We were none of us ever born perfect, although I'm sure we were all cute babies!

May 17, 2014

As to changes required of another / changes for another......................
I always figured it was a matter of how fundamentally ingrained those factors are.
Surface stuff - the stuff that requires a little bit of alteration to smooth out the rough edges - that's fine.
But the deeply ingrained stuff? That sounds to me more like non-acceptance.

*Sigh.* Yeah, maybe it was non-acceptance. Except when you say, "deeply ingrained stuff," are you referring to core personality or psychological issues that impede healthy interactions?

My most recent ex, for example: I DID enjoy his core personality. When his guard was down, he was really enjoyable to be around. But out of nowhere he could get really irritable and impatient, or fixate on getting under my skin, and then I'd feel such despair. I can't imagine anyone being able to accept that behavior. I told many times how much I didn't like it. I tried telling him calmly and then as frustration with it mounted I'd get mad and yell, which I'm not proud of. I didn't leave because I loved him...and because of some codependency issues of which I am slowly becoming aware. I never wanted to make him my "project" and I never wanted him to feel unaccepted, though he said he felt he always had to "walk on eggshells." I'd always say in response to that that I didn't exactly see him tiptoeing around but rather, when he was being irritable or provocative, stomping those eggshells to dust.

Here's an example from a thread I started about this relationship (https://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/266670-time-end-relationship) about these dynamics:

I'm really at a loss. We had another fight last night until 2 a.m. and I almost ended it with him, but by then I was just too tired to go through with it. I told him in the course of our argument that I needed him to be more sensitive and romantic, that I felt unsafe in the relationship with him and felt that while in his own way he loved me, it nevertheless results in my feeling unloved and uncherished because he can so often be so boorish in his behavior, despite so many, many times of my pointing it out to him. So, today I receive a lunchtime text from him saying how he loves me and I'm his star, etc., and I feel unmoved at this point. Those compliments and romantic gestures only come after we've had an argument and he's trying to supplicate himself to me. It's not the status quo and so I feel it's disingenuous when he does it. And I feel bad; he'll say, "Maybe I'm not good enough for you," and I'm starting to feel that that's the truth. But simultaneously I feel terrible that I make someone feel that way; he deserves to feel good in a relationship just as I do. But I feel like he just keeps on making the same mistakes, and then getting mad at me for pointing out that it's the same thing over and over and over, ad nauseum.

This went on for 2.5 more YEARS. I just did not know what to do. In retrospect I think he was abusive and that is why he could not change those behaviors...but when I think of it in terms of "non-acceptance" then I end up feeling like the abuser. I really felt at the time that this was behavior that HAD to change and I didn't see any way I could "help" him change it except to try to communicate to him exactly what ill effect these particular behaviors had on me and on our relationship. He never really "got it."

So I guess that's it, then: when you know you have tried to get through to a person and they still don't get it and/or show no motivation to change, it's time to bail. It's just--at that point, is it really "non-acceptance," fundamentally, of the PERSON?

That being said - have I been civilized by women? Absolutely. Wouldn't be without it! At least 50% of all the social graces I possess have been learned at a woman's knee.

So what made it possible for you to accept this, er, social grace boot camp;)? Was it how the women communicated to you where they felt you were a little rough? Were there times you staunchly resisted this "civilization process"?

But OP - if what you describe you've noticed is becoming a pattern, I'd seriously consider the common denominator in the equation.
There's the changer, and then there's the changee. (That goose and gander thing.)

Oh, I am. It seems that I need to learn to just let go and walk away when there is repeated behavior that really upsets me (note I'm not talking about little quirks or omissions but major roadblocks to healthy interaction like a tendency to withdraw rather than communicate or to be irritable and contemptuous rather than make any attempt to curb that behavior). Instead, I just clamp on and insist on change. I know it feels bad to be on the receiving end of that...but what I never have understood is how, despite all my efforts to communicate gently and clearly, there NEVER was an awareness or concern or acknowledgement regarding how their behavior might have made ME feel.

It was just this miserable, exhausting spiral. Edited May 17, 2014 by GreenCove

May 17, 2014

There is a lack in you then that makes you believe their inability to meet your needs is somehow your fault. While focusing on them changing, you are forgetting to take care of your own insecurities which could explain why you keep attracting these highly dysfunctional people. People who want to be with you and have a healthy relationship can at least acknowledge their issues and do the work to change, but others who are broken or damaged won't see it and will live in denial. That is the difference between those who want to and those who want to but can't due to their own damage. In order to want to but not be able to, you have to be pretty damaged and they will require far more than most people will be willing to give.

Grumpybutfun, thank you. This is very helpful. And you and your wife sound like amazing people to have been able to overcome so much, individually and as a couple.

So is the tell-tale sign of someone who is "incapable" of changing or making an effort to change, unshakeable denial? I remember early on in the relationship with my most recent ex, he informed me that he "has no baggage." At first I thought he was joking but he really believed it, and I found it very confusing that someone so intelligent and functional in other ways was so heavily in denial. And then I went into denial because I just could not accept / understand / believe that deep down he didn't know full well that he had plenty of baggage, just like the rest of us!

May 18, 2014

Grumpybutfun, thank you. This is very helpful. And you and your wife sound like amazing people to have been able to overcome so much, individually and as a couple.

So is the tell-tale sign of someone who is "incapable" of changing or making an effort to change, unshakeable denial? I remember early on in the relationship with my most recent ex, he informed me that he "has no baggage." At first I thought he was joking but he really believed it, and I found it very confusing that someone so intelligent and functional in other ways was so heavily in denial. And then I went into denial because I just could not accept / understand / believe that deep down he didn't know full well that he had plenty of baggage, just like the rest of us!

One is denial, one is ego, one is fear...there are a plethora of ways someone can sabotage themselves into not making any changes. When someone gives you an absolute like always or never....red flag. No one over the age of ten comes with no baggage, no ego or no fear. Psychologically, anyone who tries to turn the issues around on you or pretends to be without anything is living inside of their own mired viewpoints and yes, they won't be able to change because as you know, we do not change what we cannot acknowledge.

As soon as my wife and I hit our first bump in the road, she wanted to rectify her behavior and heal from her childhood. That is someone who has a real chance at having a beautiful life with you, not someone who is in denial and makes everything about the world or external factors. As you see daily here, people who just give up because everyone else is wrong, at fault, bad, don't want guys or girls like them, etc. these people don't want to rectify their situation. They don't want to see the common denominator which is them. They want to blame everything and everyone else...these people aren't healthy and won't be good mates until they grow up and take responsibility for their roles in their own failures, pasts and hang ups.

We have to find people whom we not only feel attraction, interest and warmth towards, but who are ready and willing to share their lives with you In a productive and meaningful manner. Sometimes you might find someone who is damaged but willing to do whatever it takes to heal...those are the ones you keep, the rest you walk away from because staying with those who deny, who blame externals, who finds fault in you constantly...you enable them to not heal and you waste your time and energy on the soul sucking dark hole they will become in your life.

My wife and I are very aware of how rare it is to be able to work through that level of trauma and I am very proud of her effort and bravery. I love her more today than I ever have before because she is a little thriver in this world, she didn't let her past define her.

Good luck,

Grumps

Edited May 18, 2014 by Grumpybutfun

May 18, 2014

i like routine.......the usual......i do know when change is needed and i dont change.......i adapt........or my other personalities come out and i take a break.......when i have changed for others or for circumstances...it is survival....and i revert ....otherwise i simply adapt...i do this commonly with people so i can relate......deb

May 18, 2014

Sometimes you might find someone who is damaged but willing to do whatever it takes to heal...those are the ones you keep, the rest you walk away from because staying with those who deny, who blame externals, who finds fault in you constantly...you enable them to not heal and you waste your time and energy on the soul sucking dark hole they will become in your life.

Words of wisdom here! Great post Grumps. When you find someone who is exploring their soul, facing fear head on and able to just talk openly about the wounds they are seeking to heal... those folks are relationship material. The ones who are unable/unwilling to soften their defenses (denial and projection mostly) are probably going to be unhappy, and whatever you're able to give will not be enough. They will resent you for withholding and not making them eternally happy. It's sad, but if you attempt to rescue they'll pull you under too. You have to at least find someone who has embraced the process and is on the path to enlightenment in this regard.

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