Owl Posted June 10, 2014 Posted June 10, 2014 And...I'll admit, after re-reading this thread, that I may have confused Smitten's story with CMW's. Apologies if I've misremembered someone's situation...sometimes it's hard keeping it all straight. CMW...if I remember YOUR situation right...you've not told your H about your affair, yes? My only response to your questions of ownership would be to discuss that with him...see how HE feels about ownership in your joint relationship with him. Because it's not just your marriage...it's half his as well. Unfortunately, he's working with half the pertinent information at this point too.
ConfusedMarriedOW Posted June 10, 2014 Posted June 10, 2014 I just find it ridiculous that so many of you on here are proclaiming "the vows say this, the betrayal, the infidelity, the promises made when marrying, bla bla bla" As IF you are all so dedicated to the marriage. Yet, most of you divorced your wives or husbands because of the affair. That isn't dedication to partnership or marriage, or love even.. That is just all about being right and keeping what you own. People change, some have needs, some make mistakes. Working through things as gently as possible saves the marriage. Statements about betrayal, trust, honor, lying etc.. it is all about blame and control. No one has to stay in an open relationship or in a non monogamous one if they don't want to. But to not understand that someone may feel urgest to stray in this long life we all hopefully lead is ridiculous. Who cares about laws or vows once a person has changed. That person has changed and you have to either work with who they are now, or move on. No blame. Just is. And...I'll admit, after re-reading this thread, that I may have confused Smitten's story with CMW's. Apologies if I've misremembered someone's situation...sometimes it's hard keeping it all straight. CMW...if I remember YOUR situation right...you've not told your H about your affair, yes? My only response to your questions of ownership would be to discuss that with him...see how HE feels about ownership in your joint relationship with him. Because it's not just your marriage...it's half his as well. Unfortunately, he's working with half the pertinent information at this point too.
Sub Posted June 10, 2014 Posted June 10, 2014 I just find it ridiculous that so many of you on here are proclaiming "the vows say this, the betrayal, the infidelity, the promises made when marrying, bla bla bla" As IF you are all so dedicated to the marriage. Yet, most of you divorced your wives or husbands because of the affair. That isn't dedication to partnership or marriage, or love even.. That is just all about being right and keeping what you own. If I'm understanding this correctly: One spouse can pretty much do whatever they want to the other in terms of fidelity, lying, etc. And if the other spouse chooses to not to accept it and wants to move on, it's THEM who isn't showing love and dedication? True love isn't just about sticking with someone through all of their mistakes, no matter how much it hurts you. And leaving someone doesn't mean you don't love them. It could mean you love yourself just as much and want to protect yourself from further pain. 6
Owl Posted June 10, 2014 Posted June 10, 2014 (edited) I just find it ridiculous that so many of you on here are proclaiming "the vows say this, the betrayal, the infidelity, the promises made when marrying, bla bla bla" As IF you are all so dedicated to the marriage. Yet, most of you divorced your wives or husbands because of the affair. That isn't dedication to partnership or marriage, or love even.. That is just all about being right and keeping what you own. People change, some have needs, some make mistakes. Working through things as gently as possible saves the marriage. Statements about betrayal, trust, honor, lying etc.. it is all about blame and control. No one has to stay in an open relationship or in a non monogamous one if they don't want to. But to not understand that someone may feel urgest to stray in this long life we all hopefully lead is ridiculous. Who cares about laws or vows once a person has changed. That person has changed and you have to either work with who they are now, or move on. No blame. Just is. I divorced no one. We're happily married and reconciled. She's glad of her choice to work things out with me...as am I. I did indeed uphold my vows to my wife...for better, and for worse. And we've worked through the worse...back on the better now. But lets take a step back here, Does your husband share your views on monogamy/fidelity/infidelity/betrayal/trust, honor, lying etc.. ? Does he know how you've changed, and agreed to stay with you with full knowledge of those changes? That's the true crux...the betrayal, and the lies and deception. Have you stopped the deception and lie by omission? Edited June 19, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Owl Posted June 10, 2014 Posted June 10, 2014 And to keep this focused on the OP's post...my concern for her remains. Her H is standing by her with the knowledge that CMOW references...for now. But...that's rarely a lasting condition, in my own personal experience and in my long time observations here on LS. Which is why I cautioned Tarnished to take that into account. Her husband is likely desperate to keep her in his life for now...but that may change over time as he doesn't feel their relationship rebuilding. Or, he may get some self-respect back and realize that being someone's fallback plan isn't what he wants to be...which is precisely the realization I came to. She needs to be aware of that potential change in her situation that she may have no control over. And she needs to understand how that may impact reconciliation efforts later, since she seems to have an expectation of reconciliation after all of this is done. 1
Hope Shimmers Posted June 10, 2014 Posted June 10, 2014 Exactly when does someone falling in love with someone else make it so that you don't love the original person anymore? That is possessive in the full sense of the word. You say here that her husband knows so there isn't betrayal, or manipulation in her case. Her husband is being supportive while she goes through the motions of grief. That my friend is REAL LOVE. He loves her regardless of her being "obedient" he wants her to be happy. Loving someone even if they don't give you every little thing you want. That is love. The other option is one of ownership, control and possession. It is like two kids fighting over one doll. MY doll. No my doll! MINE MINE MINE. She doesn't belong to anyone. She is able to see other people because she has eyes, she is able to think and FEEL because she has a brain. This OM provided something for her that she very much enjoyed and now she mourns its loss, This is natural when you feel for someone else. It is natural to feel for many people in your life. Whether she tells her husband or not, isn't it betrayal to be untruthful AT ALL even with HERSELF? If she feigned not being in love with someone else when she truly felt it, then that is a lie to her own self. Then she is clinging onto a husband while feeling sad and loss. I would think that you would commend her on being open with her husband and him being supportive while she mourns. I don't think you understood DKT3's post (or else I think you are misinterpreting the BS's motivations). I agree with you that people can love more than one person at once. However, the rest of this post is just... well, nonsense. I don't agree that BS is being supportive of this situation out of love. I'm not saying he doesn't love her. But I think he is acting out of desperation not to lose her. This is a sign of low self-esteem on his part in my opinion - he may soon realize that he is second in line and decide not to put up with this. I seriously doubt that he was okay with the betrayal. That is a BIG difference. Even if it's true that people can love more than one person, being in a marriage involves promises of fidelity (unless there are other agreements in place). OP, I think you will be sorry if you don't work on your marriage. You have an opportunity that few people have. Believe me, I do understand the pain that you feel, and I wish you well. 1
ConfusedMarriedOW Posted June 10, 2014 Posted June 10, 2014 I don't think you understood DKT3's post (or else I think you are misinterpreting the BS's motivations). I agree with you that people can love more than one person at once. However, the rest of this post is just... well, nonsense. I don't agree that BS is being supportive of this situation out of love. I'm not saying he doesn't love her. But I think he is acting out of desperation not to lose her. This is a sign of low self-esteem on his part in my opinion - he may soon realize that he is second in line and decide not to put up with this. I seriously doubt that he was okay with the betrayal. That is a BIG difference. Even if it's true that people can love more than one person, being in a marriage involves promises of fidelity (unless there are other agreements in place). OP, I think you will be sorry if you don't work on your marriage. You have an opportunity that few people have. Believe me, I do understand the pain that you feel, and I wish you well. How could you possibly know that? Maybe you are right? But people DO have open marriages and it seems to me (and perhaps she can correct this), that they seem to have some sort of understanding? It has been going on for a very long time now. Of course you could be right too. But what I am saying here is that not every marriage is the same yet everyone doles out advice on here as if it is. I am showing the other type of marriage that exists. The more open marriage. They DO exist.
MissBee Posted June 10, 2014 Posted June 10, 2014 (edited) How do you move on when you no longer have any way to contact or see your ex-AP and have no control over that? That's precisely how you move on and what real NC is about. I think a large part of why you're still hung up is because you saw him often and thought of him as someone still present in your life, whereas there is something to being out of sight and out of mind with genuine NC, which is a blessing you're getting by him leaving. That was how I was able to move on. Having genuine NC where I neither saw nor spoke to my exAP for a year. Comparing the NC breakups to the slow "weaning off" ones I found it took me twice as long if not more to get over the ones where I tried to slowly wean myself off and still be friends etc. Edited June 10, 2014 by MissBee 2
Hope Shimmers Posted June 10, 2014 Posted June 10, 2014 How could you possibly know that? Maybe you are right? But people DO have open marriages and it seems to me (and perhaps she can correct this), that they seem to have some sort of understanding? It has been going on for a very long time now. Of course you could be right too. But what I am saying here is that not every marriage is the same yet everyone doles out advice on here as if it is. I am showing the other type of marriage that exists. The more open marriage. They DO exist. That's why I said "I THINK you might be misinterpreting the BS's motives". I agree - there are different types of marriages. But from the original post, does it sound to you like the BS is happy with this or that he agree prior to this that they would have an open marriage? Of course it's possible that the OP left that out, but even so, that's not how the post read to me. How is 12 months a "very long time"? That part confuses me. Just her saying that he is "waiting for her to get over it" isn't indicative of an agreement to be in an open marriage. In my opinion. 1
ConfusedMarriedOW Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 I am going on her responses in this thread. She claims that he isn't possessive and is supportive and has a different dynamic in her marriage than the naysayers and apparently psychic folk of this thread are accusing her of. Since I am not in her bedroom, I am taking her word on this. Everyone has a different type of husband. Her husbands reaction is already tolerant..why assume he is going to react in a way that is different later. My best friends husband was very tolerant of then deciding later to open the marriage. Why not in this case too? You don't know them, nor do I, yet you can claim to know exactly how he is going to backlash My exMM for example was trying to push his wife (pre ME btw) to sleep with other men because he wasn't able to perform for her in the bedroom. He feels zero jealousy in that department. He had vows, he is legally married. And actually his wife said she would be willing to be with other men but didn't give him permission to be with other women hahah So yeah...who are we to say what is right, wrong, or what will happen? Its not about being jealous its about being betrayed lied to and manipulated by someone who claims to love you. Sounds to me your in a different situation. If your husband knows and is ok with it then where is the betrayal lies and manipulation? You are two adults, who you conduct your marriage is up to the two of you. If he is ok with it then its simply a happy cuckold or an open marriage. Good for you. That's why I said "I THINK you might be misinterpreting the BS's motives". I agree - there are different types of marriages. But from the original post, does it sound to you like the BS is happy with this or that he agree prior to this that they would have an open marriage? Of course it's possible that the OP left that out, but even so, that's not how the post read to me. How is 12 months a "very long time"? That part confuses me. Just her saying that he is "waiting for her to get over it" isn't indicative of an agreement to be in an open marriage. In my opinion.
Hope Shimmers Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 You don't know them, nor do I, yet you can claim to know exactly how he is going to backlash Yet again, I'll point out that I said "in my opinion" - as I always do. Nowhere did I EVER claim to know "exactly how anyone is going to backlash". However, going by the odds, the prevalence of open marriages are much, much lower than traditional marriages, even in the area where I come from, which is very socially liberal. Furthermore, it was always my understanding that people in open marriages usually agree not to get emotionally involved with the other person, which does not seem to be the case here. So yeah...who are we to say what is right, wrong, or what will happen? Well, let's see... we are the people responding to the thread she posted on an open forum, with the intent to receive feedback and opinions. I didn't mean to get you worked up, ConfusedMarriedOW. You seem to be really touchy on this subject. If my opinions are way off base I'll apologize to the OP. Now, onward...
Popsicle Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 I am sorry and I wish you luck. It's going to be okay. My AP is out of the country for several months and he may not even come back alive. I never know what's going on at any moment (neither does his wife) so I can relate. I may not ever talk to him again. It can be better in a way to have this closure of something that was wrong and never supposed to happen anyway. 1
Hope Shimmers Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 OP, I have only read this thread (which, if I am wrong about the open marriage thing, may be why) - but to answer your question as to how you get past the feelings about ex-MM.... the only way is time. And lack of contact. If you do keep in contact, as much as that might seem desirable right now, all it does is prolong the process of getting over it. Each day helps you get to where you need to be. 1
EnderA Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 My exMM for example was trying to push his wife (pre ME btw) to sleep with other men because he wasn't able to perform for her in the bedroom. He feels zero jealousy in that department. He had vows, he is legally married. And actually his wife said she would be willing to be with other men but didn't give him permission to be with other women hahah This sounds like the complete BS that MMs like to lay on the OW to help her alleviate any guilt she may have over the A. MMs are basically going to tell any story they can to keep the cake coming.
Bootsie Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 ... My husband knows all of this - he knows I have never passionately loved him like I love AP. My husband is aware of my feelings for AP and is patiently waiting for me to get over him, ... ... My husband is realising the depth of my feelings for ex-AP and yes, I need to refocus or risk losing him when his patience runs out (he's been very understanding of everything so far).... I disagree, my H supports my relationship with OM 100%. My husband knows I can love more than one and that if push came to shove I would pick him. However, my husband feels no need to issue ultimatums. My relationship with OM is on the outs right now and we are NC, my husband talks to me about how I am feeling and wants to make sure I am OK mentally/emotionally/physically. Not every man is jealous and/or possessive. ...it seems to me (and perhaps she can correct this), that they seem to have some sort of understanding? It has been going on for a very long time now. Of ... I am going on her responses in this thread. She claims that he isn't possessive and is supportive and has a different dynamic in her marriage than the naysayers and apparently psychic folk of this thread are accusing her of. Since I am not in her bedroom, I am taking her word on this. Everyone has a different type of husband. Her husbands reaction is already tolerant..why assume he is going to react in a way that is different later. ... So yeah...who are we to say what is right, wrong, or what will happen? To Confused Married Woman, you appear to be confusing Tarnished, the OP of this thread with Smitten4 ever. It is Smitten who has the tolerant supportive husband of a long-term "friendship", not Tarnished whose husband is waiting for her to get over the MM. 3
jwi71 Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 You are very right in every thing you say. This is not some Romeo & Juliet scenario where we are being kept apart - he has chosen not to be with me and I need to accept that. Him losing his job is just the final chapter (he didn't choose to leave work). Are you suggesting his was involuntarily terminated? If so, do you believe your A (and possibly current behaviors) contributed? Do you believe YOUR job to be in jeopardy? Or was this a demand from his W? My husband is realising the depth of my feelings for ex-AP and yes, I need to refocus or risk losing him when his patience runs out (he's been very understanding of everything so far). If I may - why does your H allow you to continue to feed your A (which is what this continued contact is doing - your own words tell us this in terms of tone and vocabulary)? Why do YOU continue this? What goal do you seek that this behavior HELPS to accomplish? This is the first time I've had to acknowledge that ex-AP won't be around anymore and it's very confronting... In prior posts, you indicated you were open and honest to your H after being caught. Have you shared these feelings with him? Actually - what do YOU want? What future would make YOU most happy? 1
blue963 Posted June 11, 2014 Posted June 11, 2014 im sorry that this has happened and you feel so deeply about him. Perhaps if you cant contact him you will get over him faster. I dont mean to sound cruel. I know it is very hard, especially when you have contact. 1
Author Tarnished Posted June 18, 2014 Author Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) WOW - thanks everyone for your replies, even if some of them were slightly off topic! To clarify a few things... My husband, whilst initially very angry and hurt over the A, has actually learnt alot about himself in the time since disclosure and realised he is quite turned on by the thought of me being with another man. I don't want an open marriage but I think he would be open to "adventures" if I agreed. For me the A was more about my attraction and feelings for the exMM as a person, rather than just wanting sex with someone different to my husband. Someone asked me what do I want? I honestly don't know... I know that I love my husband - he is my best friend and I discuss every aspect of my feelings and interactions with exMM with him, which we both agree is very weird and hard for others to understand. We have young children so to separate is difficult and there is still a lot of love and companionship in our marriage - just not alot of physical attraction from my side. The question I continually ask myself is can I be happy going forward that I'll never again have the lust and sexual excitement that I felt with exMM and can I settle for companionship and stability, as offered by my husband? I also struggle with am I doing the right thing by my husband. He is clear that he wants me to stay - he loves me and is attracted to me, but is it fair of me to make him settle for less than he deserves? Shouldn't he have someone who loves him and puts him first... As for the situation with exMM. We've actually had a bit of a chat recently and cleared the air on a few outstanding issues. He's finally apologised to me for the way he handled everything (ie. throwing me under the bus) and has taken responsibility for his actions. This means a great deal to me as up until now he refused to discuss it and made it all out to be my fault. It saddened me to hear him say that he regrets our A, when he said during it that he never would regret being with me. But I guess your feelings change when you get caught out by your BS and your world falls apart! ExMM will leave work shortly (and no, our A played no part whatsoever in him being made redundant). I asked him if we could have a final meeting before he goes (not sexual) but he said he's been too hurt by everything that's happened and I accept that. I just wanted to say goodbye in person. So this major chapter of my life will soon come to a close and I will be forced to make some tough decisions about my marriage going forward and only time will tell which way things go. I know that I'll still miss exMM but in time that will fade... It's time now to focus on my husband and myself. Edited June 18, 2014 by Tarnished
chelsea2011 Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 That's great. Hope everything works out well for all of you.
Owl Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 WOW - thanks everyone for your replies, even if some of them were slightly off topic! To clarify a few things... My husband, whilst initially very angry and hurt over the A, has actually learnt alot about himself in the time since disclosure and realised he is quite turned on by the thought of me being with another man. I don't want an open marriage but I think he would be open to "adventures" if I agreed. For me the A was more about my attraction and feelings for the exMM as a person, rather than just wanting sex with someone different to my husband. I've never understood men who react this way, although I've heard it before. I'm curious...is your husband clearly aware of the bolded part? Does HE understand that it wasn't the physical aspect that kept you going back, but the emotional? And is he still 'ok' with that? [quote[ Someone asked me what do I want? I honestly don't know... This was likely me. I think it's the primary, most critical thing you need to figure out. Do you want your marriage? Do you want your H? Do you want to continue the A? You really need to figure out who you want to be, what you want to do next. That tells you what your next steps need to be... I know that I love my husband - he is my best friend and I discuss every aspect of my feelings and interactions with exMM with him, which we both agree is very weird and hard for others to understand. We have young children so to separate is difficult and there is still a lot of love and companionship in our marriage - just not alot of physical attraction from my side. Yep...even husbands can be 'friendzoned'. The question I continually ask myself is can I be happy going forward that I'll never again have the lust and sexual excitement that I felt with exMM and can I settle for companionship and stability, as offered by my husband? I also struggle with am I doing the right thing by my husband. He is clear that he wants me to stay - he loves me and is attracted to me, but is it fair of me to make him settle for less than he deserves? Shouldn't he have someone who loves him and puts him first... What you'll likely find is that if you start re-investing in the EMOTIONAL intimacy with your husband...it will reinforce your physical intimacy with him as well. You were attracted to your H once...enough to marry him. You need to focus on figuring out what it takes to bring that back. Marriage counseling, and other forms of couples counseling, can help you work through that and potentially improve this area in your marriage. I know that I'll still miss exMM but in time that will fade... It's time now to focus on my husband and myself. In some ways I think its actually a negative that your husband is reacting so well to all of this. You stand no risk to lose him, from the sounds of it. There's no immediate NEED to reinvest in your marriage to him...so you're much more able to focus on exOM rather than focusing on saving your marriage. The only 'pain' you suffer from this is the loss of that relationship. You're not going through all the hard work of rebuilding your marriage, re-establishing trust, you're not in danger of losing anything because of your affair. And that means that you're just that much more likely to resume the affair later, or begin another one if you have the opportunity. I wish you well.
Snowflower Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 (edited) I've never understood men who react this way, although I've heard it before. -snip- You stand no risk to lose him, from the sounds of it. There's no immediate NEED to reinvest in your marriage to him...so you're much more able to focus on exOM rather than focusing on saving your marriage. To add another thought to Owl's excellent points in his post is that perhaps why part of your attraction died for your H is because you haven't been faced (threatened?) with losing him from being in your life. It's kind of an extreme form of taking him for granted and therefore there is a nothing risked kind of approach. I'm guessing here but part of what made xMM so attractive was risk and excitement of the relationship itself. With your H, he is a foregone conclusion and even after everything that has happened, he is still there. You haven't lost him so there is no excitement? Does that make sense? I think if your H were to leave (or just generally turn into a jerk), he would suddenly appear much more attractive to you. Affairs seem to be a bit wanting what we can't have. And you definitely seem to still have your H. He is too accommodating, IMO that is for sure. Thoughts? Edited June 19, 2014 by Snowflower 1
Owl Posted June 19, 2014 Posted June 19, 2014 I like Snowflower's post. Here's a summary that might apply here. I've said it many times to men who were betrayed by their wives, and recommend that they consider this as part of their recovery process. Women cannot respect a man that they can mistreat. They can't respect a man that they can treat like a doormat. They can't respect a man that accepts disrespectful behavior/treatment. And...a woman cannot maintain romantic love for a man she can't respect. That's why so many guys find themselves friendzoned. They believe that by being the guy she can go to for anything, they'll win her heart. They don't realize that by not setting some decent boundaries in acceptable behavior...they ruin her respect for him, and therefore the chance for romantic love with her. I think that your husband's passive acceptance (and enjoyment???) of your affair is both symptom and cause of your lack of romantic feelings for him.
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