He sabotages himself.

[Leigh 87]

No he is not an incredible person, only in your mind.

 

You need to learn to want what is good for you, this man isn't. Lots of people want to smoke, want do drink, want to use drugs, want unprotected sex, want to eat carbs all day, want to drive with no seatbelt, want want want...but all those wants aren't good for us. Learn to seek the things and people that are good for you.

 

It's already not working, only you is not aware of it. You're like the wife that is being cheated on while the entire town is aware of it but she is pretending she knows nothing and everything is dandy.

 

 

 

Can Phoe please define what she ffeels constitutes as an incredible person?

 

My ex was a jerk. Yet he: immediately felt compelled to help me when we met (I have asperges syndrome) and he felt very driven to help me come out of my social shell. He always was the first person in public to help a person out if they were in trouble. He has a big heart in general.

 

He also wanted sexual variety cos I obviously wasn't enough for him. Yet he stayed with me. When any self respecting man who had high integrity would break up with a girl who he just wasn't that attracted to or into on a romantic level.

 

A person can have empathy and do many nice things yet still not be an INCREDIBLE person.

 

A truly amazing guy would get professional help if he knew his relationship was at risk due to HIS personal Iissues.

[regine_phalange]

It's nice of you to say that you want to help him. But I already think you have treated him very good and with a lot of understanding, so what else do you think you would be able to do?

 

I think you can't know what exactly he needs to feel better, because first he needs to choose that he is willing to work things out, and to choose to trust you. And be consistent with it. He needs to be able to see through his problem, and recognize his phobias on his own first. Your "job" wouldn't be to recognize them and heal them for him. You are not him. You are also only a human, outside of him. And you are not professional psychologist, which is a hard, full time job.

[somedude81]

Because I WANT to be with him. He is an incredible person.

 

 

We've all got our problems.

 

 

I just worry that if things stay like this, it won't work.

 

Yes, we've all got out problems.

 

But his problems is the fact that he's directly attacking the relationship.

 

Lets put things another way.

 

Imagine a guy at your work who is always trying to sabotage the operations. He "accidentally" breaks things, does projects wrong and every now and then really screws up and causes everybody you're working with to stay late and fix his mistakes.

 

Do you think that guy would be able to keep the job, even if he was an incredible worker most of the time?

[MissBee]

What you're saying about him makes sense.

 

Unfortunately, these subconscious beliefs, abandonment issues and attachment issues we develop from childhood aren't things that change overnight neither is it something some prince or princess riding in on a white horse can change for you. It takes admitting it and consciously working on it over time for things to change and the person with that issue has to do the work, all their partner can do is support them but not make them do anything or fix it for them. Too many people, women especially, will run themselves into the ground trying to help a man with his issues. Of course you can be supportive up to a point but if it's met with tons of resistance and it becomes damaging to you then you have to care about yourself, wish them well, and move forward, as often your investment in fixing them won't yield the returns you think it will.

 

We all have our problems but that's not really the point...dating isn't a charity and about feeling bad for people's problems. It's not about adopting a broken puppy and nursing it to health etc. Good relationships that are sustainable are about complement and both people being able to offer each other something and make each other better....not where one is dragging the other along or is their emotional punching bag. We all have our issues but good relationships include each party taking responsibility for their issue and taking control of it and not allowing it to take over the relationship. Once it is one person taking charge of the other's issue or seeming more invested in fixing it than the other person....you have a problem. I have my own issues but am finally at a place where I can own it, manage them and not make it control my relationship or be a huge burden on my partner. He can support me and do things to help me feel secure...but it's not like in the past where my insecurities and issues ran things and was overbearing. None of my partners could have fixed that (and frankly most weren't good for me).

 

I'm not saying you should immediately break up with this guy...although given all the info, I can't pretend I'm his biggest fan and can't pretend I think this is the greatest match on earth, but I think it's good that you and he at least know what's what. From here, he has to consciously work through his issues, and you have to also realize that it may not be in this relationship where he works it out. That's one truth I have learned. Relationships are teachers but sometimes being together forever is not the end goal. All my relationships taught me things and helped me to realize my issues and work on them, but they ended and in it ending is when I could grow more and practice what I learned with the new person. Of course we all want our relationships to work out esp if you have invested in a "problem person" whom you've spent lots of time agonizing over...but the truth is that sometimes your relationship isn't the one that will see the change and maybe the next person or 3 other gfs down the line will be when they're finally able to have a healthy relationship.

Edited June 10, 2014 by MissBee

[contact1]

I can now also see why moving out from her house is a big deal. She cared for him when no one else would.

 

I've had a thought about this, not bearing the whole "sabotage the relationship part" because what you said makes a lot of sense. If the real reason for him wanting to live, or have you move in there with his mother, was in fact this case, this brings up the question, would he ever really want to move out of her house? Because think about it, from re-reading your thread, you guys almost had a place and than he backed out, going back to the idea of moving in with her.

 

If he is really this dependent on her due to this trauma, he may never want to leave from her. Something to seriously consider for the future of the relationship.

[KaliLove]

Phoe, the bottom line here is that while it's easy to have sympathy for someone who has such obvious psychological trauma, and to want to be there for them and support them and help them and fix them..this will never work unless he is willing to fix it himself. You cannot fix him. You just can't. The longer you allow this to go on without him getting help, the harder it's going to be to walk away..and you will have to eventually. Things aren't going to change unless he is willing to change them. Him and only him.

[KathyM]

Every other week you come here to post a new thread about some new serious mistreatment or serious issues your boyfriend has, and people fall all over themselves trying to give you advice on ending the relationship. I'm guessing you either have a martyr complex, or are trying to stir up some attention on the internet for other reasons. If you wanted a healthy relationship, you would either realize this guy ain't it and dump him, or you would be talking to him and working out issues with him rather than complaining to strangers on the internet every other week about him.

 

 

Every other week, it's something new. Last time it was that he borrowed money from you and did not want to pay it back, so you couldn't buy food without tapping into savings. This damsel in distress routine is starting to get old. If that sounds non-empathetic on my part, maybe that's because you willing choose to stay in a dysfunctional relationship, and then complain to strangers on the internet about it on a very frequent basis.

[somedude81]

Here's what I'm really worried about.

 

Now that he's told you that he's trying to ruin the relationship, he might feel that he has a free pass to keep pushing things and see how far he can get. Eventually it may come to a point where he does something bad that really crosses a line with you which would also really hurt you.

 

To me, it looks like things are progressing down that path.

 

Reflecting back on your old threads, I can now see the various things he's done as ways to try to get you to dump him, but he's just toeing the line.

 

Honestly, it sounds exhausting to stay in a relationship with somebody who keeps testing me, trying to see how much I can put up with.

 

One little suggestion:

 

Look over your past threads. Things should be more clear to you now that you realize what is going on.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/search.php?searchid=21614461

 

If the link doesn't work, then just do a search for the threads you made.

Edited June 10, 2014 by somedude81

[whirl3daway]

Hey Phoe

 

I am a person who has suffered significant emotional trauma in my life. I have attachment and abandonment issues as well. I have often done the same thing your boyfriend is doing - test my partner, push them away and then pull back, say hurtful things just to get a rise out of them.

 

This is not a quirk - it is a legitimate personality disorder. It may be PTSD, it may even be borderline personality disorder. In fact, judging from your boyfriend's past, and the way he treats you, I would say it is very likely that he has male BPD. BPD is based upon unhealthy and broken attachments from childhood.

 

Probably at the very root of his problems is a severe inability to love himself, and he might feel as though he is not worthy of a "good" partner, or true love. He probably feels that since his mother was able to abandon him, anyone is able to abandon him. This is NOT something you can "love" enough to fix. This is something that is broken inside him, and will remain broken. You remember how he tried to get you to marry him ASAP? It's because he's terrified of losing you. He's terrified of being alone now that he knows he has you.

 

It is not something that just gets better, or goes away if the person is in denial or unwilling to fix it. I have been in therapy for years, and am only now starting to feel better. It has taken a lot of self-reflection, coming to terms with harsh truths, and unhappiness to become the person I am now.

 

Your boyfriend CAN heal from these wounds... but it will require a lot of work on his part. It will be frustrating for you, and it already has been. I'm here to tell you that I understand why you stay - but it will only be one thing after another unless you insist that he starts to take care of his emotional health.

 

There are some books that you should read: "Walking on Eggshells", "I Hate you, Don't Leave me" and "The Journey from Abandonment to Healing" have all been very helpful to me.

 

Good luck. xox.

 

edit:

It is worth noting that I have the tendency to draw codependent types towards me. Something about me inspires people to want to "help fix" me. I hesitantly suggest that you look inward to see if this is something that rings true to you.

Edited June 10, 2014 by whirl3daway

[Quiet Storm]

I have many dysfunctional people in my family. When I was in my late teens, I began educating myself. I learned about Family of Origin issues, trauma from neglect, abuse & molestation, triangulation, personality disorders, etc. I thought "Now I know why they are like this. I understand now. They aren't doing this to hurt me. They just don't know any other way to be". I sympathized with them, and felt like I had the answers. I finally understood! I was relieved.

 

I think in my naïve mind, I thought that because I knew the WHY of it all, that it would be the first step to resolution. Wrong!

 

Twenty years later, and after a lot of drama, heartache and pain, I realize that the WHY was not a solution... it's simply an explanation.

 

Knowing why didn't change their behavior. It didn't make it less hurtful. They were still emotionally unstable. They were still irresponsible and undependable. They were still moody and unpredictable. They still let me down OVER and OVER again.

 

I was perpetually disappointed. I realized the only way to continue a relationship with them, was to have NO EXPECTATIONS whatsoever. This way I could protect myself from the pain of disappointment.

 

Relationships, whether it is romantic or family, are a two way street. It gets really old when you are the only one holding it together, when you are hurt and upset on a regular basis. When you want to resolve things, and they just don't care. I would think about the explanations, the WHYs in my head, as a way to lessen the pain. "They are only doing ____ because of ____. It's not really their fault they are like this."

 

But eventually, you just get sick of it. The reasons don't matter anymore, because it becomes about protecting yourself. It's always all about them. It becomes exhausting and fruitless.

 

What kind of life do you want? What kind of life will you have with this man?

 

This guy knows he is not good for you, and he's trying to show you that. He's giving you clues that might as well say "Phoe, I'm a messed up person. I'm not going to change. This is the way I am. This is how your life is going to be, if you stay with me." You say he's sabotaging himself, but he is already broken & damaged. You can't help him, and he knows that, Phoe. He is just doing what he always does, and you understanding and empathizing isn't going to change that. I'm so sorry, I know you want this to work so badly, but he is not the guy for you, Phoe. He is only going to bring you down.

[Gaeta]

Phoe, don't you think you sabotage yourself as well?

 

Eventually, this guy here, will leave you. It's just a matter of time. He left them all, and his little confidence in you that he's always sabotaging his relationships is him warning you it's coming your way. You're next.

[KathyM]

Personality Test

 

 

Here's a little description about martyr complex. It sounds very similar to the OP's situation.

[Grumpybutfun]

Phoe, my wife grew up in extreme neglect and severe child abuse. We knew the only way we could have a healthy, happy life together was if she got the help she needed professionally and I supported her but placed boundaries. She went to therapy, read every book she could find, did a lot of work to overcome, writing down her triggers and overcoming using alcohol as a coping mechanism. I held a hard line, but was there when she needed me, not taking any of the extraneous behavioral issues on myself, not accepting any bad behaviors, for me it was a dealbreaker for marriage and she knew this so she fixed it. She did the work because she knew she was worth a happy life and while it still rears its head occasionally, very rarely now actually, she deals with it with my support and understanding. It was up to her to heal herself and she did it. I knew I couldn't do the work for her. I knew I couldn't heal her or make it better or fix it for her.

He has to do the work, fix his issues, get professional help and stop letting his insecurities and sabotage affect you who had nothing to do with his past or other women in his life. Otherwise, this relationship will be a lesson in boundaries, self protection and unkindness that you do NOT want to learn. Talk to him and let him know he needs help, he must get help or you can't continue to be on the receiving end of his emotional problems. Those who were abused can only become abusers if their loved ones allow it, don't allow it. He gets help or you move on.

Best of luck, I know how hard this is when you love someone,

Grumps

[ChooseTruth]

I'm not saying you are wrong about his issues, etc, but I wanted to make a point about you asking "Is that a word?". If you want to give the impression that you have confidence in his vocabulary, you would ask, "What does ___ mean?" Then he probably would be complimented instead of insulted. If he is unsure of the word then he could admit it of his own accord. I guess the lesson is to check your assumptions before you ask a question? "Why are you such an idiot?" <- not so good even though you are "just asking". "What do you mean by ___?" is better.

 

Personally I think most people would be a little offput if someone asked "Is that a word?" when in the middle of a discussion (depending on the tone of voice) I'll admit I've made fun of my ex for what I call "Bushisms" but in those cases I was very sure I knew the word she actually meant ^^ We both usually had a good laugh when it happened, I think the tone of voice matters a lot.

[pteromom]

 

But I can't handle the push and pull over and over. That won't work at all. Even if he's not doing it intentionally. He can't just revert to his coping mechanism of pushing, turning himself off emotionally, and hiding. I won't spend my life doing that.

 

That is all he knows how to do though. The only way it can change is if he learns new ways to cope and overcome issues... and the only way that will happen is with professional help.

[beach]

Yup. It all makes sense.

 

 

There he was acting wonderful most of the time, then out of nowhere, does something very bizarre or hurtful, and I had to wonder WHY he was acting this way, out of left field.

 

 

Earlier today he said he feels like a failure, like he's not good enough.

 

 

He admits that he is inadvertently pushing me away, and then he stops and realizes that he's doing so, and quickly apologizes.

 

 

But I can't handle the push and pull over and over. That won't work at all. Even if he's not doing it intentionally. He can't just revert to his coping mechanism of pushing, turning himself off emotionally, and hiding. I won't spend my life doing that.

 

 

He may very well use this "coping method" throughout his whole life!

 

It's what he knows. You can't make him change it... He would need to have MAJOR reasons for wanting to change it FOR himself.

 

Since he doesn't seem like he needs to change it - it's likely to stay this way.

 

Since it's not a method that works for you - it may be less painful to end it now rather than go through 20 or more years of a method that just doesn't work for you.

 

It's his family of origin. Changing his FOO takes a great deal of UNLEARNING his ENTIRE method of participating within relationships.

 

If it doesn't work for you - it's best to end it knowing full well you two aren't very well matched.

[pteromom]

Talk to him and let him know he needs help, he must get help or you can't continue to be on the receiving end of his emotional problems.

 

THIS.

 

Know that if you say this to him, and if he cares about you as much as you care about him, that he will gladly do this to continue to be with you.

 

There is so much good advice and wisdom in this entire thread. Phoe, read what everyone is saying, and consider it all with no defensiveness.

 

Personally, I believe this guy isn't for you. You are so smart and beautiful and sexy, and everything a guy would dream of. You can hold out for excellence, and you have what it takes to create the most amazing relationship ever - with the right guy. This guy isn't him.

[somedude81]

to see if I'm really willing to put up with ridiculousness, for the sake of being with him.

Is that something that you've actually told him?

 

Why?

 

What is so amazing about him that you are willing to put up with his behavior over and over?

 

He's basically saying, "If you want to date me, you have to put up with my bullsh*t."

 

You know what the reminds me of? This.

 

“I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.” - Marilyn Monroe

 

I don't know if there's anything I can do to help him move past that and trust in me, or whether he's just gonna continue believing I'm destined to crush his heart, until I finally can't take the sabotage, and do crush him.

Why do you believe that it's you who is going to crush his heart, and not the other way around?

 

Phoe, lets say he does the ultimate sabotage and cheats on you. Then rightfully so you break up with him. Do you feel that you would have crushed his heart by dumping him?

[Daisy-oliviaWentcher]

Has he got borderline personality disorder?Sounds like it as how you've described. Is he seeing a counsellor/ therapist? Is he taking medication? Sounds like his past experiences were painful and traumatic & he would benefit from sitting down with someone to really seek some guidance. However, this is only good if he sits down with someone and really talks it through and is committed to healing. You cannot fix him, perhaps you both know it, but he's obviously in a bit of contention. You can either point him in the right direction and then walk out or stay and get seriously sapped of energy and resource. Or walk out.

 

Up to you my love, but be careful with your heart, sounds like you've put up with a lot thus far any way.

[Ruby Slippers]

These emotional injuries from childhood can take years, decades, even a lifetime to resolve. I say this as a person in my late 30s still working on my own emotional injuries from childhood. I've made a lot of progress with counseling and personal development, but I'm still not totally out of the woods.

 

You and your boyfriend are in your mid-20s, yes? I was almost in denial of my family of origin issues for most of my 20s. It wasn't until yet another failed relationship in my early 30s that I made the effort to really start getting to the bottom of them.

 

So what you have dealt with so far is what you will continue to deal with for a long time, if you stay with him. He knows you can find a much more stable man who can make you happier than he can - but I think he also knows that you're a softie who will stay if he just pulls the right heartstrings.

 

You're going to have to figure out if you can live like this or not.

[laurelin]

I know what this kind of relationship is like and I know how frustrating it is to have to listen to everyone around you badmouth him and tell you to have more respect for yourself, etc. It's degrading and hurtful to hear when you're working so hard to do things right by someone you love and who, despite his painful past, has been brave enough to admit to having strong feelings for you.

 

I dated a man just like this...he was also abandoned by his mother and had a history of sabotaging relationships. He was even in therapy. He said the exact same things to me that your boyfriend is saying to you and I don't doubt that he meant them. I was understanding when he'd pull away, forgiving when he'd get angry or make a nasty comment, I gave him all the reassurance and unconditional love I could possibly give. It was his own self-worth that caught up to him in the end. He did not believe he was worthy and so he intentionally made himself unworthy and I had no other choice than to end the relationship and set him free.

 

I wish I could tell you it that it woke him up and inspired him to commit to change, but it didn't. I haven't heard from him since the day I let him go. But, I don't think it's because he's a jerk or because I never meant anything to him. It's because he didn't have the capability to fully love and be loved. He'd never experienced it so love didn't fill him with comfort and security. It filled him with doubt and fear.

 

If your boyfriend is committed to figuring all of this out and getting through his own pain to make a relationship work with you, I'd recommend the two of you reading "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix. There's also a book called "He's Scared, She's Scared" by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol that probably won't make you feel incredibly confident about the whole situation, but it will provide some insight into what's going on with him (and, in turn, you).

[veggirl]

I think this guy knows he just gave himself carte blanche to do whatever he wants. Phoe, is there anything you won't make an excuse about for this guy? Do you think that he has suffered for 25 years but you'll fix him? Or is he ACTUALLY going to take action and fix himself? IMO it sounds like "hey I know I'm ****ty, but this is why!" and then you are like "oh that's so sad! No worries, you can't help it!" but he CAN help it. He just isn't!

[veggirl]

Have you ever heard of relationship recycling?

Relationship Recycling is when a lot of bad things happen in a relationship but nothing worthy enough to warrant an official breakup. This is a cycle of repeated grievances over, and over, and over without anything being resolved. The end result is either a lot of bad moments in a relationship or couples constantly wanting to break up and then come back together.

When is this unhealthy?

After serious transgressions remain unresolved. When multiple problems like your own exist, the conventional relationship expectations are thrown out the window. Couples often hit a road block at some point, possibly take a break from the relationship until their differences can be addressed, and then they resume together. Learning to deal with all the bad moments in your relationship by dismissing your own emotions rather than address them is unhealthy by definition.

Why do people get caught in these cycles?

Are you fearful of the next step? (financial burdens, the prospects of having to date again, etc)

Are you afraid to be alone?

Do you believe you won't find anyone as good as him?

.

 

Phoe, I c/p this from another thread. I thought of you even before I saw you posted your thread. I think it applies.

[MissBee]

I know what this kind of relationship is like and I know how frustrating it is to have to listen to everyone around you badmouth him and tell you to have more respect for yourself, etc. It's degrading and hurtful to hear when you're working so hard to do things right by someone you love and who, despite his painful past, has been brave enough to admit to having strong feelings for you.

 

I dated a man just like this...he was also abandoned by his mother and had a history of sabotaging relationships. He was even in therapy. He said the exact same things to me that your boyfriend is saying to you and I don't doubt that he meant them. I was understanding when he'd pull away, forgiving when he'd get angry or make a nasty comment, I gave him all the reassurance and unconditional love I could possibly give. It was his own self-worth that caught up to him in the end. He did not believe he was worthy and so he intentionally made himself unworthy and I had no other choice than to end the relationship and set him free.

 

I wish I could tell you it that it woke him up and inspired him to commit to change, but it didn't. I haven't heard from him since the day I let him go. But, I don't think it's because he's a jerk or because I never meant anything to him. It's because he didn't have the capability to fully love and be loved. He'd never experienced it so love didn't fill him with comfort and security. It filled him with doubt and fear.

 

If your boyfriend is committed to figuring all of this out and getting through his own pain to make a relationship work with you, I'd recommend the two of you reading "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix. There's also a book called "He's Scared, She's Scared" by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol that probably won't make you feel incredibly confident about the whole situation, but it will provide some insight into what's going on with him (and, in turn, you).

 

Such a profound post!

[Els]

It's all well and good that he has reached this epiphany, but what is he going to DO about it, Phoe?

 

Words without action are meaningless.