Infidelity & the contradiction of fidelity in an affair.

[fellini]

What seems to be missing from the discourse is the non-rational, not the rational. The WS lives in such a chemical high from the emotional connections she/he is getting from the AP, that there is no need to "explain" anything.

 

The feeling of being "in love" is in itself sufficient rationalisation that the Affair is REAL and very necessary. The augmented emotional state produced by the AP and the diminished love a WS feels for his/her BS justifies and clarifies perfectly that in fact, s/he is "doing the right thing" by pursuing it.

 

As the song goes:

If loving you is wrong, I don't wanna be right

If being right means being without you

I'd rather live a wrong doing life

 

From Michelle Langley, whom I think has some of the best writing on women's infidelity, the WS simply refuses to choose, because to do so would mean that SOMEONE has to fall, and that choice cannot be made. So women prefer to live in limbo, and eventually that they are in limbo is because they cannot choose, rather than what it is: it is the refusal to choose keeps them in limbo.

 

 

 

We are talking about contradictions but i was trying to convey that things get rationalized, thus the steps to the affair, going into the affair but take what was once rationalized or could perhaps be better explained vs what happens when the WS wants exclusivity for the ap, i am lost as to how that gets rationalized.

Edited June 10, 2014 by fellini

[Mycatsnuggles]

Fellini,

 

I've read the Langley books and many parts of it related well to my situation. Part of it may answer Astrieds (sp) question. Langley speaks of the conflict a woman experiences when she begins to desire someone else. "The good girl" syndrome. I definitely related to this portion of the book. I wanted to explore the feelings which were developing but had lived my life as a good girl. Someone who no one including myself could imagine having an affair. I remember making the decision I told myself to close my eyes and jump. If I had thought logically I never would have met him that second time. I knew the attraction was there.

 

Now to the question of why insist on his fidelity with me when he was cheating on his wife. I was a "good girl" in a relationship not a whore searching for sex. Does this explain it better? We had dual relationships that occurred, he expected my commitment as much as I did of him.

 

He also expressed the desire that he was never a player and wanted a committed affair partner. Curious do men have a comparable desire to not be thought of as a player or male whore? Basically that the equivalent of the GGS.

[fellini]

Fellini,

 

I've read the Langley books and many parts of it related well to my situation. Part of it may answer Astrieds (sp) question. Langley speaks of the conflict a woman experiences when she begins to desire someone else. "The good girl" syndrome. I definitely related to this portion of the book. I wanted to explore the feelings which were developing but had lived my life as a good girl. Someone who no one including myself could imagine having an affair. I remember making the decision I told myself to close my eyes and jump. If I had thought logically I never would have met him that second time. I knew the attraction was there.

 

Now to the question of why insist on his fidelity with me when he was cheating on his wife. I was a "good girl" in a relationship not a whore searching for sex. Does this explain it better? We had dual relationships that occurred, he expected my commitment as much as I did of him.

 

He also expressed the desire that he was never a player and wanted a committed affair partner. Curious do men have a comparable desire to not be thought of as a player or male whore? Basically that the equivalent of the GGS.

 

I think men have never had to address themselves as "whores" because their success in that area has been deemed to be a show of success, not distress.

 

Obviously yet another contradiction we have all learned about, in fact, internalised, and seems NOT to bother us (men). That we are champions for bedding women, and the bigger prize are the younger, and the virgins. Yet when we decide to "grow up" and settle down, we want our women to be "good girls". Now anyone who can do the math knows that this is an impossible contradiction given that the world is populated with 50% men and 50% women... This is essentially the theme of Leonard Cohen's famous novel "The Favourite Game (the game being the soldier and the whore).

 

Again, I'm more convinced the whole issue falls on the differences between the WS who lives through their contradiction, and the desire of the BS to understand, to somehow make sense of the contradiction between the truth of being in two relationships. Unless we have been there, it's a very difficult task indeed to get our heads around how that works for the WS.

 

We grasp for the certainty that surely there could only be ONE, yet there was this other, this alien invader. How to reconcile the ONE with the TWO? It's very painful. It's disturbing. I think it takes an enormous effort. We keep coming back to wanting a decision to be made: who did you love the most? / who do you love the most? did you love me when you loved him? Did you think of me when you were with him? ... and I think those questions cannot be answered faithfully if the WS is to be honest about a specific moment in her life.

 

Love is not entirely and only enacted when we make love. Men know this intimately: they know they can be making love to a woman, and yet be in love with another. We only need to remind ourselves this when the shoe is on the other foot and we question our WS's capacities to do the same.

 

This is why I reject the notion that reconciliation is impossible that is proposed here by many. Reconciliation requires, from what I have gone through, a rethinking or re-imagining of how things work. A mental and emotional shift. A leap of faith to just move forward.

Edited June 10, 2014 by fellini

[Mycatsnuggles]

Fellini,

 

your wife is a very lucky women.

[dichotomy]

Fellini,

 

Your posts are insightful. Always reminds me of the talks I used to have with my late father (a professor) on truth, perceptions, contradictions..... and dichotomies.

 

thank you.

Edited June 10, 2014 by dichotomy

[atreides]

Fellini,

 

I remember making the decision I told myself to close my eyes and jump. If I had thought logically I never would have met him that second time. I knew the attraction was there. ...

 

Now to the question of why insist on his fidelity with me when he was cheating on his wife. I was a "good girl" in a relationship not a whore searching for sex. Does this explain it better?

 

 

Thank you for this, thank you, thank you.

 

So you knew you liked what was in front of you and at the point of jumping, i guess to say crudely is that too much had built up to that moment that the desire to try outweighed the consequences?

 

Your second part is so clear... it was not about your H or your relationships and sorting which was which but how you perceived yourself, it was about avoiding the "slut/whore" label if you will and setting a "standard" in you mind that kept you as the "good girl"

 

Thanks for that, it greatly helps put some order to what i was seeking, something outside the contradiction of exclusivity but more so inline with the original behavior of having the affair in the first place, being centered around you.

 

Thanks for sharing

[atreides]

 

Love is not entirely and only enacted when we make love. Men know this intimately: they know they can be making love to a woman, and yet be in love with another. We only need to remind ourselves this when the shoe is on the other foot and we question our WS's capacities to do the same.

 

 

I would add though, for me it is not about men or women or which shoe but the contradiction itself, clearly there are women who cheat very similar to what you defined as what a man can do. Actually even a recent example her on LS with a very calculating female. I have also read posts here on LS where men say the same thing, "i love my AP but..."

[Trustnoone]

Road

 

YES

 

But it is important to understand that they are innocent in all the turmoil caused by infidelity. They are my life and the reason I never took action on ending my life for 13 months. Had MC tonight and the therapist has been absolutely incredible. Therapist has helped me move forward, even at times I felt I had no fight left in me. As for the WW she has been fighting so hard to ensure every need of mine is met. I honestly thought she would have left by now. Every day WW tries harder than the day before. I give her credit, I think I would have said game over if I were in her shoes.

[Popsicle]

What my wife did during the affair was bad enough, but to have to sit and watch her fall apart because it was over would be too much for me. How dare you claim love for me while grieving and pining for him. Not to mention even more humiliation and lack of respect to openly break down in front of me. I'm not that understanding.

 

Leave her.

[DKT3]

Leave her.

 

I did. However she never showed any displays of morning the lose of AP. In part because, as I later discovered, she was still in contact with him and had only stopped the physical contact. They would talk on her work land line. By the time she went total NC (another 9 months) I no longer cared and has stopped paying attention. After six months or so I detached, did the 180 (before I knew what it was) and started looking for the next off ramp. Fear of losing daily contact with the kids kept me around another 8 months.

 

Final straw was I asked her one last time about the A, she lied and said I was wanting her to give me a reason to leave. No, I wanted a reason to stay, my emotional and mental being had already left. I day dreamed about being single and what calm that thought would bring me.

 

We are together NOW, living more openly and honestly then we ever have. Its hard hearing her true thoughts at times, but it allows me the chance to address the issues she has with me. Yet its nice know she no longer fears sharing her true feelings.

 

Well on getting off track so I'm going to stop.

[fellini]

I would add though, for me it is not about men or women or which shoe but the contradiction itself, clearly there are women who cheat very similar to what you defined as what a man can do. Actually even a recent example her on LS with a very calculating female. I have also read posts here on LS where men say the same thing, "i love my AP but..."

 

I agree. I generally don't distinguish between genders, but the large majority of jaded BS's here who promote "she cheated, it's over" are in fact, men. And the stories about reconciliation are NOT gendered (both BW's and BH's tend to recount the same history and process trying to reconcile.)

 

What's clear is there is a stereotype that men can compartmentalize their affairs (it's just sex) and women "cannot" or "don't" (that they develop strong E attachments through the physical).

 

WH's go running back to their wives begging forgiveness, convinced they still loved them, always loved them, never stopped loving them.

 

But it's no surprise to see that this does not hold water for a type of BH who cannot imagine / will not tolerate the same from his WW.

 

But this also extends to what is clearly strange here in Ls: BH's telling ME a fellow BS that I am WRONG or in DENIAL or DECEIVED if I think that my WS still loves me, including being told that I DESERVED to be cheated on because I defend reconciliation or if I am reluctant to adopt "once a cheater always a cheater" posture towards all WS's

 

The sheer volume of contradiction in LS suggests that the only way to make sense of it is to recognise that as human beings we live in and reproduce our contradictions, even if we are incapable of seeing them.

 

It seems to me that the impossible strategy faced with this is to try and sort it out, or re contextualise it, in order to make sense of it. We simply have to embrace moral and emotional contradiction as a strategy of survival rather than try to hold it up to scrutiny and make it disappear with magic acts of deconstruction.

Edited June 11, 2014 by fellini

[atreides]

I agree. I generally don't distinguish between genders, but the large majority of jaded BS's here who promote "she cheated, it's over" are in fact, men. And the stories about reconciliation are NOT gendered (both BW's and BH's tend to recount the same history and process trying to reconcile.)

 

What's clear is there is a stereotype that men can compartmentalize their affairs (it's just sex) and women "cannot" or "don't" (that they develop strong E attachments through the physical).

 

WH's go running back to their wives begging forgiveness, convinced they still loved them, always loved them, never stopped loving them.

 

But it's no surprise to see that this does not hold water for a type of BH who cannot imagine / will not tolerate the same from his WW.

 

But this also extends to what is clearly strange here in Ls: BH's telling ME a fellow BS that I am WRONG or in DENIAL or DECEIVED if I think that my WS still loves me, including being told that I DESERVED to be cheated on because I defend reconciliation or if I am reluctant to adopt "once a cheater always a cheater" posture towards all WS's

 

The sheer volume of contradiction in LS suggests that the only way to make sense of it is to recognise that as human beings we live in and reproduce our contradictions, even if we are incapable of seeing them.

 

It seems to me that the impossible strategy faced with this is to try and sort it out, or re contextualise it, in order to make sense of it. We simply have to embrace moral and emotional contradiction as a strategy of survival rather than try to hold it up to scrutiny and make it disappear with magic acts of deconstruction.

 

Wow, sorry to hear that but you are right as i have read that before and i have too even though my wife did not have an affair or "cheat" per say, you can read my thread if you wish. But back to what i was saying is that, there are a few here who are just hardline against R no matter what and that cheaters need to be punished to the point of no return. Ironically 2 of them have been banned.

 

I do think part of the contradiction is that we let our bias get in the way of what we know to be but refuse to see it, like an affair i suppose . The bias is much more fun for some because trying to break things down and understanding is too boring and just "vanilla sex"

 

thanks for your insight.

[Bittersweetie]

It sounded so absurd as I could not get past the contradiction of while being unfaithful, one expects faithfulness from another who is unfaithful themselves as in exclusivity "except for the affair partner's spouse" which was another head shaker for me to hear.

 

When I first met xOM, I made the decision to risk everything to spend time with him. We had a "connection" and I thought he could possibly be my "soulmate." I assumed that since he was risking things to be with me, he felt the same. We were both risking everything because our relationship was so, so special.

 

Then, he emails me to tell me he decided to go be with another girlfriend. I was devastated, angry, all of it. The thing was, if he had said "I'm staying with my wife," I would've been upset but understood, since I was married too. But another girlfriend? That means things weren't as special as I thought. I wasn't the one worth risking things over.

 

So maybe that's why APs get so upset by additional APs? Because one thinks they are worth risking it all for...but really, they're not that special.

[Mycatsnuggles]

Fellini,

 

Beginning to wish I didn't respond to this post. The whole GGS has now taken over my thought process and I feel like an unpaid whore for 3 yrs. wow not good.

 

I really do think people can reconcile if they are willing to move beyond the affair. Let it go and move forward with your relationship. Actually make it a brand new.

 

 

Below a quote from a marriage counseling class we did together:

 

Here lies an unfortunate irony. People wait years

and years for their spouse to wake up and change

their ways. Then when they finally do it, they're

told it's too late.

 

I understand why someone would feel, after being

cheated on, for example, that "it's too late."

But the fact of the matter is that they're about

to walk away from a person who is FINALLY

prepared to be a wonderful loving spouse.

 

In my experience, it's these people, people who

have made serious mistakes, people who have had

the harshest wake up calls, who become the BEST

spouses and are capable, more than anyone else,

of forging the MOST fulfilling relationships.

 

Do you see the irony here?

 

The mistakes that ruin relationships are those

that transform the sinners into people capable of

the most outstanding relationships. The

unfortunate thing for the victim is that they

don't know how to heal from the hurt that would

enable them to reap the benefit of their ordeal.

 

So the roles become reversed. The person who was

ruining the relationship stands ready to

transform it; while the person who wanted to work

on the relationship all along becomes the cog in

the wheel that inhibits true love.

 

In other words, the woman above has a choice. If

she lets her husband go, he'll most likely fall

in love with another woman and treat her like a

queen. He'll be the husband to his new wife that

the woman above always wanted him to be to her.

I've seen it happen too often. Some lucky woman

owes a poor victim a lot of gratitude. But this

woman has another option. She could forgive her

husband and become that lucky woman!

Mort Fertel

 

Best wishes.

[fellini]

Ah! Mort Fertel. I know his words well.

 

Yes, I argued this once in here and the abuse was more than I could take!

Hang in there. Your past does not define you. Your marriage does not define you. You define you.

 

Fellini,

 

Beginning to wish I didn't respond to this post. The whole GGS has now taken over my thought process and I feel like an unpaid whore for 3 yrs. wow not good.

 

I really do think people can reconcile if they are willing to move beyond the affair. Let it go and move forward with your relationship. Actually make it a brand new.

 

 

Below a quote from a marriage counseling class we did together:

 

Here lies an unfortunate irony. People wait years

and years for their spouse to wake up and change

their ways. Then when they finally do it, they're

told it's too late.

 

I understand why someone would feel, after being

cheated on, for example, that "it's too late."

But the fact of the matter is that they're about

to walk away from a person who is FINALLY

prepared to be a wonderful loving spouse.

 

In my experience, it's these people, people who

have made serious mistakes, people who have had

the harshest wake up calls, who become the BEST

spouses and are capable, more than anyone else,

of forging the MOST fulfilling relationships.

 

Do you see the irony here?

 

The mistakes that ruin relationships are those

that transform the sinners into people capable of

the most outstanding relationships. The

unfortunate thing for the victim is that they

don't know how to heal from the hurt that would

enable them to reap the benefit of their ordeal.

 

So the roles become reversed. The person who was

ruining the relationship stands ready to

transform it; while the person who wanted to work

on the relationship all along becomes the cog in

the wheel that inhibits true love.

 

In other words, the woman above has a choice. If

she lets her husband go, he'll most likely fall

in love with another woman and treat her like a

queen. He'll be the husband to his new wife that

the woman above always wanted him to be to her.

I've seen it happen too often. Some lucky woman

owes a poor victim a lot of gratitude. But this

woman has another option. She could forgive her

husband and become that lucky woman!

Mort Fertel

 

Best wishes.

[fellini]

Wow, sorry to hear that but you are right as i have read that before and i have too even though my wife did not have an affair or "cheat" per say, you can read my thread if you wish. But back to what i was saying is that, there are a few here who are just hardline against R no matter what and that cheaters need to be punished to the point of no return. Ironically 2 of them have been banned.

thanks for your insight.

 

The contradiction is that some people not only believe that their cheaters need to be punished, but all cheaters, my cheater. And the argument is that I will never be happy unless I leave my 'cheatin' wife. ... but they don't impress me as having got past their own A's so I am wondering what it is they think I'm going to achieve following their advice! Now I agree that some people need to walk the walk of divorce or separation, not talk the talk of reconciliation but surely that is ENTIRELY a personal decision that cannot be canned into a template by anyone!

 

No one can help me decide who to marry, and no one can tell me who I have to leave. Although it seems so self evident saying that, in here...

[HereNorThere]

I think that OP doesn't understand that APs are special.

 

Nah, you just have to look at who is making the choice about trust. You've either got two cheaters or a cheater and a person who would be with one. In most cases, neither one really knows what a healthy relationship looks like in the first place.

 

I don't think cheaters should be punished, just not in committed relationships with good people.

[alwayshere]

The contradiction is that some people not only believe that their cheaters need to be punished, but all cheaters, my cheater. And the argument is that I will never be happy unless I leave my 'cheatin' wife. ... but they don't impress me as having got past their own A's so I am wondering what it is they think I'm going to achieve following their advice! Now I agree that some people need to walk the walk of divorce or separation, not talk the talk of reconciliation but surely that is ENTIRELY a personal decision that cannot be canned into a template by anyone!

 

No one can help me decide who to marry, and no one can tell me who I have to leave. Although it seems so self evident saying that, in here...

 

You are my new hero

[Artie Lang]

My exMM and I also agreed upon an exclusive affair.

 

oh, brother.