leics Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 Hi All, I am in need of some advice, sorry this is quite long but I need to get across as much information I can as to how I feel. My wife and I have been married for 6 years, and we have 2 children. She was my first and only girlfriend, we met in our teens through my sister, and got married in our late 20's. However, things aren't as they used to be, and as I'll get to explaining below, there is now someone else possibly on the scene. Firstly are the constant moods, she's just always shouting. She seems to have no patience with the kids - she won't harm them physically, but she does shout a lot, rather than just telling them not to do something. I ask her not to shout so much, everyone in the damn street can hear her, but it makes no difference. She never used to be like that, but for several years now she's been doing it, and not only does it concern me in regards to what it must be like for the kids, it is quite embarrassing, and also very depressing. There is also a lack of sexual relations. After we moved in together it slowed, then we had our first child it slowed some more, we had our second child (4 years ago), it virtually stopped altogether (twice in a month is a very good month). It seems like she never actually wants to have sex. I try being romantic, she pushes me away. I sit next to her on the sofa to watch a film, she fidgets loads, says she's uncomfortable, and I end up sitting on the other sofa. The only time we do have sex is when I've got really frustrated about the constant knock backs, huff and puff a bit, and then a couple of nights later she pretends to be interested but just seems to lie there wanting it to be over ASAP. In fact, it usually starts with her saying "are you coming up to bed then", which is hardly romantic. It then makes me feel bad because I feel like she feels forced into it. But at the same time I feel bad because I wonder why she never seems to want sex. I've tried talking to her so many times, but she always just says "oh not this again" and turns away, she simply won't talk about it. As well as all of the above there is the laziness. I go out to work 5 days per week, I work hard to keep a roof over our heads, food coming in, a car, etc. etc. She opted to be a stay at home mother, which I fully supported, so I had to work harder to ensure a single income covered us. However, housework just doesn't seem to get done. I get home to piles of dirty dishes. Often I find I've got no clean shirts for work. The whole house is in a mess. I try to talk to her about it and explain that I can't be going out to work then coming home and doing everything here as well, but she just starts crying and says the same as above - "not this again, you're always moaning at me". I just cannot speak to her about anything, no matter how hard I try. I'm not always moaning at her by the way, I actually think I'm very patient but just get frustrated after several months of this and finally say something. I do help out around the house. I'm not the sort of guy who thinks that the woman should be chained to the kitchen or should be looking after the kids 24/7, I do my bit around the house, and do my fair share with looking after the kids. However, I also don't think I should be going out to work whilst she sits on Facebook throughout the day. There are also other small, and probably stupid, things that wind me up, but certainly aren't the biggest issues. Just silly things like burping loudly in the garden and giggling about it when we eat outside (hardly a great example to the kids), and shouting things out that neighbours really don't need to know about (such as our financial situation or just other normally private things). She seems to have absolutely no pride (or maybe I just care too much about what other people think). Now there is an additional complexity added to the situation. For the past few months I've been working closely alongside a girl from another department. We get on really well as friends/colleagues, but I've been noticing signs for a while that she might like me as more than this. When she comes to see me (about work) she's been sitting closer and closer to me. She started putting her hand on my arm and shoulder occasionally whilst talking to me, and pressing her legs against mine. She smiles a lot when talking to me, and seems to find any reason to come and see me. She tells me secrets which she won't tell anyone else (whispering a lot, which results in suspicious looks from other colleagues), and asks me a lot about my family. However, at the same time, I'm over 10 years older than her, and can't see why she would want me when there are so many younger guys she could get with. The thing is, although I think I might be reading too much into this, I feel that I'm really falling for her. I can't stop thinking about her, and haven't been able to for months. She's quiet, intelligent, loves kids, is great looking, just perfect really. I don't want to hurt my wife, and certainly don't want to hurt the kids, they've done nothing to deserve it. I've considered moving jobs to remove myself from the situation, and did have some interviews but nothing came of them, and besides I'm really enjoying my job (not just because of working with this colleague). As I mentioned above, I've tried talking to my wife to find out what the issue is, but she just won't talk about anything, she doesn't see that there is an issue. She doesn't seem to care about how it’s affecting me - I've tried explaining that it makes me feel bad about myself that she doesn't seem to want to be close to me, but I just get the usual "not this again" answer. I try explaining how her shouting all the time makes me feel, and how it could affect the kids, but it makes no difference. To my shame I said to her a few weeks ago "I think I'm going to have to leave you" to try and get a reaction from her, after she had been shouting and yelling at the kids around a park, but I didn't really get a reaction. I was just so frustrated, embarrassed, and at the end of my tether. I just don't know what to do. I haven't made any moves on the girl at work, and won't either (I've never been one for making the first move, which is probably why I've never had another girlfriend other than my wife). However, I'm concerned about whether I could resist if she made her feelings clear to me. If I am right in thinking she might be interested in me, then I think the only reason she hasn't made a move is due to my marriage and the kids, as I said above she asks about them a lot, but I got a feeling towards the end of last week that she wanted to, particularly at the point when sat next to me she almost leaned her head on my shoulder (I'm not sure what she was doing, she may have been trying to look at something on my other computer monitor). Although I have a responsibility to the kids, and to our marriage, I can't help thinking that we have one shot at this life, and if I'm really unhappy but have a chance at happiness I should go for it. But then what about the kids’ happiness - their happiness is more important than mine. Our youngest is a real daddies girl, she jumps up and down when I get home from work and starts giggling and hugging me. They both have to wave me off to work (or even if I'm just going to the shop). I just can't imagine walking out on them, but I'm just so unhappy with my marriage and feel I can't put up with 5 more years of this, never mind decades. I could wait until the kids are grown up, but might I have missed out on the possible "love of my life"? Sorry, I've rambled a bit here, but what would you advise I do? I expect I'll be told to work more on my relationship, and this is probably correct, but what more can I do if she won't talk to me and just turns away? Should I stay unhappy with the marriage for the sake of the kids? Should I make it clear I'm considering leaving her if she refuses to talk? I have to admit that I can't think that I've ever felt about my wife the way I feel about this other girl, however, I would rather work on my marriage if there is a chance of getting it back on track, particularly for the sake of the kids. However, I can't think how I can do this when I can't even talk to her. I'd really appreciate any advice, even if its to tell me what a bad husband/father I am for allowing myself to fall for this other girl in the way I have.
gettingstronger Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 Hello and welcome to life with two toddlers-being a stay at home Mom was the hardest job I ever had-being the sole breadwinner was the hardest job my husband ever had-its called life and its stressful- Talk to your wife-calmly and without blame- see if the two of you can figure out how to make each others lives easier OR back out and leave your wife for your AP BUT don't cheat- that makes you a coward and a liar 5
Author leics Posted June 2, 2014 Author Posted June 2, 2014 Thank you for your reply. Cheating is something I'm very certain I wouldn't do. If my colleague was to make it clear she was interested in a relationship, I would have to seriously consider what I wanted to do at that point, but I wouldn't (or certainly would like to think I wouldn't) do anything until I'd talked (or tried to talk) to my wife. However, as mentioned, I've tried talking, but I just don't seem to be able to get her to listen or talk back. I felt bad enough when I said to her a few weeks ago that I might have to leave her, but I feel I might have to say it again but as a way to try and get her to at least talk to me about the problems. If there is something wrong and I can help then I'll do whatever it takes, but I just don't know what the issues are.
Popsicle Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 Uh, let me guess, your colleague doesn't have any kids? Must be nice. 3
underwater2010 Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 Instead of "I might have to leave you", why don't you start by asking what you can do to help her. Sounds like she might be a little stressed out. I can tell you that getting involved with another girl will not solve anything. 1
SoleMate Posted June 2, 2014 Posted June 2, 2014 I'd like to recommend two books for you: The Sex-Starved Marriage by Michele Weiner-Davis His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley They're both pragmatic, reality-based, solution-oriented approaches to the exact issues you are dealing with (which are old as the hills and experienced by millions of couples pretty much verbatim). And please leave the young female colleague alone. This is for everybody's sake including hers. You should try to fix your marriage first. If you can't fix it, and decide to divorce, then there's time aplenty to be hunting the next lucky lady. But you can't walk away from your kids regardless....2 youngsters need care so even a divorce might mean you continue to support your ex as a SAHM with even less to show for it and more expenses too. Sometimes it really is "cheaper to keep her", especially if you can rebuild the happiness that you both have been missing. Good luck, you deserve a chance at happiness and for now, I believe your best odds of sustainable happiness are with your wife. But things can't go on like they have been. Please read the books. 3
Furious Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 Hi All, I am in need of some advice, sorry this is quite long but I need to get across as much information I can as to how I feel. My wife and I have been married for 6 years, and we have 2 children. She was my first and only girlfriend, we met in our teens through my sister, and got married in our late 20's. However, things aren't as they used to be, and as I'll get to explaining below, there is now someone else possibly on the scene. Firstly are the constant moods, she's just always shouting. She seems to have no patience with the kids - she won't harm them physically, but she does shout a lot, rather than just telling them not to do something. I ask her not to shout so much, everyone in the damn street can hear her, but it makes no difference. She never used to be like that, but for several years now she's been doing it, and not only does it concern me in regards to what it must be like for the kids, it is quite embarrassing, and also very depressing. There is also a lack of sexual relations. After we moved in together it slowed, then we had our first child it slowed some more, we had our second child (4 years ago), it virtually stopped altogether (twice in a month is a very good month). It seems like she never actually wants to have sex. I try being romantic, she pushes me away. I sit next to her on the sofa to watch a film, she fidgets loads, says she's uncomfortable, and I end up sitting on the other sofa. The only time we do have sex is when I've got really frustrated about the constant knock backs, huff and puff a bit, and then a couple of nights later she pretends to be interested but just seems to lie there wanting it to be over ASAP. In fact, it usually starts with her saying "are you coming up to bed then", which is hardly romantic. It then makes me feel bad because I feel like she feels forced into it. But at the same time I feel bad because I wonder why she never seems to want sex. I've tried talking to her so many times, but she always just says "oh not this again" and turns away, she simply won't talk about it. As well as all of the above there is the laziness. I go out to work 5 days per week, I work hard to keep a roof over our heads, food coming in, a car, etc. etc. She opted to be a stay at home mother, which I fully supported, so I had to work harder to ensure a single income covered us. However, housework just doesn't seem to get done. I get home to piles of dirty dishes. Often I find I've got no clean shirts for work. The whole house is in a mess. I try to talk to her about it and explain that I can't be going out to work then coming home and doing everything here as well, but she just starts crying and says the same as above - "not this again, you're always moaning at me". I just cannot speak to her about anything, no matter how hard I try. I'm not always moaning at her by the way, I actually think I'm very patient but just get frustrated after several months of this and finally say something. I do help out around the house. I'm not the sort of guy who thinks that the woman should be chained to the kitchen or should be looking after the kids 24/7, I do my bit around the house, and do my fair share with looking after the kids. However, I also don't think I should be going out to work whilst she sits on Facebook throughout the day. There are also other small, and probably stupid, things that wind me up, but certainly aren't the biggest issues. Just silly things like burping loudly in the garden and giggling about it when we eat outside (hardly a great example to the kids), and shouting things out that neighbours really don't need to know about (such as our financial situation or just other normally private things). She seems to have absolutely no pride (or maybe I just care too much about what other people think). Now there is an additional complexity added to the situation. For the past few months I've been working closely alongside a girl from another department. We get on really well as friends/colleagues, but I've been noticing signs for a while that she might like me as more than this. When she comes to see me (about work) she's been sitting closer and closer to me. She started putting her hand on my arm and shoulder occasionally whilst talking to me, and pressing her legs against mine. She smiles a lot when talking to me, and seems to find any reason to come and see me. She tells me secrets which she won't tell anyone else (whispering a lot, which results in suspicious looks from other colleagues), and asks me a lot about my family. However, at the same time, I'm over 10 years older than her, and can't see why she would want me when there are so many younger guys she could get with. The thing is, although I think I might be reading too much into this, I feel that I'm really falling for her. I can't stop thinking about her, and haven't been able to for months. She's quiet, intelligent, loves kids, is great looking, just perfect really. I don't want to hurt my wife, and certainly don't want to hurt the kids, they've done nothing to deserve it. I've considered moving jobs to remove myself from the situation, and did have some interviews but nothing came of them, and besides I'm really enjoying my job (not just because of working with this colleague). As I mentioned above, I've tried talking to my wife to find out what the issue is, but she just won't talk about anything, she doesn't see that there is an issue. She doesn't seem to care about how it’s affecting me - I've tried explaining that it makes me feel bad about myself that she doesn't seem to want to be close to me, but I just get the usual "not this again" answer. I try explaining how her shouting all the time makes me feel, and how it could affect the kids, but it makes no difference. To my shame I said to her a few weeks ago "I think I'm going to have to leave you" to try and get a reaction from her, after she had been shouting and yelling at the kids around a park, but I didn't really get a reaction. I was just so frustrated, embarrassed, and at the end of my tether. I just don't know what to do. I haven't made any moves on the girl at work, and won't either (I've never been one for making the first move, which is probably why I've never had another girlfriend other than my wife). However, I'm concerned about whether I could resist if she made her feelings clear to me. If I am right in thinking she might be interested in me, then I think the only reason she hasn't made a move is due to my marriage and the kids, as I said above she asks about them a lot, but I got a feeling towards the end of last week that she wanted to, particularly at the point when sat next to me she almost leaned her head on my shoulder (I'm not sure what she was doing, she may have been trying to look at something on my other computer monitor). Although I have a responsibility to the kids, and to our marriage, I can't help thinking that we have one shot at this life, and if I'm really unhappy but have a chance at happiness I should go for it. But then what about the kids’ happiness - their happiness is more important than mine. Our youngest is a real daddies girl, she jumps up and down when I get home from work and starts giggling and hugging me. They both have to wave me off to work (or even if I'm just going to the shop). I just can't imagine walking out on them, but I'm just so unhappy with my marriage and feel I can't put up with 5 more years of this, never mind decades. I could wait until the kids are grown up, but might I have missed out on the possible "love of my life"? Sorry, I've rambled a bit here, but what would you advise I do? I expect I'll be told to work more on my relationship, and this is probably correct, but what more can I do if she won't talk to me and just turns away? Should I stay unhappy with the marriage for the sake of the kids? Should I make it clear I'm considering leaving her if she refuses to talk? I have to admit that I can't think that I've ever felt about my wife the way I feel about this other girl, however, I would rather work on my marriage if there is a chance of getting it back on track, particularly for the sake of the kids. However, I can't think how I can do this when I can't even talk to her. I'd really appreciate any advice, even if its to tell me what a bad husband/father I am for allowing myself to fall for this other girl in the way I have. I read your post and then re-read it. You're all over the map jumping from giving yourself permission to cheat to not wanting to hurt your wife and kids but yet you admit if the woman you have a crush on makes the first move you'll probably go for it. Ok....your wife has issues and your marriage is in trouble. The thing is, inviting a third party into the mix is not a solution but a potential powder keg that will make a bad situation worse. Also, if you truly care about and respect the woman you've got feelings for, you'd not want to involve her in your problems and deny her an authentic relationship with an "available man" with whom she isn't a secret. As to your wife.. tell her that you're unhappy as things are and that you insist on marriage counselling and if she refuses to make changes you will seek a divorce. Also, no one is perfect, you will BOTH need to make changes and be able to communicate your needs. It's a two way street if you want to save your marriage and family. Man up....you're capable of making heathy choices. in the end, you can look back and say that you had integrity and whether your marriage ends or not, you will have no regrets. 3
Scorpio Chick Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 I hate to say, but you're only 6 years into this marriage. It is striking the contrast between the list of negatives you put down about your wife, and really, what can only be positives about this coworker. Of course this other woman is not better than your wife, but you see your wife every day and y'all have 2 young children together. It really sounds like things have gotten to a point where there's not much fun...you are low hanging fruit for an affair. Don't do it. What were your vows when you got married? If you said 'for better or worse', well, it's not at the worst, not by a long shot, but these are the bad times, EVERY relationship, marriage has them. You must know that. You could divorce and marry this other woman, how long will it be before you see her warts? You cannot throw in the towel right now. There is no justifiable reason to put everyone through that. Ya'll must try to go to counseling...it sounds like your wife really needs a talking to. The no sex or low sex needs to stop. To me, it sounds like the problems are enough to warrant addressing, but definitely, positively not enough to divorce, etc... And, word to the wise, just look at the sheer number of people on LS where an affair did harm, they never do good, for anyone involved, and STAY FAR AWAY FROM THIS WOMAN. NOTHING good or useful will come of it, deep down you know this is true. 1
BetrayedH Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 My advice... Schedule marriage counseling. Find a day and time that works every week. Make plans for the kids to be with someone else. Tell your wife to be there and to make a concerted effort or your next appointment will be with a divorce attorney. She'll either agree and start to take your needs seriously or you'll be on the way to the divorce you need. And yeah, stay away from the chickie pie at work or you can forget whatever grounds you might have for complaint about your wife. 2
whichwayisup Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 Adding another woman into this mix will NOT make your life better in the long run. It's a patch and quick fix to make YOU feel better. Very selfish. If you want to keep your family intact and under one roof it's time to suck it up and put on a brave face and do your absolute best to get your marriage back on track. Even if that means you and your wife fighting and having heated discussions. Even if that means tears and pain, DO marriage counseling and fight to save this marriage! You and your wife let "life" get in the way, grew apart and stopped putting each other first. Each of you are responsible for how things are now. Suggest that you two do counseling. Make it clear to her that you are unhappy and if she wants her family intact then she must do marriage counseling with you. As for the OW co worker, don't even open the door. Slam it shut. 2
whichwayisup Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 Based upon what I have read from the OP (albeit limited information), and my life experiences, I can't help but wonder what she would say. Marriage/family counseling for whom? They go to marriage counseling together. To throw in the towel and walk away from marriage with kids without even getting professional help or trying to fix things is a big mistake. Obviously they loved each other enough to get married and start a family so they owe to themselves as well as their kids to reconnect and try their best to make life better home. He needs to back off the OW and focus on fixing things at home. The OW is not involved in any sort of counseling here, if that is what you were asking? 1
2sunny Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 If you plan to keep allowing the new gal to get too close to you - then finalize your divorce first. If you stay married tell the new gal to stay away and respect your marriage and personal space. And stop flirting with her! You must be giving her green light signals. Stop that. Decide - don't take your W down a path that's mean and cruel by cheating.
Kansas Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 Vulnerability + Opportunity = Affair Vulnerability + Opportunity + Openly sharing your vulnerability with your partner = NO Affair Relationships move through several cycles. Romantic love last for up to a year ... in that time you'll have all the feel good love drugs running through your system making you believe your partner is perfect (for the sheer purpose of bonding). Once the drugs run out, you enter the power struggle (which lasts 3 to 5 years), when you see your partner for who they really are (without all the love drugs to help you cope). You can choose to try and work things out with your wife. You can choose to move on with the new woman. You're going to end up in the exact same place with her, as you have with your wife. Different woman, different face, same place. 1
Author leics Posted June 3, 2014 Author Posted June 3, 2014 Thanks for all the replies. I haven't got time to reply individually just now as I have to go to work shortly but will do so later. Just a couple of points for now. I understand fully that she has 2 kids to look after which can be tiring, however they are at school all day, she has maybe 30 minutes in the morning with them, then a couple of hours in the evening before I get home to help out. I don't expect her to be constantly doing housework, but when I get home and hardly anything is done it is quite frustrating. With regards to the Co worker, I don't believe I've given off any signs, I've tried not to, but maybe I have sub consciously. When she sits at my desk I tend to move as far to the left and the wall as I can to give more space so she doesn't have to get so close. I talk about my family a lot to try and stress that I am married without actually coming out and saying back off (I can't be certain she is interested, I could just be reading too much into it due to the sudden attention). Its not as if I've gone out looking for this, it just seems to have happened, maybe just at the wrong time due to problems at home. I'll read through all the replies again later and will try and reply to all, I do appreciate all the advice and will take it on board. 1
2sunny Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 When she sits on your desk ( totally inappropriate) it's your job to tell her to get off. Tell her where to sit in a chair if she's in your office. It your job to make your boundary clear!! Unless you want to end up divorce. 4
Oberfeldwebel Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 The best advice I can give you is, finish one relationship before you start another. Consult with an attorney to determine your legal position. Schedule counseling and set up child care for the event. Sit her down and have a serious conversation with her and let her know in no uncertain terms that this is a die on the sword issue. 1
No Limit Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 So, you're unhappy with how your wife treats your kids but putting her into the affair-hellhole would make it all better for them? Nope. And if your coworker is really the type that goes to bed with any men regardless whether they have family or not, then she's a homewrecker. Stay away from her as good as you can.
gettingstronger Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 I don't think you are looking at your wifes situation honestly- the kids are under 6 yet they go to school 1/2 hour after they wake up and don't return until 2 hours prior to bedtime? Look at that again and see if thats true- Again- little ones are a ton of work- the stay at home vs. working spouse dynamic is a difficult one to navigate- it takes work and communication- I think the advice above about getting your ducks in a row and having a brutally honest conversation with your wife is a good one-be open to hearing how she views you as well- don't be defensive or keep score on who does what (thats an easy trap to fall in to) but see if you can come up with a plan that satisfies both of you- Remember-life will not be perfect and neither of you will get 100% of what you need because kids, although a joy, take a lot of work and energy- Good luck and address this sooner rather than later-
cozycottagelg Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 It sounds like your wife could be putting a lot more effort into your marriage. I think you need to address that first. It may not be the popular opinion around here, but if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford to stay home with my children, my home would be my job. Things would be done. Everything would be clean and meals would be prepared. I understand your frustrations completely. With that said. Do not cheat on your wife. This will make EVERYTHING harder. EVERYTHING. Address the issues you have, and if she is willing to work on them, awesome! If not, you can file for divorce and pursue relationships when that is finalized. If I have learned anything from this website, cheating is the most complicated and messed up thing you can do. It might feel good in the moment, but it really just never ends well. 1
10thengineerharrison Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 Here's my suggestion: You talk about your family to this coworker? Tell your wife about these conversations and what you are sensing might be going on with them. I would think that this would be the wake-up call you BOTH need to initiate positive change in your marriage. -10th Engineer Harrison
pj4ever Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 I am a former OW. Hope its ok to give you my thoughts. 1) Consider she may be depressed. Running a household with kids day in - day out - day in - day out.... Which brings me to number 2. 2) What have you and she done for yourselves only. Without kids, without housework, without stress. Have you tried to make a little fun for yourselves? Date nite? Get a babysitter and have dinner and a movie? Go to a concert - see a performer that you enjoyed years ago when you were in high school or college? Rekindle something from days gone past? Grandparents that might watch the kids for a long weekend where you can go rekindle a fun activity? Camping? Two nights at a resort? You knew each other from High School, there must be something you guys did that was carefree. Do it without pressuring her for sex. See if it brings on some passion from her. If not, I think she should see a Doctor. She could be JUST TIRED. 3) That woman in your office is being totally - TOTALLY - inappropriate and you must stop it - verbally. Tell her firmly her behavior is inappropriate and to never do it again. I agree with other posters - lock that woman out of your life and and only talk about work related assignments. Your co-workers are already talking? I see a Human Resources little chat in your future and it won't go well. And NEVER agree to have lunch with this woman or meet after work for drinks. And never share your personal emails or phone numbers. And please - do not discuss personal matters via your company email. It doesn't belong to you it is owned by the company and believe me, they will have already been reviewed and printed out by your IT department if you find yourself in HR. 4
Author leics Posted June 3, 2014 Author Posted June 3, 2014 Thanks again for all the replies, I'm going to try and respond to each of them now. Uh, let me guess, your colleague doesn't have any kids? Must be nice. No, she doesn't, but to be honest I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Not all women have children and then turn to being moody all the time, shouting and screaming all the time, etc. etc. Instead of "I might have to leave you", why don't you start by asking what you can do to help her. Sounds like she might be a little stressed out. I can tell you that getting involved with another girl will not solve anything. Unfortunately this is something I’ve tried many times without success. I’ve asked whether there is anything wrong, anything I’m doing wrong, anything I could be doing that might help, etc. However, as I mentioned in my message she just says “there is nothing wrong”, and “not this again” and turns away. I totally agree that getting involved with another girl won’t solve our marriage, quite the opposite. I’d much rather work on our marriage, however I just can’t see what I can do if she refuses to talk and accept that there is a problem. I'd like to recommend two books for you: The Sex-Starved Marriage by Michele Weiner-Davis His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley They're both pragmatic, reality-based, solution-oriented approaches to the exact issues you are dealing with (which are old as the hills and experienced by millions of couples pretty much verbatim). And please leave the young female colleague alone. This is for everybody's sake including hers. You should try to fix your marriage first. If you can't fix it, and decide to divorce, then there's time aplenty to be hunting the next lucky lady. But you can't walk away from your kids regardless....2 youngsters need care so even a divorce might mean you continue to support your ex as a SAHM with even less to show for it and more expenses too. Sometimes it really is "cheaper to keep her", especially if you can rebuild the happiness that you both have been missing. Good luck, you deserve a chance at happiness and for now, I believe your best odds of sustainable happiness are with your wife. But things can't go on like they have been. Please read the books. Thanks for the pointers to the books, I’ll look into them. Even if nothing did improve and we ended up in a divorce situation, I would never leave the kids, I would always, always be there for them. I would continue to support them financially and in any other way they need, and would also support my wife the same way (at the moment I’m paying off both of our debts, and would continue to do so, even if it meant I was left with very little for myself). I read your post and then re-read it. You're all over the map jumping from giving yourself permission to cheat to not wanting to hurt your wife and kids but yet you admit if the woman you have a crush on makes the first move you'll probably go for it. Ok....your wife has issues and your marriage is in trouble. The thing is, inviting a third party into the mix is not a solution but a potential powder keg that will make a bad situation worse. Also, if you truly care about and respect the woman you've got feelings for, you'd not want to involve her in your problems and deny her an authentic relationship with an "available man" with whom she isn't a secret. As to your wife.. tell her that you're unhappy as things are and that you insist on marriage counselling and if she refuses to make changes you will seek a divorce. Also, no one is perfect, you will BOTH need to make changes and be able to communicate your needs. It's a two way street if you want to save your marriage and family. Man up....you're capable of making heathy choices. in the end, you can look back and say that you had integrity and whether your marriage ends or not, you will have no regrets. I’m not trying to give myself permission to cheat, as I’ve mentioned a number of times I’d rather work on my marriage and have tried so hard to do so. I’ve tried hard to keep a distance from the other girl, but it’s not easy due to the work we both do which overlaps and requires each others input. Usually when conversations start digressing from work I try to get it back to work as quickly as I can. I don’t think I’ve given any indicators that I’m interested in her, though as mentioned previously maybe I’ve done so without realising. I’m therefore not inviting her into anything, or trying to involve her in the situation, but I just can’t be 100% sure that I would knock her back if she did suddenly make a move (but I’d like to think I would, especially when I think of the kids). I do think I’ll have to do as you suggest though, tell her that we either need to discuss this between ourselves (ideally), through a marriage councillor, or if she refuses both split up (even if its a temporary break up). I hate to say, but you're only 6 years into this marriage. It is striking the contrast between the list of negatives you put down about your wife, and really, what can only be positives about this coworker. Of course this other woman is not better than your wife, but you see your wife every day and y'all have 2 young children together. It really sounds like things have gotten to a point where there's not much fun...you are low hanging fruit for an affair. Don't do it. What were your vows when you got married? If you said 'for better or worse', well, it's not at the worst, not by a long shot, but these are the bad times, EVERY relationship, marriage has them. You must know that. You could divorce and marry this other woman, how long will it be before you see her warts? You cannot throw in the towel right now. There is no justifiable reason to put everyone through that. Ya'll must try to go to counseling...it sounds like your wife really needs a talking to. The no sex or low sex needs to stop. To me, it sounds like the problems are enough to warrant addressing, but definitely, positively not enough to divorce, etc... And, word to the wise, just look at the sheer number of people on LS where an affair did harm, they never do good, for anyone involved, and STAY FAR AWAY FROM THIS WOMAN. NOTHING good or useful will come of it, deep down you know this is true. If she continues to refuse to talk to me, I think counselling is going to have to be the other option, as mentioned above. However, I’m fairly sure she’ll continue to insist there is no problem and so refuse that as well. With regards to “bad times”, these have been going on for years. If I’m honest, I think I was rushed into the marriage – she proposed to me, I accepted but said we shouldn’t set a date straight away and I didn’t want to rush into anything. Straight away there was pressure from her and her mother to set a date. Although the sex side of things was already becoming an issue before we married, I (maybe stupidly) hoped that things would improve once we were married – the romance of it all. But it just got worse. The shouting has been going on for years to. One big worry is that this is how her mother is, and my wife seems to be belatedly taking after her in so many ways. Yep, your wife is lazy. Just a couple of toddlers? And she can't keep on top of your clothes or your "sexual needs"? That young girl at work has brought you to reality - and now you see that your marriage is flawed. Sometimes it takes something like that to see how unjust one's situation has become. Your wife yells at the kids when they misbehave? I am sure you back her up to the extent that you make sure the kids understand that they need to respect their mother and obey the rules of the house. Your support is, as you know, invaluable and can diffuse your spouse's anxiety as to how to parent and proceed - and with that anxiety relieving support she may not feel so overwhelmed. It also goes without saying that a father figure is quite important. Same page (to make the kids secure and less apt to act out to receive attention), and all that. And I am also sure that you are not like "the third toddler" - needy (without providing for the other person's needs). Have you considered that she pulls away on the couch for reasons other than those you want to ascribe to her? And that this young woman's interest (as perceived by you) hasn't caused you to put on special glasses? Just asking. I can’t comment on their sexual relationships, as they are private so I wouldn’t know, but I do know plenty of couples who have at least 2 children, but manage to get by without screaming at the kids all day, manage to get some housework done, etc. I’m not saying all women are or should be the same, but I also don’t expect her just to give up on doing everything because we have 2 kids. When I’m at home and the kids are misbehaving I always back the wife up, though I do ask her to stop yelling all the time. I generally tell them that if they don’t behave / do as they’re told, then they will go to their room, not get sweets that week, not watch tv in their rooms, or have other things taken away. It always does the trick, without the need to yell at the top of my voice. I also don’t see myself as the third toddler and needy. I don’t think wanting to have sexual relations with my wife more than once on an occasions, and only when I initiate it every single time, is being needy either. I provide for her needs by going out to work 9-5, helping out around the house when at home, helping out with the kids, taking her and the kids out, etc. The girl at work has only been around for a few months, so is in no way a cause of these issues that have been going on for years. I wish I knew the reason for her pulling away, but she won’t talk to me about it. We put a film on and I just try to sit with her to watch it, as we used to, but she wants to sit on her laptop. My advice... Schedule marriage counseling. Find a day and time that works every week. Make plans for the kids to be with someone else. Tell your wife to be there and to make a concerted effort or your next appointment will be with a divorce attorney. She'll either agree and start to take your needs seriously or you'll be on the way to the divorce you need. And yeah, stay away from the chickie pie at work or you can forget whatever grounds you might have for complaint about your wife. As mentioned above in previous replies (sorry, trying to catch up on loads of responses at once), I am considering counselling but don’t think my wife would go for it. I’m also doing my best to distance myself from the other girl, but its difficult due to us having to work together. Adding another woman into this mix will NOT make your life better in the long run. It's a patch and quick fix to make YOU feel better. Very selfish. If you want to keep your family intact and under one roof it's time to suck it up and put on a brave face and do your absolute best to get your marriage back on track. Even if that means you and your wife fighting and having heated discussions. Even if that means tears and pain, DO marriage counseling and fight to save this marriage! You and your wife let "life" get in the way, grew apart and stopped putting each other first. Each of you are responsible for how things are now. Suggest that you two do counseling. Make it clear to her that you are unhappy and if she wants her family intact then she must do marriage counseling with you. As for the OW co worker, don't even open the door. Slam it shut. In terms of seeing the other woman without first breaking off from my marriage, then I would agree with your first paragraph. However, I would potentially (because I could never be 100% certain) disagree where I first split from my wife before starting a relationship with the other girl (though that’s not to say that’s something I want to do or will do). Either way I would agree it’s probably selfish though in terms of the kids and what it could do to them, and so I would rather not go down that route. Based upon what I have read from the OP (albeit limited information), and my life experiences, I can't help but wonder what she would say. Marriage/family counseling for whom? As I’ve mentioned, I don’t think she would go for it because she can’t see there is a problem. If you plan to keep allowing the new gal to get too close to you - then finalize your divorce first. If you stay married tell the new gal to stay away and respect your marriage and personal space. And stop flirting with her! You must be giving her green light signals. Stop that. Decide - don't take your W down a path that's mean and cruel by cheating. As mentioned in some of my other responses above, I’m trying to avoid her getting too close to me. But at the same time, I don’t know for certain that she is interested in this way – as I mentioned in the OP I could be reading too much into it and so it could be quite awkward if I suddenly tell her to back off. I’m not really experienced at this, I’ve not worked closely with ladies in the past due to my line of work which doesn’t seem to have many, so I could be seeing signs that aren’t really there. But regardless of this colleague, my marital problems still exist and have done for a long time. As far as flirting with her is concerned, I don’t believe I am. I try to talk about the family a lot to try and stress that I’m married with kids and so am not looking for another relationship, without coming out directly and saying it. Sir, I agree with you. But I think it would be less than helpful (and even hurtful) if he went into those sessions without having given things some more thought... I don't know the man. But it all seems too typical. He works five days a week. Now he has a wandering eye. Damn lazy wife stays at home, etc. with those two young children. Is it possible he is exaggerating/re-writing things? Personally, I would not know. I can assure you I'm not exaggerating, all these issues are real. Vulnerability + Opportunity = Affair Vulnerability + Opportunity + Openly sharing your vulnerability with your partner = NO Affair Relationships move through several cycles. Romantic love last for up to a year ... in that time you'll have all the feel good love drugs running through your system making you believe your partner is perfect (for the sheer purpose of bonding). Once the drugs run out, you enter the power struggle (which lasts 3 to 5 years), when you see your partner for who they really are (without all the love drugs to help you cope). You can choose to try and work things out with your wife. You can choose to move on with the new woman. You're going to end up in the exact same place with her, as you have with your wife. Different woman, different face, same place. I know plenty of couples who haven’t ended up in this situation and are still really happily married, even with kids, though I’m sure there are also plenty in the same situation as ours. I don’t think it’s the “love drugs” wearing off that are the problem. For one thing, she used to be really patient with kids – she had to be as she worked with them as a nursery nurse (albeit with kids she handed back at the end of the day, and she had colleagues to help out all the time, so maybe this isn’t a good example). However, in so many ways she has actually changed. When she sits on your desk ( totally inappropriate) it's your job to tell her to get off. Tell her where to sit in a chair if she's in your office. It your job to make your boundary clear!! Unless you want to end up divorce. Unless I make a typo (which is possible), I don’t think I said she sits “on” my desk, she always either stands (if it’s a quick visit) or pulls up a chair and sits next to me. The best advice I can give you is, finish one relationship before you start another. Consult with an attorney to determine your legal position. Schedule counseling and set up child care for the event. Sit her down and have a serious conversation with her and let her know in no uncertain terms that this is a die on the sword issue. As above really, I think I might have to try and talk her into going to counselling, but I’m not sure she’d go for it. So, you're unhappy with how your wife treats your kids but putting her into the affair-hellhole would make it all better for them? Nope. And if your coworker is really the type that goes to bed with any men regardless whether they have family or not, then she's a homewrecker. Stay away from her as good as you can. I don’t for one minute think it would make it better for them, and I’ve said before I’d like to think that I wouldn’t go down that route. It’s just that with the attention I’m getting from this other girl compared to at home I can’t be 100% sure (I really, really wish I could, but I can’t help my feelings unfortunately, just try and distance myself as much as possible and continue trying to talk to the wife about the issues). If I am right about the signs I seem to be getting, then I do think that the only reason she hasn’t made a move is due to me being married with kids. Maybe she won’t make a move, and I certainly won’t, so maybe she’s not actually a massive issue. But our marital problems still exist regardless. I don't think you are looking at your wifes situation honestly- the kids are under 6 yet they go to school 1/2 hour after they wake up and don't return until 2 hours prior to bedtime? Look at that again and see if thats true- Again- little ones are a ton of work- the stay at home vs. working spouse dynamic is a difficult one to navigate- it takes work and communication- I think the advice above about getting your ducks in a row and having a brutally honest conversation with your wife is a good one-be open to hearing how she views you as well- don't be defensive or keep score on who does what (thats an easy trap to fall in to) but see if you can come up with a plan that satisfies both of you- Remember-life will not be perfect and neither of you will get 100% of what you need because kids, although a joy, take a lot of work and energy- Good luck and address this sooner rather than later- They get up at about 8am, and go to school at 8.45am. They then come home at 3.15pm, I’m home usually by 6pm (they go to bed about 8pm, but between 6-8pm I’m here to help out). I agree the advice about having a conversation is good advice, but it’s how to do that when she refuses to accept there is a problem and therefore refuses to speak about it. It sounds like your wife could be putting a lot more effort into your marriage. I think you need to address that first. It may not be the popular opinion around here, but if I was fortunate enough to be able to afford to stay home with my children, my home would be my job. Things would be done. Everything would be clean and meals would be prepared. I understand your frustrations completely. With that said. Do not cheat on your wife. This will make EVERYTHING harder. EVERYTHING. Address the issues you have, and if she is willing to work on them, awesome! If not, you can file for divorce and pursue relationships when that is finalized. If I have learned anything from this website, cheating is the most complicated and messed up thing you can do. It might feel good in the moment, but it really just never ends well. That’s the thing, I don’t expect everything to be clean, particularly the lounge where the kids play as as soon as they come in they get their toys out. However, I do expect the dishes to be washed, some clothes to have been washed, the bathroom and other rooms to be cleaner/tidier. And I don’t even expect this every single day, I don’t expect her to get around everything. But some things would be good. Sometimes I even come home and we don’t have a proper meal because she says “she couldn’t be bothered”. Where would we be if I couldn’t be bothered going into work? Here's my suggestion: You talk about your family to this coworker? Tell your wife about these conversations and what you are sensing might be going on with them. I would think that this would be the wake-up call you BOTH need to initiate positive change in your marriage. -10th Engineer Harrison Firstly, this isn’t the cause of the problems, as mentioned previously our problems have been going on for long before I started working with the other girl. However, I have mentioned her a few times to the wife, just in terms of our conversations (not mentioning anything about that she might be interested in me), and she seems to get jealous – at one point early on I had to actually tell her that nothing was going on between us because I sensed she was getting suspicious due to the amount of time I was spending working with her. It didn’t seem to have any effect on the situation at home whatsoever though. I really don’t feel though that I could tell her that this other girl might be interested in me, as she would then be constantly worried about what’s going on when I’m not at home. I am a former OW. Hope its ok to give you my thoughts. 1) Consider she may be depressed. Running a household with kids day in - day out - day in - day out.... Which brings me to number 2. 2) What have you and she done for yourselves only. Without kids, without housework, without stress. Have you tried to make a little fun for yourselves? Date nite? Get a babysitter and have dinner and a movie? Go to a concert - see a performer that you enjoyed years ago when you were in high school or college? Rekindle something from days gone past? Grandparents that might watch the kids for a long weekend where you can go rekindle a fun activity? Camping? Two nights at a resort? You knew each other from High School, there must be something you guys did that was carefree. Do it without pressuring her for sex. See if it brings on some passion from her. If not, I think she should see a Doctor. She could be JUST TIRED. 3) That woman in your office is being totally - TOTALLY - inappropriate and you must stop it - verbally. Tell her firmly her behavior is inappropriate and to never do it again. I agree with other posters - lock that woman out of your life and and only talk about work related assignments. Your co-workers are already talking? I see a Human Resources little chat in your future and it won't go well. And NEVER agree to have lunch with this woman or meet after work for drinks. And never share your personal emails or phone numbers. And please - do not discuss personal matters via your company email. It doesn't belong to you it is owned by the company and believe me, they will have already been reviewed and printed out by your IT department if you find yourself in HR. I have considered she might be depressed due to the same routines, but she’s had opportunities to do other things which he never takes, she just seems to want to sit on the laptop all day. We do go out occasionally without the kids, but it never seems to make much difference, we get back home and it’s all back to normal. I try just sitting with her just watching films as mentioned previously, like we used to do, but nothing. I’ll give it several weeks without making any mentions of sex, in the hope that she might make a move, but again, nothing. When I do try myself, we seem to go in a cycle of reasons, from “I’m tired”, “I’ve got a headache”, “I’ve got a stomach ache”, to “I just don’t want to”. With regards to point 3, as mentioned previously I still can’t be sure I’m reading the signs right, maybe I’m wrong and I’m just enjoying the attention. When the conversations digress from work, I try to get them back on track as quickly as possible. I’m not sure if my co-workers are talking, but I certainly do get some looks from one or two of them when she’s whispering.
10thengineerharrison Posted June 3, 2014 Posted June 3, 2014 Unfortunately this is something I’ve tried many times without success. I’ve asked whether there is anything wrong, anything I’m doing wrong, anything I could be doing that might help, etc. However, as I mentioned in my message she just says “there is nothing wrong”, and “not this again” and turns away. Try not asking what you can do to help. Try helping. You'd be surprised at what kind of positive effect you can have if you simply do something simple every now and then without asking. Firstly, this isn’t the cause of the problems, as mentioned previously our problems have been going on for long before I started working with the other girl. However, I have mentioned her a few times to the wife, just in terms of our conversations (not mentioning anything about that she might be interested in me), and she seems to get jealous – at one point early on I had to actually tell her that nothing was going on between us because I sensed she was getting suspicious due to the amount of time I was spending working with her. It didn’t seem to have any effect on the situation at home whatsoever though. I really don’t feel though that I could tell her that this other girl might be interested in me, as she would then be constantly worried about what’s going on when I’m not at home. I typically don't agree with much of anything that comes out of the marriage builders program, including their books, but one thing they say in one of the articles on their site is that "an affair is what your spouse thinks it is". Maybe that's extreme, maybe it isn't. But there are plenty of yellow, even red flags in your reply to me above. I'm glad your wife is aware of this girl. I think you should tell her that she might be interested in you. See where the conversation goes. From my own experience, I can tell you that pretty much every betrayed spouse looks back after d-day and recognizes the signs of an affair long after it's too late to do anything to improve the marriage. My wife even told me she was attracted to someone else. At the time, neither of us had heard of an emotional affair - I don't think the term had even been coined then (~1991) - so I told her "so long as there's no sex, I suppose it's not an affair". Did that "help"? As far as I know, she interpreted it exactly how she wanted to interpret it - that I didn't care about her (it still doesn't make any sense, but that's what she told me 11 years later on d-day). The PA started shortly thereafter. But my wakeup call didn't happen until d-day in 2002. Up to that point, I believed so strongly that she'd never cheat, that I attributed all the signs that would have been obvious to an outside observer to our marriage just being mediocre. But after d-day, I read books, went on websites, met with counselors - basically I learned more about relationships in a few months than I had in my previous 49 years. So, wouldn't you rather shake things up now and be honest with your wife about what's happening at work now, and get hard to work on identifying and fixing the problems in the marriage, or divorce if you can't (I bet you both can, though)? Rather than keep this work relationship a secret and let it mushroom out of your control because either you or the colleague can't control your emotions? Because recovering from THAT will be a lot more painful in the long run. -10th Engineer Harrison 1
whichwayisup Posted June 4, 2014 Posted June 4, 2014 Sir, I agree with you. But I think it would be less than helpful (and even hurtful) if he went into those sessions without having given things some more thought... I don't know the man. But it all seems too typical. He works five days a week. Now he has a wandering eye. Damn lazy wife stays at home, etc. with those two young children. Is it possible he is exaggerating/re-writing things? Personally, I would not know. Not a sir, but a Mrs! Why not let the original poster decide for himself if counseling could help his marriage or not. Marriages don't fix themselves and it's obvious that he and his wife have communication problems, they aren't connecting nor are they happily married overall. His wife needs a swift kick in the butt and a reality check.
whichwayisup Posted June 4, 2014 Posted June 4, 2014 It sounds like she isn't sexually attracted to you and she certainly isn't deeply and madly in love either. It's not you, it's her. And, she probably IS depressed but will deny it as she is comfortable and safe in this routine she's gotten used to and any change or effort to make life more exciting and challenging for her isn't what she wants. Time to put your foot down and tell her how unhappy you are, let her know that you figure she is just as unhappy too. Lay out some thoughts, counseling and maybe getting a part time job or volunteering somewhere when the kids are at school. Sitting at home all day and not doing what has to be done in the house is bad and it'll only get worse as time goes on. Tell her you love her and want your wife back! She has no choice here, can do counseling with you or she can get ready for a separation/divorce. Though I would really hope she'd get help and do counseling..
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