18yrs is enough

[Eggplant]

Of the 18, I think all of them would qualify as sexless under the clinical definition (once a month or less) with at least one stretch of a year.

That's horrible. It was your responsibility a long time ago to face this problem a long time ago. You should have left 17 years ago. I support you now in leaving. It's unreasonable.

 

I suppose this seems shallow, but this is something we have talked about a number of times and she makes feeble efforts to change but it never lasts.

A number of times? This giant of a problem? Your wording doesn't convince me that you put it in black and white. Did you say to her, "I cannot continue like this. We will have to divorce if it doesn't get better" ?

 

 

Divorce, but be gracious and accept your part. At this point.

[Sparty97]

That's horrible. It was your responsibility a long time ago to face this problem a long time ago. You should have left 17 years ago. I support you now in leaving. It's unreasonable.

 

A number of times? This giant of a problem? Your wording doesn't convince me that you put it in black and white. Did you say to her, "I cannot continue like this. We will have to divorce if it doesn't get better" ?

 

 

Divorce, but be gracious and accept your part. At this point.

 

Our lack of sex has been the topic of arguments more than monetary issues which is the normal thing couples fight about.

 

Probably in the neighborhood of 20 times the issue has been discussed at length always with promises/assurances made at the end of the argument/discussion.

 

I have never said "I need sex or I will divorce you". But divorce has come up in these arguments.

 

On more than one occasion she has asked "would you consider divorcing me over this" almost as if she were finding out how far she could push it.

 

The really funny thing is that when we do have sex she at least behaves as if she enjoys it, claims to orgasm (it sure seems like it), etc. but her response to the question "If you enjoy it why don't we do it more" is that she forgets about it.

 

Over the years whenever I touch her she will talk about how she is tired, busy, etc. She asks if we can just cuddle, etc.

 

I understand that she doesn't want every touch to lead to sex, but in our case no touch EVER leads to sex.

 

Her latest point seems to be that she enjoys midday sex. This is challenging when we both work. She says she doesn't have the energy for it in the morning or at night.

 

As I stated in a previous post, it started very early in the marriage as we didn't have sex on our honeymoon. We had premarital sex, in fact it was a fairly regular thing (several times a week, multiple times a day sometimes). I am not expecting a return to those days but once every week or two would be a huge improvement.

[giotto]

 

I have never said "I need sex or I will divorce you". But divorce has come up in these arguments.

 

I have. Her answer? I would understand if you did. In fact, we separated and almost divorced, but I didn't want to leave my kids. So, I accepted and stayed... then she says she'll fix herself and then she says she never will... brilliant! Not that I care anymore. BTW, next year it will 30 years together... only started going downhill after 10... so, I guess I'm lucky....

[Toodamnpragmatic]

The really funny thing is that when we do have sex she at least behaves as if she enjoys it, claims to orgasm (it sure seems like it), etc. but her response to the question "If you enjoy it why don't we do it more" is that she forgets about it.

 

 

Not so funny.... Asked the same question over and over and I'm a master in the bedroom (yea right) bringing my spouse to Orgasm 95% of the time:p:D;).....

[Sparty97]

I have. Her answer? I would understand if you did. In fact, we separated and almost divorced, but I didn't want to leave my kids. So, I accepted and stayed... then she says she'll fix herself and then she says she never will... brilliant! Not that I care anymore. BTW, next year it will 30 years together... only started going downhill after 10... so, I guess I'm lucky....

 

 

Seriously? Wow. Would she be open to negotiating an open marriage?

[giotto]

Seriously? Wow. Would she be open to negotiating an open marriage?

 

Never mentioned it, because I didn't have to. She wouldn't want that. In fact, when we separated, she asked me to tell her if/when I found another woman... I guess she would have moved out or the other way 'round...

[OpenBook]

I have never said "I need sex or I will divorce you".

 

Maybe you should. Clearly you're not getting her attention otherwise.

 

On more than one occasion she has asked "would you consider divorcing me over this" almost as if she were finding out how far she could push it.

 

Exactly! She's feeling out where that line is. I think you should delineate it for her so it's crystal-clear, no room for guessing.

[Sparty97]

Maybe you should. Clearly you're not getting her attention otherwise.

 

 

 

Exactly! She's feeling out where that line is. I think you should delineate it for her so it's crystal-clear, no room for guessing.

 

 

I feel no obligation to clarify. At this point I know nothing will change and giving her another chance will simply delay things.

 

Looking through my states laws I may need a slight delay anyway. According to what I have read this morning we need to be residents of the state for one year to qualify for a divorce proceeding. We are a couple of months shy of that. I will call a lawyer today and see what I can find out.

[giotto]

Can I just add that she didn't say that because she wanted me out or hated me... she was just not prepared to deal with her issues, i.e. going to psychotherapy. She'd rather divorce than going through all that. We got back together because she promised she would go. But 2 years ago (after one year waiting), she told me that should wouldn't go after all. That was it... BTW, we had sex last night, after 1 month...

[Snowflower]

I feel no obligation to clarify. At this point I know nothing will change and giving her another chance will simply delay things.

 

Looking through my states laws I may need a slight delay anyway. According to what I have read this morning we need to be residents of the state for one year to qualify for a divorce proceeding. We are a couple of months shy of that. I will call a lawyer today and see what I can find out.

 

Okay, well it looks like you've made the decision to divorce. She gets no more chances. Fair enough.

 

What else can we help you with?

[beatcuff]

... after 17+ years i think W deserves a 'last chance'

 

-Another last chance? How many of those should I give? Do I wait until I a 50? 60?

 

did NOT say that. i did say a LAST chance. tell her what you need, and tell her you will revisit it in 6 months. do not be open ended. 6 months is long enough for her to digest the gravity of the situation and develop a plan. do not be surprised at some point that SHE decides its time for HER to move on.

 

i am getting a strong impression you dominate over her and crush any objections she has so her only control is ------ sex. MC will help, as others have said, to allow a free flow of thoughts. maybe under the 'safety' of the MC you will finally find out the why (of her actions).

 

i find it curious as well the area you posted

 

-This is the area of the forum I am familiar with. Don't read too much into it.

 

oh i will read a ton into it. you will receive very different responses in the separation/divorce area. persons that 'hang' in that area have lived it, not dreamed of it. in general they will steer you to fix your current relationship. the green being greener........ persons in that area can offer far better advice than me.

 

i hope you find what you are looking for.

[Sparty97]

"i am getting a strong impression you dominate over her and crush any objections she has so her only control is ------ sex. MC will help, as others have said, to allow a free flow of thoughts. maybe under the 'safety' of the MC you will finally find out the why (of her actions). "

 

Your impression would be wrong. I do nothing of the sort.

 

And I have never seen evidence the MC helps or works.

[oldshirt]

 

And I have never seen evidence the MC helps or works.

 

I have. It helped for us. We were not having this exact issue but definately some mutual troubles in the connection/intimacy dept and counseling did help us.

 

When someone with multiple degrees and diplomas hanging on the wall points a finger in someone's face (figuratively, not literally) and says, " he has a legitimate complaint and is making very sound, nuts and bolts plans to divorce you and move on with his life if you don't start taking this seriously and start doing something about it..." it has a big impact.

 

Conversely, we all have our own blind spots too. There were times I got the finger in the face and told in no uncertain terms, " she doesn't feel connected to you when you are/are not doing ______." That can be a bitter pill to swallow but it's always important to know the role you play in your marital dynamics.

 

Counseling doesn't "fix" relationships in and of itself. What counseling does is gives a disinterested 3rd party a chance to look at things objectively and shine the light on each person's blind spots and roadblocks and give them the insight on how to address it.

 

If they/you choose not to address it, then you have your answer.

[giotto]

I have. It helped for us.

 

I agree with this... Sparty, I know I said it's time for you to leave, but hadn't noticed you never tried MC... maybe you should. We did try it and it didn't work out, but we are all different... as long as you find one you both like... my wife didn't like ours and gave up after 4 sessions, even if she suggested it. I guess that had something to do with not wanting to fix herself (which I didn't know at the time)...

[firmness]

That's horrible. It was your responsibility a long time ago to face this problem a long time ago. ...Did you say to her, "I cannot continue like this. We will have to divorce if it doesn't get better" ?

 

I respectfully and humbly disagree with this. It is not one partner's responsibility to face the problem, and it is clear that OP did try along the way to rectify this. Some partners feel entitled to whatever behavior they want to exhibit.

 

I have also learned from this site in particular, that ultimatums are for chumps. You do not do this. Communication is also a tricky one. This is a gender difference of epic proportions. Modern women tend to not be good listeners. They are great when you are dating and talking about your ex or if you have a female friend and talking about women in general - then you will never find a better listener on the planet. But once you get into a serious relationship, most (not all) women shut down. They do not want THEIR flaws pointed out.

 

So this becomes the classic "Why don't men communicate more/better/more openly?" We try, we really do.

 

The great women stay great and they stay with the great men in their lives. The average woman is, well, average, and that is where we are.

 

But this is not something that can be laid at OP's feet. Not this one. I do not sense that this is his fault in any way.

[oldshirt]

 

And I have never seen evidence the MC helps or works.

 

Also, it's needs to be pointed out that if you have minor children, the court may mandate some form of counseling or mediation anyway whether you want to or not.

 

Some courts frown on people filing without showing some documentation of trying to reconcile the marriage before seeking divorce.

 

If you have a couple months you have to wait before you can file anyway, you might as well document some counseling so you can show the court and her daddy and family that you sought assistance before pulling the ejection handle.

[Sparty97]

Also, it's needs to be pointed out that if you have minor children, the court may mandate some form of counseling or mediation anyway whether you want to or not.

 

Some courts frown on people filing without showing some documentation of trying to reconcile the marriage before seeking divorce.

 

If you have a couple months you have to wait before you can file anyway, you might as well document some counseling so you can show the court and her daddy and family that you sought assistance before pulling the ejection handle.

 

What do her daddy (he is dead) and family have to do with anything? The rest sounds like a nice scam for MC's.

[beach]

If you're done and it's over - at the very least, that's a conclusion.

 

Once a decision has been made - the next step is to take action to put that decision into effect.

 

Have you filed divorce papers? Or do you have to wait a few more months to be able to? You could fill them out and have them ready to be file. Show them to your wife and tell her what you plan to do and when to expect to be served.

 

I don't see any value in trying to convince this particular poster that things MAY get better - they've been awful for 18 years... And no reason to expect anything to change - so that is why taking steps to invoke change causes a chance that you can be happier.

[Turtles]

I just wonder why wait 18 years? There must have been some sort of trigger to make you so convinced after all that time? And if you waited that long already, and since you have to wait a few months to be able to file for divorce anyway, why not make your intentions clear, show her the divorce papers filled out... maybe she will "wake up" and surprise you? At any rate you have nothing to lose. If you do that I would encourage you not to be cynical about her efforts (even though it's very hard not to be)

[rester]

I have. It helped for us. We were not having this exact issue but definately some mutual troubles in the connection/intimacy dept and counseling did help us.

 

When someone with multiple degrees and diplomas hanging on the wall points a finger in someone's face (figuratively, not literally) and says, " he has a legitimate complaint and is making very sound, nuts and bolts plans to divorce you and move on with his life if you don't start taking this seriously and start doing something about it..." it has a big impact.

 

Conversely, we all have our own blind spots too. There were times I got the finger in the face and told in no uncertain terms, " she doesn't feel connected to you when you are/are not doing ______." That can be a bitter pill to swallow but it's always important to know the role you play in your marital dynamics.

 

Counseling doesn't "fix" relationships in and of itself. What counseling does is gives a disinterested 3rd party a chance to look at things objectively and shine the light on each person's blind spots and roadblocks and give them the insight on how to address it.

 

If they/you choose not to address it, then you have your answer.

 

I agree with this. I'm not sure why the OP keeps posting because it's clear he's going to divorce his wife, but it doesn't sounds like he's given her a fair chance. Over 20 times they've "discussed" this issue. What has his wife had to say about it? Does the OP make any effort to understand where she's coming from? From reading his posts in this thread, it doesn't sound like he gives two shats about her. It's all about him needing sex. That's something that can be worked through in marriage counseling. If he's anywhere near as defensive with his wife as he is to posters in here, I don't think his wife feels safe to communicate with him.

 

Edited to add that I haven't read any of the OP's previous threads so my opinion is solely off this one.

Edited June 3, 2014 by rester

[beach]

His prior threads seem to indicate that his wife may prefer women. She seems to mainly get turned on when women openly show interest in her.

 

It would certainly explain why she isn't interested in sex with him, as her husband...

[rester]

His prior threads seem to indicate that his wife may prefer women. She seems to mainly get turned on when women openly show interest in her.

 

It would certainly explain why she isn't interested in sex with him, as her husband...

 

 

Well okay then. That certainly changes things. But it's interesting that this reason is only speculated. Why won't she tell him that? It sucks that for 18 years he's been dealing with this but it could have been dealt with years ago if he (and her) was open to counseling. I suppose that is what most irritates me about this thread, his reluctance to get outside help. He could have found out she likes women ten or fifteen years ago and moved on by now.

[alwayshere]

Believe it or not, it isn't always the sex-starved person's fault they are starved. Believe it or not, sometimes the starver is just. Plain. Selfish.

 

No one should have to EARN affection from the person who promised to love and cherish them.

[Eggplant]

I respectfully and humbly disagree with this. It is not one partner's responsibility to face the problem, and it is clear that OP did try along the way to rectify this. Some partners feel entitled to whatever behavior they want to exhibit.

 

I have also learned from this site in particular, that ultimatums are for chumps. You do not do this. Communication is also a tricky one. This is a gender difference of epic proportions. Modern women tend to not be good listeners. They are great when you are dating and talking about your ex or if you have a female friend and talking about women in general - then you will never find a better listener on the planet. But once you get into a serious relationship, most (not all) women shut down. They do not want THEIR flaws pointed out.

 

So this becomes the classic "Why don't men communicate more/better/more openly?" We try, we really do.

 

The great women stay great and they stay with the great men in their lives. The average woman is, well, average, and that is where we are.

 

But this is not something that can be laid at OP's feet. Not this one. I do not sense that this is his fault in any way.

 

 

I would have said the same thing even if he had been physically abused for 18 years. If you are unhappy or are being mistreated in a relationship, you must take action and assert yourself, and leave if necessary. At some point, long before 18 years passes, you become complicit in the abuse.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure about the whole "Modern women tend to not be good listeners," as you say. (Secondly, why make this a "modern women" gender issue when we're talking about specific couple?) If his wife (or any partner man or woman) doesn't listen, then that's grounds for dissatisfaction on his part, and he is justified in taking actions to leave.

[Eggplant]

Our lack of sex has been the topic of arguments more than monetary issues which is the normal thing couples fight about.

 

Probably in the neighborhood of 20 times the issue has been discussed at length always with promises/assurances made at the end of the argument/discussion.

 

I have never said "I need sex or I will divorce you". But divorce has come up in these arguments.

 

On more than one occasion she has asked "would you consider divorcing me over this" almost as if she were finding out how far she could push it.

 

The really funny thing is that when we do have sex she at least behaves as if she enjoys it, claims to orgasm (it sure seems like it), etc. but her response to the question "If you enjoy it why don't we do it more" is that she forgets about it.

 

Over the years whenever I touch her she will talk about how she is tired, busy, etc. She asks if we can just cuddle, etc.

 

I understand that she doesn't want every touch to lead to sex, but in our case no touch EVER leads to sex.

 

Her latest point seems to be that she enjoys midday sex. This is challenging when we both work. She says she doesn't have the energy for it in the morning or at night.

 

As I stated in a previous post, it started very early in the marriage as we didn't have sex on our honeymoon. We had premarital sex, in fact it was a fairly regular thing (several times a week, multiple times a day sometimes). I am not expecting a return to those days but once every week or two would be a huge improvement.

 

 

You've given her a lot of warnings and chances. She's made her position clear. You're taking the right steps. Any woman for whom the marriage or you had been important would have done something about it by now, unless there's some physical impairment.

 

 

It's not fair on her part. You were too nice, I guess.

 

 

Divorce now, because the next relationship will probably offer you a lot more. It sounds as though you deserve better.