sunshinegirl Posted June 4, 2014 Posted June 4, 2014 But what exactly IS it that you can interpret is evident almost immediately? That the guy is really-super-mega into you or that he has in mind a future with you? For me, it wasn't a case of "really-super-mega" and there wasn't "future talk future talk future talk" out of the gate (both have become red flags to me, anyway) but it was that DH showed a consistent, warm interest in getting to know ME. I always felt like DH SAW me and ENJOYED me - for me. Not because I had some quality he lacked, or he had a fascination with the idea of me. I actually always felt like he wanted to know the real Sunshinegirl. And he was able and willing to talk about himself, in ways that showed me he was funny, sincere, generous, caring, and able to grow and learn. And then HOW is it evident? Is it how he treats you? How he talks about your relationship? How he talks about / his willingness to talk about / his initiation of talks about the future? Your gut feeling of what?--safety? Comfort? All of the above. Mostly in how he treated me and the feeling of safety and comfort I had with him. In a funny way I never ever felt like I was doing that thing of putting my best foot forward so he would stay interested. I always felt like I could be myself - I felt safe. That didn't mean full disclosure of everything on day 1, but it meant there was a natural evolution. We did fun stuff together that we both enjoyed, and along the way organically discovered that we think alike on many things, we value many of the same things, we've been through similar kinds of heartbreaks and have had to recover and learn from them. In all of that, nothing ever felt forced. Interestingly, I was able to enjoy the ride for what it was, and to be okay with wherever it led. I actually was able to let go of the "is this the one?!?!" anxiety. Given that I had a very strong feeling that I wanted a future with this guy less than a month after we officially started dating (at which time I started secretly writing my wedding guest list), it was a very interesting experience that I felt ZERO anxiety about it. In a weird way it just felt inevitable that we were going to end up together. I didn't feel the need to force any future talk discussions as there was clear and easy momentum and movement toward a future together. So I quietly built my guest list, and only told DH about it after we were engaged. (In fact there's a funny story about how/when we each said "I love you" for the first time, and in our excitement we both kind of burst into conversation about a future together. I think one of us said aloud that we could see being together for good, and the other jumped on with YES - I FEEL THAT WAY TOO!) Because lots of people know how to "future-fake," to borrow the words of Natalie Lue in her excellent relationship blog, Baggage Reclaim. Great website - I spent loads of time on there after my 2008 breakup. Glad you found it.
acrosstheuniverse Posted June 4, 2014 Posted June 4, 2014 I heard another saying that you reminded me of when I was posting about my divorce on another site a few years ago - "the common denominator in all of your relationships is YOU" That hit me pretty hard. I don't get that quote, as that applies to EVERYBODY! Everyone who is currently single was the common denominator in all of their failed relationships. It doesn't mean that the relationships all failed because of something that person did. A huge string of short term failed relationships might be an indicator that perhaps you can do something differently next time or your people picker is off, but that's about it. If we all felt like that, then we'd all half such horribly low self-esteem thinking that we were the cause of all of our relationships having ended when in reality it's usually sometimes you, sometimes then, and sometimes matters outta both of your controls.
Author Zapbasket Posted June 4, 2014 Author Posted June 4, 2014 For me, it wasn't a case of "really-super-mega" and there wasn't "future talk future talk future talk" out of the gate (both have become red flags to me, anyway) I'm really glad you clarified this because both behaviors right off the bat make me uncomfortable. I always have been a bit suspicious of anyone who seems to take a great liking of me without knowing me hardly at all. Sometimes I have wondered if this suspicion is a symptom of the self-esteem issues I become ever more aware I have. But really, I think that while you certainly can be *intrigued* by someone right off the bat, for an ardent excitement to ignite--one that is GENUINE and REALLY ABOUT *YOU*--the person has to learn a pretty significant amount of information about you. And spend a fair amount of time with you, and in meaningful conversation as well as having an opportunity to see you in action, just being "you." And so, in dating I've always felt uncomfortable by anyone who seemed really, really into me from the get-go. Perhaps this is part of what pulls me towards men who are a bit more reticent. Hmmm. but it was that DH showed a consistent, warm interest in getting to know ME. THIS. This is what I have felt was missing in all of my relationships. Maybe even some so-called friendships, too. I'm particularly looking at the adjectives, "consistent" and "warm." They all seemed intrigued--which is like a drug for a performer (which is my background from childhood to early adulthood), because it's the hook that you engage in order to win them over to LIKING you. I guess somehow I mistook that for genuine interest in and liking of ME. And I don't understand how I made that mistake. What cues were I missing? I always felt like DH SAW me and ENJOYED me - for me. Not because I had some quality he lacked, or he had a fascination with the idea of me. I actually always felt like he wanted to know the real Sunshinegirl. I think all the guys I would up with to date all were intrigued--captivated, even--by my joie de vivre and optimism. Both were qualities that they all lacked. And then they all came to resent me for those same qualities. But, again, how did I miss the difference between digging me for some quality (or qualities) that they lacked, and digging me for ME? I mean, after all, if I'd not felt or convinced myself I felt that they were into me, I'd not have gotten into a relationship with them. To me they *seemed* interested and attracted. And he was able and willing to talk about himself, in ways that showed me he was funny, sincere, generous, caring, and able to grow and learn. Come to think of it no guy I dated seriously told an anecdote about a journey of realization or anything like that. I guess I just never knew to listen for such stories (or other things that suggest the ability to grow and learn). Perhaps because I place too much emphasis on intelligent, i.e., "He's smart and so of course he is capable of personal growth and introspection." All of the above. Mostly in how he treated me and the feeling of safety and comfort I had with him. In a funny way I never ever felt like I was doing that thing of putting my best foot forward so he would stay interested. I always felt like I could be myself - I felt safe. That didn't mean full disclosure of everything on day 1, but it meant there was a natural evolution. We did fun stuff together that we both enjoyed, and along the way organically discovered that we think alike on many things, we value many of the same things, we've been through similar kinds of heartbreaks and have had to recover and learn from them. In all of that, nothing ever felt forced. Interestingly, I was able to enjoy the ride for what it was, and to be okay with wherever it led. I actually was able to let go of the "is this the one?!?!" anxiety. Given that I had a very strong feeling that I wanted a future with this guy less than a month after we officially started dating (at which time I started secretly writing my wedding guest list), it was a very interesting experience that I felt ZERO anxiety about it. In a weird way it just felt inevitable that we were going to end up together. I didn't feel the need to force any future talk discussions as there was clear and easy momentum and movement toward a future together. So I quietly built my guest list, and only told DH about it after we were engaged. (In fact there's a funny story about how/when we each said "I love you" for the first time, and in our excitement we both kind of burst into conversation about a future together. I think one of us said aloud that we could see being together for good, and the other jumped on with YES - I FEEL THAT WAY TOO!) Ok. I have a challenging question for you. Back in 2007, in a post in reply to something I said, you referenced the relationship you were in at the time, with E (not SSG's current husband). You said: It is a wonderful irony to me that my current love, who has been 100% faithful, loyal, supportive, and solid is a guy who is definitely less than perfect "on paper". Obviously this was before he cheated on you, before you knew he could cheat on you and never apologize for his actions. This was your experience of the relationship while you were in the relationship. And clearly you felt you had a good thing, just as you feel now that you have a good thing. So now, looking back, what was the difference? Do you chalk it up to not knowing back in 2007 what a truly healthy relationship felt like? Looking back was this kind of assertion of how strong your relationship was a way of trying to silence the niggling inner voice that said otherwise? I know in all three of my relationships, early on I had a niggling voice telling me something was amiss. But since I am an introvert in many respects, I go into ANY relationship with a question mark, with doubts until proven otherwise. So knowing this about myself I tend to not pay much attention to my niggling voice--I overcompensate by being more extroverted, or something like that. Anyway, despite that niggling voice in the beginning of all three of my LT relationships, I never believed things could have gone as badly as they did. I feel comfortable asking you this, SSG, because I know the relationship you have with your husband is a very different thing, and the fruit of a great deal of introspection and work on your part, and so I'm assuming that when you look back SOMETHING felt different in this relationship versus what you told yourself was this thing you have now in the previous relationship(s). I'm so afraid of making another terrible, costly, hurtful, time-wasting mistake. Great website - I spent loads of time on there after my 2008 breakup. Glad you found it. Actually, it was you who alerted me to her blog! It was in a post you wrote me several years ago, and I didn't really sit down and start reading through her blog until after this most recent break-up. Her insights are really amazing; I hope I'm as clear-headed about that stuff some day.
firmness Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 So. With you there; not so much with you on this part: ... I've seen women in relationships with men who can barely grunt in reply to questions directed about them about pretty much anything. So when I picked up on the emotional reticence of the men I was dating, I told myself they were "just being a man." I want to be careful here. Not all men are emotionally closed off. But way to many men are. And if they have experienced anything like I have, they have good reason to feel this way. I can only speak from my own experience, but I suspect it is fairly common. The women in my life (and there have been a few - if you include mothers, aunts, sisters, cousins, etc it is quite a large number) - and overwhelmingly they are horribly and utterly miserable listeners. I had one just about two hours ago from my ex wife! So bear with me: It was my son's birthday party today. I met her at the location and when I saw her, I walked towards her to give her some money and find out where the cake was going to be, etc. She walked away. We are waiting for the divorce decree to finally come from the courts and have been living apart for THREE YEARS! So it is not like we just broke up a week ago. She also knows that I have a low tolerance for silliness. So I give her the money and I walk over to my son and hug him etc. I ask him where the cake is going to be and he did not know. So I walk up to ex wife and say "look, I know you do not like communicating with me. But this is a bit much. I really need to know where the cake and party will be (it is a big place)" She launched into a tirade about how it is ME who does not communicate. She made some sarcastic comments and stormed off. Later she sent me an email and three texts repeating the same thing. The only thing I can do is ignore her when she is in this mode. After 20 years, I have learned to disengage. I could go on, but you get the idea. This is a very very common thing. The message she seems to be sending me is this "Tolerate my abusive behavior or else. Allow me to continue to drag you into my stupidity, or I will make every single interaction with you bizarre and uncomfortable - even at our son's birthday. If you say even one word in protest, I will tell my family and friends what a jerk you are and they will agree with me" So. I give her that. She can do and say whatever she needs to. But here is the gist of the story - she could claim that I am shut off and uncommunicative - because I am. But SHE earned this. Even with my new amazing girlfriend, she has essentially shut down a few conversations by getting "angry" with my honesty. And it isn't controlling or cheating or dishonesty. Just honest opinion stuff. So those things are now off limits. OR I have to bring them up, knowing that it will start an argument. So most men would just rather avoid that. I have no fear of starting a fight. But I also am not out looking for one. If she puts too many of these in front of me I will leave her. Otherwise my choice is to A) Argue with her all the time, or B) Shut down emotionally and avoid the fight. Does any of this make sense?
sunshinegirl Posted June 5, 2014 Posted June 5, 2014 Obviously this was before he cheated on you, before you knew he could cheat on you and never apologize for his actions. This was your experience of the relationship while you were in the relationship. And clearly you felt you had a good thing, just as you feel now that you have a good thing. So now, looking back, what was the difference? Do you chalk it up to not knowing back in 2007 what a truly healthy relationship felt like? Looking back was this kind of assertion of how strong your relationship was a way of trying to silence the niggling inner voice that said otherwise? Without knowing the context of my comment and without knowing when in 2007 I said it, what I can say with confidence is that I had a niggling inner voice telling me something was "off" from our very first 1-on-1 date. He was the WORST conversationalist ever, and I don't think he asked me a single question over dinner. I love conversation and the fact that I had to carry the entire conversation should have been a sign of things to come. But, I was hooked by the physical chemistry. So I struggled against that niggling inner voice for the entirety of the relationship, and I have vivid memories of looking at my happily paired friends and longing for what they had - warmth, connection, inside jokes, physical affection. I had virtually none of that with E even though, yes, he was "loyal, supportive, solid" in the way that an obedient dog is, or the way that a programmed robot might be. He played the role of dutiful boyfriend well, until the very end, anyway. The feeling with DH could not be more different. While dating, I could have described him as "loyal, supportive, solid" too, but the difference is that my whole being would have shouted that, from the deepest depths of my insides and the full conviction and alignment of my entire being. With E I said the same words but they had a certain hollowness to them because of the internal war my gut was waging. Does that make sense?
Author Zapbasket Posted June 6, 2014 Author Posted June 6, 2014 Without knowing the context of my comment and without knowing when in 2007 I said it, what I can say with confidence is that I had a niggling inner voice telling me something was "off" from our very first 1-on-1 date. He was the WORST conversationalist ever, and I don't think he asked me a single question over dinner. I love conversation and the fact that I had to carry the entire conversation should have been a sign of things to come. But, I was hooked by the physical chemistry. So I struggled against that niggling inner voice for the entirety of the relationship, and I have vivid memories of looking at my happily paired friends and longing for what they had - warmth, connection, inside jokes, physical affection. I had virtually none of that with E even though, yes, he was "loyal, supportive, solid" in the way that an obedient dog is, or the way that a programmed robot might be. He played the role of dutiful boyfriend well, until the very end, anyway. The feeling with DH could not be more different. While dating, I could have described him as "loyal, supportive, solid" too, but the difference is that my whole being would have shouted that, from the deepest depths of my insides and the full conviction and alignment of my entire being. With E I said the same words but they had a certain hollowness to them because of the internal war my gut was waging. Does that make sense? Re: does that make sense, it makes perfect sense, and at the same time, of course, no sense at all. To me it makes sense because you have articulated the same experience I had across all my romantic relationships (and some friendships, too). The emotional reticence and rigidity in all of my exes felt like a wall that demarcated where they ended; unfortunately where they ended was where I began. I always felt closed down, like I was always staring at a shut door and straining and craning at the cracks, desperate for a way in. On those rare times I was allowed in, or somehow managed to push in, my welcome wore thin really fast, or I was not welcome at all and I could feel it. It never felt "right," and any reassurances I gave myself that this was the relationship I wanted always felt, as you say, "hollow" because my gut was like this steady drumbeat, incessantly articulating something else. Looking back, what do you think got you past the first date? Was it really just the intense physical chemistry (which I know can exert an overwhelming pull), or was it also something else, something more insidious? I ask, because of the aspect of what you say that makes no sense at all. Which is, why you--why anyone--would stay in any situation that has your insides constantly in some degree of turmoil. You love conversation and yet, right at the gate, E. showed no capacity for this thing that is so integral to your pleasure in relating to another person. Yet there he went, straight to your most inner circle. It's crazy (and I know you understand I'm not intending any insult to you by saying that). Did you tell yourself all that time that the "inner war your gut was waging" would eventually cease through more of the same? Because what's scary is that the very presence of that inner turmoil indicates a ticking time bomb. No good outcome will result; rather there will only be hurt and confusion and wasted months or years or, God forbid, decades. Knowing what I know now, for instance, I wish I'd walked away from every single ex much sooner than when the relationships finally exploded in my face. I honestly do not feel I got anything meaningful from any of my romantic relationships. It sounds narrow-minded of me, but I really feel it to be the truth. I wish I could claim that time back, all 10-plus years of wasted time with men who were done with the relationship before it even began. Maybe that sounds unfair of me to say; I could hear every one of them protest, "That's not true! I did love you, GC, and I did want a relationship with you, but then we argued too much and then I didn't want it anymore." And to that I'd say, "You had one foot out from the beginning, and as soon as any aspect of our relationship was uncomfortable or required you to open up and put both feet in, you took steps away from the relationship until it couldn't continue anymore because I was holding it up all by myself because you had left the room altogether." All three of them had negative attitudes about everything and I hated it and stupidly tried to lead them to a way of being and seeing that a) came naturally to me, b) that I worked for despite many setbacks in my life and c) that I continually do the work to keep in hand because I never want life to kill my optimism and hope and love of being and growing and loving. I understand this to be what people with good character and values and an overall healthy attitude do. Meaning, yeah, I was a BETTER PERSON with BETTER CHARACTER than they were and had from the get-go. I knew it, and yet I didn't do the right thing with that knowledge and politely but firmly and early on excuse myself from the relationship. So what does one do with such a realization? What did you do? When you met your now-husband, SSG, did you feel like you had been holding out for something and now had found it? Or did you feel like this person just came into your life and as has been said by many on this board, "suddenly you understood why it never worked out with anyone else"? Now that you've been married several years, and have had a number of ups and downs and things you wish could be different at times, and things that drive you up the wall, no doubt, what do you feel is different about these inevitable "negative" experiences in your marriage versus the "negative" experiences you had in previous relationships? I am so afraid of sullying my life with another non-relationship. It is so frightening, this capacity we all seem to have to lie to ourselves. This is tangential but I can't help wondering what evolutionary purpose such a capacity serves, given it's the root of so much human unhappiness. Thanks, as always, SSG, for your thoughts. ((hugs))
sunshinegirl Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) Re: does that make sense, it makes perfect sense, and at the same time, of course, no sense at all. Looking back, what do you think got you past the first date? Was it really just the intense physical chemistry (which I know can exert an overwhelming pull), or was it also something else, something more insidious? A healthy, centered person would have walked away. The problem is, I was not a healthy, centered person when it came to relationships. (I was perfectly healthy and centered in many other aspects of my life.) I had these very deep and unconscious family-of-origin issues that made men like E. attractive to me. Dating men like him replicated certain dysfunctional dynamics within my own family, and so I was - entirely unconsciously - following the patterns that anyone in Psych 101 might already know: you choose what you know, you repeat childhood patterns in hopes of breaking them, you try to win/prove your worth and love by "conquering" the unconquerable. I didn't listen to the niggling voice probably because I thought it was going to go away when I finally convinced my love interest to change, transform, become my Prince Charming and thus vanquish the hurts and bad relationship lessons from my childhood. Magical thinking, indeed. Of course I couldn't see any of that at the time. I didn't really understand what was driving me. Only after I hit my rock bottom - after the E. breakup - did I vow I would never again put myself in a similar relationship. I was finally willing to do whatever it took to break that pattern. And thus started the very hard work of unpacking some tough childhood stuff. (As an aside I learned that my mom played as big a role as my dad in my particular set of dysfunctions.) I was a BETTER PERSON with BETTER CHARACTER than they were and had from the get-go. I knew it, and yet I didn't do the right thing with that knowledge and politely but firmly and early on excuse myself from the relationship. Yep, I had that experience too. So what does one do with such a realization? What did you do? See above. Deep, hard work of sorting myself out. I'd have to look up how long it took, perhaps 6-9 months of weekly or bi-weekly therapy. I think it went reasonably quickly because I was ready to do the work, ready to stop focusing on the men and focus on me, and ready to stop making excuses for my own behavior. When you met your now-husband, SSG, did you feel like you had been holding out for something and now had found it? Or did you feel like this person just came into your life and as has been said by many on this board, "suddenly you understood why it never worked out with anyone else"? When DH and I met, I was still on an official "guyaitus." I may have stopped therapy by then, as I felt I had the tools and insight I needed, and I was focused on creating a great life on my own. I wasn't romantically interested in him at first - just wasn't in that head space - and so it took some time for me to come around. It was clear pretty early on that he was interested in me - but again, that steady, warm interest, not lusty fireworks interest. At first, that really freaked me out. And now I know why: I was so un-used to an emotionally available, present man that I didn't know what to do with the one standing in front of me. I don't have to chase him? I don't have to work to draw him out? I don't have to nurse hidden wounds to uncover a hidden gem? There's nothing I have to rescue here? Or fix? I was willing to spend time with him because he made me laugh and he suggested really fun things together. I came off the guyaitus mid-summer and for awhile there was one other guy semi-sorta in the picture who was muddling the picture a bit. I knew I wanted a healthy relationship, so I was holding the other guy at bay b/c my niggling voice was going off with him, and I was holding DH at bay because I was scared of how available he was. For a few reasons the other guy was out of the picture that fall, and I was finally in a good place to sort out how I felt about DH. And, honestly, it actually all clicked in my head one day. Almost like a lightning strike, it was so dramatic, sudden, and certain. I realized that DH had all the qualities that I've been saying for years that I actually want, so why on earth am I holding him at arm's length? So I stopped holding him at arm's length, on October 23, 2009. It's still an anniversary we celebrate. EDITED TO ADD: And yes, I did come quickly to "understand why it never worked out with anyone else." Now that you've been married several years, and have had a number of ups and downs and things you wish could be different at times, and things that drive you up the wall, no doubt, what do you feel is different about these inevitable "negative" experiences in your marriage versus the "negative" experiences you had in previous relationships? The negatives in our marriage unfold within a safe environment of respect, acceptance, and love, meaning I don't feel like our relationship hangs in the balance when we argue. I can be impatient and DH calls me out when I use a particular tone with him; it's hard for me to work on but I am trying and appreciate that we are talking about it instead of burying it. DH can be OCD about certain things in a way that annoys me, so I raise it and he works on taming that piece of it. I think it's clear that both of us are willing to adjust where we can for the good of our relationship and marriage. That was never the case with my exes. I am so afraid of sullying my life with another non-relationship. It is so frightening, this capacity we all seem to have to lie to ourselves. This is tangential but I can't help wondering what evolutionary purpose such a capacity serves, given it's the root of so much human unhappiness. That's a very natural fear, but the great news is that you are in a much better position today to break that pattern than you've ever been before. If you stay the course and continue on your road to self-discovery, I'm confident you will avoid entirely, or quickly end, such relationships in the future. Edited June 6, 2014 by sunshinegirl 1
Rar0 Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Never let anyone make you feel as a option you're better than that
Author Zapbasket Posted June 13, 2014 Author Posted June 13, 2014 THANK YOU for this. I have read your whole post dozens of times. It resonates so much that I feel a real loss for what to say, except to clink proverbial glasses with you. When DH and I met, I was still on an official "guyaitus." I may have stopped therapy by then, as I felt I had the tools and insight I needed, and I was focused on creating a great life on my own. I wasn't romantically interested in him at first - just wasn't in that head space - and so it took some time for me to come around. It was clear pretty early on that he was interested in me - but again, that steady, warm interest, not lusty fireworks interest. At first, that really freaked me out. And now I know why: I was so un-used to an emotionally available, present man that I didn't know what to do with the one standing in front of me. I don't have to chase him? I don't have to work to draw him out? I don't have to nurse hidden wounds to uncover a hidden gem? There's nothing I have to rescue here? Or fix? I was willing to spend time with him because he made me laugh and he suggested really fun things together. I came off the guyaitus mid-summer and for awhile there was one other guy semi-sorta in the picture who was muddling the picture a bit. I knew I wanted a healthy relationship, so I was holding the other guy at bay b/c my niggling voice was going off with him, and I was holding DH at bay because I was scared of how available he was. For a few reasons the other guy was out of the picture that fall, and I was finally in a good place to sort out how I felt about DH. And, honestly, it actually all clicked in my head one day. Almost like a lightning strike, it was so dramatic, sudden, and certain. I realized that DH had all the qualities that I've been saying for years that I actually want, so why on earth am I holding him at arm's length? So I stopped holding him at arm's length, on October 23, 2009. It's still an anniversary we celebrate. EDITED TO ADD: And yes, I did come quickly to "understand why it never worked out with anyone else." My therapist keeps telling me how my pattern is to do most of the work in my relationships, and when the other person doesn't come to the fence to do his part, I jump the fence, cajole, beg, badger, push, discuss, whatever I can do to drag him to the fence to be present for the relationship. Of course, he never stays at the fence for long and so I'm always having to do the work on my side of the fence, AND on his. I don't know that I'd know what to do with someone who was just there, at the fence, eyes shining with genuine interest and the calm confidence of being exactly where he wants to be, at the fence, facing me with open heart and arms. Can you pinpoint why you at first were scared of his availability? When I imagine this man at the fence, I feel like I'd have to be someone else. Everything I'd normally do (leap the fence in myriad ways), I'd not have to do. So what would I do? I imagine...I'd finally get to...RELAX. It makes me feel a weird combo of wonderful and really sad to imagine--to FEEL--what that would be like. It makes me cry. (Though I am a bit teary this morning.)
sunshinegirl Posted June 13, 2014 Posted June 13, 2014 My therapist keeps telling me how my pattern is to do most of the work in my relationships, and when the other person doesn't come to the fence to do his part, I jump the fence, cajole, beg, badger, push, discuss, whatever I can do to drag him to the fence to be present for the relationship. Of course, he never stays at the fence for long and so I'm always having to do the work on my side of the fence, AND on his. I don't know that I'd know what to do with someone who was just there, at the fence, eyes shining with genuine interest and the calm confidence of being exactly where he wants to be, at the fence, facing me with open heart and arms. You and I are twins in so many aspects of this stuff. You remember my self-deprecating "want ad", how it described how I would do all the work in the relationship? Ugh. Same exact pattern. Can you pinpoint why you at first were scared of his availability? When I imagine this man at the fence, I feel like I'd have to be someone else. Everything I'd normally do (leap the fence in myriad ways), I'd not have to do. I'm not sure I've ever fully examined this piece; I think it was probably a combination of a few related things. I think I had shades of unavailability going on myself. Not in a full fledged way; I never felt like it fully "fit" when self-help books described people who wind up with unavailable people as being unavailable themselves. But DH standing there with proverbial open arms made real the possibility of having a truly emotionally intimate romantic relationship, and I suspect that in some subconscious way, I wasn't sure I was ready for the real thing. Also, DH was "against my type" in so many ways, including physically (balding, on the heavier side), that my first instinct was to hold back/doubt/question whether going forward was a good idea. Being with him promised to be so different from anything I had experienced before, that I had some "fear of the unknown." I guess I would summarize all that to say that DH was a case of, "Careful what you wish for - you just might get it!"
Author Zapbasket Posted June 15, 2014 Author Posted June 15, 2014 This all makes a lot of sense. I think it was probably a combination of a few related things. I think I had shades of unavailability going on myself. Not in a full fledged way; I never felt like it fully "fit" when self-help books described people who wind up with unavailable people as being unavailable themselves. I identify with this. On the one hand, it makes sense that the answer to the question, "Why do I choose emotionally unavailable partners and then stay with them even when it's obvious they are emotionally unable to give me what I want?" would be, "Because on some level, I am also emotionally unavailable." For me, it is true that at an earlier stage of my life, I was emotionally unavailable in certain respects. I worked very hard and consciously on becoming an emotionally more open person, and for the most part I really succeeded. I DO bring a healthy level of emotional receptivity and openness to my relationships, and I DO actively seek intimacy--conversationally, physically, time devoted to the relationship, in conflict, etc. I guess the "emotionally unavailable" part is in some FEAR of a truly emotionally intimate relationship that kept you and me in relationships that quite obviously were not going to yield emotional intimacy on a consistent basis, if at all? But DH standing there with proverbial open arms made real the possibility of having a truly emotionally intimate romantic relationship, and I suspect that in some subconscious way, I wasn't sure I was ready for the real thing. Can you pinpoint WHY you weren't ready? What about the idea of "the real thing" made you afraid? Let me ask it another way: now that you do have the real thing, what does it require of you that the emotionally unavailable relationships you were in did NOT require? Because I suspect that's where the fear lies, no? That perhaps then you cannot hide from yourself in any way, because in an emotionally intimate relationship, there is another person on the other side of the proverbial fence requiring you to be emotionally present and honest, with him and by extension, with yourself? This really stumps me because logically, why fear intimacy when both of our trajectories have demonstrated, with soul-sucking clarity, how unrewarding and ultimately painful the alternative is? Why SHOULDN'T I want to dive wholeheartedly into "the real thing"? I mean, I don't see what, psychologically, I got out of prolonging the emotionally unavailable relationship with K, except maybe for that thing about trying to "win over" an unavailable person to right the wounds of the past. But it was obvious I wasn't winning a thing, just becoming ever more demoralized. Also, DH was "against my type" in so many ways, including physically (balding, on the heavier side), that my first instinct was to hold back/doubt/question whether going forward was a good idea. Being with him promised to be so different from anything I had experienced before, that I had some "fear of the unknown." Makes sense. So what changed your mind? When you said it all just clicked one day, what clicked? It sounds like perhaps at first you were not physically attracted to him; did that change; was that part of the "click"? I guess I would summarize all that to say that DH was a case of, "Careful what you wish for - you just might get it!" I can't wait until I meet that emotionally available person. I wonder what I will feel, if I will feel reticent because it is unlike anything I experienced. Like I said in an earlier post to you, when I imagine how it would feel to be with someone whom I did not have to chase down to get the relationship I need, it makes me feel a deep relief, like I can finally relax, but also very sad--maybe because in that would also be the realization that all along it could have been so gloriously easy and I wasted so many years trying so, so, so HARD, with nothing to show for it relationally.
sunshinegirl Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Can you pinpoint WHY you weren't ready? What about the idea of "the real thing" made you afraid? Let me ask it another way: now that you do have the real thing, what does it require of you that the emotionally unavailable relationships you were in did NOT require? Here's the deal: as long as I dated men with significant issues, it was easy for the focus to be on them, their deficiencies, their problems, their inability to "show up." One side effect of that focus is that I got to be the heroine, the person with better character, patience, wisdom, interpersonal skill, and empathy. Once I was dating someone perfectly equipped to be in relationship with me as he was, I didn't get to hold on to my heroine status. Surprise, surprise: it turns out I have flaws too, and being in a healthy relationship means being willing to be vulnerable, and to accept that at times, I am the one who screwed up, I am the one whose impatience and irritating tone of voice really hurt him, I am the one who behaved selfishly. I don't get to hide behind justifications or comparisons to that crappy thing he just did. Being in a healthy relationship has taught me humility in a new way. As you say, you cannot hide from yourself anymore. Makes sense. So what changed your mind? When you said it all just clicked one day, what clicked? It sounds like perhaps at first you were not physically attracted to him; did that change; was that part of the "click"? I don't know if I can put it into words - it had been a mental barrier more than anything else. I think I finally "saw" the entirety of who he is, and knew that I wanted to be with him. Once I had decided that, our conversational chemistry virtually exploded into physical chemistry. I can't wait until I meet that emotionally available person. I wonder what I will feel, if I will feel reticent because it is unlike anything I experienced. Like I said in an earlier post to you, when I imagine how it would feel to be with someone whom I did not have to chase down to get the relationship I need, it makes me feel a deep relief, like I can finally relax, but also very sad--maybe because in that would also be the realization that all along it could have been so gloriously easy and I wasted so many years trying so, so, so HARD, with nothing to show for it relationally. I hope you can come to appreciate your life's path, strewn though it is with romantic disappointments. I had zero - ZERO - sadness for the time I wasted in bad relationships prior to DH. Instead, all I felt like was "This was SO WORTH the wait, the pain, the uncertainty!" I had to go through all that crud because it shaped me into the woman I was when DH and I met. In fact, DH and I nearly crossed paths at least twice before - in 1994 and in 2003-4 - and we both agree that we would not have been ready for each other either time. We were both in very different places in our lives, and we each had different paths to travel career-wise, relationship-wise, and growth-wise, before we met in 2009. I only wish I could have time traveled to whisper in my younger self's ear that "Everything is really going to be okay. Truly - you are going to know more happiness than you ever thought possible. Yes, you are weathering some storms now, but I promise, you're going to come out the other side better than ever. And you will even feel grateful that you experienced some of this pain, because it taught you so much." GC, think of me as YOUR future self whispering those words in your ear. To borrow from Martha Beck, "Everything is already okay."
Author Zapbasket Posted June 17, 2014 Author Posted June 17, 2014 Thanks, SSG. Here's the deal: as long as I dated men with significant issues, it was easy for the focus to be on them, their deficiencies, their problems, their inability to "show up." One side effect of that focus is that I got to be the heroine, the person with better character, patience, wisdom, interpersonal skill, and empathy. Once I was dating someone perfectly equipped to be in relationship with me as he was, I didn't get to hold on to my heroine status. Surprise, surprise: it turns out I have flaws too, and being in a healthy relationship means being willing to be vulnerable, and to accept that at times, I am the one who screwed up, I am the one whose impatience and irritating tone of voice really hurt him, I am the one who behaved selfishly. I don't get to hide behind justifications or comparisons to that crappy thing he just did. Being in a healthy relationship has taught me humility in a new way. As you say, you cannot hide from yourself anymore. This makes so much sense. I've been meditating on what you said here, trying to suss out whether this rings true for me, as well. I'm not so sure. I really like being called out on my crap; I take it as a sign of an equal who genuinely cares about me. I appreciate when people feel they can be honest with me, and I so want to learn how to be a better person. The last thing I want is to be allowed to ride around on a superior high horse (which I'm wont to do at times until I end up kicking my OWN butt), and I feel engaged and titillated by a person I trust when s/he says, with kindness, "GC, here's what I experience from you, and here's how it affects me." So I don't know *what* I "gain" by choosing partners who have issues that significantly impede their ability to contribute healthfully to a healthy relationship. Maybe...it's MY way of "breaking up" with a person before the relationship even begins? Maybe on some level it's knowing they can't be what I ultimately need and so I don't have to deal with the anguish of potentially losing someone who is everything I could want in a partner. Seems plausible, except that I DO experience that anguish in every relationship: I lie to myself that inside these guys IS the guy who is everything I want, and I hold them to that expectation; they never meet the expectation, especially at the relationship's final crossroads, and always I am crushed and disappointed. Man, this is some f'ed up sh*t. Thinking about it gives me a headache. Can anyone relate? Does anyone have any insight from their own experience? SSG, here's a question for you: You obviously are a very caring, nurturing person. This was a downfall in your earlier, unhealthy relationships because this otherwise wonderful trait of yours led you to pick up the slack caused by your partners' issues, and basically carry the relationship. Now that you are in a healthy relationship, with someone who doesn't need you to climb over to their side of the fence and lead them to the fence to show up for the relationship, who doesn't need you to nurse some narcissistic wound, where do you give your copious empathy and nurturance? I'm not sure how to word the question, but I hope you know what I mean. Basically, what's the difference, when you're a caring person who makes allowances for people because you have empathy and love them, when you direct that care towards a healthy versus an unhealthy partner? I hope you can come to appreciate your life's path, strewn though it is with romantic disappointments. Thank you for this. I hope I can come to see it this way, too. I only wish I could have time traveled to whisper in my younger self's ear that "Everything is really going to be okay. Truly - you are going to know more happiness than you ever thought possible. Yes, you are weathering some storms now, but I promise, you're going to come out the other side better than ever. And you will even feel grateful that you experienced some of this pain, because it taught you so much." GC, think of me as YOUR future self whispering those words in your ear. To borrow from Martha Beck, "Everything is already okay." But, again--and I am ashamed of my pessimism in response to such a lovely, generous thought--what if you HADN'T met a great guy? What if you were in the thick of many more years kissing proverbial frogs, where at least the difference now was that you cut and bailed as soon as you detected their "froggy," "un-princely" nature? Do you think you truly would be ok, and see things in the positive light you do now? I hate to be such a gray cloud but I have to ask, as it emanates from my own fear that I might be a few (hopefully very short) relationships away from the right person for me. (I hope not, though!)
sunshinegirl Posted June 17, 2014 Posted June 17, 2014 Thanks, SSG. SSG, here's a question for you: You obviously are a very caring, nurturing person. This was a downfall in your earlier, unhealthy relationships because this otherwise wonderful trait of yours led you to pick up the slack caused by your partners' issues, and basically carry the relationship. Now that you are in a healthy relationship, with someone who doesn't need you to climb over to their side of the fence and lead them to the fence to show up for the relationship, who doesn't need you to nurse some narcissistic wound, where do you give your copious empathy and nurturance? I'm not sure how to word the question, but I hope you know what I mean. Basically, what's the difference, when you're a caring person who makes allowances for people because you have empathy and love them, when you direct that care towards a healthy versus an unhealthy partner? Well, it's not like I'm NOT caring or nurturing with DH. It's not that I've had to "redirect" it elsewhere, but instead it's that when I offer it, it is returned to me in spades. Seriously I actually married someone with more of a caring, nurturing streak than me, so it feeds itself in a nice virtuous cycle, instead of the vicious cycle of a bad relationship where you keep pouring more of yourself into it but not getting it back, but you're so convinced that you SHOULD be getting it back that you keep pouring, keep pouring, keep pouring. But, again--and I am ashamed of my pessimism in response to such a lovely, generous thought--what if you HADN'T met a great guy? What if you were in the thick of many more years kissing proverbial frogs, where at least the difference now was that you cut and bailed as soon as you detected their "froggy," "un-princely" nature? Do you think you truly would be ok, and see things in the positive light you do now? I hate to be such a gray cloud but I have to ask, as it emanates from my own fear that I might be a few (hopefully very short) relationships away from the right person for me. (I hope not, though!) You're right, there aren't guarantees in life. BUT, I was well on my way to true contentment as a single person, such that a partner became a great "bonus" but not a requirement for my own happiness. So I really like that you've started focusing on what you want your life to look like for just YOU. For me, my "single" picture had to do with the quality and nature of relationships I wanted to have in my life - from family to friends to work colleagues - and what I could do to nurture more of what I wanted on those fronts, and to be really present to the love and joys and experiences found in those relationships. On the kid front, I realized that my close relationship with nephews, nieces, and friends' kids was really rich and brought lots of the positives of parenting without the negatives - a true source of richness and happiness for me. I also started dreaming more about the adventures I hoped to have and take in life, and suddenly it seemed that the universe was wide open to me. So...I *do* think I would truly be OK. To be clear, don't confuse this with not still wanting to find a partner, but instead with understanding that I was no longer going to make my happiness contingent on finding that person, and certainly not on any given timeframe. I was no longer going to waste my time in relationships where it was clear early on that there were incompatibilities. I adopted a much more self-protective, self-loving, self-caring mindset that I believe would have benefited me no matter how my life unfolded from that point onward.
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