Why should "the rules" have to change to negate your fears of rejection?

[Lernaean_Hydra]

I've seen a lot of threads and heard a lot of talk - especially since the Isla Vista shooting - about how more women should start approaching men, namely because men are "tired" of facing rejection. But why is this so? Why should women have to accommodate a select few men and alleviate their phobias by going against standard practice and what some might argue is human nature?

 

Saying nothing of the fact that many women who approach men first are often seen - sometimes even by the men themselves - as too aggressive, desperate, predatory or masculine. I can't tell you how many times I've been told it's emasculating or a "turn off".

 

To say more women should start approaching also means one has to operate under the assumption that if a woman approaches, she will not get rejected. It sort of implies that men would never reject any woman who came onto them which I think we all know is categorically untrue.

 

Personally, I have no problem showing interest, flirting etc, nor do I have an aversion to approaching men out of "fear" but it certainly doesn't make me feel feminine either. And frankly, if a guy is too timid to approach me, we probably wouldn't be a good fit anyway.

 

 

So I ask, how does this solve anyone's problem?

[pteromom]

Rules don't have to change. A woman should do what is natural to her. For some, that will be sitting back and letting men approach. For others, it will be doing the approaching.

[Woggle]

I never had any issue approaching but some women's aversion to approaching has nothing to do with tradition and everything to do with fear of rejection. They don't like rejection anymore than men. That is really what it is about.

 

I think with most normal and sane men it has more to do with the double standards when it comes to traditional gender roles. It's not really fair to only want traditional when it suits you and call a man sexist for wanting it when it suits him. It's a two way street.

 

I would advise women to avoid even being in the same room as lunatics like the shooter. Like I said in other threads if he got a GF he most likely would have abused her.

[Potz4prez]

I never had any issue approaching but some women's aversion to approaching has nothing to do with tradition and everything to do with fear of rejection. They don't like rejection anymore than men. That is really what it is about.

 

I think with most normal and sane men it has more to do with the double standards when it comes to traditional gender roles. It's not really fair to only want traditional when it suits you and call a man sexist for wanting it when it suits him. It's a two way street.

 

Obviously something has changed, and maybe this is it. Women want their cake and to eat it too. The dating scene is a **** show compared to what it used to be.

 

Maybe it's because people have started to shy away from commitment and monogamy...

[Keenly]

I'll ask you the same question, why should women hide behind outdated " roles " in order to avoid rejection?

 

 

If you like some one and you don't approach them because your a woman, and " women don't approach " you are just as cowardly as the type of man you are ranting against.

 

 

 

" you " being pejorative.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

I never had any issue approaching but some women's aversion to approaching has nothing to do with tradition and everything to do with fear of rejection. They don't like rejection anymore than men. That is really what it is about.

 

I don't know, honestly, I fear rejection about as much as I fear a glass of milk. Which is to say, not at all. Not on initial approach at least. I would however fear rejection from a person I had either been dating long term or had long since been interested in. Because there are many more forms of rejection than simply being shot down on initial approach. And one might also argue some of those are actually much worse. I mean, which would you prefer, to be rejected by a long term mate or some absolute stranger on the street?

 

I think with most normal and sane men it has more to do with the double standards when it comes to traditional gender roles. It's not really fair to only want traditional when it suits you and call a man sexist for wanting it when it suits him. It's a two way street.

 

 

Why should there be a wholesale acceptance of traditional gender roles by either sex just because they want to adhere to some of them? That's like saying one must accept all the ideologies put forth by their political party of choice. You don't have to be anti-gun to be a democrat, etc. Also, men like to pick and chose which gender roles to adhere to as well so that's hogwash.

[Potz4prez]

Says she doesn't fear rejection...

 

Never approaches men...

 

wut

[Woggle]

I don't know, honestly, I fear rejection about as much as I fear a glass of milk. Which is to say, not at all. Not on initial approach at least. I would however fear rejection from a person I had either been dating long term or had long since been interested in. Because there are many more forms of rejection than simply being shot down on initial approach. And one might also argue some of those are actually much worse. I mean, which would you prefer, to be rejected by a long term mate or some absolute stranger on the street?

 

 

 

 

Why should there be a wholesale acceptance of traditional gender roles by either sex just because they want to adhere to some of them? That's like saying one must accept all the ideologies put forth by their political party of choice. You don't have to be anti-gun to be a democrat, etc. Also, men like to pick and chose which gender roles to adhere to as well so that's hogwash.

 

 

I agree that we don't need to accept all of them but for the past few decades men have been lectured on not adhering to old gender roles and we need to become more evolved but some women still seem to want to date like it is the 1950s.

[Potz4prez]

Woman can't make up their mind... about anything.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

I'll ask you the same question, why should women hide behind outdated " roles " in order to avoid rejection?

 

If you like some one and you don't approach them because your a woman, and " women don't approach " you are just as cowardly as the type of man you are ranting against.

 

I certainly can't speak for other women and I'm sure I'm outside of the norm but rejection is not something I really fear. I readily accept I'm not everyone's type so not approaching isn't out of cowardice.

 

I like men who can take charge. In my experience, when I have apporached, or initiated the conversation it somehow sets the tone for the rest of our interactions or even whatever relationship might follow. It puts an idea in their head that I want to "lead" or be the "alpha" which I most certainly don't.

 

To be fair, I've never been hardcore crushing on a guy for days or weeks on end but sat on my ass waiting for him to approach me; however the end result is often the same as I mentioned above. I'm talking more about cold approaching in bars or some such though.

[slizl]

I have been rejected countless times, but I have zero problem approaching women. I feel that worst case, I get rejected, but probably made her feel good about herself. I almost consider it a win win when I approach women. Either they like me and we talk or they reject me but still feel good about getting hit on. The few times I have been hit on in my life, it made me feel really good

[Keenly]

I certainly can't speak for other women and I'm sure I'm outside of the norm but rejection is not something I really fear. I readily accept I'm not everyone's type so not approaching isn't out of cowardice.

 

I like men who can take charge. In my experience, when I have apporached, or initiated the conversation it somehow sets the tone for the rest of our interactions or even whatever relationship might follow. It puts an idea in their head that I want to "lead" or be the "alpha" which I most certainly don't.

 

To be fair, I've never been hardcore crushing on a guy for days or weeks on end but sat on my ass waiting for him to approach me; however the end result is often the same as I mentioned above. I'm talking more about cold approaching in bars or some such though.

 

Not all are the same though.

 

I can only use myself as an example. I don't approach random women.

 

If I get signs, or because I'm so dense to subtlety apparently, a REALLY obvious, borderljne hitting on me sign, I'll take the lead from there.

 

 

So sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Says she doesn't fear rejection...

 

Never approaches men...

 

wut

 

 

First of all, I didn't say I never approach men. Second, you realize there are other reasons why one may not approach aside from rejection right? I'm sure I even listed some of them in my OP .

[SmartDude]

A woman approach a man? Forget about it, its just not going to happen. Or we would have to redefine "approach".

 

Yes, I know. It is every young man's central point of anger and frustration in life. *Why don't women just verbally and explicitly show interest?*

 

Women truthfully become totally retarded when they have feelings for a guy. How do you expect them to do anything while in such an incapacitated state? That is why it is up to the guy to form sentences and use spoken, unambiguous language.

 

You wait for a girl to hit on you and she will probably just trip over something and fall down on the way over to you, and make a fool of herself. By then she will hate you anyways, because you didn't hit on her...So it won't really matter.

 

But no, you guys go ahead and try to go against the patterns of mother nature. Good luck with that.

[Keenly]

A woman approach a man? Forget about it, its just not going to happen. Or we would have to redefine "approach".

 

Yes, I know. It is every young man's central point of anger and frustration in life. *Why don't women just verbally and explicitly show interest?*

 

Women truthfully become totally retarded when they have feelings for a guy. How do you expect them to do anything while in such an incapacitated state? That is why it is up to the guy to form sentences and use spoken, unambiguous language.

 

You wait for a girl to hit on you and she will probably just trip over something and fall down on the way over to you, and make a fool of herself. By then she will hate you anyways, because you didn't hit on her...So it won't really matter.

 

But no, you guys go ahead and try to go against the patterns of mother nature. Good luck with that.

 

 

Both sexes are equally retarded when faced with strong attraction.

 

I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Potz4prez]

I like men who can take charge. .

 

What does this mean in your opinion? I'm honestly curious.

 

I dated a girl like that, and it just got annoying always having to "take charge" while she was afraid to offer opinions or make even the slightest decision.

 

Maybe it has to do with this:

 

Women truthfully become totally retarded when they have feelings for a guy. How do you expect them to do anything while in such an incapacitated state? That is why it is up to the guy to form sentences and use spoken, unambiguous language.

 

She was like a retarded baby giraffe...

[somedude81]

The rules don't have to change, nor do I ever see them changing.

 

All I'd like to see is women going a little bit more out of their way to show a guy that she is interested.

 

Women are far too subtle and their signs go right over my head.

 

Also, the ones who I do think are interested in me, usually end up being taken. I'd wish that changed.

[xxoo]

I'd feel like I'm taking the man's role, and him the woman's role in the mating dance. Cold shower. It isn't a matter of fearing rejection, but simply disinterest in being in a relationship missing the dynamics that create spark for me.

[Woggle]

Women fought against men's roles and women's roles in the 70s and now they want to bring them back. Can you see why men are confused?

[Keenly]

Can some wine clarify what exactly feminine gender roles are these days?

 

 

 

Because in my mind, that list is like 4 items long.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

What does this mean in your opinion? I'm honestly curious.

 

I dated a girl like that, and it just got annoying always having to "take charge" while she was afraid to offer opinions or make even the slightest decision.

 

Maybe it has to do with this:

 

 

 

She was like a retarded baby giraffe...

It just means I like men who have a little boldness about them and aren't afraid to show interest. The shy, timid thing doesn't work for me. I'm not afraid to make decisions or offer opinions; that's no issue for me at all. I'm just not a fan of the guy who stares at me in class or from across the bar but never goes beyond that.

[xxoo]

Women fought against men's roles and women's roles in the 70s and now they want to bring them back. Can you see why men are confused?

 

My personal dating preferences are not a feminist position. I support couples enjoying roles as they see fit, as I do for myself!

 

And that was 40 years ago. Things develop, change, nuance over time.

[xxoo]

Can some wine clarify what exactly feminine gender roles are these days?

 

 

 

Because in my mind, that list is like 4 items long.

 

Here's the concept: we are not all the same. Some of us enjoy traditional gender roles, and others do not, and that's ok.

[Keenly]

Here's the concept: we are not all the same. Some of us enjoy traditional gender roles, and others do not, and that's ok.

 

Absolutely.

 

 

But I ask because I really don't know. Its a target moving so fast I can't spot it.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Women fought against men's roles and women's roles in the 70s and now they want to bring them back. Can you see why men are confused?

 

No, not really. Women fought against being forced into "feminine" fields and pursuits like caregiving, childrearing or "office work" and shut out of tradionally "masculine" fields and pursuits like STEM or chosing not to have children at all. They fought against being made to feel bad for pursuing a career before family, etc. They didn't fight against human sexuality.

 

Jesus, it's like some men are hellbent on trying to use First Wave feminism of the 60s as some sort of punishment today. Women wanting equal pay for equal work, etc, has nothing to do with women still wanting men to approach first. Nor men preferring to actually do the approaching.

 

Men have fought for equality and against traditional gender roles as well but you don't see them lining up to become stay at home dads either.