Dating a girl with major commitment issues, do I give up???

[Downtown]

Augman, you are fortunate to have attracted the attention of Emelia. I agree with everything she said here. As Emelia explained, you are describing behavior that arises from core damage in early childhood, probably before age five. You are not describing a phobia you can help your GF with.

Every part of her childhood has pointed to abandonment. Her ex cheated on her after a year of being together. She wont even let her mother near her because of how terrible she was. A very bad childhood and literally abandoned by every single person she knew.

Her fear of abandonment likely has nothing to do with the cheating ex and everything to do with the emotionally abusive mother who prevented the GF from ever learning how to trust other people.

 

I know this can be helped, if she is willing to let me help her.

If what you're describing is accurate, she can be helped by professionals but not by you. One reason is that she is unable to trust you no matter what you do. This means that, the more she loves you, the greater and more painful will be her fear of abandonment. This likely explains why she can be so intimate and loving around you at the very beginning of your relationship, before it turned serious. Sadly, you cannot teach her how to trust. She must learn to first trust herself. Until she is able to do that, she cannot trust other people.

 

Another reason you cannot help her is that her great fear of abandonment likely is matched in intensity by a great fear of engulfment. Due to emotional abuse by her mother when she was a young child, she probably never developed a strong self image. If so, she will feel a powerful need to seek out a male partner who has a strong personality that will center and ground her -- giving her a sense of purpose and direction. Yet, when she gets exactly that, she will feel suffocated and "controlled" by that man.

 

If she has both of those fears, the main problem is that they both lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from triggering one fear, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other. Hence, when you find that you are suffocating and engulfing her, you will move away to give her breathing space.

 

In doing so, however, you will trigger her other fear -- that of abandonment. As you rush back to her to demonstrate your devotion and to calm her abandonment fear, you will start triggering her other fear. If this is true for your GF, there is no safe midpoints position where you can avoid triggering both fears. You therefore will always be in a lose-lose situation when these two fears exist.

 

But should I even try??? She expects me to talk to her within a few days after our "break" and I am torn on what to do.

I strongly urge you to read the thread Emelia provides a link for above. If the behaviors described there sound very familiar, I would recommend you not date this young woman.

 

I am NOT the person to give up or abandon anyone.

Believe me, Emelia and I understand that far too well. Like you, we are loyal to a fault. Being "excessive caregivers," our problem is not that we want to help people. Rather, it is that we keep helping when doing so is to our great detriment -- and when there is not a snowball's chance in hell of our doing any good. In my case, I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists (and 3 MCs) every week for 15 years. As with you, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema to me. But that is exactly what you should be doing if you believe your GF has the two strong fears I described above.

[Augman]

Augman, you are fortunate to have attracted the attention of Emelia. I agree with everything she said here. As Emelia explained, you are describing behavior that arises from core damage in early childhood, probably before age five. You are not describing a phobia you can help your GF with.Her fear of abandonment likely has nothing to do with the cheating ex and everything to do with the emotionally abusive mother who prevented the GF from ever learning how to trust other people.

 

If what you're describing is accurate, she can be helped by professionals but not by you. One reason is that she is unable to trust you no matter what you do. This means that, the more she loves you, the greater and more painful will be her fear of abandonment. This likely explains why she can be so intimate and loving around you at the very beginning of your relationship, before it turned serious. Sadly, you cannot teach her how to trust. She must learn to first trust herself. Until she is able to do that, she cannot trust other people.

 

Another reason you cannot help her is that her great fear of abandonment likely is matched in intensity by a great fear of engulfment. Due to emotional abuse by her mother when she was a young child, she probably never developed a strong self image. If so, she will feel a powerful need to seek out a male partner who has a strong personality that will center and ground her -- giving her a sense of purpose and direction. Yet, when she gets exactly that, she will feel suffocated and "controlled" by that man.

 

If she has both of those fears, the main problem is that they both lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, as you back away from triggering one fear, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other. Hence, when you find that you are suffocating and engulfing her, you will move away to give her breathing space.

 

In doing so, however, you will trigger her other fear -- that of abandonment. As you rush back to her to demonstrate your devotion and to calm her abandonment fear, you will start triggering her other fear. If this is true for your GF, there is no safe midpoints position where you can avoid triggering both fears. You therefore will always be in a lose-lose situation when these two fears exist.

 

I strongly urge you to read the thread Emelia provides a link for above. If the behaviors described there sound very familiar, I would recommend you not date this young woman.

 

Believe me, Emelia and I understand that far too well. Like you, we are loyal to a fault. Being "excessive caregivers," our problem is not that we want to help people. Rather, it is that we keep helping when doing so is to our great detriment -- and when there is not a snowball's chance in hell of our doing any good. In my case, I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists (and 3 MCs) every week for 15 years. As with you, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema to me. But that is exactly what you should be doing if you believe your GF has the two strong fears I described above.

 

Wow... I don't think it's even possible for me to comprehend the pain you must have gone through with your exW. 15 years as your wife.. that's only 3 years away from my age. That means I should probably listen up being you know more about this than I ever will.

 

Back onto subject, I read the entire post Emilia linked, and what you say about BPDers make perfect sense, and unfortunately the childhood trauma in this girl's life points straight to her having BPD.

 

I feel as though things stick out with this girl however, and just so we are clear, this is just my perspective, I could be wrong.

 

Firstly, she does not seem as immature as the person in that link described. She seems self aware that she has a problem and aware of what caused it. I'll re-iterate the one night I described in my post where she was crying over the phone, she told me she has a fear of commitment and cannot take our relationship to the next level. She knows that is what I wanted so she told me we should just be friends. She said the last thing she wanted to do was to lead me on, and end up hurting me even more than she already has. The next night is when we had a long talk about her issue and she told me everything about her childhood and how losing the only person she trusted (her mother) broke her ability to trust. Near the end of her telling me her life story she said "I'm telling you this because I want you to know this is why I am how I am, and its a part of me" I cant explain how much it hurt to hear such a nice girl tell me this.

 

From my perspective and how she said it, she basically told me she has a problem. she knows what caused her problem, and she doesn't want to hurt me because she knows exactly what I want is what she is afraid of, and would rather not suck me into her problem. She is a very loving person and has never said ANYTHING bad to me. Not one single thing.

 

I am so dumbfounded by this because the post linked to me that I read described a woman that seemed eager to put down and destroy her partner. The woman in the link given also seemed unaware she had major emotional issues, let alone being aware of what caused it and accepting its a part of her like my girl has done. This fact is what gave me hope that the girl I am talking about has a better chance at breaking through this, even though Emelia said multiple times that it cannot be fixed. Why is my girl so self-aware, surprisingly mature, and caring for me about this whole situation? Does this mean she is closer to being able to fix her problem than most?

 

I'm not necessarily looking for reasons to hold on to this girl, as I've been told over and over by people that have already "been there, done that" to move on and let her figure it out herself, so I should probably listen. That does not change my feelings for this girl, however, and it hurts me to see this girl in pain because, as I said, she is so loving and appeared to be looking out for me at least partially when she ended things.

 

Doesn't her mature behavior seem odd when describing typical BPD where people suffering from it act as a child constantly causing tantrums and not knowing what they want? Where-as my girl even told me once "I don't follow logic, and you won't understand why I do certain things." She is even aware of the side-affects of her fear of commitment, which you described in the linked post where you said people suffering from this BPD or fear of commitment do not think logically. Once again, how is my girl so self aware?

[DArtagnan2]

Are you sure you are 18? You sound more mature then most 18 year olds I have ever met.

 

bottom line, if you think you can only be her friend, and ONLY her friend from this point forward, with no hopes it will lead to more, then be that friend to her. She seems like she may be getting to a point where she needs to talk about it. I believe she feels she found some trust in you so she can go there. However, regardless of how much she shares, at this time, and probably for the future time, it isn't going to turn in to an exclusive relationship for you. Especially when you decide to cross that line and be ONLY her friend. You can harbor feelings for her, most times, us guys do that , but you have to be Ok with the fact there will be nothing but friendship.

 

Also, once you make that step, you can not continue to bring up the topic of you and she being in a relationship. She has told you what she wants, regardless of whatever issues or diagnosis may come up. You two have had that discussion, at length a couple of times. So know, if and when you decide to tell her you will continue to be her friend and support her, help her, that bringing up any kind of feelings or relationship talk about you and her after that, could have her cutting you off altogether. She doesn't want to broach that, at all.

 

Im the type that looks at what I am capable of doing or wanting to do and think that others do the same. Like you, I've done some soul searching many times and have made changes based on situations in my life and the soul searching I needed to do in order to get past that situation. You may think the same. So I can only suggest that if you do decide to stay friends, you can't think that way. You mentioned sharing the information on what you found because of what YOU think may be going on. That maybe sharing that will somehow hit something within her to want to make a change. But you have to know, that not everyone works that way. She may even find it insulting that you are making some diagnose about her. So just be careful with that.

 

As I said earlier, you sound way more mature than most 18 years old. You are self discovering and learning how you want to be and live your life. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders, a soul and a Big heart. All that will steer you in the right direction as long as you continue to grow, be open to learning and able to see whats real versus what isn't.

 

Stay true to you.

[morbot_k]

Give her space. She asked you for it. Trust her in her process. She needs to move slowly to get to the same place you are. Not everyone moves at the same pace.

 

If you really like her, be the man who is patient and strong. Women will love that. Be the guy who after a few weeks doesn't "need" anything from her. You can't say someone has commitment issues after a few weeks. You two still don't know one another. What's the rush?

[Augman]

Give her space. She asked you for it.

 

I told her I was going NC to think things over, and have been NC for a few days now. I'm giving her all the space in the world right now even though I didn't at first.

 

You can't say someone has commitment issues after a few weeks. You two still don't know one another. What's the rush?

 

I didn't say there was a rush. Fact of the matter is she broke it off telling me she had commitment issues and she couldn't take our relationship to the next level. I didn't demand for us to advance the relationship.. She told me she loved what we had going so I simply mentioned I was considering the idea of us being exclusive (Nothing major, and I certainly didn't rush things; I simply brought up the idea). and that's when she went ice cold for a couple days and eventually said she couldn't handle taking things to the next stage because of her commitment issues.

 

After the ordeal I told her I was fully willing to wait however long she needed to feel comfortable enough to advance our relationship. Her reply was that she didn't want to hurt me anymore (since I was honestly hurt when she suddenly went LC after showering me in affection, it was so sudden and scared me), and that we would be better off friends since she wasn't ready to move the relationship onward.

[Augman]

Are you sure you are 18? You sound more mature then most 18 year olds I have ever met.

 

bottom line, if you think you can only be her friend, and ONLY her friend from this point forward, with no hopes it will lead to more, then be that friend to her. She seems like she may be getting to a point where she needs to talk about it. I believe she feels she found some trust in you so she can go there. However, regardless of how much she shares, at this time, and probably for the future time, it isn't going to turn in to an exclusive relationship for you. Especially when you decide to cross that line and be ONLY her friend. You can harbor feelings for her, most times, us guys do that , but you have to be Ok with the fact there will be nothing but friendship.

 

Also, once you make that step, you can not continue to bring up the topic of you and she being in a relationship. She has told you what she wants, regardless of whatever issues or diagnosis may come up. You two have had that discussion, at length a couple of times. So know, if and when you decide to tell her you will continue to be her friend and support her, help her, that bringing up any kind of feelings or relationship talk about you and her after that, could have her cutting you off altogether. She doesn't want to broach that, at all.

 

Im the type that looks at what I am capable of doing or wanting to do and think that others do the same. Like you, I've done some soul searching many times and have made changes based on situations in my life and the soul searching I needed to do in order to get past that situation. You may think the same. So I can only suggest that if you do decide to stay friends, you can't think that way. You mentioned sharing the information on what you found because of what YOU think may be going on. That maybe sharing that will somehow hit something within her to want to make a change. But you have to know, that not everyone works that way. She may even find it insulting that you are making some diagnose about her. So just be careful with that.

 

As I said earlier, you sound way more mature than most 18 years old. You are self discovering and learning how you want to be and live your life. You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders, a soul and a Big heart. All that will steer you in the right direction as long as you continue to grow, be open to learning and able to see whats real versus what isn't.

 

Stay true to you.

 

Yes I'm sure I'm 18 and your words are very kind. I have no doubts that my good nature will end up rewarding me.

 

As for her... she even said herself that she trusts me more than anyone else she knows, and that she DOES want me in her life.

 

I found it so hard to believe that she shut off all of her feelings for me within a day or two, I honestly didn't think that was possible. According to studies that is exactly what people do when they suffer from a major fear of commitment and it really hurt to be honest.

 

Unlike her I'm not capable of shutting off my feelings for her, so IF I decide I'm ok with being just friends, it will not be easy at all. In the perfect world I would like to date her and be THAT trustworthy person at the same time, but I realize that's probably a fairy tale world of mine .

 

Talking about this on this forum has really helped me figure out what's going on and understand why she is thinking the way she is thinking. It kills me that such an amazing person can be tied down by this fear of hers to the point of sabotaging our great relationship and convincing herself that we are not right together because of meaningless reasons she made up as a scapegoat.

 

However, at the end of the day I'm still not positive what I should tell her. Every other time I felt comfortable opening up to her about how I felt it did nothing but dig me a deeper hole. I KNOW she is a great person underneath her issues that were put upon her by her piece of crap parents, and we had such a great thing going for us.

 

I have two planned options to go with after my attempt to date her again fails (I'm going to assume it will at this point)

 

1. Tell her I'm not here to be her physiologist but she has an issue that is affecting her life until she dedicates herself to getting over it. Then leaving her alone to do whatever she wants with that information. (Like you said, some people take this news offensively thinking she is being diagnosed, but I don't believe she would) This option is more-so letting her know she needs to fix something and then moving on with myself so I don't get hurt farther.

 

2. Let her know I'm here for good as that trustworthy person (her friend ONLY) and that I am here to talk with her about her issues to help anyway I can. This is more-so what SHE wants as of right now, but I'm not 100% convinced I can do this without it hurting me by not being "with" her.

 

But... and this is a big "but"... I WOULD like to take one shot at my fairy tale of dating and building with her as that trustworthy person at the same time... I'm not even sure at this point whether she can get over this issue according to Downtown and Emilia which I'm going to trust since they have been through this longer than I could imagine, but at the same time if I have learned anything about dating it's that everything is situational, and requires on the spot thought. There is no guide book, and I think my girl is truly a good person that can get over this if she puts forth the effort. SOOO lets just pretend that is possible... What is my best route if I want the best of both worlds of dating her while building her trust?

[spiderowl]

It seems to me there are two possibilities:

 

1) She doesn't really fancy you but likes you to be around to listen to her and to cuddle;

2) She does fancy you but panicked the moment you got clingy and demanding (I don't mean demanding as in bossy, but demanding as in wanting something from her she's not ready to give).

 

Either situation can be improved. You just back off, see her only occasionally and then when you do, have fun, enjoy her company, but don't focus on her too much and build relationships elsewhere. She will either realise what she's missing or realise that you are entitled to do this as she's not offering you what you need. Backing off creates a void and a certain mystery. Let her come to you.

 

The minute you put pressure on her for commitment so early on in this 'relationship', she will back off and panic. Most young women would when they've only been out of dates a few times.

[Downtown]

What you say about BPDers make perfect sense, and unfortunately the childhood trauma in this girl's life points straight to her having BPD.

Augman, you cannot know that she "has BPD," which implies she has the full-blown disorder. Only a professional can make that determination. You nonetheless are capable of spotting any strong BPD warning signs that occur. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD.

 

Likewise, you could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when and if they occur -- if you take a little time to learn what to look for.

 

Significantly, your posts do NOT describe many BPD traits for your GF. Yet, because you've been dating her for only two weeks, I would not expect strong BPD traits to be evident even if she is a BPDer. BPDers typically do not show their traits during the infatuation period, which generally lasts 3 to 6 months. That infatuation will convince a BPDer that you are safe, that you can be trusted, and that you are the nearly perfect man who won't abandon her. The infatuation therefore holds her two fears at bay -- but they will return when the infatuation starts to evaporate.

 

The reason for suggesting you read about BPD traits, then, was NOT because you were describing most of them. Rather, the reason rests on two things you said. One is that your GF has a great fear of abandonment, which is one of the main defining traits for BPD. That is, it is one of the traits used in diagnosing it. Having that one fear, however, does not imply she has BPD because having the disorder requires her to have at least 5 of the 9 BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. This is one reason I suggested you keep an eye out for a fear of engulfment (people with strong BPD traits typically have both of those fears).

 

The other reason for bringing this to your attention is that you said she was emotionally abused by her mother and fully abandoned by her father in childhood. Granted, this does NOT imply she has BPD because most abused children grow up without developing BPD. Such abuse, however, greatly raises the risk for doing so. This is why 70% of BPDers report that they had been abandoned or abused by a parent in childhood.

 

Hence, because of these two factors -- i.e., strong abandonment fear and childhood abuse and abandonment -- I thought it would be prudent for you to familiarize yourself with BPD traits in case most of them start revealing themselves several months from now. Moreover, even if this GF does not have strong BPD traits, you likely are at risk of meeting another woman who does.

 

I say this because, like Emilia and me, you seem to be an excessive caregiver who is drawn to people who desperately need you (as usually will be evident in the way the relationship starts off intensely and with fireworks only a few weeks in). We caregivers tend to walk right on past all the emotionally available people (BORING) until we find someone who desperately needs us. The reason is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).

 

I'm not even sure at this point whether she can get over this issue according to Downtown and Emilia which I'm going to trust since they have been through this longer than I could imagine.

Importantly, Emilia and I CANNOT know whether your GF has BPD. For one thing, we are not psychologists. For another, we've never even met your GF. We therefore never claimed that she is a BPDer. Indeed, we are not even claiming that her BPD traits are strong. We cannot tell you that.

 

What we can tell you is that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone exhibits all the traits to some degree. Moreover, even the healthy adults will temporarily get flareups of their BPD traits when under enormous stress or when getting strong hormone changes -- as commonly occurs during the teens due to the hormone surge caused by puberty.

 

This is why so many teens behave like full-blown BPDers that therapists usually are reluctant to diagnose it until the clients have reached the age of 18. At issue, then, is not whether your GF exhibits most BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits most of these BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. And, because you've only been dating her for two weeks, it is extremely unlikely that you know either. Yet, for your own protection, it is prudent that you learn what BPD red flags look like so you can spot any that occur with this GF -- or with your subsequent GFs.

 

If you have the white-knight syndrome -- as Emilia and I suspect -- it is in your best interests to learn to recognize the warning signs for BPD, NPD, AvPD, and ASPD. Like BPDers, people having strong traits of AvPD (Avoidant PD) have a strong fear of abandonment and rejection (but not the fear of engulfment). So AvPD traits are other red flags to consider.

 

She does not seem as immature as the person in that link described. She seems self aware that she has a problem and aware of what caused it.... She is a very loving person and has never said ANYTHING bad to me. Not one single thing.... I am so dumbfounded by this because the post linked to me that I read described a woman that seemed eager to put down and destroy her partner.

As I noted above, I would not expect any strong BPD traits to be revealed just two weeks into a dating relationship. The purpose of learning how to spot BPD red flags is to be able to recognize them in the future, not now.

 

Why is my girl so self-aware, surprisingly mature, and caring for me about this whole situation? Does this mean she is closer to being able to fix her problem than most?

As I noted above, her exceptional self awareness may simply mean she does not have strong BPD traits. I've never seen any hard figures but, if I had to guess, I would estimate that perhaps only 5% of BPDers are sufficiently self aware to recognize they have strong BPD traits. And, of that small group, perhaps a third have sufficient ego strength to do anything about it (i.e., stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference). Hence, the likelihood of a BPDer working hard in therapy to fix her issues may be around 1%. But, again, your GF may not even have strong BPD traits.

 

Doesn't her mature behavior seem odd when describing typical BPD where people suffering from it act as a child constantly causing tantrums and not knowing what they want?

It would "seem odd" if we knew your GF has BPD. But we don't know that.

 

Where-as my girl even told me once "I don't follow logic, and you won't understand why I do certain things."

If your GF does have strong BPD traits, this behavior is to be expected. Because BPDers have little control over their emotions, they frequently experience intense feelings that distort their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Moreover, those intense feelings cause the BPDer's judgment to go out the window (as is true for any adult experiencing intense feelings). The result is that the conscious mind rejects logic and relies, instead, on intuition and feelings -- in the same way that young children do.

[Augman]

Augman, you cannot know that she "has BPD," which implies she has the full-blown disorder. Only a professional can make that determination. You nonetheless are capable of spotting any strong BPD warning signs that occur. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD.

 

Likewise, you could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when and if they occur -- if you take a little time to learn what to look for.

 

Significantly, your posts do NOT describe many BPD traits for your GF. Yet, because you've been dating her for only two weeks, I would not expect strong BPD traits to be evident even if she is a BPDer. BPDers typically do not show their traits during the infatuation period, which generally lasts 3 to 6 months. That infatuation will convince a BPDer that you are safe, that you can be trusted, and that you are the nearly perfect man who won't abandon her. The infatuation therefore holds her two fears at bay -- but they will return when the infatuation starts to evaporate.

 

The reason for suggesting you read about BPD traits, then, was NOT because you were describing most of them. Rather, the reason rests on two things you said. One is that your GF has a great fear of abandonment, which is one of the main defining traits for BPD. That is, it is one of the traits used in diagnosing it. Having that one fear, however, does not imply she has BPD because having the disorder requires her to have at least 5 of the 9 BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. This is one reason I suggested you keep an eye out for a fear of engulfment (people with strong BPD traits typically have both of those fears).

 

The other reason for bringing this to your attention is that you said she was emotionally abused by her mother and fully abandoned by her father in childhood. Granted, this does NOT imply she has BPD because most abused children grow up without developing BPD. Such abuse, however, greatly raises the risk for doing so. This is why 70% of BPDers report that they had been abandoned or abused by a parent in childhood.

 

Hence, because of these two factors -- i.e., strong abandonment fear and childhood abuse and abandonment -- I thought it would be prudent for you to familiarize yourself with BPD traits in case most of them start revealing themselves several months from now. Moreover, even if this GF does not have strong BPD traits, you likely are at risk of meeting another woman who does.

 

I say this because, like Emilia and me, you seem to be an excessive caregiver who is drawn to people who desperately need you (as usually will be evident in the way the relationship starts off intensely and with fireworks only a few weeks in). We caregivers tend to walk right on past all the emotionally available people (BORING) until we find someone who desperately needs us. The reason is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).

 

Importantly, Emilia and I CANNOT know whether your GF has BPD. For one thing, we are not psychologists. For another, we've never even met your GF. We therefore never claimed that she is a BPDer. Indeed, we are not even claiming that her BPD traits are strong. We cannot tell you that.

 

What we can tell you is that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone exhibits all the traits to some degree. Moreover, even the healthy adults will temporarily get flareups of their BPD traits when under enormous stress or when getting strong hormone changes -- as commonly occurs during the teens due to the hormone surge caused by puberty.

 

This is why so many teens behave like full-blown BPDers that therapists usually are reluctant to diagnose it until the clients have reached the age of 18. At issue, then, is not whether your GF exhibits most BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits most of these BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. And, because you've only been dating her for two weeks, it is extremely unlikely that you know either. Yet, for your own protection, it is prudent that you learn what BPD red flags look like so you can spot any that occur with this GF -- or with your subsequent GFs.

 

If you have the white-knight syndrome -- as Emilia and I suspect -- it is in your best interests to learn to recognize the warning signs for BPD, NPD, AvPD, and ASPD. Like BPDers, people having strong traits of AvPD (Avoidant PD) have a strong fear of abandonment and rejection (but not the fear of engulfment). So AvPD traits are other red flags to consider.

 

As I noted above, I would not expect any strong BPD traits to be revealed just two weeks into a dating relationship. The purpose of learning how to spot BPD red flags is to be able to recognize them in the future, not now.

 

As I noted above, her exceptional self awareness may simply mean she does not have strong BPD traits. I've never seen any hard figures but, if I had to guess, I would estimate that perhaps only 5% of BPDers are sufficiently self aware to recognize they have strong BPD traits. And, of that small group, perhaps a third have sufficient ego strength to do anything about it (i.e., stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference). Hence, the likelihood of a BPDer working hard in therapy to fix her issues may be around 1%. But, again, your GF may not even have strong BPD traits.

 

It would "seem odd" if we knew your GF has BPD. But we don't know that.

 

If your GF does have strong BPD traits, this behavior is to be expected. Because BPDers have little control over their emotions, they frequently experience intense feelings that distort their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations. Moreover, those intense feelings cause the BPDer's judgment to go out the window (as is true for any adult experiencing intense feelings). The result is that the conscious mind rejects logic and relies, instead, on intuition and feelings -- in the same way that young children do.

 

That clears a lot of things up, thank you. I was under the impression you were giving me a vibe she had major issues and I should be running for my life! I see now you are just looking out for me and telling me what I should be looking for in the future. I wondered about feelings changing once out of the infatuation.

 

From what you are explaining, there are levels of BPD in every person: it just depends if they are major enough to be called true BPD.

 

I'm not going to pretend I know this girl as if I've known her my whole life, but in the same respect I think I know her well enough to make guesses on if her issues are major or not.

 

You said yourself I cannot determine this, nor can you since you haven't even met her. I can, however, make guesses. Based on what I know about her I'm going to assume her issues are not necessarily THAT major for a few reasons.

1. You mentioned as teenagers you show more of these signs than normal anyways.

2. You mentioned stress increasing this behavior (With her recent move, and her mother invading her life as she is trying to keep her out because she is a negative influence has taken a toll on her and has caused some serious stress recently).

3. as of right now she does not show major signs (even though as you said this could change after infatuation has ended)

 

Now like you said, I do realize these signs could increase IF we were to move the relationship on (Which as of right now, is not happening) and these signs could become more apparent, but I'm also trying to factor in her recent stress and straight up being a teenager as possibly throwing false positives into the picture, regardless of her childhood pointing to her having a higher chance for BPD.

 

You have provided me with a plethora of information on the subject, so I thank you. I realize these type of women might be common in my future because of my subconscious choosing them, so thanks to you I am now more prepared to keep an eye out for these "red flags", but also not to take them 100% seriously as many factors go into these signs appearing, especially the fact that EVERYONE shows them from time to time.

 

I'm re-iterating what you are saying just so I am sure I understand you

 

With this information, I now have to figure out what I am going to say to this girl... I have no idea. We have been NC for almost a week because I wanted to figure out what is going on (hence why I am here) and to give her the space she asked for.

 

It is now approaching that time to talk to her again, and I'm worried anything I say will dig me a deeper hole. With my new information of the subject I would LOVE to date her farther but she has cut that off for the moment mostly because I scared her off by pushing WAY to hard because I couldn't figure out why she was feeling the things she did. Now I get it more and regret pushing her away. As mentioned, making her feel like she was being diagnosed could end badly, so I'm not sure telling her she needs to work on her issues will work out to well .

 

Everyone says give her the space she asked for. OK, now that's in progress and I need to know what to say to her if I plan on dating her again. I don't want to scare her off more, but I also want to let her know somehow that I now have a better understanding of her feelings and wish to work with her on them. At this moment I cannot really let her come to me as others suggested, since I told her I wanted the break, and we were both in the understanding that we would talk after I was done thinking things over... not her (even though she obviously wanted the break too).

[Augman]

It seems to me there are two possibilities:

 

1) She doesn't really fancy you but likes you to be around to listen to her and to cuddle;

2) She does fancy you but panicked the moment you got clingy and demanding (I don't mean demanding as in bossy, but demanding as in wanting something from her she's not ready to give).

 

Either situation can be improved. You just back off, see her only occasionally and then when you do, have fun, enjoy her company, but don't focus on her too much and build relationships elsewhere. She will either realise what she's missing or realise that you are entitled to do this as she's not offering you what you need. Backing off creates a void and a certain mystery. Let her come to you.

 

The minute you put pressure on her for commitment so early on in this 'relationship', she will back off and panic. Most young women would when they've only been out of dates a few times.

 

Very good thoughts, I'll take that all into consideration.

 

Also thanks for helping with my ultimate question of, what do I do now? lol

 

big thanks!

[Augman]

Also this is to anyone following along and if you know where I stand right now, I was thinking of saying something along the lines of "After our break I have a better understanding of your feelings and I'd love to date you again at a pace we will both enjoy." or SOMETHING like that... just a thought.

 

> I'm trying to tell her I understand her feelings WITHOUT telling her I think she has issues she has to fix.

 

> I'm trying to get her to date me again WITH a reason for her to have a change in heart.

[Downtown]

I'm also trying to factor in her recent stress and straight up being a teenager as possibly throwing false positives into the picture, regardless of her childhood pointing to her having a higher chance for BPD. You have provided me with a plethora of information on the subject, so I thank you.

As Dartagnan observed, you don't write or think like any 18 year old I've ever met. Indeed, the most fascinating thing about your story is not your perplexing situation with the pretty girl but, rather, your sentence structures. Sounds like you will be ripping through undergraduate school and won't be intellectually challenged until you reach grad school. So please be patient, Augman.

[Augman]

Everyone says give her the space she asked for. OK, now that's in progress and I need to know what to say to her if I plan on dating her again. I don't want to scare her off more, but I also want to let her know somehow that I now have a better understanding of her feelings and wish to work with her on them. At this moment I cannot really let her come to me as others suggested, since I told her I wanted the break, and we were both in the understanding that we would talk after I was done thinking things over... not her (even though she obviously wanted the break too).

 

I would still love some insight on this. I know I appear very impatient on this but like I said it has been almost a week since I have said a word to her. Every-time I open up to her I dig myself a hole, so I am clueless on what to tell her

 

Also this is to anyone following along and if you know where I stand right now, I was thinking of saying something along the lines of "After our break I have a better understanding of your feelings and I'd love to date you again at a pace we will both enjoy." or SOMETHING like that... just a thought.

 

> I'm trying to tell her I understand her feelings WITHOUT telling her I think she has issues she has to fix.

 

> I'm trying to get her to date me again WITH a reason for her to have a change in heart.

 

This was my only idea.

 

As Dartagnan observed, you don't write or think like any 18 year old I've ever met. Indeed, the most fascinating thing about your story is not your perplexing situation with the pretty girl but, rather, your sentence structures. Sounds like you will be ripping through undergraduate school and won't be intellectually challenged until you reach grad school. So please be patient, Augman.

 

Thank you for seeing who I am and treating me as such, but just some food for thought: I despise reading for fun, writing for fun, and english class! I just think of myself as a logical thinker.

 

After listening to you in this thread, and in the other one that was linked, I see you dedicate a portion of your time to giving your knowledge to others for the sake of helping, so for that I am grateful. I'm sure others a grateful too, and i just wanted you to know that in-case you haven't heard it in a while. You are a person I wish I knew in real life, friend

 

Back on topic, however, my feelings are still very real and strong, and this situation is important to me even knowing I shouldn't be concerning myself with issues like this. I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from, and any farther help on what to do next and/or what I quoted above from me that you could take a second look at would be great!

 

P.S. I'm impatient to jump into a relationship easily, i realize that, but it's because I am finally fully ready for one. I have my ducks in a row and I'm ready to commit as terrible as that sounds coming from an 18 y/o. The REAL challenge is finding women that think similar to me and are also ready in the same way I am (That are my age, mind you)... I feel like its impossible

[Downtown]

I also want to let her know somehow that I now have a better understanding of her feelings and wish to work with her on them.

Augman, if you are determined to pursue her, I believe your proposed language ("I now have a better understanding...") is fine. It sends the signal you want, i.e., that something has changed for the better so it may be worth her while to take a chance on you again.

 

The language to avoid saying is "I understand how you feel." Unless you've been abandoned in childhood by your father and abused for years by your mother, you cannot possibly know how she is feeling. Saying that phrase therefore would be as insulting and condescending as telling it to a person who has just lost a child. Unless you've been there and done that, you don't ever want to use that expression. The language you propose, however, avoids that trap and sounds appropriate.

 

This was my only idea.

Good idea, IMO, given your determination to pursue her.

 

I'm thinking if she COULD get past [her commitment fear], she would be back to her normal self that loves to be around me.

Perhaps so. Yet, if her atrocious childhood has caused her to have strong PD traits, what you are seeing IS HER NORMAL SELF. That is, the instant flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (icy withdrawal) IS the norm for her.

 

I dont think she realizes that her commitment phobia is the root cause of all of her issues, (bi-polar, and ...).

Bipolar? Where did this idea come from? I just noticed that you mentioned it once but then never brought it up again.

 

Every part of her childhood has pointed to abandonment. Her ex cheated on her after a year of being together. She wont even let her mother near her because of how terrible she was. A very bad childhood and literally abandoned by every single person she knew.

If you are successful in your objective -- i.e., dating someone having a strong abandonment fear -- you likely will find yourself skating on thin ice and very far from shore. The notion that you can overcome such a fear with reassurance and expressions of love is a Hollywood fantasy. Indeed, our entire culture continually reinforces the mistaken view that "love heals all."

 

When a woman has a strong abandonment fear, it is extremely unlikely that your love will make a dent in a fear she's been carrying since childhood. That fear arises from low self esteem and an inability to trust others. Hence, if she has such a strong fear, it likely will become evident in several months in the form of irrational jealousy and repeated efforts to control you (i.e., to reduce the chance of your leaving). Or, if the fear is severe, she will be in so much pain that she will preemptively abandon you to prevent you from doing it to her.

 

If she doesn't abandon you first, there will be the endless $h-!t testing to find out if you really do love her. Passing one test will demonstrate your love AT THE MOMENT. It will do nothing, however, to address her fear that you will suddenly stop loving her the day you see the "real her," finding out how empty she feels inside. This is why the testing will never end. As you pass one test, the only result is that the bar will be raised higher the next time she insists you jump over it.

 

I have my ducks in a row and I'm ready to commit as terrible as that sounds coming from an 18 y/o. The REAL challenge is finding women that think similar to me and are also ready in the same way I am.

The reason we older folks shudder when an 18 y/o speaks of finding "commitment" and "someone who thinks similar to me" is that we realize people generally change greatly between 18 and 25. This means that it is very unlikely you and your GF will be thinking the same in 7 years. (And, if she has strong PD traits, she likely will be thinking very differently in only 4 to 6 months.) Hence, if you are tired of playing the field, "commitment" at your age is best thought of as "serial monogamy," where you exclusively date one girl after the other -- being very careful to avoid a situation (i.e., pregnancy) that makes moving on extremely difficult.

[meeji]

Run... I wouldn 't suggest hanging around and waiting for this girl to get it together.

 

It isn't your problem to work out and you deserve a better situation.

[Gloria25]

Dude, you're barely a teen...not even a real adult. Why are you taking dating so seriously?

 

You have almost another decade to settle with someone....take this time to have fun (no, not sex). Go out, meet different chicks, do fun stuff....don't be so serious!!!

 

This is your time to meet people and by the time the decade is over hopefully you'll meet someone you would like to settle down with one day.

 

Girls your age are going to be a mix of emotions cuz duh, they are young and are in the process of figuring out what they want out of life too.

[todreaminblue]

i think that you are young and not that you are not able to deal with this sort of issue...i dont think at your age you should have to......be bogged down and stuck in a difficult and time consuming relationship......when these years spent in difficulty and uncertainty for you actually shape how you feel in love later in life.................deb

[Itspointless]

Or, if the fear is severe, she will be in so much pain that she will preemptively abandon you to prevent you from doing it to her.

Augman, it does not sound to me like she wants help. The above happened to me. I really recommend you to not go this path, as it only will lead to pain and heartbreak. Imagine you being her friend (waiting) and she finds another guy where she can have a shortlived fantasy with as that guy is save for the time-being. We can not help people like these, they have to do and want it themselves. As awful as it, go your own way. I know I wouldn't listen to this, but it is the best I can recommend you.

[Augman]

I'd just like to do a little update saying I took everyone's advice, despite it not being an option I enjoyed picking. I have not spoken to the girl I posted this thread about since before I even posted the thread. Some generous contributors showed me they have experiance on the subject of co-dependents and people with commitment issues and have said the best route is to let her go... and that is what I did!!!

 

Thanks again.

[Downtown]

Augman, thanks for returning to give us an update. Sounds like you made a wise decision. I wish you the best!

[Augman]

Augman, thanks for returning to give us an update. Sounds like you made a wise decision. I wish you the best!

 

Thanks for the wishes and all the help friend!