goodyblue Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Eh, no push or pull. Sometimes good people just make bad choices. It doesn't make them bad people. If they figure out why, hopefully they won't do it again.
HermioneG Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 I have been singing the praises of Esther Perel as well. I read the nytimes article above, it's okay. I posted one earlier specifically called "Why we Cheat" that I thought gave more access to her ideas, rather than focus on who she is... Esther Perel on affairs: Spouses in happy marriages cheat and Americans don?t understand infidelity. Her Mating in Captivity has at least 3 chapters worth the price. Another excellent series is her piece on Post reconciliation, where she talks about three broad types of responses (Black hole, survivors, explorers). You can find these on her website Estherperel.com I think she has some extremely important things to say about the PULL of erotic desire in terms infidelity, but argues that the PULL can just as easily be recovered in the marital home. I have read everything by Esther Perel. I think she is very interestjng, and has some good viewpoints. I think she veers off course, in the same manner as Mira Kirshenbaum, at times, but she is a good voice to bring to the table to provoke discussion. 1
fellini Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 I have read everything by Esther Perel. I think she is very interestjng, and has some good viewpoints. I think she veers off course, in the same manner as Mira Kirshenbaum, at times, but she is a good voice to bring to the table to provoke discussion. Agreed. Her focus is on relationships, not necessarily infidelity. Although she has a lot to say about the culture of infidelity, she is most convincing when she talks about bringing erotic desire into "domesticity" and all the baggage that goes with it.
DKT3 Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Sometimes things can be overly complicated. In some cases the WS has to be taken at face value when they say "I don't know" when asked why. Once one starts to search for answers they don't have does it become a case of parroting what they've learned from other or their true feelings. Sometimes s**t happens.
karnak Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Emotions and relationships are really complex stuff. Judging from my personal experience I'd have to say that the entire blame for infidelity belongs to the cheating spouse and not the relationship itself. We are complex creatures by nature. Some of us are utterly dishonest. But others are frail, vain and filled with doubts. When I was young I was one of those people who really believed I'd never cheat. Well, to be honest I never cheated. But I admit I've been very tempted to. I'm in a relationship now. And it really is perfect. But time has passed. And I admit that I no longer see the relationship and the girl in the same light I once saw. Is my girlfriend to blame? Hell, no! She's one of the most sweet, loving creatures I've ver came across. Yet, it seems that somehow the relationship is not fulfilling. There are certain factors involved: sex life, chemistry, different views, etc. Somehow I'ms starting to doubt we could have a future in common. And just as this is happening to me, it could also happen to her. Hell, most times it does occur. Somewhere along the marriage one of the spouses suddenly "opens his/her eyes" and decides they just can't keep living like that. I know this may sound stupid. But we're not perfect. And, as I grow older I start to realize that we, human beings, become more demanding about what we want in our lives. Most couples I know have reached the point in which one of the spouses is tired of the relationship. Yet, due to fear of change they decide to keep a facede and indulge in emotional apathy or have affairs. I know a few couples who seem to have a pretty solid and happy marriage. Unfortunately they are very rare. 1
karnak Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 I think this is fascinating perspective: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/fashion/Sex-Esther-Perel-Couples-Therapy.html?_r=1&referrer= . “Not every infidelity is a symptom of a problem in a relationship,” she said. “Sometimes it has to do with other longings that are much more existential. Sometimes you go elsewhere not because you are not liking the one you are with; you are not liking the person you have become.” This is highly accurate. I now some women who are really adorable. They sure would make great spouses and mothers. Yet, if I married them I would be subjected to a life of social and intelectual apathy. The "house-work-house-couch-tv" lifestyle. To be loved by a women like those I'm refering to would mean I'd never have to fear being cheated on or being emotionally abused. Yet It would also mean I'd be spending the remainder of my days with a girl whose only goals in life would be to have a nice home, a decent job and raise a couple of kids. Period. No books, no museums, not doing anything to make the world a better place. This kind of living would kill my soul.
fellini Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 This is highly accurate. I now some women who are really adorable. They sure would make great spouses and mothers. Yet, if I married them I would be subjected to a life of social and intelectual apathy. The "house-work-house-couch-tv" lifestyle. This might work if we lived in the land of "The Stepford Wives". Really, must you characterise women in such cliche dichotomies at this stage in the game?
Clay Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 I just want to say that I understand your thinking here. I feel bad that you have this view about every cheater, but, yet, I totally get it. my husband is in counseling. My husband is seeking help for problems that started with abuse from his mother years ago and also to find out more about what caused him to risk our marriage and our family. He is fighting to find out what else he could have been capable of if I hadn't stopped it all and he wants to break the cycle of pain and hurt tht started within his family. It's hard for me not to agree with your sentiments because I do have doubts that people can be redeemed and changed. Yet, I have seen it happen and I'm ready togive him at least once chance. On the trust issue, I do believe you are right....I may always have that doubt, matter how hard he tries to prove to me he can be trusted (and he is trying very, very hard). The main statement of yours that I absolutely agree with is "morals and values have taken a backseat in relationships." You are so right. It is so true and I hope my husband and I can break that cycle in our family. If he can't, I will. I am really sorry you are going through what you are. I know its hard to try to reconcile. I really do wish you and your H the best. I know its hard to really see clearly when you are so close to someone you love that has betrayed you. I think this really happens more often than we like. We get comfortable and loose sight of our boundaries and let our guard down. Its not always about cheating. Its about how we are treated as mates. The truth of it is even if you are able to work out your relationship with your H you need to learn to set healthy boundaries for yourself. Clay
Clay Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 I don't think morals and values have, maybe for some, but I don't think any of us has any real grasp on that, we can only speak about that from the position we actually live in. I live, and have no reason not to believe that everyone around me lives through a developed sense of right and wrong, and that the values they hold are not something they will give up on a whim. Sorry, I just don't know anyone who isn't like that. Trust is completely gone. Again this is not exactly true. I still trust my WS not to murder me in my sleep, to care for our daughter as a mother, to do her job, to not head off to Vegas and bet all our money on blackjack, to not become a drug addict or take up smoking, or join a cult. etc etc etc. The only trust I have lost is the trust was lost from the affair. It's more than enough. But I also know that the kind of trust you talk about is what we call BLIND TRUST. And that, yeah has gone. Good Riddance! "There will always be that doubt" is exactly what will keep me alert, keep me out of being in the dark, prevent me from taking a lazy position about our marriage. Keep me on my toes. For both our sakes. I really don't know your story or how your WS affair came to be. I can just tell you that what ever reason you were given for the affair you are the only person that can say if you accept it or not. Your the only person that can say you can live with that. I would never presume to really know you or your situation but if you feel you can trust her with those things then that is your choice. I am sure there are a lot of people on these sites that would say they don't feel they would be physically harmed by there WS. I bet they were saying the same thing about the cheating just prior to learning about it too. In the end you have to choose what is best for you and your children. Its good that you are working through it with your WS. I wish you both the best. Clay
karnak Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 This might work if we lived in the land of "The Stepford Wives". Really, must you characterise women in such cliche dichotomies at this stage in the game? Er... I was not characterising any female. I'm just talking abouth women I know. I don't know from what part of the world you come from. But I can state that where I live, there are plenty of women who really just want to live the "picket fences" fantasy life. You talk about cliches. Yet I can clearly state that plenty of humans live their lives according to some kind of cliche. The same way some men or women try to emulate the lives of movie characters. In fact I can clearly state that social roles are returning to the old ways (unfortunately). I know plenty of women with college degrees and solid background who are using the the economic crisis in order to stop working and live the housewive lifestyle. For me, being the child of two people who had to work hard to balance the parenting and job duties, this kind of new trend is an aberration. But to each, his or her own.
HermioneG Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 This is highly accurate. I now some women who are really adorable. They sure would make great spouses and mothers. Yet, if I married them I would be subjected to a life of social and intelectual apathy. The "house-work-house-couch-tv" lifestyle. To be loved by a women like those I'm refering to would mean I'd never have to fear being cheated on or being emotionally abused. Yet It would also mean I'd be spending the remainder of my days with a girl whose only goals in life would be to have a nice home, a decent job and raise a couple of kids. Period. No books, no museums, not doing anything to make the world a better place. This kind of living would kill my soul. I never took a word of what Perel said to even remotely infer what you are saying.
HermioneG Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Er... I was not characterising any female. I'm just talking abouth women I know. I don't know from what part of the world you come from. But I can state that where I live, there are plenty of women who really just want to live the "picket fences" fantasy life. You talk about cliches. Yet I can clearly state that plenty of humans live their lives according to some kind of cliche. The same way some men or women try to emulate the lives of movie characters. In fact I can clearly state that social roles are returning to the old ways (unfortunately). I know plenty of women with college degrees and solid background who are using the the economic crisis in order to stop working and live the housewive lifestyle. For me, being the child of two people who had to work hard to balance the parenting and job duties, this kind of new trend is an aberration. But to each, his or her own. This is breathtakingly misogynous. Wow. 2
karnak Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 This is breathtakingly misogynous. Wow. Please, explain. Perhaps I haven't managed to explain myself or I've been misunderstood.
fellini Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Please, explain. Perhaps I haven't managed to explain myself or I've been misunderstood. The problem is you actually believe what you are saying about women. 1
fellini Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Unfortunately your in a total BS fog regarding your wifes A Makes sense. I know my wife had an affair. I know who with. I know when she started to think about going after him. I know she spent a year infatuated with him. I know she ate lunches with him, played tennis with him, went to coffee's with him, I know which restaurants they ate in, I know where they went for walks, on which days and during which hours. I know when and where and how long they had sex. I know about every single text message she sent him, and I know about every single phone call she made, the date, the time, and for how long. I have read every singel email she wrote and that he wrote her. I know that she was in love with him and I know he was in love with her. I know when she ended it, I watched her put the NC letter in his office mail, and I know about every single contact he has tried to make with her. I'm hoping that when this fog clears I will see this affair for what it was.
Red123 Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 And do you really believe she stopped loving him just like that because you discovered her A . As you told us soooo many times shes still at her job working with this guy , and why because "its impossible for her to change jobs , it would ruin her reputation if it all came to light , her students wouldn't view her in the same way " oh please get real man . Time to go crying to the mods now and get this removed , PS sent any emails to her AP lately . I would usually say no one deserves to be cheated on , but in your case I fully understand why your wife had an affair This statement was very cold. You are entitled to your opinion but this is his life. For some people leaving their job is not an option and her reputation at her job is important as well. The A is a part of their lives but not the only part. Their careers and supporting their child is also a factor. When we are really hurt in the early stages after Dday we tend to think very black and white but decisions made during that time are usually rash and have major consequences that we may not want when we have further healed. The truth is whether she is at her job or not if she wishes to continue the A she will. They are working on R and it may not be the way you would do it or others but it is their life. 3
gettingstronger Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Our marriage was good, if eventful, we were deep in the busy kids, busy career phase of life- we had lots going on with the kids as they were both doing really well in their chosen sports (one was training at the Olympic Training Center) our careers had leveled off (he is a VP, I teach) we had reached that point I felt we had been working towards together- We were on a family vacation when we met her family on the beach-everyone seemed to get along well but nothing of note- once we returned she found his email address through the company website and reached out in a kind of friendly but advancing manner- offered up a quickie during a lay over in her town and he bit-calls/emails/texts all stroked that ego I had no idea needed stroking-great for him, she claimed to just want some fun on the side-until she did not and I received an anon text that blew the whole thing up-she has been harassing us for 16 months since- what a mess- he should have known better, he never, ever should have responded or he should have told me she reached out to him as I would have told him exactly what would have happened-he was a jerk, a liar and a horrible person for doing this but I am working on forgiving him because I love him- push or pull- I have no idea-its all selfish and stupid if you ask me-
Red123 Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Sure it is his life but we don't need to hear about his life on virtually every thread someone starts , its not only that its the hypocrisy of that advice related to his own situation and what he done after finding out about his own WW ,and his cock sure belief that he got everything right in the aftermath and beyond I can see that you obviously don't agree with the advice he gives and are not fond of his posts but this is an open forum where anyone can share their experience and offer their thoughts. I have had times on here where I have posted and the responses or advice do not apply to my situation, so I take them with a grain of salt and focus on advice that I think may work for me, and I have found some. We all come here with only our own experiences to speak of and those experiences form our opinions about a situation that's all most of us can offer and that's what I see him doing in most posts. I'm not trying to defend him really but I know as a BS it is hard enough to sort through the pain and try to make your life better without someone making assumptions about your life. Since I'm sure you are on here for some support too I hope you find it. 1
fellini Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 (edited) Sure it is his life but we don't need to hear about his life on virtually every thread someone starts , its not only that its the hypocrisy of that advice related to his own situation and what he done after finding out about his own WW ,and his cock sure belief that he got everything right in the aftermath and beyond As BS's we are supposed to be infinitly aware of the concept of OWNING your decisions. OWN this one. You do not get to blame shift me for writing this post, or for pressing the submit button. That you feel you do not owe me an apology for your remarks about the betrayal I have to live with for the rest of my life says more about your character than mine. Edited May 23, 2014 by fellini
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