BetrayedH Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 For me, being I n love with someone else, how do you reconcile that? Ok they may deny it but obviously a LTA say 3 years is love. Sex is nothing in comparison as love changes your head. I would think that limerance generally lasts for 2-3 years and can go much longer in an affair dynamic (the anticipation of stolen moments vs living together as true partners in life). Honestly from what I've seen, it takes OW 3-4 years for the limerance to wear off before they have finally had it and realize that it's actually not true love for the OW when he stays with his wife so long. I freely admit that this is a generalization and anecdotal from what I've seen at LS but it seems to ring true a lot of the time. 1
bubbaganoosh Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Cheating period. No room for discussion. You cheat, your gone and if by chance I'm the cheater, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. 2
dragon_fly_7 Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Still wary about the kiss while drunk. It'd break my trust in regard of him being out with buddies and beer, and the least I want to spend my time doing is watching my partner every time he gets to a place where alcohol is available. Chances are I'd break up shortly afterwards even if I'd answer his questing for forgiveness with a "Yes" and a faked smile.Even though a drunken kiss (if it was just that little offense) is technically still cheating, I would see that more as an ''That was disrespectful, do control your drinking and never do this again'' thing than if we were talking about the real cheating when it's either full-blown sex (or anything more than drunk kissing) or a long-term affair. If it's the real cheating betrayal then he's dump immediately. I'm not a forgiving woman that settles for less at all. Haven't been in that type of situation but a drunken kiss isn't something I would even cry about nor go overboard with involving counseling or it needing years of rebuilding trust. I don't see that as the greatest betrayal of all times. This is something I would rather just not know. It's like the equivalent of stealing an eraser. Yes it's still stealing but it's not the same as a close family member your trusted stealing tons of money from you. Edited April 30, 2014 by dragon_fly_7
purplesorrow Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Yes... that explains it all right? since no one is perfect everyone got to forgive anything... I guess you and I have a different definition of respect. A person deceiving and betraying another person usually are not signs of respect in my books... No, it doesn't nor did I imply it did. But people do have a right to forgive if they choose without ridicule. Your path worked for you and that is great. That doesn't mean it is the only path. I am working on forgiveness, for myself but I am divorcing. I can't carry this the rest of my life. 2
fellini Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) There is a very good article somewhere on internet by Esther Perel on "Survivors of infidelity". She is one of the few who have gone back, down the road, to discuss with those who chose reconcilliation, how things went, what they did, did not do, trust issues, etc. She has divided the post infidelity approaches into 3 broad categories. And they make for an interesting read. Ill try to dig it up. For now, I found this on the topic: Affairs in Perspective: Looking Back on the Crisis of Infidelity ? THE SURVIVORS | Esther Perel She discusses some of the above issues about staying vs. reconciliation. And here is a great quote that hits home for me, when I think about my own WS's desire to "reconcile": “Part of me was very disappointed in myself (WS) for not being able to leave Michael (BS) and I wondered if I was letting go the love of my life,” Joanna recalled. “But, part of me felt relief that I was going to stay and not destroy my family.” Michael alternated between panic and rage, between begging her to stay and chasing her away. “I couldn’t believe she was ready to jeopardize everything for this guy Eric and I felt trapped because I suspected that her reasons to stay didn’t have much to do with me. It was more about what we had than who I was.” Edited April 30, 2014 by fellini 3
fellini Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Good article, thanks for posting. NP. There is a second, equally good and related... Affairs in Perspective: Looking Back on the Crisis of Infidelity ? THE EXPLORERS | Esther Perel
fellini Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) Here is something that really caught me offguard: Slate: What would you say to people who want to preserve a marriage? Perel: Most people today, for the sheer length we live together, have two or three marriages in their adult life, and some of us do it with the same person. For me, this is my fourth marriage with my husband and we have completely reorganized the structure of the relationship, the flavor, the complementarity. Slate: Explicitly, or it just happened organically? Perel: Both. It became clear that we could either go into crisis mode and end it or go into crisis mode and renew. And that is one of the most hopeful sentences a betrayed partner can hear when they come into my office the day after they find out and they are in a state of utter shock and collapse: I say, your first marriage may be over, and in fact I believe that affairs are often a powerful alarm system for a structure that needs change. And then people say: But did it have to happen like that? And I say: I have rarely seen anything as powerful lead to a regenerative experience. This is a controversial idea, but betrayal is sometimes a regenerative act. It’s a way of saying no to a rotten system in need of change. Slate: Would you ever recommend an affair? Perel: No more than I would recommend cancer and yet a lot of people finally understand the value of life when they get sick. She really needs to be read deeply, fully. She is not for people who want to be Dorothy and just get back to Kansas. Her book Mating in Captivity is incredible. Listening to her on youtube reveals she has some very interesting ideas about infidelity and marriage. Edited April 30, 2014 by fellini 1
badkarma2013 Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 No, it doesn't nor did I imply it did. But people do have a right to forgive if they choose without ridicule. Your path worked for you and that is great. That doesn't mean it is the only path. I am working on forgiveness, for myself but I am divorcing. I can't carry this the rest of my life. I agree...R in some cases works...again after my nightmare,there was NO WAY I could forget much less forgive to even phantom the thought of R. MY best friend from my college days is in his 2nd yr of R...It seems his WW is doing the WS script to the tee....GREAT However,he triggers several times a week is UP and DOWN....has constant trust issues( which i believe he will have from now on) his self esteem is shot...and is happy one minute and crys the next.....FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHY? Research states only 15-20% of BHs can reconcile and stay in a relative stable marriage....flip side is 80-85% of BH divorce... ive read many reasons that BHs have a really terriable time with Infidelity....again after much research it seems to be a gender thing. 1
purplesorrow Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Honestly after an affair you have two persons, one in victim mode and the other one in guilt mode (if the WS is not in guilt mode then can be in entitlement mode which is even worse). It will never work again, you can fake a relationship your whole life but you know that the main ingredients of a loving relationship are not there anymore - beginning by trust and ending by respect- Many people try to reconcile for many reasons, they are afraid of change, they have children, economical reasons, they still love the idea of the person they were in a relationship with before the affair but none of them are really a valid reason because a BS is settling with someone they don't trust and whom then now realize they don't know and the WS is settling with someone who does not trust them and in many ways will be lashing out to them for a very long time (if not for ever). The best option after an affair is divorce, it is the ultimate consequence of an affair and it is the only way a BS is not validating the affair (please note that I do not use the word condoning but the word validating because you do not need to think something is right to validate it with your attitude to it) People grow. They don't stay in those mentalities. I am not a victim. My WH has grown from guilt to remorse. As individuals we are both stronger and healthier since dday occurred. The best option for you may have been divorce, but you can't say that is true for everyone. I try not to limit other's experiences by my own. Everyone situation is different. 4
badkarma2013 Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 Honestly after an affair you have two persons, one in victim mode and the other one in guilt mode (if the WS is not in guilt mode then can be in entitlement mode which is even worse). It will never work again, you can fake a relationship your whole life but you know that the main ingredients of a loving relationship are not there anymore - beginning by trust and ending by respect- Many people try to reconcile for many reasons, they are afraid of change, they have children, economical reasons, they still love the idea of the person they were in a relationship with before the affair but none of them are really a valid reason because a BS is settling with someone they don't trust and whom then now realize they don't know and the WS is settling with someone who does not trust them and in many ways will be lashing out to them for a very long time (if not for ever). The best option after an affair is divorce, it is the ultimate consequence of an affair and it is the only way a BS is not validating the affair (please note that I do not use the word condoning but the word validating because you do not need to think something is right to validate it with your attitude to it) Could not agree more...again some case of R work for some people...however the LIES ,DECEIT and DEPTHS OF BETRAYL that come to light after D-DAY and the upcoming weeks and months ( If the WS is honest) ....WILL NEVER LEAVE THE BS....EVER.. Ive spoken to a couple on another site...who the wife confessed an ongoing affair to her husband over 25years ago...at that time they...he decide to R....HE STILL AFTER 25 YEARS DEALING WITH ISSUES FROM THIS EVENT.......25 YEARS , GRANTED NOT AS SEVERE BUT THERE NONE THE LESS. WHY? 2
Sub Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 We could discuss as much as you want why reconciling is wrong but this is no the topic here. If you decide to reconcile you are actually making the option to cheat a valid option as it would not be a deal breaker. You're right. It's not the topic. But since you've launched yourself into it, speak for yourself. It's a very oversimplified take on reconciliation, IMO. 4
atreides Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 No, for staying you don't need to change anything, for reconciling yes, lets make a difference because many people stay in the relationship as eternal victims and never try to actually move on from where they are. When i said "staying" i meant to reconcile, i cannot imagine what you speak of and for those that just simply stay and not reconcile... I do not understand the reasons. I am not going to say that staying and trying to reconcile is not difficult, but I think it is wrong. We could discuss as much as you want why reconciling is wrong but this is no the topic here. If you decide to reconcile you are actually making the option to cheat a valid option as it would not be a deal breaker. So you have setup a premise that i do not agree with... that to R is wrong and therefore validating infidelity. That is non sequitur simply put. It precludes the unknown and bases everything on a false condition. For example, some of the infidelity i have scene the wife had no remorse, a Divorce from my BF changed nothing in her. My other friend, his wife had a 6 year affair, he D'd and changed nothing in the cheater... however, within my family the wife cheated but did everything in her power to right her wrong and they are still married and both he and she are happier for it. Albeit, it took a lot of work, but they have no regrets. So the condition precludes what we only know now to be true but a fallacy for the future. People in this forum tend to confuse dignity and pride. You should never be a slave of your pride but you should be the biggest defender of your dignity. Pride would be a preclusion and sticking to it to spite life itself because as one of my favorite lines go "so it is written so it shall be done." Dignity would be doing what you know is best for you no matter the obstacles, whether it in the end is D or R.
purplesorrow Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) "You are a victim, maybe you do not feel like a victim anymore but you are a victim of the betrayal of your husband... Guilt and remorse are just synonyms, you can play with semantics but tell me one thing, do you trust him as much as you did before dday? has your relationship still the innocence that it had before the dday? Can you look at your husband and knowing that he didn't care to risk your happiness and your life as a couple for to get his selfish needs say that you love him as you loved him before?" No, I am not a victim, I am a survivor. I've been through worse than infidelity. Yes, I do trust him. But I don't even trust myself as much as I did before dday, actually a good thing. Innocence lost is just that, lost. I look at him every day. I love him differently, in a more honest and authentic way. Infidelity changes things, it would be very foolish for one to remain the same as before or expect things to be the same as before. Adversity teaches many lessons, I'm trying to be a good student and learn as much as I can. I wish my WH well and hope he continues on a path of growth and healing and has a full life. I plan to do the same. As a side note, do you really think you've asked anything a bs hasn't asked themselves? Edited April 30, 2014 by purplesorrow 1
badkarma2013 Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 No, I am not a victim, I am a survivor. I've been through worse than infidelity. Yes, I do trust him. But I don't even trust myself as much as I did before dday, actually a good thing. Innocence lost is just that, lost. I look at him every day. I love him differently, in a more honest and authentic way. Infidelity changes things, it would be very foolish for one to remain the same as before or expect things to be the same as before. Adversity teaches many lessons, I'm trying to be a good student and learn as much as I can. I wish my WH well and hope he continues on a path of growth and healing and has a full life. I plan to do the same. As a side note, do you really think you've asked anything a bs hasn't asked themselves? Yes you were a victim of lies,deceit and betrayal ...you Survived it...But you were a victim of all of this. Your BS did these things and alot more if you were honest... I knew ( if youve read my post) there would be no R......no Forgivness no Marriage....I was a victim of the same and much worse... I survived by getting a D....(after D_DAY) and the truth finally came out....THE D was my WAY TO SURVIVE.
purplesorrow Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 No, I am not a victim, I am a survivor. I've been through worse than infidelity. Yes, I do trust him. But I don't even trust myself as much as I did before dday, actually a good thing. Innocence lost is just that, lost. I look at him every day. I love him differently, in a more honest and authentic way. Infidelity changes things, it would be very foolish for one to remain the same as before or expect things to be the same as before. Adversity teaches many lessons, I'm trying to be a good student and learn as much as I can. I wish my WH well and hope he continues on a path of growth and healing and has a full life. I plan to do the same. As a side note, do you really think you've asked anything a bs hasn't asked themselves? Yes you were a victim of lies,deceit and betrayal ...you Survived it...But you were a victim of all of this. Your BS did these things and alot more if you were honest... I knew ( if youve read my post) there would be no R......no Forgivness no Marriage....I was a victim of the same and much worse... I survived by getting a D....(after D_DAY) and the truth finally came out....THE D was my WAY TO SURVIVE. I've been a victim of a lot of things, we all have. But I have survived them all. That's life. I am glad that divorce was a good option for you. I am also divorcing, doesn't mean I think any less of some one reconciling. Nor do I think they are wrong. Everyone gets to choose what is best for them, and that is beautiful. All I have said this entire post is everyone should choose what is best for them and their families without ridicule or being told their choice is wrong because it doesn't match someone else's. 5
atreides Posted April 30, 2014 Posted April 30, 2014 (edited) This happens much more often than the real reconciliation, many people stay in the relationship to avoid the OM/OW to get their WS (possessiveness), other people stay as short of punishment to the WS (vindicatives), other stay for codependency, others for the children, many for economic reasons... there are very few people actually that really try to reconcile as a well thought decision and with the full intention to heal and move on. How do you know this? I have seen R first hand. You may not agree with me but I am still right. You look at this in how the divorce or the reconciliation affect the WS (how did they change) while you should look about the changes that you made. You changed your values to allow yourself to reconcile. Your genetic and life experience has made you who you are and hold some values in life that you are willing to break and forget in order to make a room for the cheater back in your life. You accepted what was unacceptable for you till that moment and that is why you validate the cheater with your attitude. Wow, I can see we wont ever agree here, but sorry to say it is not correct and by saying so does not make it so. Value is not a preclusion, you also see only one value over another like forgiveness, you set up a straw-man and fallacy by saying something changed with the BS, because of the R, they have changed... when in reality values are not preclusions, sorry non sequitur Doing what is better for you has nothing to do with dignity, you could say that a cheater does what they think is better for them and can't really be called dignity, can you? Dignity is a person who has strong values and keep them and defend them, not just make a new tailored values to adjust to the new situation and confront the reality (the loss of the WS and what it means for your life) Ok, now you bring up a different point, your first context was that the cheater would not learn by doing R as in your words "valid option" that was context for the side coming from the cheater, so i replied as such. Dignity is the context for what stated in terms of the BS, going into the unknown is the context without set conditions or preclusions. As for values, what value do you speak of as to not R? "I wont be cheated on or betrayed?" or as others have stated, "I wont be a doormat!" hardly values in my opinion, Fidelity vs betrayal is more of a value the WS should have kept and then a plethora of values must be upheld and shown on the WS side if real R is to occur, then I can see the value of forgiveness on the BS side for one... but i fail to see, a preclusion that "i will D and never do R if i am cheated on" as a value.... or that "I have changed to R" as in it is a failure to change from something i thought i knew before but experienced differently. This value you describe at least the way i am understanding you, to me seems like something more preemptive, but the travesty is that once the cheat has happened, the "I wont be cheated on or betrayed?" is mooted. Perhaps i am misunderstanding you? cheers Edited May 1, 2014 by atreides 1
gettingstronger Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 The difference in opinions here are that some believe in redemption and personal growth and some believe we are who we will always be with no hope for change or redemption- personally, believing in redemption does not make me feel weak- redemption is woven in to our culture-its in our laws, our religions, our sense of humanity-its powerful and hopeful and I am proud that I believe in it- 8
Fluttershy Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 The difference in opinions here are that some believe in redemption and personal growth and some believe we are who we will always be with no hope for change or redemption- personally, believing in redemption does not make me feel weak- redemption is woven in to our culture-its in our laws, our religions, our sense of humanity-its powerful and hopeful and I am proud that I believe in it- Beautifuly put! I am smart enough to know we change, grow, and shrink in life. That character flaws can be strengthened and sometimes appear. That life happens and molds us at times. That I may not ever understand a dark place someone else has been. That people do screw up and if they truly regret ther actions and work on themselves they will never screw up in that way again. I abhor putting people into boxes based on gender, race, or past actions that have been appropriately dealt with. 4
Fluttershy Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 With regards to what happened during your WS's affair, do you or did you have any deal breakers? Meaning, anything that would R impossible or D immediate? My H affair completely blindsided me. He confessed which btw is no comfort immediantly. It is hard to know what would have changed it all for me. But I think continued blameshifting (he never did it once) would have been too much. If he had planned to leave me for her even if just lies that would have been harder. Even catching him in the long run would have been harder. When I read other stories of betrayal sometimes I wonder how anything can be salvaged like a LTA that is frequent. Btw I consider LTA over a year. No exact science to it but because that is what I consider a ltr. When the affair partners start having anniversaries? Yeah that is a LTA. I can honestly say I don't know what would be a dealbreaker. But the biggest thing would be lack of remorse and having to drag every single truth out of the WS. I was exhausted as it was I don't know if Icould have handled that or multiple ddays.
atreides Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 The difference in opinions here are that some believe in redemption and personal growth and some believe we are who we will always be with no hope for change or redemption- personally, believing in redemption does not make me feel weak- redemption is woven in to our culture-its in our laws, our religions, our sense of humanity-its powerful and hopeful and I am proud that I believe in it- Well said and to be fair to funny, i am sure there are many false Rs and people that just stay and i cannot imagine the hell funny went through. But we do change indeed, and if R is genuine, real change is for the good. I hear so many times "but it wont ever be the same" why on earth should it be the same when something new can be that much better? We tend to cling to the "same" a lot and forget even the little things we change over time. Some would argue (not on this thread) it is a loss of identity as if to be stagnant is the ideal, like a set template we never deviate from. But to be back on point with OP, I don't know how i would react in reality to create DBs and i don't wish upon anyone to be tested on it. 1
William Posted May 1, 2014 Posted May 1, 2014 Meh, another PBM (previously banned member, multiple times) showed up and I had to do some response cleanup, trying to retain topical content as much as possible. Sorry for the disruption and please continue! 1
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