drifter777 Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 I know this feeling too. I already know some things (the AP couldn't get hard because of testosterone problems) and so to ask for more details... I think there is a difference between what goes on in our heads (I want to know.... I don't want to know) and externalizing that. I'm not sure GETTING that information will eliminate anything. If I ask, for example, how she tried to get him hard. And if (not that she will!) she tells me? Then what? Maybe I want to know how she blew him? Am I gong to ask her to show me? Am I going to ask her about whether she talked to him about his penis? Him about her vagina? What he did with his tongue? How many fingers he used? Where does it end? Let me ask you this: what do you think she did? What do you picture in your mind? Based on these things you enumerate here I would guess you have a vivid picture of all of this in your head. Can the truth be worse? You will probably find - like I did - that the details are not as disgusting and disturbing as your imagination. And on the OTHER side of getting all this "information"? What is waiting for me on the other side of this exercise: a completely humiliated and depraved woman? Someone who now hates me for putting her through that. Someone who was doing everything I asked, to show me she loved me, and then I debase her with this request? And then I tell her, wow, if you did those things to him I want nothing more to do with you... If this is how you feel then it's obvious you are in denial. You are willing to sacrifice your personal recovery - your happiness - in order to smooth things over and get your life back to what was before the affair. You worry about humiliating her? What did she do to you? You worry about her hating you for demanding the details? How do you feel - in your heart - about her after what she has done. When a BH starts defending his WW to this degree its a red flag that you are compartmentalizing all of this hurt, anger, and shame and trying to shove it into some dark corner of your mind. You are terrified to actually do something that could end your marriage and change your life so dramatically. You have to become selfish and focus on your own recovery first. If you really want to reconcile it has to begin with your total commitment to change yourself and work to change your marriage. You can't do this until you work through your emotions and are able to decide whether you will ever be able to accept her after what she has done. Some men can't but try anyway and end up unhappily married. Asking a women (or a man) to share intimate details about making love to another person seems, on this level to be rather grotesque. And if we add on to this some kind of justification that it's a TEST for "truth telling", pffff. I do not want to be that man. As I suggested, the pictures and movies of her and him in your mind must be horrific. Are you more terrified to find out the truth then you are to put the sex in its true context? I will admit I entertained these ideas. And when I asked myself about this, getting details as a test, I realised that the real issue is there was nothing else to test about her that she was not already coming clean on, and I was looking for more dirt to pull from her. She had SEX. They were forced to do it without penetration. I don't need a confession to know what that means. I have made love to the same woman for 17 years. Im pretty sure I know where he has been, and her too. My only job is to either put it behind me, or decide to leave or stay knowing these thoughts continue to haunt me and may or may not end one day. You don't know what happened because you were not there so you don't know whats true and whats not. You seem somewhat relieved that they did not have penis-in-vagina sex; how do you know this is true? Again I ask: can the true details be any more disturbing than what you imagine? Is having your wife open up and fill in whatever details you need such a bad thing? I didn't think knowing details would help me but I was wrong. It helped frame the sex in reality and some of my imagination calmed down. More than anything it told me she was at least trying to give me all of the truth, and that was more important than anything. 1
fellini Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 (edited) For one, I know that this man had penis dysfunction. I have an email from him to her talking about what his doctor said. She told me about it. I have an email from her to him telling him not to worry about his "problem" but to focus on finding her G spot. I have a text message from him to her asking her to come by because he got back the results of his testosterone tests and he wanted to show her (I suppose he was worried that she might think it wasn't medical). So I know they were intimate and I know what a man and a woman have to do if his penis isn't working. I think I was pretty clear about the difference between thinking and actually going about finding out. I think you skimmed over my comments that in the end, it's almost like we need our WS's to provide video footage, stop motion on every second of love making that ever occurred. And I'm pretty much of the mind that this is completely unhealthy I also think your line of discourse offers men absolutely no way out. Maybe the problem is an emotional issue men have with their wives bodies that is getting in the way. Maybe we shouldn't be so hung up on the number of rotations of a guy's index finger in our beloved's vagina. All of this seems to me to be just getting the movie right. I think what men need more support in, is dealing with the images, and how to get past them. Why do men have an absurd obsession with information about what our wives have done in an affair if we cannot ourselves, probably, recount a one hour session with them from our own past, nor do we wish to! It seems to me you are saying that my WS's reluctance to draw a detailed account for me is her problem, and therefore my problem. Maybe the problem is in what it is I seek, not in attaining it. And please, stop telling me IM in denial, or rug sweeping or in a fog. Im a BS like anyone else here and I have live my life as I see fit, not according to some template derived from a couple of guys/gals in LS. I will never be able to recover by blackmailing my wife into telling me intimate details about her having oral sex with her AP. And I have no problem with believing that she will question my sanity, my chances of survival in a marriage by forcing her to do so as a deal breaker. Until I have had more time with betrayal, and this is the first in my life, I choose to see these issues as something to get past, just like the initial trauma, just like the gaslighting, just like the trickle truth, and a half dozen other things that come full center to a BS, appear like they will haunt us for the rest of our living days, but gratefully, eventually, disappear from consciousness. Let me ask you this: what do you think she did? What do you picture in your mind? Based on these things you enumerate here I would guess you have a vivid picture of all of this in your head. Can the truth be worse? You will probably find - like I did - that the details are not as disgusting and disturbing as your imagination. If this is how you feel then it's obvious you are in denial. You are willing to sacrifice your personal recovery - your happiness - in order to smooth things over and get your life back to what was before the affair. You worry about humiliating her? What did she do to you? You worry about her hating you for demanding the details? How do you feel - in your heart - about her after what she has done. When a BH starts defending his WW to this degree its a red flag that you are compartmentalizing all of this hurt, anger, and shame and trying to shove it into some dark corner of your mind. You are terrified to actually do something that could end your marriage and change your life so dramatically. You have to become selfish and focus on your own recovery first. If you really want to reconcile it has to begin with your total commitment to change yourself and work to change your marriage. You can't do this until you work through your emotions and are able to decide whether you will ever be able to accept her after what she has done. Some men can't but try anyway and end up unhappily married. As I suggested, the pictures and movies of her and him in your mind must be horrific. Are you more terrified to find out the truth then you are to put the sex in its true context? You don't know what happened because you were not there so you don't know whats true and whats not. You seem somewhat relieved that they did not have penis-in-vagina sex; how do you know this is true? Again I ask: can the true details be any more disturbing than what you imagine? Is having your wife open up and fill in whatever details you need such a bad thing? I didn't think knowing details would help me but I was wrong. It helped frame the sex in reality and some of my imagination calmed down. More than anything it told me she was at least trying to give me all of the truth, and that was more important than anything. Edited May 23, 2014 by fellini
drifter777 Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 I also think your line of discourse offers men absolutely no way out. Maybe the problem is an emotional issue men have with their wives bodies that is getting in the way. Maybe we shouldn't be so hung up on the number of rotations of a guy's index finger in our beloved's vagina. All of this seems to me to be just getting the movie right. We disagree because we are different people. I do have a problem with you saying that my thinking offers men no way out because I don't have the slightest idea what you are referring to. And if you aren't hung up on the number of rotations of his finger in her vag - good for you. I think what men need more support in, is dealing with the images, and how to get past them. Why do men have an absurd obsession with information about what our wives have done in an affair if we cannot ourselves, probably, recount a one hour session with them from our own past, nor do we wish to! I am offering support in dealing with the images. In my case the only thing that helped was hearing details of the sex. Filling in some of the blanks with reality instead of my imagination was helpful. If not for you, fine. As for why most men find the sex the hardest thing to get over, it's just the way it is. For MOST men its all about the sex.
fellini Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 My bad if I understood you saying here or elsewhere that a BH shouldn't bother to reconcile if he has problems with his wife having had sex with another man to mean that men have no way out, except D I suppose. We disagree because we are different people. I do have a problem with you saying that my thinking offers men no way out because I don't have the slightest idea what you are referring to. And if you aren't hung up on the number of rotations of his finger in her vag - good for you. I am offering support in dealing with the images. In my case the only thing that helped was hearing details of the sex. Filling in some of the blanks with reality instead of my imagination was helpful. If not for you, fine. As for why most men find the sex the hardest thing to get over, it's just the way it is. For MOST men its all about the sex.
DasPope Posted May 25, 2014 Posted May 25, 2014 You say "block" but I think its just that ou are not ready to make the decision about this yet. I do urge you to actually make a decision about how much you need to know when it becomes important to you instead of rug-sweeping on this. Details mean different things to different BH's and ranges from "when/where/how many" to "what did he do to you? What did you do to him" complete with every intimate detail. Your WW should provide answers to whatever you think you need to know. I'm not sure I'd ever want a blow by blow intimate description that would be impossible to bear. But considering all I have been told by her is "it was only sex" I feel that I would like to be able to bring myself to ask some details just for my own personal reassurance but I just can't manage to do it. Everything else I think I've managed quite well considering but this seems to be a bridge too far for me.
Author Maiq Posted June 22, 2014 Author Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) Hi everyone, It's been another month, and I think the least I can do to thank you all for your posts is to give you updates every so often. We're still together at the moment. If we're going to split, I'd rather do it when I'm confident about that being the best decision. (In other words, I just don't know right now.) She's completely terrified of losing me. To the point that she'll do ANYTHING to keep me. Practically her entire life revolves around making me happy. In part, that's just her personality. She's always found happiness by making me happy. When she sees that I'm happy, it makes her happy. Little by little, she's started to relax, though. She'll get lazy and play games rather than jump up and do the dishes immediately (for example). It's a little healthier now, I think. She's finding herself again. I, on the other hand, have relaxed a lot. I've lost that drive to please her and worship her. I suppose it's understandable, though. We've basically swapped positions since the affair. When I was concerned that I was losing her, I wanted to do everything in my power to keep her interested in me. Now that she's at risk of losing me, it's reversed. Hopefully we'll find that balance eventually. --- As far as recovery goes, I still have intrusions daily, but they're easier to brush off. I haven't broken down and cried in a while. I'm less zombie like nowadays, but I'm more prone to shutting myself into my own little shell, reading stuff on the internet (trying to learn more about investing, starting a business, etc) or just cruising various car forums. It bothers me that I feel so much less attraction to her. Just a few months ago, I was so drawn to her. I would have done anything to make her happy. Now, I feel like I care about the relationship a little bit less. I feel less attraction.. less romantic. I wouldn't say that I've thrown in the towel - I would still like for things to work out, if I can handle it. And that's still the big question. Can I handle it? Should I? She's just my girlfriend. We're not even married. We have no other ties. Why should I suffer with this for the rest of my life? And yet, I don't want to lose her. The reason I didn't kick her to the curb on D-Day is that I was SO EXCITED for her to learn and grow from this. Why let some future boyfriend reap the benefits of my suffering? At this time, I don't think there's anything wrong with patiently waiting for our feelings to settle. I'm glad that I didn't give her the boot. A few months' time isn't a big sacrifice for the experience and wisdom I attain from this experience. And if it nets me a loving, honest, loyal wife in the future, who KNOWS firsthand the difference between loyalty and betrayal, then isn't that even better? However, I know that if I don't feel better by a certain point, then it may be best to simply let go. And that's the next quesion: When? We're both planning on transferring to a new school together in January. At the very least, I know I can live comfortably with her. Even if we decide to split up, we're not the kind of people who wouldn't be able to get along. We should probably have a serious discussion about this, though. This might be a terrible idea. Would you move forward with someone in a rocky relationship or other situation like this? We both need to move out for school anyway, and we both happen to be going to the same place. I feel like we would get along the way best friends do, if there wasn't this relationship thing already happening between us. How would we feel if we split up and brought new partners home? I think it would be fun to be that friend who says "yes" or "no" about future prospects. I wonder if I'm more excited about being close friends than in a relationship. Is that strange? Maybe it'd be a good idea. Wait... suddenly the thought is REALLY painful deep in my chest. Hm... --- Speaking of living situations, we're both staying at her mom's place now. We're basically together 100% of the time, unless we're at work. I have returned to work, finally, but I am VERY glad I happened to be on sabbatical during the roughest times. I can't say that my grades fared very well. I need to see if I can find a relationship counselor to at least write me a note to get the grades removed.. not to mention helping us through this entire ordeal. Anyway, I think that it may be unhealthy to be together this much. I don't have any chance to miss her or build desire for her, and that may be part of why my attraction to her has been lessening. But don't all married couples do the same thing when they start living together? We're not even married, and I feel this way now. Then again, I think I have a good excuse. --- I wish I had time to write more refined posts. Pretty much you guys just get to hear wordvomit without any editing or organization. Still, I have to say thank you for being here. Things would be MUCH harder if I had to do this on my own. I wish she would do something like this, posting on the forums, seeking answers. I feel like her solution to stress is shutting it away and hiding it. She doesn't deal with real life very well - I have to handle most of the real world responsibilities, like maintaining her car, paying bills, handling taxes, making phone calls, setting up the health insurance... EVERYTHING. I even drive her everywhere because her car is unreliable, because _I_ need to find the time to fix it. She's barely even motivated to ask/pressure me to do it, not to mention the other things like health insurance and job applications. It's like I have to tell her to do these things, even if all that means is her asking me to do them first. Of course, a certain level of this is understandable, and I'm actually happy to be in charge of these things (I love wrenching on cars, doing financial stuff, etc). Oops, I went off on a rant. But if she would at least step up and seek out answers to fix our relationship (instead of just asking me what she can do, and being the house slave), I would probably feel a bit better. --- has she been tested for stds and is she expecting? She's not pregnant. He didn't finish in there. We haven't been tested yet, though. We're waiting for Covered CA applications to go through. It's taking FOREVER. I wish I had known about the affair before she exposed me to God knows what. For now I'll just pray that he was clean. I almost feel like I would explode if my life has to come to an early end because of her cheating. This is one topic that REALLY pisses me off. Even if I leave her, I'm stuck with whatever disease/HIV she brought in? WTF? But as you can probably tell, I don't know much about HIV besides that it's REALLY bad and that I may have gotten it from her. Then again, for all I know, I may have had it for years. I've had two other partners in my entire life, ~10 years since my first time. How long does HIV go without giving symptoms? Regardless, I assume I would have found out in one of the annual "biometric screening" blood tests my work sponsors annually. As to the ongoing debate about getting the details... Again I ask: can the true details be any more disturbing than what you imagine? Is having your wife open up and fill in whatever details you need such a bad thing? I didn't think knowing details would help me but I was wrong. It helped frame the sex in reality and some of my imagination calmed down. More than anything it told me she was at least trying to give me all of the truth, and that was more important than anything. I agree with this. Initially, it was more important to know the truth than anything else. Now, I realize, it's more important that she was WILLING to tell me the truth than it is actually having the truth. I still have lots of very big questions, and there are still details I don't know, but we've been through a few truth-telling sessions and I feel like I know enough that I don't care as much anymore. KNOWING the truth definitely helps chill the imagination, but those details that you KNOW to be true can be VERY painful. Those things that you used to share exclusively are no longer yours. For example, she and I came up with something that felt very close and loving, yet satisfying at the same time. He did the same thing to her, and now one of our favorite ways to make love is also one of the most painful things to me. If she wouldn't tell me the details, I would be outta there. I told her repeatedly, before and after d-day, that for our partnership to succeed, there could be NOTHING between us. She understands now, and there are NO blocks between us. No doubt about it - if that wasn't the case, I would NOT be with her. If there is ANY SHRED of ANYTHING still going between them, I am DONE. Despite the fact that I know there isn't anything, she's still understanding of my hypervigilism (if that's a word), and is always reassuring and completely open to me. edit- btw, I'm much deeper into "Not Just Friends." She got me a copy for our 4-year anniversary. It was a bit embarassing when she announced it so proudly at the bookstore, but she was clearly very excited to be surprising me with a gift. I was actually disappointed, because I was in the process of ordering a copy for her as a surprise gift. We really do think alike sometimes. I told her that the bigger gift would be for her to read it (since I have an audiobook copy). I actually wasn't too excited about our anniversary. I almost want to forget the date and find a new one for this new phase. But when would it be? On D-day? Yuck. We used to talk about not wanting to throw away our original anniversary date if we ever got married, but now I'd be more than happy to. It's a sad thought, but I guess that's the reality of things. Edited June 22, 2014 by Maiq
fellini Posted June 22, 2014 Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) Really good to hear you are feeling better about yourself and have shown incredible insight into your current situation. I recognise so much of what I went through in your last post. Yes, I went through a phase with my BS recently in which I couldn't make love, or say "I love you" (neither initiate or reply). I don't want to just respond to her like a parrot. I didn't hold it in, I just couldnt say it in a believable way, for me. And I understand what you are saying about the intimacy. This is something that only the other day I began to think deeply about because I discovered that there are still one or two things I cannot do with my WS because they create massive intrusions of the AP into my head. Is it enough to want to throw in the towel? No, probably not. But when I add in all the other issues, I am, like you, although I am now 14 months post DDay, still open to the idea that we will not stay together. Still, it's mostly about me, and has nothing to do with lack of trust around her previous A. It is about the fallout of the Affair, not the affair per se. There is toxic radioactivity after an affair and it is this that brings home the saying "The living will envy the dead". And yes, I confer with you that she needs to be less about "pleasing you" and more proactive in doing what she thinks is right, without your either having to ask for it, or complain and have her reverse her positions. This part drives me nuts. I want her to show EMPATHY, not SYMPATHY. I want her to imagine how I might feel if she does X, Y, or Z. Not to simply do what she thinks I want, and then check out my response, and then adjust accordingly. Great news, and I wish you luck for your continued success. In the end we will be professional BS's and even if we choose to end things, we will be all the wiser. Fellini. Edited June 22, 2014 by fellini
Author Maiq Posted June 24, 2014 Author Posted June 24, 2014 On days like today, I'm glad she tries so hard. I was so cold and unresponsive all night, but she keeps chugging along trying to make me happy. She doesn't give me reason to feel like I should leave. I feel like the way I'm acting today is the same thing that drove her into the affair in the first place. But on days like today, it's like I just don't care. I wouldn't say "this isn't worth it" and leave, but I certainly don't feel like trying to have a good time together. Sometimes she reaches the breaking point and snaps, but even that is very gentle when it happens. Inside I know that she doesn't deserve to be treated like that. I should be more like her affair partner, excited and joking and compliment-y and whatever. She put on a special robe for me tonight. I'll try and compliment her on it.
Author Maiq Posted June 24, 2014 Author Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) Yes of course. The worst part of having to fight 9 months to get to a point of truth was by then my WS couldn't "do it anymore". Imagine stonewalling someone for 9 months and then, just when you are at a point that you think you can tell the truth, you demand that the interrogation stops. Enough is enough. ... it's a very unfair approach to take for a WS who is supposed to be doing "whatever it takes" to make amends. One shouldn't have to point out that "whatever it takes" took 9 months to begin. More importantly for the OP I want you to understand that I was CONVINCED that she was telling me the truth, that she was telling me the truth! This is not the same thing as 9 months of avoidance, resistance. This is 9 months of false testimony in order to hide the truth. I have a complete block about this .... I want to know ... But I don't want to know. I have been unable even in counselling sessions to raise the issue with my wife even though in one on one sessions with me my counsellor recommends that I do so. It's easily the biggest remaining issue that I'm carrying around. I wanted to comment on this, just because I'm sure this is coming my way too. It's not that she refuses to tell me, just that it's so hard to put her through it. But I just can't believe her when she says things were as bad as they were. And this opens the can up again.. wanting to know all those little details. (No, we haven't had the q&a session I said I wanted in my post last month). But I still don't want to put her through it. Ah, what a conundrum... ... Edit- She's been loving on me all night, trying to make me laugh, treating me to something I've been craving for dinner, putting on that robe (and MMMMM does she look good).. And I'm sure I missed a million other things while I was sulking. I feel like a stupid child for acting that way, but sometimes this is just how I feel. She's so good to me... But it's not that easy to counteract the pain she caused. I tell her to just keep going and that I really appreciate it. Edited June 24, 2014 by Maiq
drifter777 Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 On days like today, I'm glad she tries so hard. I was so cold and unresponsive all night, but she keeps chugging along trying to make me happy. She doesn't give me reason to feel like I should leave. I feel like the way I'm acting today is the same thing that drove her into the affair in the first place. But on days like today, it's like I just don't care. I wouldn't say "this isn't worth it" and leave, but I certainly don't feel like trying to have a good time together. Sometimes she reaches the breaking point and snaps, but even that is very gentle when it happens. Inside I know that she doesn't deserve to be treated like that. I should be more like her affair partner, excited and joking and compliment-y and whatever. She put on a special robe for me tonight. I'll try and compliment her on it. She will not keep bending over backwards to make you happy as a way to show you how sorry she is about cheating. It's not realistic and not fair to expect her to kiss your ass forever. The fact that you are not married makes this a no-brainer to me: walk away. I mean why would you consider marrying a woman who has already proven she will cheat on you? Yeah, I know it's not a guarantee she will cheat again BUT it is a pretty good indicator of just who she is. Another strange thing you said is how EXCITED you were after she cheated that she now had the opportunity to learn and grow from betraying you. This sounds so insane its difficult to comprehend what you could possibly mean by saying this. I think you need counseling to help you understand why you are so willing to idealize your GF and, probably, other women as well. Its not healthy because its not reality. She is human, just like you.
bigman1 Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Maiq, Maybe I missed it, and I am trying to follow the story here, but I need your help. Why did your SO cheat? What's the story behind that? How can you reconcile based solely on her desire to make amends and make you happy? This seems like a recipe for disaster. This whole mess seems so disjointed to me that I cannot understand why you are trying to reconcile, why she is sorry besides the obvious cheating, why she cheated, how it was fully uncovered, what is the story with your friend who banged your girl, why so many details have been avoided, and that is just the tip. It sounds to me like your girl cheated with your friend. You found out and now she is really sorry and tries to make you laugh and wears your favorite robe. You, still struggling with the concept but not the actual details of the whole thing, want to figure out how to reconcile with minimal pain and maximum rug sweeping with a woman who is not your wife and at a stage in life where you all are just figuring out what you want to be now that you are kind of grown up. Maybe I missed it. You don't want to put HER through the stress of giving YOU the details of her betrayal and you describe this as a "conundrum". With all due respect, you need help. You are broken, maybe co-dependent or something. You are going to get hurt again and again and again. She will cheat again and again and eventually she will leave you. She has a free pass and knows that you are so needy that no matter what she does, you will be there to "love her". Later, you will pick another broken woman and repeat the process. Sorry to be so harsh, but not only is the handwriting on the wall about this mess, but the fat lady is singing what is written. Fix you, then figure out what her problem is and then decide if you want that problem in your life.
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