Is WS "Fog" just gas-lighting to keep A going?

[snappytomcat]

I think this is close.

 

I think that fog is the ACT of a WS deluding themselves.

 

Fog simply refers to the broken thought processees that most WS's seem to display while in an affair.

 

Not all WS's are "foggy". Some are quite rational when they carry on their affair...and some are quite deluded. Most are somewhere between those two states.

 

"Fog" isn't an 'excuse', isn't something that mystically/magically alleviates the WS of their responsibility for their choices...it's simply an acknowledgement of the fact that they probably never gave much thought to that responsibility when they were MAKING those choices.

 

It's not a defense that they can rely on to avoid facing the reality of their actions...it's simply realizing that they probably weren't grounded in reality while they were doing what they were doing.

 

Using the term "fog" isn't instant forgiveness, a "get out of jail free" card, or a way for someone to say "there, there...it's ok...you didn't do anything wrong".

 

I'm not even sure where that misconception (continually) comes from.

owl you express what I want to say so well,how my husband described it as a fog,not as an excuse,who took 100%responsibility,he just said the only way he could describe it,was like his head was in a fog,like it wasn't real,thanks for this post owl

[notserene]

owl you express what I want to say so well,how my husband described it as a fog,not as an excuse,who took 100%responsibility,he just said the only way he could describe it,was like his head was in a fog,like it wasn't real,thanks for this post owl

 

My husband said, "I felt like a fake person when I was cheating." not just the lying part of it, but like he was actually not being himself with OW.

[Spectre]

It's just interesting how many times I have been told I cannot possibly know or understand how a BS thinks or feels, and yet countless BS's are 100% they know exactly how "every" WS thinks or feels.

 

I don't know about others, but as someone who is a BS(or rather, I have never been married, but have been cheated on) I do find that cheaters can't exactly know how deep this betrayal hurts unless they have experienced it themselves. I know the idea is that if a person genuinely cares about you..they will be hurting knowing that they caused you pain. That is valid, but I don't think the sting goes quite as deep.

 

I certainly can't tell a cheater what they are feeling, but you can usually tell what they are NOT feeling, just by viewing their actions.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Spectre

[Owl6118]

The reason I don't like the fog idea is because it feels like a crutch. It's the same reason I don't like the addiction analogy. There is an element of "I can't help it." And a cheater CAN help it. They are not in some psychotic state. They KNOW what they are doing.

 

As an alcoholic who has now been sober for two decades, maybe I can offer a thought about the addiction analogy.

 

First of all, I agree that it is an imperfect analogy. Chemical addition is a very direct biological mechanism, though not a fully understood one. Someday it may be curable by some kind of direct medical intervention. It could happen. I doubt, by contrast, that there will ever be a "stay faithful" pill or gene splice.

 

But setting that aside, there are clearly a lot of behavioral analogies between the behaviors of addicts and the behavior of many waywards.

 

Perhaps if we look at the way the question of addiction was actually handled as I was wrestling with alcoholism, it would help salvage some of the utility of it for thinking about infidelity too.

 

The key thing is, in its context in AA, addiction is ALWAYS presented as one side of a paradox, NEVER alone.

 

Yes, I was addicted to alcohol, so in a very real sense, I was suffering from a disease and was doing things that were a result of the disease process. You can make an abstrat argument that I was therefore not responsible. And there is some dry, abstract logical merit to that argument. BUT, and the but is critical, AA taught me from Day 1 that the ONLY way I would recover was if I accepted total responsibility for my actions and decisions anyway, and owned them and the damage they caused 100%. They ONLY way. NO other.

 

So, it's a paradox. I am an addict. Yet I would not be sober and enjoying the unspeakable blessing of being fully present in the lives of my loved ones if I had stopped there and just laid it all off on a disease. No, I got and stayed sober through voluntarily accepting responsibility for the decision to drink and all the outcomes that came from it, and choosing to make a different decision forever going forward, and working to apologize to those I harmed and make amends through different actions going forward, forever.

 

Perhaps thinking of it this way would help get the right lessons out of it for thinking about infidelity. In "the fog," waywards show addict-like behavior. They hold mutually-contraditory ideas and deny any contradiction. They cannot connect behaviors to consequences. They do the same deviastating things over and over and expect different results. Their thought process, is, from the outside, irrational--clearly impaired and disordered. Yet that no more lets them off the hook than it lets off the chemical addict. The road to recovery is the same: it starts with accepting total responsibility for your choices and all their consequences.

 

Or to boil it down to a sentence: even if waywards do suffer from something akin to addiction during their affairs, it doesn't let them off the hook one damn bit, not if they seek any kind of healing and wholeness and health and joy in life.

[janedoe67]

I like the above explanation. It seems to balance things well.

 

For me, there was a "fog" of sorts, but I also knew somewhere that I was the one who created that fog FOR MYSELF, not so much because it would make my ability to understand that I was doing something wrong disappear, but so I wouldn't have to look at it.

 

In the context of mental illness, a person who has a complete psychotic break literally...breaks with reality and cannot understand that the actions they take may be wrong. A person in a depressed or manic episode, however, still knows what is real. They still know when they are cheating or running up huge debts or racing around wrecklessly that those actions are wrong. And no, I am not saying cheating is a mental illness...it is NOT. You won't find it anywhere in the DSM.

 

It is possible that a drunk driver has not control and doesn't even realize he has hit a kid on a bicycle. But he is STILL responsible because he chose to have those drinks. No matter what fog may be present, the WS CHOSE their actions.

[forbidden_love]

I call it an addiction. Buti also call it love. The feelings are real and not imaginary and for me and mm have lasted years. Sometimes doing silly things just to see each other for five minutes. It is definitely love. Deep romantic love is hard to let go. It gives you an immediate high.

[Owl]

I call it an addiction. Buti also call it love. The feelings are real and not imaginary and for me and mm have lasted years. Sometimes doing silly things just to see each other for five minutes. It is definitely love. Deep romantic love is hard to let go. It gives you an immediate high.

 

Not sure how this pertains to 'the fog', or responsibility for your actions while in 'the fog'?

[Snowflower]

 

The reason I don't like the fog idea is because it feels like a crutch. It's the same reason I don't like the addiction analogy. There is an element of "I can't help it." And a cheater CAN help it. They are not in some psychotic state. They KNOW what they are doing.

 

Just a question, what do you mean when you say the fog idea is like a crutch? If so, who uses this "crutch?" The WS or the BS?

 

As for the element of "I can't help it," how many times has it been posted here by MP and AP along the lines of "It just happened" or "You can't help who you fall in love with?" Those are perfect examples of foggy thinking.

 

Of course, anyone outside of the affair can see the irrational thinking those statements embody. What is obvious to someone outside the affair is not always obvious to someone caught in the emotional throes of an extramarital relationship.

 

Call it fog, call it delusional thinking, call it being irrational, but many affair partners seem to display some pretty "out there" thinking and behaviors.

 

Sure, some affair partners/cheating spouses do not have foggy thinking, perhaps those who compartmentalize well or are serial adulterers or are truly leaving their marriages. However, many APs tend to be a little more confused and display the foggy thinking.

 

And again, the fog is not any type of excuse or does not somehow makes the affair less damaging. I'm not sure where that misconception comes from either.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Snowflower
reworded for clarity

[janedoe67]

Just a question, what do you mean when you say the fog idea is like a crutch? If so, who uses this "crutch?" The WS or the BS?

 

As for the element of "I can't help it," how many times has it been posted here by MP and AP along the lines of "It just happened" or "You can't help who you fall in love with?" Those are perfect examples of foggy thinking.

 

Of course, anyone outside of the affair can see the irrational thinking those statements embody. What is obvious to someone outside the affair is not always obvious to someone caught in the emotional throes of an extramarital relationship.

 

Call it fog, call it delusional thinking, call it being irrational, but many affair partners seem to display some pretty "out there" thinking and behaviors.

 

Sure, some affair partners/cheating spouses do not have foggy thinking, perhaps those who compartmentalize well or are serial adulterers or are truly leaving their marriages. However, many APs tend to be a little more confused and display the foggy thinking.

 

And again, the fog is not any type of excuse or does not somehow makes the affair less damaging. I'm not sure where that misconception comes from either.

 

I think it's a crutch for a WS to evade responsibility, and it can be a crutch for a BS to hold out hope and stay in that in-between land.

[anne1707]

I think it's a crutch for a WS to evade responsibility, and it can be a crutch for a BS to hold out hope and stay in that in-between land.

 

As far as I am concerned I was in fog during the affair but it in no way impacts on my responsibility. It meant I was avoiding reality, that's all.

[janedoe67]

As far as I am concerned I was in fog during the affair but it in no way impacts on my responsibility. It meant I was avoiding reality, that's all.

 

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant active WS's. Especially toward the end when reality is crashing in one them.

 

I have read things on forums that almost encourage people to treat their spouse like they have dissociative identity disorder. I can see how that might make a BS feel better, but a WS is not 2 different people. They are a WS.

[sidney2718]

I think it's a crutch for a WS to evade responsibility, and it can be a crutch for a BS to hold out hope and stay in that in-between land.

 

I don't. I think that it is a description of a mental state in which logic is mostly absent. Some of it is a crutch and some people try to make the most of it in order to evade responsibility. But we've seen too many examples of WS's who simply cannot admit that they have changed their lives. They don't "get" their BS's reactions at all. That's fog.

 

I don't think this stage lasts very long, but it is something akin to falling in love where the sun is always shining and great happiness soaks through everything.

 

Or, as the foggy person might think: how can something this wonderful be cheating?

[sidney2718]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant active WS's. Especially toward the end when reality is crashing in one them.

 

I have read things on forums that almost encourage people to treat their spouse like they have dissociative identity disorder. I can see how that might make a BS feel better, but a WS is not 2 different people. They are a WS.

 

OK. Now I understand you better. Yes, I've read threads like that too.

[anne1707]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I meant active WS's. Especially toward the end when reality is crashing in one them.

 

I have read things on forums that almost encourage people to treat their spouse like they have dissociative identity disorder. I can see how that might make a BS feel better, but a WS is not 2 different people. They are a WS.

 

Now that I "get" and sadly I too have seen what you refer to in your second paragraph

[forbidden_love]

Not sure how this pertains to 'the fog', or responsibility for your actions while in 'the fog'?[/quote. ] Simples, there was no fog there is love. When u r in love you make decisions without thinking of the consequences. Not rocket science.

[janedoe67]

Not sure how this pertains to 'the fog', or responsibility for your actions while in 'the fog'?[/quote. ] Simples, there was no fog there is love. When u r in love you make decisions without thinking of the consequences. Not rocket science.

 

Translation: You know what you are doing is wrong but you like it so you do it anyway

[atreides]

I call it an addiction. Buti also call it love. The feelings are real and not imaginary and for me and mm have lasted years. Sometimes doing silly things just to see each other for five minutes. It is definitely love. Deep romantic love is hard to let go. It gives you an immediate high.

 

I disagree in part...

Yes it is an addiction, but in my opinion to coin it from a song "addicted to love" is a poor excuse when it is in point of fact only part of the qualities you list that help define love, such as "deep romantic" but a far cry from love itself. As with others, saying feelings are real, does not equate it to love.

Moreover, the use of "feelings are real" as if to qualify the affair is a travesty in of itself when of course what is felt is real, addictions are as real as it gets.

 

However the travesty is that we are to believe that because the feelings are real, that it therefore must be love and therefore we have changed the definition of love to suit our own exploits such as adding deception, secrecy and betrayal to the mix to obtain this "love"....

when in the end those WS whom have com full circle and are lucky enough to reconcile know the whole of love.

 

An addiction like an affair only seeks the high, love is much more than that.

 

Please don't short change what love is with only part of its qualities, it must also endure the absolute lows for us to appreciate its highs or we are cheating love itself on top of the infidelity itself.

Edited April 25, 2014 by atreides

[anne1707]

I call it an addiction. Buti also call it love. The feelings are real and not imaginary and for me and mm have lasted years. Sometimes doing silly things just to see each other for five minutes. It is definitely love. Deep romantic love is hard to let go. It gives you an immediate high.

 

Fog does not mean that the feelings are not real. But it does mean that the reasoning of the WS during the affair is distorted and way off.

[notserene]

. When u r in love you make decisions without thinking of the consequences. Not rocket science.

 

And nowhere is that more evident than in "affair love" which requires deception and betrayal to exist. You have to close your mind to how your actions are affecting others.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Feelings and fog are two different things.

 

Fog refers to the irrational rationalizations that a WS often uses to justify their actions. APs often feed the fog.

 

While I agree feelings are real, they are however not necessarily based on truth nor are they static.

 

That is why most people use more than feelings to guide them, as they are unreliable.

[nightmare01]

I think "the fog" is the period of time where the WS learns what to say and not say to their BS. In other words, how to lie.

[Red123]

As far as I am concerned I was in fog during the affair but it in no way impacts on my responsibility. It meant I was avoiding reality, that's all.

 

That's pretty much how my H explains it. He was able to justify his actions in his fantasy world until reality hit, then as he puts it everything became clear again. He takes full responsibility but states that during the A he felt like another person. Is that the fog? Maybe. He screwed up regardless of his state of mind.

[compulsivedancer]

I think "the fog" is the period of time where the WS learns what to say and not say to their BS. In other words, how to lie.

 

Generally the term is used to describe the time DURING the affair. Many WSs snap more or less out of it on DDay, well before they've "learned what to say and what not to say to a BS."

[Owl6118]

Generally the term is used to describe the time DURING the affair. Many WSs snap more or less out of it on DDay, well before they've "learned what to say and what not to say to a BS."

 

Not sure, but I think he meant the fog begins when the WS learns to lie to the BS during the affair, not after D Day.

[compulsivedancer]

Not sure, but I think he meant the fog begins when the WS learns to lie to the BS during the affair, not after D Day.

 

That could be. I've always been ridiculously truthful. To the extent that I had trouble leaving out details in stories because it felt like lying.

 

However, during the "fog," I tricked myself into believing that I wasn't lying to H if I never told a lie. By the time we were in a full-blown affair, I didn't care. When H finally asked me and I lied to his face, I felt really guilty but couldn't see another recourse. Even though I'd been having sex with another man, that moment was the moment I realized I was really lying. To me, that's fog: being able to rationalize actions like that for so long. "It's okay as I long as I don't do..."

 

H said it was really scary because he didn't think I could lie, and knowing that I could lie to him for 6 months caused him to question everything.