Hot-cold, and becoming addictive to your partner.

[somedude81]

Recently in one of my business classes the professor did a lecture on behavior and how people learn. One topic he focused on was Operant Conditioning. The basic definition is

 

“A type of conditioning in which desired voluntary behavior leads to a reward or prevents a punishment. Behavior is a function of its consequences.”

 

The professor talked about schedules of reinforcement, which basically was how often to reward somebody for their behavior and how often the person would keep doing the behavior after you reward them.

 

One aspect he really focused on was called “variable ratio.” The quick summary was that good or behavior would be rewarded on a seemingly random basis. Variable ratio lead to very high performance and very slow extinction of the behavior.

 

He started giving examples of variable ratio, slot machines, mystery shopper (you never know when they will show up so you always have to be good), then he mentioned the hot and cold boyfriend/girlfriend. The boyfriend that is sweet and kind, tells you he loves you and buys you stuff, and then ignores you for days on a whim. The girlfriend that cooks and cleans, makes a lunch for you, texts you while you’re at work and then flirts with other men in front of you. He said that those people are very addictive and hard to leave behind.

 

I don’t have much relationship experience myself, but I’ve heard lots of stories of both men and women who were with hot and cold partners, people who treated them poorly, but they could never leave that partner because they were addicted. The term is also called push/pull.

 

I’m wondering if it’s possible to be hot-cold on purpose to make your partner more into you, or if that would just be a form of manipulation. Perhaps it’s something that can only be done if it comes naturally to somebody. I certainly don’t do it naturally, though I think that I might be boring because of that. Also, would it work on everybody or just a certain type of people?

 

Does anybody have any experience with that type of relationship dynamic, on either side?

[notserene]

Ugh, manipulation. And I don't know why any mature person with normal self-esteem would put up with that for any length of time.

 

Push/pull is supposed to be a trait associated with borderline personality disorder.

[somedude81]

Ugh, manipulation. And I don't know why any mature person with normal self-esteem would put up with that for any length of time.

 

Push/pull is supposed to be a trait associated with borderline personality disorder.

Interesting, I never heard that there was a connection with BPD.

 

So a person that naturally does push/pull could have BPD?

 

What kind of person would be susceptible to sticking with a person who does it?

[ThaWholigan]

I have little experience of it (none in an LTR-capacity), but I have a somewhat firm grasp of what your professor is talking about as I've seen it in many other relationships.

 

It seems to be defined different to some people, who might see it as power games, while others would simply see it as providing tension or friction. Push/pull will work on people who thrive on that kind of tension and that kind of friction - and most people respond to it in various ways. I'm not one to use generalizations or group people into categories, but I would split most people into two distinct categories on a spectrum: People who thrive on comfort, and people who thrive on tension.

 

Someone who thrives on comfort would not only feel anxious with a "hot-cold" partner, they would almost be turned off by it. Someone who thrives on the friction and tension will be helpless to hot-cold unless they are self-aware enough to clock their patterns and find someone who is responsible with tension.

 

Basically, there are somewhat more constructive ways to use push/pull with a partner without resorting to this kind of manipulation. It can be harmless depending on the kind of person you're dealing with (i.e. someone who knows the game and likes to play it) or it can play havoc with someone's self-esteem and even identity within a relationship.

 

One thing is for sure though - your professor is right. They are notoriously addictive. Their praise, attention and their love/lust becomes highly valuable if given in doses. To me, the easiest way to be push/pull is simply to have more space. Spend time away from each other on occasion - have other things going on in your life that assume importance. It builds up tension, and your attention becomes highly anticipated and thus, highly desirable and valuable. If you're "too available", things get boring pretty fast. Unless of course, you find a person who thrives on availability and comfort. Someone who loves consistency in actions and on occasion more predictable displays of tension/friction.

[iiiii]

I've had someone try to play me like that before.

 

Yes, it is manipulative.

 

Yes, if skillfully done then it would probably work to increase the interest of some women - at least until they see through it.

 

If you try to do it but get it wrong, then they'd either see through you immediately and think you are pathetic, or they will dismiss you for being a rude jerk who can't make up his mind.

 

Does this type of manipulation lead to a good long term relationship? No, I don't think so. At some point you have to stop playing games and start an honest relationship.

[notserene]

Interesting, I never heard that there was a connection with BPD.

 

So a person that naturally does push/pull could have BPD?

 

What kind of person would be susceptible to sticking with a person who does it?

 

I don't know that it's a specific "type" but I'm guessing that people who are convinced that they aren't really worthy of someone's attention might put up with it.

 

People with BPD have very poor control of their emotions, though. I don't think they are being manipulative..."difficult" doesn't begin to describe it.

[somedude81]

I have little experience of it (none in an LTR-capacity), but I have a somewhat firm grasp of what your professor is talking about as I've seen it in many other relationships.

 

It seems to be defined different to some people, who might see it as power games, while others would simply see it as providing tension or friction. Push/pull will work on people who thrive on that kind of tension and that kind of friction - and most people respond to it in various ways. I'm not one to use generalizations or group people into categories, but I would split most people into two distinct categories on a spectrum: People who thrive on comfort, and people who thrive on tension.

 

Someone who thrives on comfort would not only feel anxious with a "hot-cold" partner, they would almost be turned off by it. Someone who thrives on the friction and tension will be helpless to hot-cold unless they are self-aware enough to clock their patterns and find someone who is responsible with tension.

 

Basically, there are somewhat more constructive ways to use push/pull with a partner without resorting to this kind of manipulation. It can be harmless depending on the kind of person you're dealing with (i.e. someone who knows the game and likes to play it) or it can play havoc with someone's self-esteem and even identity within a relationship.

 

One thing is for sure though - your professor is right. They are notoriously addictive. Their praise, attention and their love/lust becomes highly valuable if given in doses. To me, the easiest way to be push/pull is simply to have more space. Spend time away from each other on occasion - have other things going on in your life that assume importance. It builds up tension, and your attention becomes highly anticipated and thus, highly desirable and valuable. If you're "too available", things get boring pretty fast. Unless of course, you find a person who thrives on availability and comfort. Someone who loves consistency in actions and on occasion more predictable displays of tension/friction.

Very interesting Wholigan.

 

I most definitely thrive on comfort. I want a girlfriend who is sweet and kind to me, and I will always love her. Somebody who tries to be hot/cold with me would be ditched. I would never get bored of a girl who is "too available" because I thrive on availability and comfort. Towards the tail end of my relationship my ex was working a lot and I was becoming really frustrated that I couldn't see her as often as I wanted to. I was strongly hinting that I wanted her to cut her hours. I also had thoughts of dumping her if she eventually became too busy for me once she started nursing school.

 

Most likely in my relationship I was too available, too predictable. I never went hot/cold. I always tried to be the best I could be and avoid conflict and maybe that led to my downfall?

 

 

I wonder if there are tests one can do to find out which works better on the other person. I don't want to get into manipulation, but trying to be "too available" sounds like something I can do.

[KaliLove]

Interesting, I never heard that there was a connection with BPD.

 

So a person that naturally does push/pull could have BPD?

 

What kind of person would be susceptible to sticking with a person who does it?

 

You haven't??? It's CLASSIC BPD!

[Candy_Pants]

You're seeing this as a "technique" to get women more interested in you??

 

:facepalm:

[johan]

I think it's something to try if you have nothing real to offer.

 

When you observe it working on a woman you'll lose respect for her (assuming it's possible for you to respect a woman) and then you'll resent her.

 

You really just have to face that ultimately the truth about who you really are is going to come out. When she discovers who you really are, for what that's worth, the fact that you were mostly just screwing with her head is not going to count in your favor.

[somedude81]

I've had someone try to play me like that before.

 

Yes, it is manipulative.

 

Yes, if skillfully done then it would probably work to increase the interest of some women - at least until they see through it.

 

If you try to do it but get it wrong, then they'd either see through you immediately and think you are pathetic, or they will dismiss you for being a rude jerk who can't make up his mind.

 

Does this type of manipulation lead to a good long term relationship? No, I don't think so. At some point you have to stop playing games and start an honest relationship.

"If skilfully done." Heh, it's probably only done skillfully if that's who the person really is and not trying to fake it. Then I guess one has to be a little bit crazy to pull of a convincing push/pull.

 

Did it actually work on you?

 

I do agree that there shouldn't be games in a relationship. But maybe there has to be some games, so one person wouldn't be bored? I don't know.

[somedude81]

You're seeing this as a "technique" to get women more interested in you??

 

:facepalm:

I think you should reread my posts a little more carefully.

 

The main reason I made this thread is trying to understand why people stay in relationships with people who are bad to them. That combined with my recent lecture piqued my interest. I'm also looking for any relevant information to why my relationship failed and how to try to do better the next time.

 

ThaWholigan made a great point about being too available and possibly being boring.

 

As for it being a technique, it does seem to work. I remember a thread you made a while ago.

Edited April 21, 2014 by somedude81

[Anela]

That's manipulating someone, and affecting their self-esteem to a point that really isn't good. I didn't want to be with the guy who did that to me, what had me all messed up was that he screwed with my head so much, that I felt "less than" in a way - too screwed up to be with anyone, and unable to handle the rejection from them (but also not wanting to even know them, because I was thoroughly disgusted).

[somedude81]

That's manipulating someone, and affecting their self-esteem to a point that really isn't good. I didn't want to be with the guy who did that to me, what had me all messed up was that he screwed with my head so much, that I felt "less than" in a way - too screwed up to be with anyone, and unable to handle the rejection from them (but also not wanting to even know them, because I was thoroughly disgusted).

That sounds really horrible. Shame that it happened to you.

 

The last thing I want to do is damage a girl's self-esteem.

[Imported]

If you date multiple women and do well with all of them, you will tend to do this without trying.

[LuvNlost89]

My partner does this. the push and pull...hot and cold. I think for some they do it so the partner is more into them and want more and more when the other partner feeds them crumbs and is cold. Some do it out of manipulation.

[iiiii]

Did it actually work on you?

 

 

Nah not really. At first I was really flattered when the guy paid me attention (I hadn't really noticed him around before, but he was attractive and seemed nice). But then as soon as I showed some interest and agreed to going on a date at some point, he immediately did the hard to get thing and said he was too busy or just didn't reply at all when I suggested specific times to meet up for a coffee. Then a week or two later when I'd pretty much given up on him, he started to flirt with me again as if nothing had happened. I was just confused by that and eventually decided he was too much of a jerk to bother with.

 

When I asked around about him, I eventually found out that he was a bit of a man-wh*re/player and had had one night stands with LOTS of girls at university, so I guess the tactic must have worked for him sometimes!

 

Maybe it just didn't work on me since I was only interested in an actual relationship with a decent guy - if I were just interested in getting laid with someone new and interesting, I can see how it may have worked to spark that much interest?

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

I do agree that there shouldn't be games in a relationship. But maybe there has to be some games, so one person wouldn't be bored? I don't know.

 

For some people it might add a bit of spice maybe, but I think it's walking a bit of a narrow line. I figure in a relationship, so long as both people have the other person's best interests at heart, and are doing their best to communicate honestly and openly, then you're doing the best you can do. If you're deliberately trying to manipulate someone you sort of fail on both counts, don't you?

Edited April 21, 2014 by iiiii

[Emilia]

One thing is for sure though - your professor is right. They are notoriously addictive. Their praise, attention and their love/lust becomes highly valuable if given in doses. To me, the easiest way to be push/pull is simply to have more space. Spend time away from each other on occasion - have other things going on in your life that assume importance. It builds up tension, and your attention becomes highly anticipated and thus, highly desirable and valuable. If you're "too available", things get boring pretty fast. Unless of course, you find a person who thrives on availability and comfort. Someone who loves consistency in actions and on occasion more predictable displays of tension/friction.

If you were 15 years older I'd marry you.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I used to like it when I was much younger and had very unhealthy romantic attachments. Now I dump a guy in 2 seconds flat if he is being inconsistent.

 

I like tension in the sense of sarcastic banter or teasing. But withdrawing emotionally? No thanks.

 

If you want to attract dysfunctional women without real relationship potential, I guess you can go ahead.

[Shepp]

If its true in anyway, which I don't know, then I don't think it wold work as a pre planned technique anyway!

 

My fiancée was queen of the push/pull back in the day. I want you, your oh so perfect/ but it cant happen, I'm too messed up.

I cant say I found it unattractive or I wouldn't be where I am today but I can say I'm a lot happier now we're more settled.

 

That said it was genuine, she didn't mean to - I think game playing is more than a little pathetic and if I caught on to a hint of that i'd be so over someone! and I do think its obvious, when its genuine or not! My gf is perpetually up and down, its just how she's wired, it was never for my benefit.

[MissBee]

It's manipulative and it's addictive but it's drama. Addiction is not healthy.

 

Having a relationship where you're addicted to the manipulation, drama, push-pull is very tiring. Subconsciously I used to choose relationships like this...believe me...it was addictive but when you're addicted you are not in control and everything this person does has immense power over you. It's not a good feeling and it's not what healthy relationships are made of.

 

I think all relationships should have built in space or finding ways to keep the spark alive and have your partner miss and crave you sometimes, but in a healthy way.Slot machines and the hot-cold partner are addictive and often lead to destruction for the persons addicted.

[somedude81]

My partner does this. the push and pull...hot and cold. I think for some they do it so the partner is more into them and want more and more when the other partner feeds them crumbs and is cold. Some do it out of manipulation.

If you know that your partner does it to you, why do are you with him?

 

Would I be wrong in assuming that you enjoy it? If not you'd be with a guy who doesn't do it.

[jphcbpa]

Read this last week and really hit home for me.

 

Many people find themselves enamored with what they cannot have. Unavailability and not being able to have what you want, although painful, can be deliciously enticing in many ways

 

That miserable deprived place feels so comfy and familiar to us. Even though we know where it leads to letdown, loneliness, sitting by the phone..we will let that feeling lead us around by the nose

 

Wanting what we cannot have is a universal dilemma. It is so easy to conjure up fantasies about how delicious it would be if we could only have "that", even though we know we never could. Then we do not have to deal with what we do not have. And we do not have to face issues like intimacy, commitment and love.

 

Learn to recognize longing and yearning for what we cannot have. And ask for the courage and wisdom to learn about the true delights of available, requited love.

 

- Melody Beattie "More Language of Letting Go"

[somedude81]

I don't believe in quantity of attention, I believe in quality. I also believe in being your own person and having your own life. Independence. Chiefly because, it gives me space too. Just tell me briefly what is going on, so I'm not left to guess.

 

Having said that, I cannot cope with the push-pull. I've dated enough to know that when a person starts ignoring you, it's on the way out. You can try and bring it closer to you again, but it will be futile. For whatever reason, they are done. And since being on the receiving end of the unknown silence is more emotionally gut-wrenching to me than going to the dentist, I walk.

Push/pull is all about quality of the attention. It ranges from great quality, loving attention, to being mean and pretending you don't exist.

 

You sound like you have a lot relationship experience and a good amount of confidence.

 

I hate hearing stories of women who are stuck in the situation and are in a prison of their own making.

[MissBee]

Read this last week and really hit home for me.

 

Can't like this enough!

 

That used to be the story of my life, particularly the idea that the miserable deprived place feels comfy. That is often the worse part. You hate it, but you're also so used to it and it's your comfort zone so you just keep choosing it like a masochist.

 

However, it does get exhausting and depletes you.