I need an instruction manual...

[TommyJohn77]

Well...this certainly is a forum I never thought I'd be posting in. As I browse through everything, it seems that everyone has a story. Here is mine:

 

I've been married to my best friend for almost 8 years. We've been together for over 10. The one quality I could always count on with her was that she ALWAYS told me the truth. That's now completely out the window.

 

Three or four years ago, our marriage was in shambles. We got along fine. We had a beautiful daughter together. We both had fulfilling jobs. Made good money. Had a nice house. The American Dream, right? The one thing we didn't have was a healthy sex life. I wanted it. She didn't. I took to Facebook and an old friend from high school to discuss my marital problems. Turns out, she had the exact same problem with her husband. We took comfort in knowing that there was someone else out there struggling through the same things. That comfort eventually turned into inappropriate conversations about how we'd satisfy each other's sexual needs if we were to ever get together. Those conversations turned into an actual meet-up, where I showed up, unannounced, at her husband's work Christmas party at a local bowling alley. I pretended I was someone else, made conversation with her and her husband, all in the name of doing something dangerous, thrilling, and to have an opportunity to see this person I'd grown so close to, face to face.

 

Eventually, that "relationship" grew to a point where I realized how dangerous it was. We made plans to meet up at a hotel but I cancelled. Chickened out. To me, it was bad enough this emotional affair had grown to the point it had. I certainly didn't want to make it worse by adding a physical component to it. I knew I wanted to end this but I didn't know how. I contacted a friend my wife and I share, who I know cheated on her husband and was able to work through it. My goal was to get advice on how to end it and resume my happy marriage. She had other plans. She told me that I HAD to tell my wife or she'd do it for me. Threatened with that, I went home and told her. I didn't tell her everything, just enough to where if her friend asked, she'd have something to tell. Her friend wound up filling in all the gaps...well...that and my cell phone which still had all the texts, phone calls, and Facebook messages.

 

My wife was furious. She left the house one day telling me she was going to see a lawyer. It scared the absolute hell out of me. I knew at that moment that if she decided to take me back, I'd never do anything to threaten our marriage again.

 

She did decide to forgive me and my promise to never again seek out that type of attention from another woman remains fulfilled to this day.

 

Fast forward to two months ago...

 

My wife and I went out for lunch on a rare day when we were both off of work but our daughter had school. During this lunch, she brought up that situation from years ago and told me she grew to understand why I did it. She said that because she continued to have a low sex drive, if I ever wanted to "scratch that itch", she'd be okay with it, as long as I didn't pull away from her emotionally the way I had years ago. I was confused by this and told her as much. I told her I had no desire to have sex with another woman. Still, she said that if I ever changed my mind, she was fine with it. During this same conversation, she asked that if she were to ever cheat on me, would I want to know about it. I told her no.

 

Less than a week later, with suspicions high because of this conversation, I took her iPhone while she was sleeping and started snooping. I came across a Facebook conversation with an old boyfriend of hers where they wrote things that would make the author of 50 Shades of Grey blush. I was furious...but at the same time, felt like a hypocrite because I had basically done the same thing years ago. Still, I woke her up to confront her about it. She assured me it was something she was doing to "recharge" her sexual engine for me. She said it was nothing for me to worry about. I told her I wanted complete transparency. She declined, saying she didn't want to feel like I was her father. She also went into what might've led her to that point, telling me how I didn't make her feel like she was "worth the effort", citing examples of times where she wanted to go out on a date and I'd rather just stay home. These allegations were 100% justified and I promised to her I would change. How stupid was I to go along with that?

 

Two weeks later, she texted me asking if it would be alright if she went out for drinks with her old college roommate that Friday night (3/14). I was hesitant at first but because the last two weeks had been among the best we'd had as a married couple, I decided to allow it. I left work early to pick up our daughter from school and she went to downtown DC at around 5 or 6pm. I knew where she was because we both have the "Find a Friend" app installed on our iPhones. She texted me to say she was turning her phone off to save battery. I didn't hear from her again until 10:30pm, when she texted me, telling me she wanted to have sex that night. Wanting to do something different, I decided to put on a suit, turn down the lights, light a candle, pour some wine, and wait for her. She walked in the door somewhat inebriated. We went on to have sex and go to bed.

 

The next morning, I happened to glance at her Facebook page when I noticed a post from the old college roommate she was supposedly with the night before. The post said something along the lines of, "It was great seeing you a few weeks ago. Can't wait to do it again!"

 

Immediately, I knew something was up. I asked my wife who she was REALLY with the night before. She said she was alone...but met someone at the bar. After pressing her on this, she finally admitted to kissing him...multiple times. I was devastated. She cried quite a bit, fearing that I was going to leave her. I told her I wanted to work through it together and that's what we decided to try to do.

 

Last week, I'm on a business trip when a colleague of mine came onto me pretty strong. I relented but decided I was going to tell my wife about it the next day. When I did, she strongly suggested that she'd be willing to "give me a pass" and let me sleep with her. She told me how much it turned her on, knowing another woman wanted me in that way. Although it was probably the wrong thing to do, I went with it. I made up a series of elaborate stories about my sexual encounters with this woman. None of these actually happened but my wife continued telling me how hot it got her and how she couldn't wait for me to get home to have sex with her.

 

During the course of these conversations, I got her to tell me a bit more about her night with this guy at the bar. She told me that rather than him walking her to the Metro Station at the end of the night as she had previously told me, they actually went back to his car. They made out there and she wound up giving him oral sex. I was floored! Couldn't believe it. Then she told me she did in fact keep in touch with this person via email. She had set up a secret account at Yahoo. She even told me her email address. But I couldn't react naturally because as far as she knew, I was having the same type of fun on the road. I decided when I got home, I'd fess up and tell her everything. Imagine...being nervous about telling my wife I was NOT sleeping with another woman!

 

When I got home, we had two hours of the most passionate sex we've ever had. The next morning when we woke up...round two. I decided that morning to tell her that none of those things happened while I was on the road, other than her coming on to me and me resisting. She took it pretty well but was visibly agitated. She left to go to a few appointments. While she was gone, I used the password recovery option on Yahoo to get into that secret email account. What I discovered this time was more than I ever thought I'd see...she had an account set up at Ashley Madison (those people can burn in hell as far as I'm concerned).

 

I confronted her about it...and this time, she came clean on everything (as far as I know). Yes, she had an account there. Yes, she set up the meeting with the guy at the bar on this website. No, there were no others (which I actually believe). But the one thing she told me which crushed me completely...was she saw this person again a week later when I decided to take my daughter to visit my mother. My goal in that trip was to give her some space to decide what she wanted...and I needed some space for myself. Little did I know that I was opening up the door to another encounter with this other man.

 

While I was out of the house, she texted me to tell me she was deleting the Yahoo account. She said she wanted to put it in the past and move on. However, just before, she told me she sent the other man a "goodbye email", telling him she needed to work on her marriage and would no longer be contacting him. Problem there is she erased the evidence before I could see it.

 

I want to believe that she truly broke it off with this person but without seeing it with my own eyes, who the hell knows?

 

Since learning all the details there are to learn back on Wednesday of last week, I feel like a crazy person. One minute I'm fine...the next, I'm obsessing over things. I'm angry, I'm confused, I'm sad. I'll go from deciding I'm moving on to being able to think of nothing but. It's a horrible feeling. What's worse is it seems that my wife is getting frustrated with the roller coaster of emotions I'm feeling. She'll apologize for what she did but it doesn't sound sincere. She says she wants to spend the rest of her life with me...but why the hell should I believe her? She says it's over with the other man and she's ready to move forward with me...but what if that desire comes back? How can I ever trust her again? How can I ever go through a day without obsessing over everything? How can I ever get to a point where I'm certain she's told me all there is to know? If there's an instruction manual for how a guy whose wife cheated on him is supposed to feel, I sure as hell would like to know about it.

 

Please help...

Edited April 15, 2014 by TommyJohn77

[Darren Steez]

Wow, I'm pretty floored. There seems to be a lot of resentment from your wife's side, but I'm also not really reading any true remorse from her and that's dangerous for you.

 

Seems she likes the thrill of cheating and has no problem lying to you and continuing to do it. My take is you're just getting a tip of the iceberg, and you can be absolutely sure she's had sex.

 

Your guilt for what you did is now driving your willingness to forgive, let's get it straight. You did cheat, absolutely, and you were forced to confession but from there on out it's all on her, and it seems she actually went further..much further.

 

I ask what a deal breaker is for you? I doubt she sent a no contact email, she's not remorseful. Are you going to MC? It will take a lot of work but total transparency is a must. All I fear you've done is drive the cheating underground.

 

Get a keylogger for the computer/laptop. Software to retrieve the texts from her phone. Place a VAR in her car. Do that like today.

 

Collect the evidence and stop rugsweeping and accepting her cheating and lack of work towards R.

 

Good luck.

[Cpt]

lol at the author of 50 shades of grey blushing analogy.

 

End it, this marriage was over a long time ago. I can confirm with 99.99% certainty that she has been cheating on you since before you had your EA. If you have to ask why, then i'll answer that with a single question....

 

When you had passionate sex (at the thought of you cheating with another woman) and round two the next morning, do you feel that your wife legitimately had a low sex drive all along?

 

Unless you can confirm that there were medical treatments conducted for her low sex drive, she was busy getting it off with some other dude(s).

 

The fact that she gets off at the thought of you cheating on her is disturbing.

 

P.s when a wife says she is okay with you getting it somewhere else, it means she is also getting it somewhere else unless she is genuinely asexual.

 

End it or you will keep hurting yourself.

[bobwhite007]

Surely this can't be real.

[TaraMaiden]

First of all you have to establish just how much you BOTH want to save this. You not only have to determine this from her, but you must do some personal soul-searching for yourself, and ask yourself precisely how hard you're willing to work at this.

On a scale of 1 - 10, from 0% to 100%.

 

Then see if your numbers/percentages match.

 

if they don't - give up now.

If they match, or are close, then there might still be a chance...

 

Then get counselling. Serious counselling.

Re-establish Trust, Communication and Respect, because those three are totally absent right now.

 

Counselling isn't necessarily about keeping people together - but it strips away the BS and lays your cards on the table.

Brutal honesty is absolutely vital, if this is to get anywhere.

But it will be long, slow, painful and you will never be the same people you were.

[bobwhite007]

don't be discussing marital problems with a member of the opposite sex, next thing you know, banging peepees.

[BetrayedH]

Read the thread pinned at the top of this forum, Things that every wayward spouse needs to know. It will show you what true remorse looks like. Look for actions, not just words.

 

You two are now referred to as 'madhatters,' meaning that you've both been wayward spouses and betrayed spouses. It's exponentially more difficult to recover from this because you must do a remarkable amount of work to demonstrate your trustworthiness and you have to do it for someone you don't trust. The tough part is separating out your affairs and each owning your poor decisions without one justifying the other. It's pretty unlikely that your wife will be able to do this; she's going to try to blame her affair(s) on you as that is what she's told herself to justify being on Ashley Madison. I know this because it's where I went after discovering my wife's affair.

 

Survivinginfidelity is a particularly good website because it has an "I can relate" section with a thread dedicated to madhatters.

 

It is possible to recover from this but make no mistake, it's rough and it takes years. Successfully reconciling takes two things: (1) A truly remorseful wayward spouse and (2) A truly forgiving betrayed spouse. But #2 CANNOT come before #1. You both need to have no contact with former affair partners, be fully and proactively transparent, get brutally honest with one another, get into individual counseling and marriage counseling, rededicate serious amounts of time to the marriage, and put some serious boundaries in place where neither of you interacts with anyone that's not an ally of the marriage.

 

At this point, what is your wife's willingness to do these things? If she's not already willing, your next step is to file for divorce. Sometimes seeing the real consequences of her behavior will serve as a wake-up call. Trying to 'nice her back' is typically counterproductive. If she wakes up and changes her tune, you can always halt the proceedings. If she doesn't, then you're on the way to the divorce you need.

 

Good luck. Keep reading and posting.

[gettingstronger]

Sounds like you guys want to be swingers but went about it the wrong way- look up lifestyle clubs where you guys can indulge these fantasies in a more equal, open manner-

[Cpt]

I don't want to start an EA vs PA debate here, but don't you guys think her PA was way worse than his EA? I would guess an EA+PA > just an EA alone.

[BetrayedH]

I don't want to start an EA vs PA debate here, but don't you guys think her PA was way worse than his EA? I would guess an EA+PA > just an EA alone.

 

Generally, men are more troubled by the physical sex acts with the other man and women are more troubled by the emotional connection to the other woman. Of course there are exceptions. But I find it telling that in this story, his wife was willing to let him have his own sexual encounters with other women (to assuage her own guilt, no doubt) but that she specifically told him that she was concerned about him not having an emotional connection with them. That tells me that in this case, his EA was probably just as damaging to her as her PA is to him.

 

One of the huge hurdles to overcome in a madhatter situation is a tendency to compare whose affair was "worse." One woman here was extraordinarily troubled by her husband's two affairs after he caught her in one. I don't want to debate which was worse in that case either but getting caught up in the comparisons is a major obstacle to reconciling. In order for reconciliation to work, both parties have to do everything that is required of a truly remorseful wayward spouse and both (as betrayed spouses) have to eventually find forgiveness for however they were wronged. If both parties can't do both things, divorce is the only path forward IMHO. Tall order.

[Bryanp]

Wow. She gives some guy a blow job and then comes home to have sex with you. Don't you feel special. My guess is what another poster said and that she has been cheating on you for a while. I think you both need to get tested for STD's. You don't know the whole truth.

[No Limit]

I agree with the others. There are probably plenty of gaps that haven't been filled in your opening post, and probably gaps you have no clue about either.

 

What's clear judging from your wife's behavior is that she resents you. I doubt that she truly believes you only had an emotional affair, and now she's striking back with the same weapons. Her trust to you is as gone as your trust to her.

 

No offense, but I believe this marriage is over.

[fellini]

Your own stories don't match up. You told your wife you didn't want to know about her affairs. But you meant yes. I think there are gaps in this story, a lot of them. It's your version. Hers might be just as wild.

 

So forget about advice on the details (maybe you did, maybe you didn't have sex with that woman you talked about) No one but the two of you know that for sure. I don't think you will have any problem bending your truths here on LS if you are prepared to bend them as well with your W.

 

So what happened, who said what, pfff, no one can sort through this sordid mess. You both have issues, you are both unable to deal with each other except through what seems to be elaborate games.

 

If your marriage is to last, you will probably have to end this charade of deciding if your infidelities are worse or not than hers, (as BetrayedH above has said so eloquently) and recognise that the two of you need to change the way you relate to each other.

 

There are lots of ways to turn on a woman who shows low interest in sex. I don't see you saying you tried anything concrete or worthwhile on that front.

 

Your (and her) past is so messed up, I would suggest you try something different than the standard MC for infidelity (both WS, both BS, both game players) and look instead at Mort Fertel's work on Marriage Fitness. His approach is specifically NOT to "treat" the past, but to build the marriage that needs to be for the future. Doing this, according to those who have worked through his system, sidesteps the trauma therapy approach for a future potential one.

 

Good luck!

[fellini]

WOW! "only had an EA"! If I even LOOK at another woman, my wife gets on my case. If I ever had an EA, she would leave me in a second.

 

And SHE had an EA/PA. They both destroyed me. The EA continues to be the threat that at any moment she could step right back in. The PA has done me in on a personal level. A guy thing.

 

"only an EA" is not something to fight for his favour.

 

I doubt that she truly believes you only had an emotional affair

[Arvin_Solheim]

Well.....I've been in such a situation; but I was very young back then....very very young and my relationship was as serious as it could get for someone at that age, the thing is that you'll probably never trust her again, no matter what she does you're always going to be looking over your shoulder....for me that feeling went away when I ended it and moved on to someone else....You have a family, it should be a more calculated decision for you.

[RightThere]

P.s when a wife says she is okay with you getting it somewhere else, it means she is also getting it somewhere else unless she is genuinely asexual.

 

Actually when a wife says she's OK if her husband has an affair, that means she's already having one so I hope he forgives mine.

[Cpt]

Generally, men are more troubled by the physical sex acts with the other man and women are more troubled by the emotional connection to the other woman. Of course there are exceptions. But I find it telling that in this story, his wife was willing to let him have his own sexual encounters with other women (to assuage her own guilt, no doubt) but that she specifically told him that she was concerned about him not having an emotional connection with them. That tells me that in this case, his EA was probably just as damaging to her as her PA is to him.

 

One of the huge hurdles to overcome in a madhatter situation is a tendency to compare whose affair was "worse." One woman here was extraordinarily troubled by her husband's two affairs after he caught her in one. I don't want to debate which was worse in that case either but getting caught up in the comparisons is a major obstacle to reconciling. In order for reconciliation to work, both parties have to do everything that is required of a truly remorseful wayward spouse and both (as betrayed spouses) have to eventually find forgiveness for however they were wronged. If both parties can't do both things, divorce is the only path forward IMHO. Tall order.

 

Very good observation BH, I was just thinking the same thing while I was typing my question. It is indeed a tricky situation. Even though you're correct about EA hurting the wife more and the PA hurting the OP more, i'm inclined to believe that OP downplayed his EA (in his mind) and the wife could probably see that, then grew resentment torwards OP and had a revenge A.

 

Both affairs were equaly damaging to both parties, but I hope OP you understand that if you are to move forward with this marriage, you need to acknowledge your EA equal to your WW's PA.

 

My advice: end it even if you still love her. But as TaraMaiden boo said, if you're both up for R, then by all means go ahead with her advice x1000000.

[Spark1111]

Jeez man.....you have a secret emotional affair on FB and I get the sense it was NOT properly dealt with, rug swept, not fully communicated about, HEALED, and years later, what?

 

your wife's unexpressed resentment, insecurity, leads her to have an an affair, which turned physical.

 

keep reading here. happens ALL the time.

 

YOU two NEVER dealt with the first dalliance, YOURS. No surprise there.....Not for me. Very, very common, in fact.

 

JUST because you didn't sleep with your old GF, does not MEAN you did not want to, plan to, take hours of secret conversation to do so...unbeknownst to your wife.

 

You just chickened out when push came to shove. Typical of all in EAs, you think you were honorable in that you did not follow through.

 

Big mistake in thinking that and NOT doing the necessary work to figure out WHY you went down that path.

 

You are NOT NOBLER because your conscience or cowardice kicked in at the last minute. YOUR spouse was STILL betrayed, no matter how smugly you felt about not following through with the PA.

 

You two did not do enough work to fix the weaknesses in your marriage; it festered and left her vulnerable to pursuing her own affair to bolster her own damaged self-esteem.

 

men place great weight on the PA....Women are severely damaged by the EA....

 

You both need to fix this now or walk away from each other. As long as you SCOREKEEPER, and believe your affair was lesser than her's....than you do not understand women and/or, this cannot be fixed.

 

You are both to blame from all that was not addressed and dealt with from your EA years ago. Until you address this first.....nothing will heal.

 

I grow weary from people asserting an EA is NOT as big a deal because penis and vagina did not make contact.

 

For many, it is a bigger deal than the sex act. You bonded heart and soul to a person not your spouse.....THAT is a big betrayal....very big.

 

people need to stop minimizing it and own it.

[Syco]

I feel sorry for the daughter.