why do some ow think this...?

[Speakingofwhich]

So..because they have suffered as a BS in the past, that makes it ok for them to inflict that same suffering on someone else? That's so cruel.

 

No, I didn't write that. Those are your words, not mine.

 

I have never and would never justify an A.

[Speakingofwhich]

I have been exposed to a lot of infidelity in my life, including some family members who were OWs.

Thankfully, my husband has not been unfaithful as far as I know.

 

Of course not OWs of them think the same way, but I believe that the vast majority of OWs believe what I outlined in my last post.

 

It is much easier to blame someone else for poor choices.

OWs often blame the WS because that is not as difficult as taking a look in the mirror.

 

These are generalizations based on my observations of extramarital relationships and all the dynamics.

 

Thanks for a gracious and well-thought-out post and also for explaining your perspective, C'estSiBon! I really appreciate your taking the time to respond to my post:)!

[Speakingofwhich]

For many people, myself included, there is an "easier" way to think. You have given someone your all. You have a hope deep down inside that you will end up together. Then let's say DDay comes and your soulmate informs you they cannot leave because of <insert reason here>. Of course it is easier to believe you were star crossed lovers than that when the sht hit the fan it wasn't the kids they chose over you it was the spouse. Because kids are the only thing we usually allow to be first. But, no AP knows that. They don't know the motive behind the WS descision. Even if the WS is honest many AP just won't accept it. Many have to believe what they had was real otherwise... So given the choice on what to believe it doesn't surprise me what people like to believe.

 

Happens all the times in all areas of our lives and why we have the nast little sayings "whatever makes you feel better about yourself" or "whatever helps you sleep at night". It happens with BS who were crappy spouses and refuse to acknowledge that but waste their energy on blaming the demise of a marriage solely on their WS (not all BS and not all marriages were bad pre affair... My wasn't). It happens with people who don't get a job promotion and blame it on favoritsm sexism and so forth even though it really is they weren't really qualified enough. But because in some cases those problems do exsist... So many claim it for their stitch.

 

 

really appreciate your authenticity!

[fellini]

My WW (so she is a mother) had a one year LTR with a co-worker. During this time you are saying that the WS had not concern for "the kids", but what is more accurate is that during her affair she paid less attention to the needs of her child because she fully knew and could see that her BS was taking up the slack in that regard. IN fact unwittingly during the year of her "disappearance" into her LTR (which we believed to be work related because of restructuring of the university system in Europe, and the enormous pressure on professors to do more research, publishing and teaching) my relationship with my daughter became so GREAT that I wanted to spend even more time, taking on all the extracurricular responsiblilities, lunches, etc., and this of course pushed my WS even FURTHER into her new life because she could see how much the two of us were as thick as thieves and she began to resent this.

 

(Of course there is irony in that, she is resenting what she has created)

 

But during the course of her affair at no time did she have to concern herself with her daughter. She came home every night and put in a couple of hours and slept her (her way in the last month of avoiding coming to the matrimonial bed every night - "sorry, I feel asleep sleeping X"

 

BUT. What a different story when DDAY occurred and now she was faced with LOSING NOT ONE BUT the two most important persons in her life. Her shame was so enormous, but more importantly the relationship I now had with my 9 year old was SO solid and so CLEAR that there was no way if we were going to separate, was that 9 year old going to end up with her mother. She knew it and I knew it.

 

So now she has spent a year trying to make sense (for me) of the A, herself, recover her husband's trust, recover her daughters trust and love, and figure out what she needs to do not to cross boundaries. It's a sh--tload of work. And she has to keep up with research, investigation, and classes.

 

 

 

 

The excuse of "the kids" is the hardest one to accept and it amazes me when that excuse is believed as credible. There was little concern for "the kids" when the WS was sneaking off to meet the AP

 

my thoughts exactly,i don't have any ill feeling for ow,at all they were lied to also,but if wh wants to reconcile,it couls be cause out of love for bs,thats all I was trying to say,and no my wh didn't get off easy,hes gotta work for my trust,now its been really hard

[fellini]

My WS chose an co-working Single Divorced XBS for her LTR. Just my luck! after 17 years of a very good marriage, in a family that had EVERYTHING it really wanted, and a fantastic, intelligent, active, successful and beautiful daughter, she launches into an EA-PA/LTR with this completely available and A savvy man.

 

To the point of your post. The morning after DDAY she wrote the NC letter. In that she explained her reasons for ending it and named me and our daughter and the pain and suffering she had been causing us and herself being in that relationship.

 

Just prior to that letter being received, I intercepted an email (she asked me to intercept all his emails) in which he wore it out on his sleeve. How could she abandon him? (He had only asked her for some "hours" together) How could he move from being so NECESSARY to INVISIBLE in one day? (My own question indeed on days before!) Essentially looking for a way to get her to talk and try to pull her back in.

 

In related questions about the AP's attitude towards the BS, she recounted about something that had happened (she asked me to do something that had me unwittingly do a favour for the AP) in which the AP said that this proves her H was a very good person. My wife insists she never said a word to him about our M, probably because she had no complaints that would make sense. And she even asked him: Is my husband going to understand anything about what we are doing if he finds out? To which this very experience xBS said: there is nothing you are going to be able to do or say that is going to allow him to understand or accept any of this. The AP then asked about kids, and when he heard about the 9 year old he winced. His own kids were 15/17 when he discovered his xWS 5 years earlier, and so the impact was not as great.

 

While it might seem that AP's and WS's often tend to resort to caractures and 2D portraits of their BSO's, there are still those who actually behave in a civilized manner with respect to those they intend or are actually damaging. Of course agreeing on the affair is damaging, but they do not have to resort to distortions in order to accept that what they are doing is wrong, harmful, but they have every intention of moving forward or maintaining it anyway.

 

 

 

For many people, myself included, there is an "easier" way to think. You have given someone your all. You have a hope deep down inside that you will end up together. Then let's say DDay comes and your soulmate informs you they cannot leave because of <insert reason here>. Of course it is easier to believe you were star crossed lovers than that when the sht hit the fan it wasn't the kids they chose over you it was the spouse. Because kids are the only thing we usually allow to be first. But, no AP knows that. They don't know the motive behind the WS descision. Even if the WS is honest many AP just won't accept it. Many have to believe what they had was real otherwise... So given the choice on what to believe it doesn't surprise me what people like to believe.

 

Happens all the times in all areas of our lives and why we have the nast little sayings "whatever makes you feel better about yourself" or "whatever helps you sleep at night". It happens with BS who were crappy spouses and refuse to acknowledge that but waste their energy on blaming the demise of a marriage solely on their WS (not all BS and not all marriages were bad pre affair... My wasn't). It happens with people who don't get a job promotion and blame it on favoritsm sexism and so forth even though it really is they weren't really qualified enough. But because in some cases those problems do exsist... So many claim it for their stitch.

[Hope Shimmers]

I will preface this post by saying 2 things: 1) For sake of simplicity I am using the term ‘OW’ here instead of ‘OM’ (therefore WS being male) but the genders could just as well be reversed; and 2) although I consider myself to have healed, the post I am quoting here brought back so much of the pain, and brought back the tears and the actual physical feeling of the heart clenching as I read it. I spent much of last night reliving that pain. I guess it was a good reminder of that experience.

 

I have read a lot of threads on the OW/OM forum where the implication is clear that the wife is in the way of the affair and when the WS goes back to the spouse, it is for all reasons except that the WS realizes he/she screwed up bad and realized they wanted to fix their marriage.

 

Jellybean, I don’t know where all of these supposed threads are. Certainly there are threads that state what the OW is TOLD – which is usually that it is due to kids/house/finances/history/etc. Are you suggesting that the OW is supposed to be an expert on mental telepathy and see through what is being told directly to her, if it is in fact false? Whether or not it may be true, how many times do you think that the WS actually tells the OW that “he screwed up bad and realized wanted to fix his marriage”? What evidence would the OW have to think that was true if she is being told something else by the person who has professed to love her for years, in many cases?

 

I have never seen a OW/OM post that the WS went back because the WS loved his/her spouse and wanted to make it work.

 

Well, then I assume you haven’t read Mickey’s very long thread over on the OW/OM forum. Nor have you apparently seen any of my posts where I have stated that my ex-MM never once denied loving his wife, and he went back to his marriage to make it work.

 

What I don't get is the anger and ire at the BS that is a persistent theme in many OW/OM forum posts. OW/OM are unable to accept that the affair was possibly about sex/affection/adoration/ego, not about this deep soul-mate love they need to believe. It is easier to crucify the BS for making the WS stay -- withholding kids, paying alimony, splitting assets -- all excuses.

 

Where is this ‘anger and ire’ at the BS? There are always exceptions, but for the most part, the OW is stating what was TOLD TO HER by the WS. I just don’t see why that concept is difficult to understand.

 

Many OW are told by the WS that his marriage is bad because of X and yet he has to stay in it because of Y and Z, “but just hold on because at time T the divorce will happen”. And then D-day happens instead, and suddenly this same man is staying in the marriage and “trying to make it work”.

 

What I notice in this forum are the frequent appearances of discussion threads titled “Why do some OW feel like (insert painful emotion here)” and then the ensuing discussion goes on and on about why the OW doesn’t understand that she is only the ‘side dish’, that the WS doesn’t love her, that the WS really wants to make his marriage work, that the WS hates the OW now, that the OW shouldn’t be feeling this pain since she deserved it, and on and on. It just is a constant theme over and over, almost as if there is this need to keep being convinced about it. To me this equates with the word “insecure”. For the most part I don’t see similar discussion threads on the OW/OM forum titled “Why doesn’t the BS understand that the WS doesn’t really love her?” etc.

 

I believe that in many if not most cases, the WS ‘wanders’ not because he doesn’t love his wife, but because he isn’t happy in the marriage for whatever reason and he either is too lazy to try to fix it or doesn’t know how to try to fix it. So it’s easier to try to find this somewhere else. Then, as the A goes on, feelings get stronger (in many cases) between the AP and the OW, and now the WS is between a rock and a hard place as far as how to handle any of it. Thus the lies/half-truths, the stringing along, etc.

 

You can read almost any post on the OW/OM forum about an affair ending and the AP is despondent, non-functioning, crying, etc over the ending of the affair and those who have kids, I wonder "who is taking care of those kids while that person has their breakdown?" Some spend months/years mourning an affair ending. I could understand mourning a death; but an affair ending is not a death no matter how anyone wants to spin it. The WS made a choice - a choice the AP didn't agree with (most likely) but it isn't a death and it is absurd that it is likened to a death!

 

I cannot imagine why anyone would think that it is appropriate to make a judgment about someone else’s pain - to tell them how they “should” and “should not” be feeling and what it should and should not be “compared to”. This just is unbelievably cruel to me. I would never in a million years think to make a post that would even remotely attempt to quantify your pain, Jellybean, or the pain of a BS in general. I have not seen this in other posts from OW either.

 

It is safe to say, in my opinion, that you do not understand what someone in this position goes through. You think it is all about the A ending, and why can’t the OW just get over it? Why should it take months/years?

 

It is NOT primarily about the A ending. In fact I would liken it to a death – a death of the person that she knew herself to be. Because many of these women give their heart and soul and everything they have to the WS, and they believe that this person won’t hurt them. When the person they have poured all this love and trust into then – usually in the time frame of one day – suddenly says “I need to make my marriage work” and leaves them in the dust, they lose faith in everything about themselves that they believed in.

 

I would also point out that I have heard the same thing from BSs – saying that the pain they experience is worse than a death. Is their pain somehow more justifiable or more authentic than anyone else’s? An honest question.

 

In my case, there was in fact a REAL death – that of my daughter (his child) who was born prematurely and died. Can you imagine being completely by yourself – no family, no friends, no one to talk to, no support, and the person you love won’t even speak to you – and have to go through that completely alone?

 

Besides that – my A was not all roses and sunshine. He was insecure and was in many ways threatened by my independence as he was not used to that dynamic in his M. He continuously thought he would lose me and he would get hurt. He thought I would date someone else behind his back. All of that led to his jealousy, and along with that – baseless accusations that I spent SO much time defending.

 

Along the way in the A I began to lose myself because all I was doing was defending myself, apologizing for things I didn’t do, etc. Eventually I became so dependent on him, his reactions, his communications to me, that it was the only way I defined myself. I did not believe I could go on by myself. Not having his approval or happiness made me panic. Literally.

 

At the end (while the A was still going on), I was having chronic insomnia, severe depression to the point of suicide, and severe panic attacks. I was almost completely nonfunctional emotionally. Any sign of my former independent, relatively happy self was gone. I was destroyed. I was at rock bottom with no idea how to get out of the hole and frankly, no desire to get out of the hole. I was panicked to lose him, yet desperate to find a way out. And then he told me he had to go back to his M.

 

I wish I could put into words the devastation of what I went through.

 

It took me many YEARS to become whole again. I was beyond destroyed. Many OW go through varying degrees of this. I will say too that many BS's here on this forum helped me get through it and probably saved my life.

 

As for how I took care of my kids – yes, it was hard, but that probably kept me alive. I’m a single mom raising 3 kids. But I think they turned out okay. They are all happy, well-adjusted, independent people with great senses of humor. The oldest is just finishing his first year at MIT, at the top of his class. The other 2 get straight A’s too. The second just came home 2 days ago with a perfect score on his SATs. I must have somehow managed to raise my kids okay despite it all.

 

I don't agree with your assessment of this thread. It actually helped me again realize that most BS's are very compassionate people who have been hurt in ways that I could not possibly understand.

 

If I could summarize one thing in response to your post, I will say this: Please, PLEASE do not minimize the pain that someone else – OW in this case – may go through. I do not believe most OW minimize YOUR pain.

[Speakingofwhich]

My WW (so she is a mother) had a one year LTR with a co-worker.................................................

So now she has spent a year trying to make sense (for me) of the A, herself, recover her husband's trust, recover her daughters trust and love, and figure out what she needs to do not to cross boundaries. It's a sh--tload of work. And she has to keep up with research, investigation, and classes.

 

fellini, thanks for sharing more of your story. Going to check your profile to see if you have shared it in a thread yet.

[fellini]

I do not think that ANYONE who is serious about understanding the DYNAMICS of infidelity is going to be able to be properly informed with THAT analysis of what is going on.

 

I think it is a huge ERROR in fact and in contextualising what REALLY goes on in a large number of A's:

in saying that the

OW

was only "side dish"

in saying that the

WS

does not love his AP

that he really wants to make things work

 

Surely it goes more like this:

Two people fall in love, marry.

At some point one of them becomes a WS - and when they do, often they believe they have fallen in love all over again (no side dish here) but they do not end their marriages. (this is not the same thing as saying, "trying to make things work" because an A is precisely doing the opposite.

 

(and as an aside, now the WS may or might not be bad mouthing the M, the BS, the life he led, the sex they had, whatever..)

 

Then DDAY hits and the coin is flipped: NOw (some) say the AP was only a side-dish, they neverl loved their AP, and the marriage is worth saving.

 

Im sorry, but only a cynic will take the LAST stage as the TRUE state of affairs of the affairs, and think that the WS always considered their AP a side dish (although some certainly do) and not their marriage (which it is when they are in an affair).

 

So I believe the OW/OM CAN have legitimate pure emotion about being betrayed and deceived by the WS:

 

some are betrayed and deceived because they were lied to.

some are betrayed and deceived because they were not lied to, but now the WS is lying to save his rotten azz in order to save his rotten marriage.

 

That's what I have learned, as a BS, btw.

 

 

What I notice in this forum are the frequent appearances of discussion threads titled “Why do some OW feel like (insert painful emotion here)” and then the ensuing discussion goes on and on about why the OW doesn’t understand that she is only the ‘side dish’, that the WS doesn’t love her, that the WS really wants to make his marriage work, that the WS hates the OW now, that the OW shouldn’t be feeling this pain since she deserved it, and on and on. It just is a constant theme over and over

[fellini]

I think it was Glass that taught me through her chapter on the trauma that affects the AP.

 

Having been through the entire spectrum as a BS - working intimately with my WS who went absolutely NC - especially in terms of NO COMMUNICATION whatsoever - leaving the AP completely isolated and without feedback.

 

Because the nature of their affair forbids his consulting with co-workers he has absolutely NO IDEA what is going on with the woman he tried to remove from my marriage. And based on the communication I alluded to earlier, DDAY hit him harder than a brick wall. My WS and I were able to bounce off each other, check out our emotions, check on each other's pain. The OM has no such lifeline. As a BS I don't hide my satisfaction in thinking he suffered horrendously his mistake in trying to come between our good marriage, but when I imagine as a BS, had it been the other way round, that my WS had made the quick decision to leave the marriage, and leave me alone with the fallout, I know that I would have suffered much worse without having someone intimately involved with the situation helping me through it.

 

I can imagine, even as a BS, that the fallout on the AP (especially in my case because he was a single male) in my case was much worse for him than me, at least INITIALLY. True, in the long run, I have much more work to do, and more suffering, to go through I have no idea how long his journey is going to be getting over what he created with my Ws.

 

 

If I could summarize one thing in response to your post, I will say this: Please, PLEASE do not minimize the pain that someone else – OW in this case – may go through. I do not believe most OW minimize YOUR pain.

[egalew]

Snappy -

 

I agree with what you said. MM who cheat at are cake eaters, selfish. However, sometimes I think it's not always love that keeps them around.

 

I was the OW. Biggest regret. These guys are smooth operators and it's so easy to get sucked into their stories.

 

When DDay came and he got the boot, Ex-AP was so happy. Gonna start another life, do all the things he'd been longing to do. But, when the reality of having to live on this own -- pay actual bills and be a real man -- became a reality, he freaked out. He asked me: "How much does electric cost?" He had no idea. He then later declared: "If I can't make my rent, I have no back up."

 

It was the second marriage for he and the wife. She made good money and he was a compulsive, over spender. Name the gadget, do-dad, electronic device, "toy," he had it. In all their years together, she supported this habit and paid ALL the bills.

 

I also suspected that he rub the affair in her face, by not deleting texts he should have. (He admitted this.) Also, he was on the computer and texting so much I don't know how she couldn't know.

 

Now, in retrospect, I suspect there were other affairs and at the time he got busted may have been juggling more than one.

 

That was 18 months ago. I never reached out or would. Knowing what I do now, I think it's horrible what he did the ex.

[janedoe67]

No question about any of this. I agree. I am simply stating that there seems to be a lot of pointing fingers at the WS when there were a lot of things wrong to begin with in the marriage and an A is just one more of them. As soon as there is infidelity, nothing the BS did that was awful never mattered at all and is rug swept. I'll let you guys get to it, I won't be back to read, I'm really busy, but thanks for answering my question. xx

 

I will go ahead and say that as a FWW I CAN see your point in this. Yes, it DOES seem that the A tends to trump everything else that may or may not have happened pre-A....for some people.

 

However, I really do believe that for anyone who is interested in true reconciliation and who is truly moving on, this eventually is no longer true, and they ARE willing to look at the marriage as a whole. For those who will not or for those who continue to insist that they were the perfect spouse prior to the A, well, there's really not much you can control about that.

[fellini]

For all intents and purposes, infidelity is difficult for anyone to "justify". WS or MAP its all the same.

 

I suppose by "justify" we mean something like: "The story I tell myself about why I am doing something I know I shouldn't. Period.

 

Well, humans being what they are, even IF they asked that question, and I suppose some do, some don't bother trying, the answer is not going to allow them to easily move forward is it. Then there is the problem of a "reasonable" justification: "bad marriage" (really, is it that bad, or does it just look bad now you have this hotty asking you to go to bed?) "I have needs" (did you ask your husband to fulfill those needs?, or are you now asking this hotty to do it, so you no longer require your husband and he not knowing you no longer have specific needs being met, isn't asking either?) "we have been drifting apart for years" (more so now that you have been flirting with this hotty correct? Is it not that you are drifting apart, but rather, your hotty is pulling you away?)

 

On on and on it goes. None of the justifications is going to work, truly.

 

Yet WS's and AP's still end up in bed with their AP. Im with Langley on this question:

They don't ask themselves questions, seriously ask themselves questions, for which they know there is no authentic reasonable answer. They just do it.

Without the Nikes.

 

 

 

 

 

OWs need to justify the affair to themselves' date=' so they believe all the negative lies that the MM feed them. OWs also have to feel like their MM are truly in love with them. In order to do this, they have to make the BWs into evil witches. It is much easier to place blame than to face up to being a side dish.[/quote']

Edited April 12, 2014 by fellini

[Arieswoman]

egalew,

You were spot on with this ;-

 

MM who cheat at are cake eaters, selfish

 

and I can identify with this also,

 

However, sometimes I think it's not always love that keeps them around.

 

and this is my exH to a T.

 

But, when the reality of having to live on this own -- pay actual bills and be a real man -- became a reality, he freaked out.

 

I have no illusions that my exH (prior to DD )was happy to stay in the marriage because he liked the perks, and not out of love for me. I earned more than he did, paid most of the bills, including putting petrol in his car.

 

Even after DD he was reluctant to leave the marital home and couldn't understand why I would no longer sleep with him, do his laundry, cook his meals, or allow him use of my credit card to put fuel in his car ( ! )

 

Once his auxiliary income stream had dried up and there were no more days out, gifts or hotel stays his AP dumped him and went back to her fiance.

 

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

[jellybean89]

 

Where is this ‘anger and ire’ at the BS?

 

I would never in a million years think to make a post that would even remotely attempt to quantify your pain, Jellybean, or the pain of a BS in general. I have not seen this in other posts from OW either.

 

If I could summarize one thing in response to your post, I will say this: Please, PLEASE do not minimize the pain that someone else – OW in this case – may go through. I do not believe most OW minimize YOUR pain.

 

Where is the anger at BS's? Go read pretty much any post in the OW/OM forum. The snarky words used to describe the BS, the comments about their appearance, their judgement of their personality. You won't have to dig far to find those comments.

 

Just as you made a judgement about me -- I am not a BS. You assumed I was because of my opinion. I'm not. I am not in pain over infidelity. It has not been a part of my personal life.

 

I can easily quote you several posts from OW who minimize what a BS is feeling on DDay or in the days after the discovery of an affair (and the majority of the time the affair ending isn't because the OW ended it.)

 

I responded to the original post in this thread. My post wasn't aimed at you or used as an example. You are seemingly to take peoples posts personally. If this thread is hurting you or causing you triggers, for your own health, I hope you stop reading it. From your posts, your affair has been over for years but it seems like you are still hurting. I am sorry if my view hurt you, that was not intentional or my purpose. My post was to express my own thoughts. I wish you well.

[goodyblue]

What a thread. Just more evidence of the huge canyon between BS's and OW.

 

For the OP, I agree with your opening post. I have read a lot of threads on the OW/OM forum where the implication is clear that the wife is in the way of the affair and when the WS goes back to the spouse, it is for all reasons except that the WS realizes he/she screwed up bad and realized they wanted to fix their marriage. I have read posts that excuse the return to the spouse because of:

 

money

house

kids

material things

pets

 

I have never seen a OW/OM post that the WS went back because the WS loved his/her spouse and wanted to make it work.

 

I understand that OW/OM want to know they meant something to the WS. What I don't get is the anger and ire at the BS that is a persistent theme in many OW/OM forum posts. OW/OM are unable to accept that the affair was possibly about sex/affection/adoration/ego, not about this deep soul-mate love they need to believe. It is easier to crucify the BS for making the WS stay -- withholding kids, paying alimony, splitting assets -- all excuses.

 

The excuse of "the kids" is the hardest one to accept and it amazes me when that excuse is believed as credible. There was little concern for "the kids" when the WS was sneaking off to meet the AP; taking 'vacations' with the AP, spending hours texting, calling, emailing. How does that equate to an involved parent? If the WS put half the amount of time spent in an affair into parenting, there would never be a concern about 'losing' the kids if a divorce were to happen. Maybe a divorce/separation would make the WS realize how much they are missing about their kids because they are so focused on the AP?

 

You can read almost any post on the OW/OM forum about an affair ending and the AP is despondent, non-functioning, crying, etc over the ending of the affair and those who have kids, I wonder "who is taking care of those kids while that person has their breakdown?" Some spend months/years mourning an affair ending. I could understand mourning a death; but an affair ending is not a death no matter how anyone wants to spin it. The WS made a choice - a choice the AP didn't agree with (most likely) but it isn't a death and it is absurd that it is likened to a death!

 

This fascinated me. You do realize BS's say this very thing all the time. They liken the marriage ending being like a death. And in a way, isn't it? If a person is in love with another, and it ends, that part of your life is gone. As in a death.

 

I've never thought the wife was in the way of 'our affair' but we've been out of the affair for some years and I don't like it when she tries to get in our business. And I'm ridiculed for that. For protecting my relationship. After all, it's long over, she needs to move on for herself. I know, I know, this makes me a hypocrite. But for me, it's just preserving my relationship from outside influences that are trying to destroy it.

[Hope Shimmers]

I'll not get into who (in general terms) I think is 'snarky' and 'judgmental' in their posts (your words). My point was that OW are often told certain things by the WS, and their repeating what they are told does not equate 'anger and ire' or being snarky or mean.

 

Just as you made a judgement about me -- I am not a BS. You assumed I was because of my opinion. I'm not. I am not in pain over infidelity. It has not been a part of my personal life.

 

I never said you were a BS - I didn't know your history one way or another. However, now that I do, I'm doubly baffled why you would think you could quantify the pain of people involved in infidelity on either side, not having experienced it yourself.

 

I responded to the original post in this thread. My post wasn't aimed at you or used as an example.

 

Please point out where I ever said they were aimed at me personally.

 

A 'discussion' is just that. Many posts on this thread, and others, involve interaction with multiple people, so I have a right to comment on your post.

 

If this thread is hurting you or causing you triggers, for your own health, I hope you stop reading it.

 

On the contrary - I think this thread is great. I think that - if people are open to it - a lot can be learned. I simply pointed out that your quantifying others' pain is, in my opinion, cruel and not appropriate. You can think otherwise if you wish, and you can believe you have the right and ability to express to others what and how they should feel, even though you haven't walked a mile in their shoes. That is your prerogative, whether I agree with it or not. I expressed my opinion and that's all I did.

 

From your posts, your affair has been over for years but it seems like you are still hurting. I am sorry if my view hurt you, that was not intentional or my purpose. My post was to express my own thoughts. I wish you well.

 

I don't think anyone really gets over something like that totally.

 

Well wishes to you too.

[starchild699]

I will preface this post by saying 2 things: 1) For sake of simplicity I am using the term ‘OW’ here instead of ‘OM’ (therefore WS being male) but the genders could just as well be reversed; and 2) although I consider myself to have healed, the post I am quoting here brought back so much of the pain, and brought back the tears and the actual physical feeling of the heart clenching as I read it. I spent much of last night reliving that pain. I guess it was a good reminder of that experience.

 

 

 

Jellybean, I don’t know where all of these supposed threads are. Certainly there are threads that state what the OW is TOLD – which is usually that it is due to kids/house/finances/history/etc. Are you suggesting that the OW is supposed to be an expert on mental telepathy and see through what is being told directly to her, if it is in fact false? Whether or not it may be true, how many times do you think that the WS actually tells the OW that “he screwed up bad and realized wanted to fix his marriage”? What evidence would the OW have to think that was true if she is being told something else by the person who has professed to love her for years, in many cases?

 

 

 

Well, then I assume you haven’t read Mickey’s very long thread over on the OW/OM forum. Nor have you apparently seen any of my posts where I have stated that my ex-MM never once denied loving his wife, and he went back to his marriage to make it work.

 

 

 

Where is this ‘anger and ire’ at the BS? There are always exceptions, but for the most part, the OW is stating what was TOLD TO HER by the WS. I just don’t see why that concept is difficult to understand.

 

Many OW are told by the WS that his marriage is bad because of X and yet he has to stay in it because of Y and Z, “but just hold on because at time T the divorce will happen”. And then D-day happens instead, and suddenly this same man is staying in the marriage and “trying to make it work”.

 

What I notice in this forum are the frequent appearances of discussion threads titled “Why do some OW feel like (insert painful emotion here)” and then the ensuing discussion goes on and on about why the OW doesn’t understand that she is only the ‘side dish’, that the WS doesn’t love her, that the WS really wants to make his marriage work, that the WS hates the OW now, that the OW shouldn’t be feeling this pain since she deserved it, and on and on. It just is a constant theme over and over, almost as if there is this need to keep being convinced about it. To me this equates with the word “insecure”. For the most part I don’t see similar discussion threads on the OW/OM forum titled “Why doesn’t the BS understand that the WS doesn’t really love her?” etc.

 

I believe that in many if not most cases, the WS ‘wanders’ not because he doesn’t love his wife, but because he isn’t happy in the marriage for whatever reason and he either is too lazy to try to fix it or doesn’t know how to try to fix it. So it’s easier to try to find this somewhere else. Then, as the A goes on, feelings get stronger (in many cases) between the AP and the OW, and now the WS is between a rock and a hard place as far as how to handle any of it. Thus the lies/half-truths, the stringing along, etc.

 

 

 

I cannot imagine why anyone would think that it is appropriate to make a judgment about someone else’s pain - to tell them how they “should” and “should not” be feeling and what it should and should not be “compared to”. This just is unbelievably cruel to me. I would never in a million years think to make a post that would even remotely attempt to quantify your pain, Jellybean, or the pain of a BS in general. I have not seen this in other posts from OW either.

 

It is safe to say, in my opinion, that you do not understand what someone in this position goes through. You think it is all about the A ending, and why can’t the OW just get over it? Why should it take months/years?

 

It is NOT primarily about the A ending. In fact I would liken it to a death – a death of the person that she knew herself to be. Because many of these women give their heart and soul and everything they have to the WS, and they believe that this person won’t hurt them. When the person they have poured all this love and trust into then – usually in the time frame of one day – suddenly says “I need to make my marriage work” and leaves them in the dust, they lose faith in everything about themselves that they believed in.

 

I would also point out that I have heard the same thing from BSs – saying that the pain they experience is worse than a death. Is their pain somehow more justifiable or more authentic than anyone else’s? An honest question.

 

In my case, there was in fact a REAL death – that of my daughter (his child) who was born prematurely and died. Can you imagine being completely by yourself – no family, no friends, no one to talk to, no support, and the person you love won’t even speak to you – and have to go through that completely alone?

 

Besides that – my A was not all roses and sunshine. He was insecure and was in many ways threatened by my independence as he was not used to that dynamic in his M. He continuously thought he would lose me and he would get hurt. He thought I would date someone else behind his back. All of that led to his jealousy, and along with that – baseless accusations that I spent SO much time defending.

 

Along the way in the A I began to lose myself because all I was doing was defending myself, apologizing for things I didn’t do, etc. Eventually I became so dependent on him, his reactions, his communications to me, that it was the only way I defined myself. I did not believe I could go on by myself. Not having his approval or happiness made me panic. Literally.

 

At the end (while the A was still going on), I was having chronic insomnia, severe depression to the point of suicide, and severe panic attacks. I was almost completely nonfunctional emotionally. Any sign of my former independent, relatively happy self was gone. I was destroyed. I was at rock bottom with no idea how to get out of the hole and frankly, no desire to get out of the hole. I was panicked to lose him, yet desperate to find a way out. And then he told me he had to go back to his M.

 

I wish I could put into words the devastation of what I went through.

 

It took me many YEARS to become whole again. I was beyond destroyed. Many OW go through varying degrees of this. I will say too that many BS's here on this forum helped me get through it and probably saved my life.

 

As for how I took care of my kids – yes, it was hard, but that probably kept me alive. I’m a single mom raising 3 kids. But I think they turned out okay. They are all happy, well-adjusted, independent people with great senses of humor. The oldest is just finishing his first year at MIT, at the top of his class. The other 2 get straight A’s too. The second just came home 2 days ago with a perfect score on his SATs. I must have somehow managed to raise my kids okay despite it all.

 

I don't agree with your assessment of this thread. It actually helped me again realize that most BS's are very compassionate people who have been hurt in ways that I could not possibly understand.

 

If I could summarize one thing in response to your post, I will say this: Please, PLEASE do not minimize the pain that someone else – OW in this case – may go through. I do not believe most OW minimize YOUR pain.

 

 

Hope, as a fOW who can identify, all I can say is WOW. Once again you've eloquently articulated what so many of us have lived. Next August it will be 2 years post dday for me. Like you, Jellybeans post triggered me in a bad way. Thank you for your reply. I identified with SO MUCH. I too experienced suicidal ideation during my darkest hours. On the flip side I continued successfully single-parenting a teenager (fully aware of the A, dday) through the aftermath. It wasn't without bumps, like any life experience, but she's emerged a strong beautiful intelligent and hard-working young woman, is set to graduate this June, and I couldn't be prouder.

 

Hugs,

starchild

Edited April 12, 2014 by starchild699

[Waverly]

I will never understand this need to categorize people so thoroughly. These sweeping generalizations about how BSs must feel or how the OW has to justify things, etc., etc. If there's anything I've learned from the mess I created, it's that people are complicated, that feelings aren't black and white, and that we are all capable of poor decisions.

 

I've been on the receiving end of some really wonderful and compassionate advice here from both BS and OW. I've also had my entire character called into question, told I need to give up my children, and that I will never succeed in changing my life for the better. I am deeply appreciative of the former and try not to let the latter get to me too much.

 

My point, and I'm sure some people will think it's a copout, is just that we are all complex, all have unique situations, and all deserve equal compassion, no matter what mistakes we've made.

[sidney2718]

My ex-MM's W had refused to have any intimate relations with him for years prior to our meeting, and continues to do so. (She directly told me this - that this was her prerogative and he needed to just deal with it). That's after she is waited on hand and foot by him so that she doesn't have to work, drive, or lift a finger to do anything except shop.

 

Does that constitute the breaking of vows? I think so. However, he chose to remain in the marriage because she can't take care of herself and for religious reasons (I know - the hypocrisy). I can tell you one thing, though - it is not fun to continuously have to think about how she 'won' him (if that was the desired outcome) by being that way, when I gave him absolutely everything and 'lost'. It hurts big-time.

 

My personal feeling is that the marriage is broken to the point that it no longer exists. Though the issue is complex, I do not think that anyone has to be condemned to giving up sex for life because their spouse doesn't want sex.

 

My guess, knowing as little about this particular instance as I do, is that I'd not fault the guy for going outside of his marriage when the only other choice is to abandon a wife who can't take care of herself.

 

As you note above, fidelity isn't the only vow taken.

[Speakingofwhich]

Where is the anger at BS's? Go read pretty much any post in the OW/OM forum. The snarky words used to describe the BS, the comments about their appearance, their judgement of their personality. You won't have to dig far to find those comments.I truly don't see them (snarky words describing BS)on most of the threads, jellybean. The anger I see on OW thread seems often to come from a very few BSs as there are many BSs that are very gracious and helpful on OW/OM thread.

 

Just as you made a judgement about me -- I am not a BS. You assumed I was because of my opinion. I'm not. I am not in pain over infidelity. It has not been a part of my personal life. Kindly, jellybean, and I wish I could say this to you face to face very gently with a kind expression on my face because I don't feel anger or malice toward you: I assumed you were a BS because your posts seem to direct anger at OW to me. Since you post on both the infidelity and OW/OM threads I assumed that you were a BS and were in pain from being cheated on. The question is, are you in some kind of discomfort emotionally? Is it possible there is a different source of pain in your life that has caused you justifiable anger that may come out as you are dealing with unrelated things?

 

I can easily quote you several posts from OW who minimize what a BS is feeling on DDay or in the days after the discovery of an affair (and the majority of the time the affair ending isn't because the OW ended it.)

 

I responded to the original post in this thread. My post wasn't aimed at you or used as an example. You are seemingly to take peoples posts personally.I just don't see that about Hope Shimmer's posts. Is it possible that's a subjective opinion that others may not share with you? Her posts to me seem to be emotionally neutral and very stable. If this thread is hurting you or causing you triggers, for your own health, I hope you stop reading it.I hope she continues reading and posting as, imho, she seems to be in a good place in her life and is contributing information and posts to the threads that are helpful for me and I would imagine helpful for many others. There is one particular thread she has been posting on that has helped the author tremendously and she is quite verbose in her deep gratitude for Hope Shimmer's constant helping hand to her. From your posts, your affair has been over for years but it seems like you are still hurting. I am sorry if my view hurt you, that was not intentional or my purpose. My post was to express my own thoughts. I wish you well.

 

I can't comment on Hope Shimmer's pain. I haven't noticed her to be hurting at this point but that's not to say she isn't. I just don't see it in her posts. I do seem to recall she has posted about the pain she underwent in years past as she recovered from her R.

 

I have also been through a tremendous amount of pain from more than one relationship. I think most of us have as it seems to be part of life!

 

Jelly Bean, I have replied to your posts before and not submitted them because I have some differing views than you do and it seems that you may not be as open to differing views as some may be, idk. It is my desire to have a good posting relationship with you and possibly it may be you who ends up giving an opinion or advice that is a great blessing to me! Please know that this post is sent to you with good will.

[Speakingofwhich]

My personal feeling is that the marriage is broken to the point that it no longer exists. Though the issue is complex, I do not think that anyone has to be condemned to giving up sex for life because their spouse doesn't want sex.

 

My guess, knowing as little about this particular instance as I do, is that I'd not fault the guy for going outside of his marriage when the only other choice is to abandon a wife who can't take care of herself.

 

As you note above, fidelity isn't the only vow taken.

 

I almost "liked" this post. It's really good. Except I don't want him to go out of the M for sex but rather to D, marry the woman who can love him completely, while working out a way to continue to be of help to the ex W who needs it. Seems complicated but also seems it would be worth it.

[Fluttershy]

I will tell you something that happened to me last year. Besides my H's affair I have not had much up close experience in infidelity. And usually I have been friends with the betrayed not the betrayer when things come to light. Single OW in my smaller remote area are unknown to me. A friend's H was involved eith a single OW but I never met her. And have never heard IRl people talking about it. So let's get to let summer when I was at function. I met this very sweet young woman who was there with her boyfriend. I didn't know either of them. Her and I hit it off and we were sitting visiting. I asked her how long they had been together. She told me six months. Then she told me plain as day she was actually the mistress. I think I must have paled. I am not usually very vocal IRL but I blurted out. "my husband had an affair." She looked ill and itwas really akward for a moment. I told her then that if she wanted a future with her MM she needed to give him an ultimatium. And I told her if it was just for the sex to maybe think about stopping so she wouldn't be apart of him hurting his wife. He never got mad and just nodded. I think seeing a real life BS who she connected with hit her hard. For some the WS is a non entity or someone who because of how the WS paints her is dislikable. But here I was a living breathing human who had been hurt by my husband's selfish behaviour.

 

I don't think all Ow are the same. I don't think this OW was a souless monster. But I do think for many the BS is simply a non entity. So if a WS goes back to the BS they only have their experience to go one and so it isn't the BS that is being returned to it is the whole package deal.

[goodyblue]

Sex another lie. What if mm has a stroke , heart attack, or some other disease that takes away his ability for sexual intercourse. Maybe he isn't doing it for her. Did he try oral with her, vibraters, fingers? Look at it from her side.

 

Someone having a medical issue is a lot different from a person who denies their significant other sex because they don't want it or like it or whatever. As partners, it is your job to please one another. If you deny your partner such a fundamental way to engage and show love, affection, you're at fault.

[jellybean89]

 

Jelly Bean, I have replied to your posts before and not submitted them because I have some differing views than you do and it seems that you may not be as open to differing views as some may be, idk. It is my desire to have a good posting relationship with you and possibly it may be you who ends up giving an opinion or advice that is a great blessing to me! Please know that this post is sent to you with good will.

 

Speaking, not to T/J this thread -- just wanted to say I have NO anger at all! I am probably in one of the happiest times of my life. Just received a huge award at work, relationship is great, have amazing friends...life is in a really good place for me.

 

I post in various forums here. I am intrigued by some of the topics and to be fair, shocked at how some people think/act (same way I feel at the airport too!). To each their own. We all have views and opinions and if we didn't, there would be no need for these types of online communities.

 

You don't know me enough to decide if I would be open to different views..that's you making a judgement because I am not into being in an affair. I believe in love and respecting my partner. I dont believe someone just "oops" into an affair. I find it sad that so many women/men lower their standards (and for some, this morales) and engage in affairs. To each their own tho. When asked for opinions or thoughts, I replied. No more, no less.

[goodyblue]

The point is, cheating men do not stay were nothing exist. Look at his actions. He is a proven liar.

 

My story is a little different from the others. I am FOW who is now with her FMM. We're very happy together. And there are a plethora of reasons for his being unsatisfied in the R. But a biggie was being denied sex. Affection. Intimacy.

 

Our affair was short, and he did leave, but it still began as an affair. He was the loneliest person I'd ever met.