why do some ow think this...?

[goodyblue]

The fact that people consider vows and being a liar (or being part of the lie) irrelevant explains why there are so many A's

 

Character is never irrelevant.

 

I've always wondered about this. Even if an affair is wrong, even if there was no affair...

 

My guys wife broke her vows. She did not love, honor, or cherish her then husband. Do those vows not matter? Why is the vow of fidelity so much more important? Why do they not have equal value? She broke the vows long before he did.

 

In fact, maybe he didn't break the vows at all. They were already long broken.

[Sub]

I've always wondered about this. Even if an affair is wrong, even if there was no affair...

 

My guys wife broke her vows. She did not love, honor, or cherish her then husband. Do those vows not matter? Why is the vow of fidelity so much more important? Why do they not have equal value? She broke the vows long before he did.

 

In fact, maybe he didn't break the vows at all. They were already long broken.

 

This is not a defense of the W, but I think the difference is this: loving, honoring and cherishing are pretty intangible, and somewhat subjective, things. We all measure love and honor in different ways, to varying degrees. I could feel loved by my W. Someone else may have different needs and not feel the same love I do. The act of infidelity is a pretty cut-and-dry thing. You either cheat/have an A or you don't.

[sidney2718]

I may be misunderstanding the intent of the original poster of the analogy, but I don't think so. If I am, my apologies and I stand corrected.

 

To me, the point is being missed. The point is not whether there are little decisions that lead up to the big decision. That's all stuff that happens as part of the process. Regardless of this, eventually there has to be that overall choice. I understood the point to be that there are simply two dichotomous, categorical overall outcomes (either he leaves his marriage, or he doesn't). Because this seems so simplistic, there is a tendency for both OW and BS to assign a simplistic rationale behind the decision (eg, he loved her more than me). When in reality, there are many complex factors that play into the outcome that may affect the decision and will impact the subsequent fallout for Al.

 

I'd argue differently. There may be lots of little decisions that take place and then the recognition that a boundary has already been passed. You seem to recognize this toward the end of the last paragraph above. Or perhaps I misunderstand.

 

But my view does explain why so many Als, when asked why they delved so deeply into art, can only say "I don't know! I never made a conscious decision to give up my career for art, but that's what ended up happening!"

[Arieswoman]

HS,

Then why are you here? Honest question.

 

I am here having a discussion, or so I thought.

[Hope Shimmers]

Al gave up both the practice of law and his painting career, underwent transgender surgery, completely changed his identity, then flew off to somewhere in the Caribbean where he sat on the beach drinking mohitos for the remainder of his days. The End.

[Hope Shimmers]

HS,

 

 

I am here having a discussion, or so I thought.

 

That's not what I meant, but fair enough.

[Speakingofwhich]

The fact that people consider vows and being a liar (or being part of the lie) irrelevant explains why there are so many A's

 

Character is never irrelevant.

 

 

I don't believe the first part of this to be true but do agree with part two of the above. I believe there are many people who become participants in affairs who consider vows to be relevant and consider being truthful to be very important.

 

I do agree with you that character is never irrelevant though.

[Arieswoman]

HS,

Al gave up both the practice of law and his painting career, underwent transgender surgery, completely changed his identity, then flew off to somewhere in the Caribbean where he sat on the beach drinking mohitos for the remainder of his days. The End.

 

PMSL

[Speakingofwhich]

Al gave up both the practice of law and his painting career, underwent transgender surgery, completely changed his identity, then flew off to somewhere in the Caribbean where he sat on the beach drinking mohitos for the remainder of his days. The End.

 

LOLOLOL!!! (Is it OK to laugh at Al since he's a fictitious character, though guess I'm laughing at your post, not at Al specifically!)

 

Oh, how I needed that laugh! I've been on the phone with the government! (Not the whole thing ((entire government)), though, lol!)

[sidney2718]

Our character should always guide our decision making process and being able to honor our vows is part of that. I fully understand analogies so don't take the easy way out when challenged in your thinking by claiming some mythical intelligence higher ground.

 

I think Hope was making a somewhat different point. Let me try this my way. At what point do the actions of a couple married to others first constitute infidelity? When sex is consumated? When clothing is removed? When they arrive at a safe place for sex? When they meet at a bar to talk? When one of them comforted the other at work? When one overheard the other having a painful conversation on the phone?

 

Pick whatever point you want, but you do so KNOWING how it was going to end. The people involved did not know how it was going to end. Read what I wrote the other way around.

 

I think that Hope's point was that a lot of little decisions took place which cascaded into something that is clearly infidelity.

 

Nobody is trying to condone infidelity. All some of us are doing is trying to point out that it is easy to assign black and white meanings to things, but that is not necessarily how they are perceived by the folks involved.

[veritas lux mea]

People think and precieve things usually based on what they believe. Or their own life experience. I went into it on another post how our POV is relevant of how we interpret things. For instance I see a lot of people on this site and off complain that because of a certain admin/mods lifestyle the modding is biased. I have seen ow complain about BS creeping over to their forum and BS conplain for vice versa. Not all but enough. I see OW who want to fight generalizations and plug their ears against any thought that may actually make their actions gross like they truly are. I see BS either trash those (ws or ap) who involve and are obly here to remind them they are a worthless. The extremes are how people work. Specially on a board where you can get out what you mat not say.

 

Just because you didn't have a certain experience doesn't mean someone else didn't. Doesn't mean the fog isn't real and it doesn't mean the BS all have little halos on their heads.

 

But, affairs are wrong. And if they weren't they wouldn't be hidden and so hurtful. They wouldn't require such min gymnastics to defend. I think people can love more than one person at a time. It is actually pretty crazy to think there aren't people who are in love with more than one person.

 

 

The healthy mature and better ending way is to end the marriage before starting another relationship. Cheating is for cakeeaters who either want it all or cowards who have every excuse in the book to justify their mariatal status and side piece.

[goodyblue]

This is not a defense of the W, but I think the difference is this: loving, honoring and cherishing are pretty intangible, and somewhat subjective, things. We all measure love and honor in different ways, to varying degrees. I could feel loved by my W. Someone else may have different needs and not feel the same love I do. The act of infidelity is a pretty cut-and-dry thing. You either cheat/have an A or you don't.

 

So, honor is subjective? Love, maybe. Cherish, maybe. But as a married person, you SHOULD know what your partner considers love. Should you not? The parameters of a relationship are set by the couple involved. If you had an agreement, even unspoken, regarding what these things meant for the two of you, then years later, changing the game, you've broken the agreement. The vow.

 

Suddenly, one of you, or both, don't feel so loved, so cherished. So honored. The vows are broken.

[spookysonata]

So, honor is subjective? Love, maybe. Cherish, maybe. But as a married person, you SHOULD know what your partner considers love. Should you not? The parameters of a relationship are set by the couple involved. If you had an agreement, even unspoken, regarding what these things meant for the two of you, then years later, changing the game, you've broken the agreement. The vow.

 

Suddenly, one of you, or both, don't feel so loved, so cherished. So honored. The vows are broken.

 

His wife didn't treat him right so his cheating is ok because the vows were already broken by her?

That's probably one of the most convoluted excuses for cheating I've ever come across.

[Arieswoman]

Sidney2718,

 

Let me try this my way. At what point do the actions of a couple married to others first constitute infidelity?

Hmmm,

A good question.

 

In my case, apparently, my husband ( a senior manager) came across a much younger female employee crying at work and took her into his office to see what the problem was. She said she had problems with her fiance.

 

So far so good. He removed her from the work area to avoid disruption to other employees and tried to ascertain the problem. He found out it was a personal issue not a work-related issue.

 

He gave her advice.

 

Wrong. He overstepped his position as a manager. He should have referred her to the human resources/personnel dept for their assessment. Boundary No1 crossed but no harm done to primary relationship so far.

 

When he showed her out of his office he said that if she ever wanted to talk again he would be free for her. If she wanted to go for a drink after work anytime and talk he would try and help her.

 

Wrong. Now he is trying to change the relationship from a work-related one to a social one.

Boundary No2 crossed but no harm done yet.

 

Employee approaches him at work a week later and says "how about that drink?" He agrees and they go for a drink.

Wrong. He could've pulled back now but he didn't.

They go for a drink and get on well.Boundary No3 crossed but situation still retrieveable.He asks her for another meeting and she agrees.

Wrong. Now he's pushing it forward. Needs to deceive me about where he's been (in the wine bar with pals from work - half truth.)

Another boundary crashes down. But it's still retrievable. He can still stop and no harm will be done.

 

*They meet up again.

Now he tells her that "they have a connection". They are no longer "work colleagues" they are prospective lovers.They look forward to meeting each other again. The endorphins/endomorphins are starting to flow. They know it's wrong but they don't want to stop.

 

Then *, IMO is when he started actually cheating. He is spending time with OW that should have been spent with me. He is spending our money buying her drinks.He is planning more meetings, they are getting involved. Now they are on a slippery slope that only goes one way.

 

I am sure there are a plethora of variations on this.

[gettingstronger]

My guys wife broke her vows. She did not love, honor, or cherish her then husband. Do those vows not matter? Why is the vow of fidelity so much more important? Why do they not have equal value? She broke the vows long before he did.

 

 

Two wrongs always make a right?

[Sub]

So, honor is subjective? Love, maybe. Cherish, maybe. But as a married person, you SHOULD know what your partner considers love. Should you not? The parameters of a relationship are set by the couple involved. If you had an agreement, even unspoken, regarding what these things meant for the two of you, then years later, changing the game, you've broken the agreement. The vow.

 

Suddenly, one of you, or both, don't feel so loved, so cherished. So honored. The vows are broken.

 

That's a very slipper slope, though. By this rationale, anyone who has an A can justify it by saying they didn't feel cherished, or loved enough.

 

Yes, if you're married, you should each know what the other needs to feel loved and honored. But this sudden change in the game isn't always the doing of the one on the giving end. A persons needs can change. They can want more, need more, etc. It works both ways.

 

If you truly feel your spouse has broken the vows to love, honor and cherish, there are healthier and more honest options than having an A.

[Arieswoman]

GS,

She did not love, honor, or cherish her then husband.

 

So why did he stay with her if he was so unloved, dishonoured and uncherished?

Why not just leave if he was so unhappy?

 

Do those vows not matter?

 

Yes, which is why he should have brought this perceived failure of hers to her attention, and discussed it.

 

She broke the vows long before he did.

 

So again, why did he stay in the marriage? Why did he not seek counselling, try to put things right?

 

All this says a lot more about his coping mechanism and ability to tackle relationship issues, than it does about her perceived lack of attention to his needs.

[FoolishOW]

No, I get what was said, I simply don't feel the need to defend myself to someone saying I see women as not being equal or it being gender based.

 

 

Come on DKT, you're making this WAY too complicated and WAY too personal. I took your words verbatim. You've surrounded yourself with friends who cheat, while somehow claiming that it has NO reflection on your choice of friends. Not 1 wayward friend, not 2, but TONS! Your words, dude... Own it! These cheating friends, AND YOU, laugh, while "your boys" puff their chests and carry on about the ways in which they've "gotten over" on woman THEY'VE decided to cheat on their wives WITH.

 

 

SPIN it however you want...

[Hope Shimmers]

HS,

 

 

I am here having a discussion, or so I thought.

 

Arieswoman,

 

After thinking about my question to you "why are you here" I realize it probably came off as me implying you don't belong here. I apologize profusely because that wasn't what I meant at all. I just didn't think it through very well before posting, to realize how it might sound.

 

What I really meant was to ask what you feel you are getting out of these discussions, given your experience - a genuine question out of curiosity. Even so, that is none of my business and I apologize for any potential misunderstanding. Sometimes I engage my mouth before my brain...

[sidney2718]

That's a very slipper slope, though. By this rationale, anyone who has an A can justify it by saying they didn't feel cherished, or loved enough.

 

Yes, if you're married, you should each know what the other needs to feel loved and honored. But this sudden change in the game isn't always the doing of the one on the giving end. A persons needs can change. They can want more, need more, etc. It works both ways.

 

If you truly feel your spouse has broken the vows to love, honor and cherish, there are healthier and more honest options than having an A.

 

It isn't a question of justifying an affair. To get to an affair, boundaries are crossed. Many boundaries. Which one is the cause of the affair? You sometimes can't pinpoint one single cause. That is not justifying the affair.

 

You know, it really doesn't matter. An affair happened and has to be dealt with.

 

And by the way, not feeling cherished is also a violation of the vows often taken. Don't forget that.

[Hope Shimmers]

No, I get what was said, I simply don't feel the need to defend myself to someone saying I see women as not being equal or it being gender based.

 

Come on DKT, you're making this WAY too complicated and WAY too personal. I took your words verbatim. You've surrounded yourself with friends who cheat, while somehow claiming that it has NO reflection on your choice of friends. Not 1 wayward friend, not 2, but TONS! Your words, dude... Own it! These cheating friends, AND YOU, laugh, while "your boys" puff their chests and carry on about the ways in which they've "gotten over" on woman THEY'VE decided to cheat on their wives WITH.

 

SPIN it however you want...

 

In some cases it's not worth wasting your breath my friend

[sidney2718]

Sidney2718,

 

Hmmm,

A good question.

 

In my case, apparently, my husband ( a senior manager) came across a much younger female employee crying at work and took her into his office to see what the problem was. She said she had problems with her fiance.

 

So far so good. He removed her from the work area to avoid disruption to other employees and tried to ascertain the problem. He found out it was a personal issue not a work-related issue.

 

He gave her advice.

 

Wrong. He overstepped his position as a manager. He should have referred her to the human resources/personnel dept for their assessment. Boundary No1 crossed but no harm done to primary relationship so far.

 

When he showed her out of his office he said that if she ever wanted to talk again he would be free for her. If she wanted to go for a drink after work anytime and talk he would try and help her.

 

Wrong. Now he is trying to change the relationship from a work-related one to a social one.

Boundary No2 crossed but no harm done yet.

 

Employee approaches him at work a week later and says "how about that drink?" He agrees and they go for a drink.

Wrong. He could've pulled back now but he didn't.

They go for a drink and get on well.Boundary No3 crossed but situation still retrieveable.He asks her for another meeting and she agrees.

Wrong. Now he's pushing it forward. Needs to deceive me about where he's been (in the wine bar with pals from work - half truth.)

Another boundary crashes down. But it's still retrievable. He can still stop and no harm will be done.

 

*They meet up again.

Now he tells her that "they have a connection". They are no longer "work colleagues" they are prospective lovers.They look forward to meeting each other again. The endorphins/endomorphins are starting to flow. They know it's wrong but they don't want to stop.

 

Then *, IMO is when he started actually cheating. He is spending time with OW that should have been spent with me. He is spending our money buying her drinks.He is planning more meetings, they are getting involved. Now they are on a slippery slope that only goes one way.

 

I am sure there are a plethora of variations on this.

 

I'm sure that there are a plethora of variations. But let me note that the first step was in fact kind. Many of us have dealt with HR on personal problems. I think I'd rather fight dragons. HR's responsibility is to protect the corporation, not its employees.

 

And I could argue that any one of the steps you outline above was the decisive one. But I won't. I actually think that most of us agree although we differ in details.

 

There are folks who look at the result and then decide on that basis that the marriage has been trashed. Sadly, the marriage betrayers don't get to look at it result first.

[Hope Shimmers]

It isn't a question of justifying an affair. To get to an affair, boundaries are crossed. Many boundaries. Which one is the cause of the affair? You sometimes can't pinpoint one single cause. That is not justifying the affair.

 

You know, it really doesn't matter. An affair happened and has to be dealt with.

 

And by the way, not feeling cherished is also a violation of the vows often taken. Don't forget that.

 

My ex-MM's W had refused to have any intimate relations with him for years prior to our meeting, and continues to do so. (She directly told me this - that this was her prerogative and he needed to just deal with it). That's after she is waited on hand and foot by him so that she doesn't have to work, drive, or lift a finger to do anything except shop.

 

Does that constitute the breaking of vows? I think so. However, he chose to remain in the marriage because she can't take care of herself and for religious reasons (I know - the hypocrisy). I can tell you one thing, though - it is not fun to continuously have to think about how she 'won' him (if that was the desired outcome) by being that way, when I gave him absolutely everything and 'lost'. It hurts big-time.

[Hope Shimmers]

I will be utterly honest here. When I first arrived on LS I just wanted to share my pain, my outrage, my sense of the utter injustice of what had happened. Did I want advice ? Not really. I wanted to howl in pain and have others make it better. I wanted others to validate what I was experiencing. I read the OW forum with horror and anger. How could 'these women' believe this, do this, say this?

 

But LS has helped so much. I have understood that pain, betrayal, anger, resentment occurs on every side. Neither side has a monopoly. Just try to be kind and hold back the cruel words. It's made it easier but also harder, because it is easier to hate in simple terms than understand in complex terms.

 

Really great post.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with sharing pain, outrage, injustice and not wanting advice (which I why it bothers me when people give unsolicited advice when people just need to be heard - although that is their right). I spent years here being an absolute dead weight on everyone, including many BSs who graciously helped me through what I was going through and probably literally saved my life.

[veritas lux mea]

My ex-MM's W had refused to have any intimate relations with him for years prior to our meeting, and continues to do so. (She directly told me this - that this was her prerogative and he needed to just deal with it). That's after she is waited on hand and foot by him so that she doesn't have to work, drive, or lift a finger to do anything except shop.

 

Does that constitute the breaking of vows? I think so. However, he chose to remain in the marriage because she can't take care of herself and for religious reasons (I know - the hypocrisy). I can tell you one thing, though - it is not fun to continuously have to think about how she 'won' him (if that was the desired outcome) by being that way, when I gave him absolutely everything and 'lost'. It hurts big-time.

 

He enables his wife. And enablers as we know are just as much apart of the problem. He enabled his wife to behave that way but not standing up for what was right. Instead he let himself become involved with a third party dragging them in to his own dysfunction that he chose daily to live in. And in some cases AP enable the WS to remain by buying their bs excuses for staying. It has baffled me that people can't see the least likely people to end a bad marriage are the ones who are having an A. They have their medication/drug and they have their fake life with their spouse and sometimes children. Why leave?