why do some ow think this...?

April 10, 2014

I have read numerous threads by some ow(I know not all think this)but a lot do,that if the wh,leaves them to work on the marriage,they think somehow either the bs,has them held hostage some how,either financially,or the kids,the house etc etc.
well in my situation we lost our home during the economy crash,we rent now,we haave no debt,my car is paid for so is his,so is the motorcycle,and our kids are older,and on there own,i can provide for myself financially,it would be hard,but iam an independent woman,he didn't need me,and I definitely didn't need him,but when dday came and the sh*t hit the fan,he begged for reconciliation,because he loves me,and never stopped,even when he fu**ed up royaly,just a rant I guess

To me, things are black and white. Whatever my MM had chosen to do, he would have been accountable for that decision, no one else.

IMHO a man who cannot look at a situation, consider the options, weigh the consequences and come up with a decision is not a worthy partner for me. Being married is no excuse for not being able to do this. Making decisions are part of life and they are generally not easy.

Had I thought my MM stayed with his wife because "she was making him" would have made him incredibly unattractive to me. Where's that barf icon?

April 10, 2014

HS,

Hmmmm.

I think it is an attempt to explain the unexplainable.

I think that there is the assumption that there were some thought processes involved when the WS or AP entered the affair.

If every WH sat down and thought to himself -" If I stick my ****in this OW it could result in the end of my life as I know it. I could be consumed with guilt and have to face my wife everyday knowing I betrayed her. I could ending up feeling real bad."
Would he still go ahead and do it?
Probably not.

People involved in affairs are deluding themselves, either consciously or unconsciously that it is an OK thing to do. They are in an "affair fog", high on endomorphins that keep them hooked into it. They are in a fantasy universe where nothing matters apart from the object of their affection.

It is only when divorce papers come popping through the letterbox and their clothes are thrown out onto the street that the WS comes back to reality and realises the real enormity and consequences of their actions.

I do not know of any BS, including myself, who got a sensible answer from their WS about why they did what they did. Surely if some thought had been involved then they could give the answer?

So, it's your assumption that everyone in an affair is doing so because they are doped up on a chemical high and that they aren't making a conscious decision to betray their spouse every day and aren't fully aware of what the consequences of their actions are? That they only come back to "reality" on D Day? They were in some mythical fog for years and years? Or could it be that people are fully aware of what they are doing, they've made a conscious decision to take the risk, and they are simply trying to save their a** on D Day? I wonder why BSs can't get a sensible answer from their WS about what they did. Could it be that the whole "I don't know what I was doing", "I was in a chemical induced fog" story will be better received than "I fell in love with someone else, I made a conscious decision to betray you, and I didn't think you'd ever find out"?

April 10, 2014

HopeShimmers....not suprising to me at all that he doesn't see the discrepancy - reading some of his posts on other parts of this forum (especially the dating one) can give a great inside on that.

No, I get what was said, I simply don't feel the need to defend myself to someone saying I see women as not being equal or it being gender based.

As far as my comments on the dating side, I'm guessing you speaking of the way I handled my dating life. I am and always have been a relationship kind of guy. I'm not ashamed to admitt I am in love with a woman who cheated on me for two years. So because of that I'm really emotionally unavailable. I kept a distance from the women I've dated. I searched for reason to not be interested in women I was attracted to. One really has nothing to do with the other.

I think some of the OW here have labeled me the enemy. I'm ok with that.

April 10, 2014

HS,

Hmmmm.

I think it is an attempt to explain the unexplainable.

I think that there is the assumption that there were some thought processes involved when the WS or AP entered the affair.

If every WH sat down and thought to himself -" If I stick my ****in this OW it could result in the end of my life as I know it. I could be consumed with guilt and have to face my wife everyday knowing I betrayed her. I could ending up feeling real bad."
Would he still go ahead and do it?
Probably not.

People involved in affairs are deluding themselves, either consciously or unconsciously that it is an OK thing to do. They are in an "affair fog", high on endomorphins that keep them hooked into it. They are in a fantasy universe where nothing matters apart from the object of their affection.

It is only when divorce papers come popping through the letterbox and their clothes are thrown out onto the street that the WS comes back to reality and realises the real enormity and consequences of their actions.

I do not know of any BS, including myself, who got a sensible answer from their WS about why they did what they did. Surely if some thought had been involved then they could give the answer?

I know that every situation and every person is different. But I have to say that the above would not fly in my situation. My H is the CEO of a very large public company. This "fog stuff" would never fly in his situation, he does not get to be in a "fantasy universe". He is far too smart for that and I would definitely hold him to a higher standard.

If he cheats on me, so be it, but there will be no fog.. he will need to own it.

April 10, 2014

That analogy was a skewed romantic view. Putting the BS/marriage in the pigeonhole of a dull, tedious, uninspiring life choice against the colourful, free, expressive, world renown, being their true self affair relationship life choice.

Not fair or accurate at all.

Most relationships start off just as "pretty" as the analogy ascribed to the affair side of it.

Life happens. It is what we do when life evolves within and around us. Choosing a course that places others at risk is simply not healthy. For anyone in the vicinity of the person in conflict.

I do not understand the purpose it serves in the driving need some AP have to explain or prettify the choice a WS makes in regard to staying in their marriage. It doesn't change a damn thing. It often hinders them from moving on or from living their life with their head and heart open to their own future.

There are some threads/posters that are painful to read...their singular focus on what they did/did not mean....will WS contact me...what does it mean/not mean if they don't...etc..etc... You can almost hear the water splashing around them as they are frantically grasping for a life preserver. Too often...the advice gives little comfort...yes WS loved/loves you...WS will regret leaving you. As the WS is not there...there is no tangible proof of those proclamations. The poster has no choice/power in the thoughts/actions of the WS...so...it becomes a fools errand trying to figure it out...and the spinning and grasping continues. It is difficult to convince someone in turmoil...that they do indeed have the same ability as others to tap into their inner strength and pull themselves up and out onto dry land. That the saying "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is more than just putting in time. It is using all your available resources to not just survive everyday...but to thrive.

April 10, 2014

To me, things are black and white. Whatever my MM had chosen to do, he would have been accountable for that decision, no one else.

IMHO a man who cannot look at a situation, consider the options, weigh the consequences and come up with a decision is not a worthy partner for me. Being married is no excuse for not being able to do this. Making decisions are part of life and they are generally not easy.

Had I thought my MM stayed with his wife because "she was making him" would have made him incredibly unattractive to me. Where's that barf icon?

I agree with this. It's hard to see, but things really are black and white. It's not that complex. MM waffle from staying to leaving because it's easier than making a clear decision. If you truly think about it, this behavior is stemmed from the fear of the unknown. Fear paralyzes and prevents us from making healthy choices. It prevents us from living a full life. This is something that's discussed a lot in my MC sessions.

How many times do you hear, I can't leave because my kids will hate me, I don't want to lose everything I've worked for, I don't want to hurt my spouse, etc. It's ALL fear! Seriously though, how does anyone know for sure what's going to happen if you choose to leave? Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of the same things.

We only have one life to live and I'm personally sick of being miserable. I need to make a decision and stick to it 100%. Waffling from one choice to another, is exhausting. It does nothing but cause more pain and confusion. It's not complicated, it's all about not wanting to a make a decision. Period.

IMO, MM stays because he WANTS to or he stays because he's too chicken sh*t to take a stand. Who wants a spouse who only stays out of obligation?

April 10, 2014

Learning to move on,

So, it's your assumption that everyone in an affair is doing so because they are doped up on a chemical high and that they aren't making a conscious decision to betray their spouse every day and aren't fully aware of what the consequences of their actions are?

I believe they are operating and making decisions based on their own skewed perception of reality.

Here it is explained more succinctly;-

Coping With Infidelity: Understanding The "Wayward Fog" - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates

That they only come back to "reality" on D Day?

Usually. Or when the AP dumps them.

Could it be that the whole "I don't know what I was doing", "I was in a chemical induced fog" story will be better received than "I fell in love with someone else, I made a conscious decision to betray you, and I didn't think you'd ever find out"?

That is possible.

However, as no WS (that I know or have heard about) will admit to this then there is no way of testing it out.

April 10, 2014

Learning to move on,

I believe they are operating and making decisions based on their own skewed perception of reality.

Here it is explained more succinctly;-

Coping With Infidelity: Understanding The "Wayward Fog" - Marriage AdvocatesMarriage Advocates

Usually. Or when the AP dumps them.

That is possible.

However, as no WS (that I know or have heard about) will admit to this then there is no way of testing it out.

Reality is relative. Whatever you are feeling, THAT is YOUR REALITY. It's not skewed. I know, I know, so easy to give the WS an out by saying "Gee, he was in a 'fog', he REALLY didn't mean to go out and fall in love with someone else"... wrong.

HIS reality was that he was having WHATEVER feelings he was having.

So, whatever. This entire thread, and really, most others are just BS's screaming that they are right and the OW screaming that they are right. Why have a discussion at all? Do you honestly think that I, as a FOW would ever be able to convince you that my guy truly loves me? That we honestly could NOT control ourselves? That we are freakishly happy? Nope. And by the same token, trying to convince any OW that they were not truly loved by their MM is ridiculous. WE know what we felt, what we lived, what happened to us, on both sides of the fence, and ne'er the twixt shall meet.

Enjoy your day.

April 10, 2014

Goodyblue,

Do you honestly think that I, as a FOW would ever be able to convince you that my guy truly loves me?

As no-one on this thread knows your full story then it is difficult to make a judgement. But if you say he loves you then that's fine.

That we honestly could NOT control ourselves?

Nope. I don't buy that. I think it's more a case of not wanting to or choosing not to.

If someone honestly and truly cannot control their own behaviour then they need Sectioning under the Mental Health Act UK (or USA equivalent) for their own protection and the protection of others.

As you don't write posts like a fruitloop I can only assume your actions were conscious choice.

That we are freakishly happy?

Maybe you are maybe you aren't. Happiness is relative concept.

I really don't know why you are getting all bent out of shape over this. If you happy with what you have, why care what others think ??

April 10, 2014

Lol. I'm not bent out of shape. I'm simply saying that it's a ridiculous topic. I read it and just laugh harder and harder at the justifications on both side of the argument. Then I just wonder what we're doing even bothering with discussion when we will never sway the other parties.

I don't care what others think of my situation in particular. I was simply using it to make a point. That even when I say that, people say "No, you aren't". And 9/10 its a BS saying so. I can't possibly be happy. WE can't be happy. What's that saying? You can't build happiness on the back of someone else... or something like that. Lol. Silliness.

Edited April 10, 2014 by goodyblue

April 10, 2014

GB,

I'm simply saying that it's a ridiculous topic.

Then why are you engaging?

Then I just wonder what we're doing even bothering with discussion when we will never sway the other parties.

That is making the assumption that anyone should want to sway other parties, or convert them to their line of thinking.

As I see it, all these discussion boards are for the exchange of ideas and gathering information.

April 10, 2014

This topic will never reach a middle ground.

There are advantages to be gained in discussing a topic that transcend reaching a middle ground. My perspective on this I'll share at the end of this post and am interested in others perspectives. I don't mean this as a thread jack but just to encourage others to continue on in this discussion and not quit as I'm learning and benefiting a lot as others may be, also.

I'm not saying the following is your thought process, DKT3, or throwing out the idea at any particular someone on this board: In general, in life there are people who need to have concepts and rules that they live by accepted by others they engage with in order to continue to be comfortable with both the concepts they live by and also the people they're talking with.

Such people tend to 1.fight to the death to force their views on others (gotta be their way or the highway) 2. and/or take offense sometimes to the point of becoming antagonistic to someone who disagrees with them and has the nerve to voice it!

When those people enter discussions they can become emotionally disturbed (a little or a lot) when they can't corral others (control) into their way of thinking. They become threatened. Often such people begin to take swipes in any way they can (sarcasm, passive aggressive, etc.)as a way of dealing with their fears.

This discussion with this particular group of posters is fascinating to me, 1. for the subject it entails 2.for the interpersonal interactions that are occurring and3. for the opportunity to learn 3a how others think and 3b facts.

The degree in which each participant benefits from the discussion may depend upon at least a few things I can think of. 1. the ability to accept that one doesn't know everything and that one's life can be enhanced by learning from others who may have 1a a different opinion they are not going to change by another's post 1b factual information one is not aware of 1c a different perspective of viewing one's opinions. 2. the ability to not feel competitive about the discussion 3. the ability to maintain goodwill toward someone who expresses opposing views. Probably you can think of other things to add to the list!

And, there are people who can have a discussion, present their views which may or may not differ drastically from the positions others present and also LISTEN open mindedly and respectfully to the opinions of others, giving them consideration and not judging them by an emotional reaction they may have in their minds.

I sure hope this doesn't lead to a t/j! I know it isn't well organized, well developed or well edited but I need to get back to work! So much could be written in response to all I've just posted, by me and by others! (This is so poorly constructed I should never hit the submit button but I'm in a risk taking mood so voila! Submit!)

April 10, 2014

I don't care what others think of my situation in particular. I was simply using it to make a point. That even when I say that, people say "No, you aren't". And 9/10 its a BS saying so. I can't possibly be happy. WE can't be happy. What's that saying? You can't build happiness on the back of someone else... or something like that. Lol. Silliness.

I think if you took the time, you'd find there are a lot of people saying how it depends on the situation, and some saying that both BS and OW/OM tend to hear and see what they want to hear and see. Which IMO makes your feelings on the subject a good case study. It appears you hear and see what you want to hear and see, in this case from BS's.

April 10, 2014

GB,

Then why are you engaging?

That is making the assumption that anyone should want to sway other parties, or convert them to their line of thinking.

As I see it, all these discussion boards are for the exchange of ideas and gathering information.

Okay, I'll rephrase. I feel it is pointless to exchange when nobody is exchanging anything. We're all just spouting what we think and not getting anything from the other side.

P.S. I find it interesting that you said I was all worked up, or however you said it, when I was simply stating my opinion. It seems to me the only one worked up is you.

April 10, 2014

I think if you took the time, you'd find there are a lot of people saying how it depends on the situation, and some saying that both BS and OW/OM tend to hear and see what they want to hear and see. Which IMO makes your feelings on the subject a good case study. It appears you hear and see what you want to hear and see, in this case from BS's.

Lol. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't make it any less true.

April 10, 2014

You lost me. But hey, good talk.

April 10, 2014

HS,

Hmmmm.

I think it is an attempt to explain the unexplainable.

I think that there is the assumption that there were some thought processes involved when the WS or AP entered the affair.

If every WH sat down and thought to himself -" If I stick my ****in this OW it could result in the end of my life as I know it. I could be consumed with guilt and have to face my wife everyday knowing I betrayed her. I could ending up feeling real bad."
Would he still go ahead and do it?
Probably not.

People involved in affairs are deluding themselves, either consciously or unconsciously that it is an OK thing to do. They are in an "affair fog", high on endomorphins that keep them hooked into it. They are in a fantasy universe where nothing matters apart from the object of their affection.

It is only when divorce papers come popping through the letterbox and their clothes are thrown out onto the street that the WS comes back to reality and realises the real enormity and consequences of their actions.

I do not know of any BS, including myself, who got a sensible answer from their WS about why they did what they did. Surely if some thought had been involved then they could give the answer?

First, I'm one who thinks this 'affair fog' concept is a bunch of hooey, so I'm assuming here that you meant 'endorphins' and not 'endomorphins' (as I've never heard of the latter) but correct me if I'm mistaken.

The definition of 'endorphins': Endorphins ("endogenous morphine") are endogenous opioid peptides that function as inhibitory neurotransmitters. They are produced by the pituitary gland and the hypothalamus in vertebrates during exercise, excitement, pain, spicy food consumption, love, and sexual activity.

So you are saying that for what... eight years!... ex-MM walked around high on endorphins? It's not even physically possible for someone to be high on endorphins for eight solid years (although he is Latino, so maybe it was all that spicy food...) It sure as heck wasn't sexual activity, living 800 miles apart!

It seems I hear this 'fog' thing more in conjunction with the WS than with the OW/OM. Aren't they in a 'fog' too, then? So I have been walking around in a fog for all of those 8 years, too? Given my profession, it's lucky I didn't kill someone.

I can tell you that I was on no endorphin high-fog during that time.

I think the 'fog' is just a convenient way to excuse behavior in others that they don't want to attribute to something real.

This entire thread, and really, most others are just BS's screaming that they are right and the OW screaming that they are right. Why have a discussion at all? Do you honestly think that I, as a FOW would ever be able to convince you that my guy truly loves me? That we honestly could NOT control ourselves? That we are freakishly happy? Nope. And by the same token, trying to convince any OW that they were not truly loved by their MM is ridiculous. WE know what we felt, what we lived, what happened to us, on both sides of the fence, and ne'er the twixt shall meet.

I agree. This thread and many others are just efforts for BS and OW to convince each and the other that they 'mattered'. And no one knows that but the individual themselves. Thus my hatred of generalizations.

For that matter, other than as an academic exercise, I don't think these men are worth all this debate. The BS can have them.

April 10, 2014

Yep, although that's completely irrelevant as to what decision he makes. Which is what the discussion is about.

The fact that people consider vows and being a liar (or being part of the lie) irrelevant explains why there are so many A's

Character is never irrelevant.

April 10, 2014

The fact that people consider vows and being a liar (or being part of the lie) irrelevant explains why there are so many A's

Character is never irrelevant.

That's not at all what I said. You missed my point, but okay. I'm done with this pointless discussion, because it's not an exchange of ideas where anyone benefits from others' thoughts and opinions.

April 10, 2014

I used to be a very black and white thinker. Life has brought me to the point of living a life I never dreamt for myself. For the better and for the worse. Through it all I have realized that while, yes, some things are black and white. Humans rarely stay the course in all situations. We err, we seek redemption, we balance, we fight back, we laugh, we die. It's easy and sometimes called for to pass judgement. It's also unbelievably hypocritical. Yet, we do it anyway. Because we would never and could never. How dare he/she. Allow me to look down my nose at this peasant of morals and virtue. This is true for not only infidelity but any fall from grace.

April 10, 2014

Hope Shimmers,

In UK we call them Endomorphins

Endomorphin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

maybe is the US they have a different name?

If you think the concept of an "affair fog" is a bunch of hooey then that is your choice. No need to discuss it any further then?

This thread and many others are just efforts for BS and OW to convince each and the other that they 'mattered'. And no one knows that but the individual themselves.

Again that is your opinion.

I have never tried to convince anyone that I "mattered" to my WH. As soon as DD came I knew that I didn't matter to him and that's why I filed papers 2 days later.

April 10, 2014

You lost me. But hey, good talk.

I apologize. That remark was meant to go elsewhere.

April 10, 2014

Hope Shimmers,
In UK we call them Endomorphins

Endomorphin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

maybe is the US they have a different name?

Apparently, because I've never heard of it, and a google search of 'endorphin' and 'affair fog' is the one that gets hits on my end of things.

If you think the concept of an "affair fog" is a bunch of hooey then that is your choice. No need to discuss it any further then?

Not with people who refuse to hear. And of course it's my opinion. That's a given. Everything posted here is opinion.

I have never tried to convince anyone that I "mattered" to my WH. As soon as DD came I knew that I didn't matter to him and that's why I filed papers 2 days later.

Then why are you here? Honest question.

I am here to offer support to those who went through what I did. Not to judge them, but to offer support.

April 10, 2014

SolG,
Your post #81 was neat, but I'd like to point out another scenario, which, IMO is more common.

Al's boss finds out about his secret studio and tells him to pack it up or he'll be fired from the law firm. Al says he isn't going to stop painting, because he loves it, but does nothing and carries on at the law firm as if nothing was wrong.
Al's boss gets fed up with his indecision, fires Al and tells him to clear out his desk.
Al refuses, so the boss gets security involved and throws Al's items out onto the street and takes the office keys off him.
Al has nowhere else to go so he shuffles around to his studio, telling everyone on the way who will listen what a POS his boss is. He carries on painting and wondering why life is so unfair.

The End.

Perhaps I missed it, but there is still another interesting scenario. The boss tells Al to quit painting. Al closes his studio and paints in his bedroom instead. The boss sees Al full-time working at law and is happy. Al is happy. The end.

I think this happens too.

April 10, 2014

I will be utterly honest here. When I first arrived on LS I just wanted to share my pain, my outrage, my sense of the utter injustice of what had happened. Did I want advice ? Not really. I wanted to howl in pain and have others make it better. I wanted others to validate what I was experiencing. I read the OW forum with horror and anger. How could 'these women' believe this, do this, say this?

But LS has helped so much. I have understood that pain, betrayal, anger, resentment occurs on every side. Neither side has a monopoly. Just try to be kind and hold back the cruel words. It's made it easier but also harder, because it is easier to hate in simple terms than understand in complex terms.

Sign In

why do some ow think this...?

Recommended Posts

WasOtherWoman

LearningToMoveOn

DKT3

WasOtherWoman

AlwaysGrowing

violet1

Arieswoman

goodyblue

Arieswoman

goodyblue

Arieswoman

Speakingofwhich

Sub

goodyblue

goodyblue

Sub

Hope Shimmers

janedoe67

Hope Shimmers

Journee

Arieswoman

goodyblue

Hope Shimmers

sidney2718

waterwoman

What's New

My Activity Streams

More...