ThaWholigan Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 Personally, I would like to get married and I actively choose not to play the field right now (even though I could if I wanted to). So I am different than the poster that you are responding to. However, I support him in his journey. Sometimes, I really don't understand women. You created guys like that with your movement and then you get mad at him for acting accordingly. Makes no sense. Hive mind??
ltjg45 Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 Hive mind?? Actually, I believe that most women is the ones creating these kinds of "player" men by their own actions and the remaining few that isn't part of the majority is disgusted by the results. It is no different with me and my disdain for the majority of the males and females I see constantly each day. I simply can't see myself wanting to even talk to them or, in the case of women, wanting to even date or have sex with them. I simply was born in the wrong time period and is paying dearly for it. I just don't see me getting in a relationship I actually want to be in unless I go across the water, even though that will hit me rather hard financially to do so.
Eclypse Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 OK, then you have struggled. Your post made you come across as somebody who has never struggled and doesn't understand why people settle. I completely agree with you here. Like you, I've only gone after women that I was attracted to, and thought they have a good personality. Though there is a point where somebody can struggle so much, that they don't care if they are attracted to the woman at all, and just want a woman. I was at that point a long time ago. Back when I was 22, I "dated" an obese girl for two weeks. She was the first girl I ever kissed. I was extremely desperate for any female contact. We didn't have sex, though I had a couple of chances to make it happen. Once things were over with her, I decided never to settle again. 10 years later, I got my second kiss, and my first girlfriend. I haven't struggled for several years. But that's because I wasn't in the dating game. I was in a LTR and then broke up to be with someone else. Both girls I thought were really beautiful. I wouldn't have gone out with them if I didn't. Each time you get rejected or break up you learn lessons from it. This helps you with future romantic conquests. I'm much better at talking to girls now than I use to be. I understand you've had much more severe issues dating than most people here. I commend you for not settling! Last year you got what you finally wanted all these years. It'll happen again.
Author OldNavy Posted April 10, 2014 Author Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Wow so many replies that I haven't finish reading them all. Thank for taking your time sharing your views. Now Verhrzn: I've actually gone single for a while now and deliberately because I just couldn't find good qualities in several women. I don't really expect her to be a perfect model but I was just referring my not so long list as the ideal woman many of us dream about. I'm sure you have your dream guy from fairy tales too but don't really mean to say that's all you want. 2 of my ex gfs were average in look and I did fell in love with them at some point. I loved the first that took my virginity too and still remembered everything from what perfume she was put on, her clothes, her body, how she said ''It's ok'' (surprisingly, she liked it that I was a virgin) and the way she moved. When you're in a relationship and fall in love, you always find something special in them anyways. I guess I'm just stressed out that I'm now single, having urges for being a father and finding a quality woman I'm attracted to. Still haven't found one. I don't want to be single forever. I want to be a father and form a family in the near future. Edited April 10, 2014 by OldNavy
Author OldNavy Posted April 10, 2014 Author Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) So you don't even meet your own standards for a partner, and yet you say that women have it easier because they don't have to settle? OP, I don't know about others, but I think it's fine to search for your Adriana Lima. Good luck and godspeed. But more than the looks issue, it's your judgment of women in general that's going to be the problem when it comes to finding love - you, my friend, not only don't meet your own #1, but your #2 as well. You seem to have major baggage, from where I'm sitting. You're basically asking women to settle while complaining they don't have to - I mean, how do you even resolve that in your own head? Ach, the poor-me thing. So yawn. Seriously, don't play the victim, and really don't play the "I-deserve" card. It's unappealing and you may miss out on some truly great human beings who are flawed but wonderful. Let go of the listicle. You're shooting yourself in the foot and inviting people to do exactly what I just did: Turn it around on you. Lists are a nonstarter. Standards are fine, of course - necessary, even. But lists? Blech. In a way, I just think some people (yes certain women too) don't want to be reminded of their own physical lacks in great looks or other flaws but are realistic in the end and know they're going to get a person with flaws too. There is no control when you fall in love too and then it's when you see them the one even with flaws. Same thing can be said for a short 5'2 ft woman that only would want me, a 6'1 man. Why? I think she also wouldn't want to be reminded of her short height when someone's that's short too and realize she won't have tall kids so she might seek someone way taller than her. However, if you actually find your dream girl/guy, it's like telling to yourself ''Wow they chose me'' and makes me very excited. You end up looking up to them too and doing more work than ever. But seriously, I still think that it's the women with longer, unrealistic list. That's only my dream list I'm fully aware I'll never get. My more realistic qualities I'm seeking in a potential wife material: 1) Cute and with a smile on her face 2) Can cook too 3) Is sweet and caring 4) Is smart 5) Family oriented I mean if this is how real I'm getting, this isn't too much. Edited April 10, 2014 by OldNavy
Author OldNavy Posted April 10, 2014 Author Posted April 10, 2014 Yes it does make you a racist, you can add that to being a sexist. Keep dreaming about Adriana Lima. She's probably also dreaming about you .Dreaming is very different from specific seeking only that.
Author OldNavy Posted April 10, 2014 Author Posted April 10, 2014 I admit this is frustration from seeing how other guys use to already get a gf (not even a hooker; most actually wanted a relationship too and only few that either didn't care for a gf or couldn't find one sought for ONS and meaningless flings) early in during HS while I was that kid with glasses lacking in height, confidence and enough skill at the time. It affected me all the way till my early 20's. Even another guy with an acne problem in my school would find a gf too and kept telling me in was so easy. I agree this is my baggage from time to time. I've gotten over it but at the time it was frustrating getting nothing or friendzoned.
serial muse Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 However, if you actually find your dream girl/guy, it's like telling to yourself ''Wow they chose me'' and makes me very excited. You end up looking up to them too and doing more work than ever. But seriously, I still think that it's the women with longer, unrealistic list. That's only my dream list I'm fully aware I'll never get. My more realistic qualities I'm seeking in a potential wife material: 1) Cute and with a smile on her face 2) Can cook too 3) Is sweet and caring 4) Is smart 5) Family oriented I mean if this is how real I'm getting, this isn't too much. Sure, that's a reasonable list, if you must have a list (which I maintain is a bad idea). But it's not at all the same list you had earlier, is it? You're moving the goal posts here. Above, in the post that got everyone mad at you, you talked about "settling for less" than your dream girl and being disappointed about it, which naturally makes everyone sorry for any potential girl who meets the above qualities, since she's doomed to be "settled for". You really need to own your baggage before you can go around saying you want a woman with none of her own. That's a double standard, and reeks of entitlement. Nobody wants to be settled for. Including you (otherwise you wouldn't express frustration with other peoples' lists). tl;dr: Don't be a hypocrite. It's not attractive. To get an idea of what my dream girl (potential wife) would be like: 1) As beautiful as Adriana or similar 2) Has no baggage (or hardly any) nor wild partying past; has morals 3) Is a great cook (I'm a good cook myself too but would be a bonus if she actually liked doing that) 4) Great job or career-minded 5) Awesome personality and funny Sadly I haven't encountered any woman that had those qualities. She either had some except 1-3 or all except 2. 3
Author OldNavy Posted April 10, 2014 Author Posted April 10, 2014 The point is I've been experiencing Jay1983's frustration too of getting women you're either not too attracted to, bad qualities and past partying around, already have school-aged kids or boring personality. I want to find one that rocks my world and makes me feel in love again. Sometimes it feels like chasing and talking to strangers, starting all over again and that can be frustrating too. Some are already taken. It's an effort to me there are certain guys that have it easier and can possible get any girl, even their dream girl. Serial muse, you're right though but I'm really stressed-out.
RedRobin Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 The point is I've been experiencing Jay1983's frustration too of getting women you're either not too attracted to, bad qualities and past partying around, already have school-aged kids or boring personality. I want to find one that rocks my world and makes me feel in love again. Sometimes it feels like chasing and talking to strangers, starting all over again and that can be frustrating too. Some are already taken. It's an effort to me there are certain guys that have it easier and can possible get any girl, even their dream girl. Serial muse, you're right though but I'm really stressed-out. OK... I just finished a thread of my own stressing out about a lot of the same things... I think you need to realize that a lot of the same women you claim to want are having the exact same frustrations. ... and as I say that... know that I went on a very nice date last night with a guy who is my height (5'6"), who is three years older than me... who is not my physical ideal but takes good care of himself... who is divorced (like me)... But somehow took the time to buy a nice bouquet of flowers for his date with me (I found out at the end of the date)... and we talked about cars and motorcycles (he has won awards at car shows and used to ride motorcycles)... and it was the first time in a very long time I didn't feel like a freak for liking those things... and still being able to be a girl and be thrilled to have someone buy me flowers. So I'm holding onto that for today... We have another date for this weekend. Go cart races! He says they go up to 50 miles an hr (with a gleam in his eye)... 4
xxoo Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) I want to find one that rocks my world and makes me feel in love again. That's all the list you need. That can come in all sorts of packages. But sure, it takes time to find that. Not just anyone will do. Be aware, if you get stuck expecting a certain package to provide that feeling, you might overlook someone who would be really wonderful for you.... Edited April 10, 2014 by xxoo 5
verhrzn Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 I've actually gone single for a while now and deliberately because I just couldn't find good qualities in several women. I don't really expect her to be a perfect model but I was just referring my not so long list as the ideal woman many of us dream about. I'm sure you have your dream guy from fairy tales too but don't really mean to say that's all you want. 2 of my ex gfs were average in look and I did fell in love with them at some point. I loved the first that took my virginity too and still remembered everything from what perfume she was put on, her clothes, her body, how she said ''It's ok'' (surprisingly, she liked it that I was a virgin) and the way she moved. When you're in a relationship and fall in love, you always find something special in them anyways. I guess I'm just stressed out that I'm now single, having urges for being a father and finding a quality woman I'm attracted to. Still haven't found one. I don't want to be single forever. I want to be a father and form a family in the near future. The thing is, I kind of don't have an "ideal" list. Or, more specifically, I recognize the ideal list is a fantasy, and I do not measure guys I meet in real life against it. Now don't get me wrong-I have things I want in a partner, and I have deal breakers. But I am very mindful about why I want the things I want, and what's reasonable, and what's best kept in fantasy. I do not let my fantasy ideal interfere with my real life, but more importantly... I do not consider being with someone who meets a lot of reasonable requirements, but isn't the ideal, as settling. Let's say my ideal is a guy who looks like Daniel Radcliffe, is an accomplished writer and university professor, has never had a relationship before but is still mature and worldly and knowledgeable, who isn't rich-rich but has enough that we could reasonably buy a house in the country, and loves the exact same nerdy stuff as I do but doesn't make me feel inferior by not knowing more than I do. My ideal actually isn't that unrealistic. There could very well be a guy who fits a lot of those. But I recognize that even if I were to find such a guy, the fantasy would never live up to the ideal. The ideal is the ideal because it's in my head, because he isn't real. When I ventured out into the dating world, I didn't measure guys against this ideal guy. I measured them against just a list of must-haves/dealbreakers: -Does he want kids? -Is he monogamous? -Does he like dogs? -Is he a good guy? (Respectful, kind) -Do I connect with him? The last one is kind of vague, but it's vague on purpose. You need to allow room for people to be people... my current boyfriend is geeky, but isn't exactly geeky in the same way I am (or that I would like in my unrealistic fantasy.) But it works. We connect. He meets every one of my 5 "must haves," despite the fact that he matches my "ideal fantasy" not at all. I look at your list, and I see a fantasy. And I see you measuring real women against a fantasy. Wanting kids and wanting someone you're attracted to are perfectly fine requirements/deal breakers.... but you take them into "fantasy" realm when you say that she must have a "good moral" character based on her past (which she cannot change), and be "this" hot. For me, I'm also reacting against the fact that you want these very specific things in a partner, without ever asking if you provide them yourself. I mean, would this amazing woman have to settle for you? Are you smart with an awesome job and fantastic personality? Are you without baggage? It seems like you view finding someone like yourself would be "settling" from your perspective. That's a pretty toxic and unattractive mindset to have. 1
PJKino Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 (edited) Jesus tap-dancing Christ, will people please stop using that book as some sort of blue print for what women want? Ya wanna know why that book was popular? 2 reasons. 1) It gave women a way to read sex/porn scenes without anyone else being able to tell. Imagine how popular porn would be if you no longer could get it online, and could only buy it in stores, where the covers quite clearly displayed that it was PORN. That's romance novels for women. It's very difficult to find non-niche romance online, and buying romance novels involves a lot of embarrassment for the woman. And you can never read it in public! 50 Shades is a sex book that doesn't directly advertise as a sex book. A lot of its sales were from online e-Book purchases, where women could discreetly read it without anyone being the wiser. It sold because women want to read sex scenes without being publicly shamed for it. 2) The main male character of Christian is actually a direct rip off of the main male character in Twilight. 50 Shades started out as a Twilight fanfic. So trying to hold up the two of them up as examples is just sort of silly since they are clones of each other. But the truth is, almost none of the traits you listed matter. Ya wanna know the one trait that, in my opinion, resonated with women to the point where you could toss all the rest out the window? That the main male character needed saving. There's a strong current in a lot of media aimed at women based on the idea that a woman's love can redeem or save a man. It's kind of a power fantasy for the woman... the idea that a guy loves her so much he will change his very nature to be with her. Edward resisted being a vampire and chugging Bella's delicious freescia-smelling blood because he was just that into her. Christian gets over his obsessive need for sexual dominance because Ana's vaginal has magic love healing powers. I constantly see men complain about how women want bad boys. Guys, you do not get it. Women (speaking very generally) don't want bad boys. They want guys who change for them through the power of love. They want a bad boy who stops being bad because he falls for her. They want a player who becomes monogamous because he's so into her. They want a shy nerdy guy who becomes the Confident Man about Town because she's just so amazing he has to impress her. It's a fantasy-a fantasy based around the idea that a woman's power comes from a guy's willingness to subject his own desires to hers. Is it more unrealistic than the typical man's fantasy about desiring a Victoria Secret model who is also somehow a chef/nun? I'm gonna go with.... nope. And the reason why is because a woman's fantasies are all about the behavior of the guy. He doesn't need to change his looks, his hobbies, his job, nothing, not really.... he just needs to subjugate himself in some way. Become romantic where he wasn't before. Become tender where before he was gruff. Behave in some way that shows he's placing a particular desire of hers over a particular individualistic trait of his. Compare that to the man's fantasy. There is no way, no physical way, I am ever going to be a Victoria Secret model. I will never be able to fit a man's fantasy. I can also never go back in time and correct a single sexual encounter. It doesn't matter if 28 years out of my life, I was a upstanding moral citizen... I sleep with a guy once, I am no longer a virgin, and ruined. One time is enough to brand me un-dateable/not-fantasy-fodder for some guys. You could be a woman's fantasy, if you so choose to. There's no way in hell I could ever be a man's. That right there says which fantasy is unrealistic... which one could an average, normal person achieve. Oh please a huge part of it was because the man was extremely tall good looking and rich The story wouldnt work as well if the main character was short and balding nor would their be a demand for the movie if the main character had to look like Steve Buscemi Edited April 10, 2014 by PJKino 2
verhrzn Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 Oh please a huge part of it was because the man was extremely tall good looking and rich The story wouldnt work as well if the main character was short and balding nor would their be a demand for the movie if the main character had to look like Steve Buscemi Some part of it was because the character was described as good looking. But here's the ironic thing: No where, not once, in the vast amounts of descriptions about Cheward (Christian/Edward), are the characters described as tall, or given specific "handsome" traits. Oh sure, the books are absolutely dripping with what a marble-cake Adonis the main male character is. But actual descriptions of height or body shape are never mentioned. Hair and eye color is about as far as you get. Edward is never described as muscular. Christian is never described as tall. (His pants do "hang in that way" off his hips a lot, but no one freaking knows what that means.) They are that cardboard; they are meant to be, so that women can project their own idea about what "handsome" means. Just like you've projected that "marble cake Adonis" means tall. Now rich, I will grant you. But there have been plenty of chick romance fodder in which the guy is the one from the wrong side of tracks (the Notebook, for example.) In romance stories, it just seems that there has to be some sort of factor that would make the hero and heroine have to "struggle" to be together.... and being from different socio-economic backgrounds is an easy storyteller tool to achieve that. But the guy being the rich one isn't an automatic pre-requite, and I'd say is also just pretty standard fantasy inclusion. I mean, do you prefer in your fantasy that all of the characters are poor serfs? No, of course your characters are going to be rich, because it's escapist fantasy. But trying to extrapolate what people want in real life versus what they enjoy reading in fantasy is pretty damn silly. 1
Anela Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 Oh please a huge part of it was because the man was extremely tall good looking and rich The story wouldnt work as well if the main character was short and balding nor would their be a demand for the movie if the main character had to look like Steve Buscemi I'm surprised more men don't sing its praises then: man in his thirties, gets to totally dominate beautiful, inexperienced, college-aged girl. The second part of your comment is more likely in this world, especially if the short guy was rich. We're kindly informed of that all the time, by men who are working on becoming rich instead of actually transforming their personalities and insecurities. 1
Anela Posted April 10, 2014 Posted April 10, 2014 So I'm holding onto that for today... We have another date for this weekend. Go cart races! He says they go up to 50 miles an hr (with a gleam in his eye)... That's great!
Els Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 V - interesting analysis of 50 shades. I'm surprised you even managed to get through all of it. I always thought I should just to see what all the hype was about, but after reading the first few pages I always end up gagging. I've seen heaps of completely free fanfics that were better written than that. Oh please a huge part of it was because the man was extremely tall good looking and rich The story wouldnt work as well if the main character was short and balding nor would their be a demand for the movie if the main character had to look like Steve Buscemi Is this your first time venturing into the great world of movies and TV? I don't think anyone needs informing that media typically employs good-looking men and women to sell to a larger audience. It's hardly rocket science.
gaius Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 OK... I just finished a thread of my own stressing out about a lot of the same things... I think you need to realize that a lot of the same women you claim to want are having the exact same frustrations. ... and as I say that... know that I went on a very nice date last night with a guy who is my height (5'6"), who is three years older than me... who is not my physical ideal but takes good care of himself... who is divorced (like me)... But somehow took the time to buy a nice bouquet of flowers for his date with me (I found out at the end of the date)... and we talked about cars and motorcycles (he has won awards at car shows and used to ride motorcycles)... and it was the first time in a very long time I didn't feel like a freak for liking those things... and still being able to be a girl and be thrilled to have someone buy me flowers. So I'm holding onto that for today... We have another date for this weekend. Go cart races! He says they go up to 50 miles an hr (with a gleam in his eye)... So are you gonna let him win or is it a fight to the death? I remember the first time I destroyed Disenchantedly at mini golf. Was awesome. :bunny: Might have had to break up if she won.
verhrzn Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 V - interesting analysis of 50 shades. I'm surprised you even managed to get through all of it. I always thought I should just to see what all the hype was about, but after reading the first few pages I always end up gagging. I've seen heaps of completely free fanfics that were better written than that. I only survived because I read it alongside reading Jenny Trout's excellent chapter-by-chapter break down, and because I skimmed hard core. It's a terrible, awful book. It made me miss Twilight, that's how bad it was. But I was determined to get through it just so I could criticize it, and lit-block people who were using it for their agendas (aka, using it to demonstrate how all women want to be dominated.)
joystickd Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 But I was determined to get through it just so I could criticize it, and lit-block people who were using it for their agendas (aka, using it to demonstrate how all women want to be dominated.) Women do but it's different degrees for every woman and then some like to do a mixture of both.
VeronicaRoss Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 There is something really off about how you write about women and marriage. Are you from a culture that doesn't value women as equals, do you have a hard time emotionally relating to others, or are you even gay and not able or willing to accept that? Something is up, whatever it is. You write about women as if they were objects and marriage a check-list item that you need to get done to be a socially-accepted man. That's going to create misery for you and anyone you might marry. Are you the male equivalent of the woman you think you deserve? Chances are you aren't. Maybe what your ego is having a hard time adjusting to is that the women you were dating didn't want to settle -- with you -- either? You may not be able to love other people, some people truly can't and were born that way. It doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. I'm not saying these things to be insulting. It's just your objectifying women and inability to relate to them emotionally is so extreme I think you need to go to a counselor and discuss YOU. And please, do not marry a woman you think is less than you and as settling. Over time that will devastate her, your future kids, and will make you lonelier. It isn't worth it, stay single instead.
ltjg45 Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 Well, you don't have to worry about me settling for a woman that I just don't want in its entirely. I have seen enough from the women around me to kill the idea of settling just for the sake of being in a relationship. Hell, I have a hard time dating a woman that has one deal breaker because I can't stand said deal breaker at all. If a woman smokes, is an alcoholic, has 2 or more kids while being under 30, or doesn't have a job, I will pass on her without a second thought. Now? It is either I was able to get the women I actually want or I will be content staying single for life. There is no inbetween in that sentence. After all, I have been a single and a virgin for 27 years of my life, about to hit 28 in like 5 months from now. I am certainly isn't afraid of staying single for the rest of my life if I have to. 1
atlg8r Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 I'm not looking down on woman and would still date an average in looks with a good personality. I meant that as an idea, it would have been great for a woman to have it all; great looking like Adriana, strong morals/values too and a decent woman overall. Not easy to find a woman that has it all; high in looks, morals, personality and nice. I already know I can't have it all. I admit the only disadvantage in Adriana would be the whole waiting till marriage but I think if I was very much in love with her, liked everything else and her beauty, I'll wait for her. I have to say she's a rare woman. When I was a virgin, I would look up to her. She's still the most prettiest woman I've ever seen and with good morals, unlike the typical ones I've encountered. You don't actually know her. You only know what her publicists want you to know. She may be a terrible, vapid b!t$c for all we know. Live in the real world. Get to know some women as people. If you enjoy spending time with them and they seem to share some of your values, ask them out. But if you're starting out with a VS model as your "10", then your whole scale is skewed. Seriously drop the model talk and look around you. Photoshop doesn't exist in real life. Further, you probably need to do a good inventory of yourself to determine what exactly you are bringing to the table. My fiance is not who I would have pictured myself being with a year ago. But he is an amazing man who I become more attracted to with every day I spend with him, more because of who he is than anything appearance wise. I am betting you start with looks first, and then examine a woman's character. Should be the other way around.
verhrzn Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 Women do but it's different degrees for every woman and then some like to do a mixture of both. Yeah, that's why there are female dominatrices. Because all women want to be dominated in some way.
ltjg45 Posted April 11, 2014 Posted April 11, 2014 I am betting you start with looks first, and then examine a woman's character. Should be the other way around. I can't agree with that. Unless the OP is content with a sexless relationship (and even if he is, I doubt his partner would be happy with that), looks matter quite a bit. There is simply no way around it. If you don't find the other person attractive, then don't bother. It doesn't matter how awesome that person's personality is if you don't find him/her attractive and you actually want to have sex at some point. This goes for both males and females. I do agree that his looks target is unrealistic but I don't agree that looks has no weight in attraction. In fact, I daresay looks has more value than personality at the start of the relationship.
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