can an affair actually lead to love?

[DKT3]

Remember this includes all the one-night stands and affairs that were not really the type you are talking about. In addition, many times one or both affair partners after getting out of a marriage may be a bit reluctant to get married again. This doesn't mean they didn't go on to live a happy life together. And don't discount the fact that not everyone would admit that their marriage was the result of an affair.

 

Bottom line, be a leery of these types of statistics, they are very questionable at best.

 

When I was a young man I kinda lived on the left side of the law. Not doing horrible things but things I shouldn't have done. While involved I saw those things as "not so bad". As I matured I came to understand alittle wrong is still wrong.

 

Point is, when we're in a situation it doesn't seem as bad.

 

Stats are real, those are real people behind those numbers. Relationships born from infidelity rarely work out. Only about 10% make it two years. Those numbers are real. There are reasons behind the numbers. Most people that engage in infidelity are broken when it comes to relationships, this isn't something that normally ends with the relationship. Those issues carry over.

 

I'm not judging, no one is perfect. I personally don't buy the line "you can't help who you fall in love with" the truth is you have lines to cross to get to that point. Ever line is a choice, there for it doesn't just happen, its chosen. Just my opinion, and the opinion I had before my marriage was touched with infidelity.

 

Not my intent to offend. Sorry if I did.

[Tressugar]

Yes it does happen! My ex boyfriend of five years had an affair and then married her a few months after their affair! This was about 15 years ago and as I know they are still married.

[ZMM]

When I was a young man I kinda lived on the left side of the law. Not doing horrible things but things I shouldn't have done. While involved I saw those things as "not so bad". As I matured I came to understand alittle wrong is still wrong.

 

I don't know what type of criminal activity you were involved in as a youth, so I can't really say if that equates with personal choices made by adults in regard to their own interpersonal relationships and how that relates to the success or lasting quality of an affair where the parties get out of their existing marriages.

 

Stats are real, those are real people behind those numbers. Relationships born from infidelity rarely work out. Only about 10% make it two years. Those numbers are real. There are reasons behind the numbers. Most people that engage in infidelity are broken when it comes to relationships, this isn't something that normally ends with the relationship. Those issues carry over.

 

As I said, the numbers include a whole variety of what are being called affairs, such as one night stands. And you say 10% don't make it two years, what do you think those stats are for non-affair relationships? Have you looked at the stats for divorce? And since we are including one night stands as affairs, we should include dating in general when making the comparison - how many of those make it to a 2+ year relationships? The point is statistics can be used to make the point you want to make. So, you need to think about those real people behind those numbers and what those numbers really mean. Sometimes they don't mean a whole lot.

 

I'm not judging, no one is perfect. I personally don't buy the line "you can't help who you fall in love with" the truth is you have lines to cross to get to that point. Ever line is a choice, there for it doesn't just happen, its chosen. Just my opinion, and the opinion I had before my marriage was touched with infidelity.

 

Not my intent to offend. Sorry if I did.

 

I'm not sure this pertains to the topic submitted by the OP, but that is your opinion. Mine is, you can't help who you fall in love with, but you can control how and when you act on it, at least most of the time.

[goodyblue]

When I was a young man I kinda lived on the left side of the law. Not doing horrible things but things I shouldn't have done. While involved I saw those things as "not so bad". As I matured I came to understand alittle wrong is still wrong.

 

Point is, when we're in a situation it doesn't seem as bad.

 

Stats are real, those are real people behind those numbers. Relationships born from infidelity rarely work out. Only about 10% make it two years. Those numbers are real. There are reasons behind the numbers. Most people that engage in infidelity are broken when it comes to relationships, this isn't something that normally ends with the relationship. Those issues carry over.

 

I'm not judging, no one is perfect. I personally don't buy the line "you can't help who you fall in love with" the truth is you have lines to cross to get to that point. Ever line is a choice, there for it doesn't just happen, its chosen. Just my opinion, and the opinion I had before my marriage was touched with infidelity.

 

Not my intent to offend. Sorry if I did.

 

A person is not always broken if they engage in an affair. Sometimes the marriage is broken. And you're right, wrong is wrong. The thing is, what is wrong for you may not be wrong for someone else.

 

As for stats? There is no way to get a true stat. People who are on the wrong end of the affair like to quote them, but there are so many things going on there is just no way to get a proper stat. Lots of people won't admit their relationship began as an affair. Not only that, Lots of people won't admit they were unfaithful. These things are so secretive that there is no possible way to get a proper statistic, even if it is anonymous. Sorry, I don't buy the stats. Mostly I don't buy them because of personal experience. I know people who were involved in affairs. Some made it, some didn't. The thing is, it certainly wasn't a measley 3% as people state, or your ten percent. Of course, these are real live people and not words on the web...

 

I do think it's not the norm for affairs to work out, but it DOES happen. IF you love the person you are involved with. I would never recommend an affair to anyone. It is a tough road and the chances of it working out are not great, but they are higher than people would like to admit.

[Summer Breeze]

I was the Ow but I was single. We have now been married over 5 years. We seriously went through hell when he left, but I never thought about it being hell until afterwards. I actually thought we were pretty happy.

 

But we never lied. When we got together, everyone knew he left for me. We didn't lie. We just went with the reality. And actually I'd be pissed if he tried to say we just met. Because in actuality we've been together over 9 years. And we love each other more than ever.

 

This!! We never lied about it either. Our individual kids and our extended families and our friends. We had a history and it was both good and bad but it was our history.

 

We didn't seem to have a huge fallout but that could have been because I'd ended things and for a few years we never spoke. During those years he ended up ending the M and finally we spoke and have been together for over a year now. In that time when we were apart he went through counseling and came clean with his kids. We had both grown and changed by the time we were back together, and we grew and changed even more when we got back together.

 

I think APs end up together more often than many want to admit and I think something you have to keep in mind is that just because one or both of you left a M, it doesn't mean you MUST end up together. It means you want to be together and see what happens. There's a huge pressure that if you don't stay together then it's a failure and that simply isn't the case.

 

I do recommend a good counselor though. It helped both of us and the kids.

[waterwoman]

Of course it can.

 

One of our oldest friends married her MM 13 years ago. They seem happy and very loving.

[ZMM]

One other point about these statistics regarding longevity of an after affair relationship - there are so many different types of affairs and they all get lumped together. The only thing they have in common is that started while at least one of the parties was married. Some affairs would be more similar to a marriage type relationship than they would be to one of the other affair types. So, grouping all affairs together and using that as a correlation that infers the relationship will not work out is a faulty assumption.

 

cum hoc, ergo propter hoc - With this, therefore because of this

 

It's a false assumption and uses faulty logic

[violet1]

I don't particularly believe in the stats. I know quite a few couples who have started out as affairs and are still together after years. I have an uncle who left his wife for his OW. They've been married for 20 years. I worked with a couple about 10 years who met at our job. They left their spouses for each other. They claim to be soul mates. I also think there are a lot of couples who started out as an affair, but the affair was never discovered. I think it really depends on the people and the circumstances. If a person is truly done with the marriage and in an exit affair, it's definitely possible. It's just hard to know if a person is truly checked out their marriage. The chemicals in our brains and emotions can cause a person to become very confused.

[Sub]

The question I have about these stats is whether they're just counting people who left their M for their AP and started a relationship, or ALL people who are involved in A's. In my personal experience, I know of eight couples(family and friends) who've been affected by A's. In only one of them did the WS leave for their AP and marry them. Unfortunately, after 17 years, that couple is currently in the middle of a D because he ended up having an A with a former student.

[Arieswoman]

Sub (post 19#)

You asked,

 

Is it possible that the WS who leaves a marriage/family for their AP puts in more of an effort to "make" it work because they gave up so much to be with that person? So as not to be left with nothing in the end? I think we can agree that the idea of "settling" with a spouse occurs. Do WS's settle for AP's in a similar way, especially when the option to R isn't there?

 

and that's an interesting question.

 

Here's my scenario.

 

My exH had a 7th month affair with a girl who was engaged. He refused to end it when I found out "because he loved her".

 

I told him to leave and filed for divorce. He finally left a month after Dday.

 

As soon as he was free, she didn't want him and decided to make a go of it with her fiancee.

 

I waited a couple of months and then told her fiancee, who promptly broke off the engagement. She went back to my exH. Two months later the divorce was final.

 

They moved in together about a year after the divorce was final. They got married three years later when she became pregnant.

 

So here we have 2 people who didn't choose each other ending up together.

 

Obviously it doesn't bother them, as they are still together 15+ years later.

 

Me, I'd rather be alone than be some-one's 2nd choice.

[cocorico]

Sub (post 19#)

You asked,

 

 

 

and that's an interesting question.

 

Here's my scenario.

 

My exH had a 7th month affair with a girl who was engaged. He refused to end it when I found out "because he loved her".

 

I told him to leave and filed for divorce. He finally left a month after Dday.

 

As soon as he was free, she didn't want him and decided to make a go of it with her fiancee.

 

I waited a couple of months and then told her fiancee, who promptly broke off the engagement. She went back to my exH. Two months later the divorce was final.

 

They moved in together about a year after the divorce was final. They got married three years later when she became pregnant.

 

So here we have 2 people who didn't choose each other ending up together.

 

Obviously it doesn't bother them, as they are still together 15+ years later.

 

Me, I'd rather be alone than be some-one's 2nd choice.

 

Two people who didn't choose each other? from what you described, one did - your xH refused to end it with her "because he loved her". How was that "not choosing her "? It seems the opposite, to me - he refused to accept your stipulation for staying M, thereby choosing the R with her over the R with you.

 

She, OTOH, chose her fiancé over him, and then got dumped and had to "settle" for him. But from what you described, he was her first choice - so one of them got what he wanted, and the other got second prize. Which, I guess, is good enough for some.

[Sub]

I think Arieswoman means that if one of them is settling because their first choice didn't want them, "they" didn't choose each other. Only one of them did. Which was the case.

[DKT3]

Since my life was touched by infidelity I have read and studied the topic at great length. Like all A types I have to understand things.

 

What I've concluded is people in affairs tend to have their needs being met by both partners in combination. All the guilt and bad feelings are over ruled by their own selfish needs. They become a true tripod, without all three legs it falls. For whatever reason there is a need for both partners. Of course nothing is absolute, so in some cases affair relationships can and do work out best in the long run for all involved.

 

Its an up hill battle with tons of baggage. Affairs aren't real relationships for the most part. I know some will be upset at me saying this but let's be honest. While your off with your AP where are the kids? Where is the stress about bills? The worry about a poor relationship with your parents or siblings? Those things all get pushed aside while you escape to fantasy land for a few feel good hours. When those realities meet is when the affair is truely put to the test. Its at this point things start to fall apart. Sure those things maybe talked about, but not dealt with in the affair.

 

The human mind can play tricks on us. Often people become interest in others outside the marriage then it is what actually creates the issues within the marriage. History is rewriten and the issues are what pushed one into the affair.

 

A resent German based study on infidelity showed that 60% of unfaithful wives leave the marriage for the AP three quarters regret it and try to return to the husband with 10 months. Only 9% of men leave the wife for the AP in that case 83% don't regret leaving the marriage. Could this be because the reason why men and women cheat? One emotionally driven, one physically and ego driven.

 

This is getting long, I will end with this. There is that 10% that find happiness with the AP. Its something to hold on to. Not all marriage are meant to last, many should have never been married to start with.

[ZMM]

A resent German based study on infidelity showed that 60% of unfaithful wives leave the marriage for the AP three quarters regret it and try to return to the husband with 10 months. Only 9% of men leave the wife for the AP in that case 83% don't regret leaving the marriage. Could this be because the reason why men and women cheat? One emotionally driven, one physically and ego driven.

 

I am just curious, could you explain why you think that because men are less likely to leave for their AP and when they do more likely not to have regrets it indicates that men have affairs for reasons attributed to physical and ego.

 

I can see other reasons why men might be less likely to leave, but I am not sure I follow your logic here.

[Patna]

I am just curious, could you explain why you think that because men are less likely to leave for their AP and when they do more likely not to have regrets it indicates that men have affairs for reasons attributed to physical and ego.

 

I can see other reasons why men might be less likely to leave, but I am not sure I follow your logic here.

 

 

 

I guess in an A, women usually invests more emotionally and becomes more attached to the OM. They also lack the ability to compartmentalize and detach their emotions from the A. Thus they are more likely to leave their H for the OM especially if their marriage is not doing well.

 

For the men, they can seek for an A even though they still love their wife & their marriage is great. They can also compartmentalize and detach their feelings way better, hence they can be less invested in the A. Without feelings and emotions, they can easily leave the A and go back to the marriage. My xOW once told me that men also tend to have a responsibility they feel towards their wives. So I guessed that's why they seldom leave their marriage for the AP.

[DKT3]

I am just curious, could you explain why you think that because men are less likely to leave for their AP and when they do more likely not to have regrets it indicates that men have affairs for reasons attributed to physical and ego.

 

I can see other reasons why men might be less likely to leave, but I am not sure I follow your logic here.

 

Stats and averages reflect human nature, what's most likely to happen in certain situation. It doesn't include everyone. You may be different then the stats however most people aren't. Its how they knew Obama would be President before anyone voted.

 

I grew up in a horrible part of LA. Gangs, drugs, murders. Stats say that I was most likely to fall in line. I didn't, I earned BS/BA and MBA. However none of my friends got out, they did follow suit and made the stats hold true. Human nature, but not everyone is the same

[ZMM]

Its how they knew Obama would be President before anyone voted.

 

I think that involved actual polling.

[ZMM]

I guess in an A, women usually invests more emotionally and becomes more attached to the OM. They also lack the ability to compartmentalize and detach their emotions from the A. Thus they are more likely to leave their H for the OM especially if their marriage is not doing well.

 

For the men, they can seek for an A even though they still love their wife & their marriage is great. They can also compartmentalize and detach their feelings way better, hence they can be less invested in the A. Without feelings and emotions, they can easily leave the A and go back to the marriage. My xOW once told me that men also tend to have a responsibility they feel towards their wives. So I guessed that's why they seldom leave their marriage for the AP.

 

I think sometimes men stay out of a sense of responsibility or duty as well, even if the M isn't good.

[DKT3]

I think that involved actual polling.

 

Yes, and so are stats which come from studies that involve polling. The study I spoke of polled over 35,000 people during a seven year period.

[ZMM]

So why do you think men are less likely to have regrets? How do you see that tied to physical & ego?

[DKT3]

So why do you think men are less likely to have regrets? How do you see that tied to physical & ego?

 

Not all men step out to get some "extra" or have his ego stroked. Some are emotionally vested with OW. I believe more men leave not so much for the other woman herself, but because the way she treats him in relation to the way his wife treats him. We men, I general don't need much of the emotional stuff, we do need "your doing a great job honey" or "your an awesome husband and father" every once in a while.

 

Mostly, I think when men leave without regret its because he simply doesn't love his wife. Women are more complex and overall more caring, even when not "in love"

[Arieswoman]

Corico, (post #36),

You make some good points in your post.

 

What I always wondered was - if she was his choice over me, why did he not leave me for her. Why wait until he was discovered and asked to leave? Why stall all through the divorce and delay things?

 

There was no reason for him to stay if he was unhappy. There were no extraneous complications. There were no children and I had a career (in which I earned more than he did) so I was perfectly able to support myself.

 

The only reason I can come up with was that he was cake-eating and maybe didn't love her as much as he thought.

 

I've accepted that I will never know the whole truth.

[Summer Breeze]

Remember this includes all the one-night stands and affairs that were not really the type you are talking about. In addition, many times one or both affair partners after getting out of a marriage may be a bit reluctant to get married again. This doesn't mean they didn't go on to live a happy life together. And don't discount the fact that not everyone would admit that their marriage was the result of an affair.

 

Bottom line, be a leery of these types of statistics, they are very questionable at best.

 

I agree with this. The one thing I always wonder when these stats are thrown out is what the measurement of success is. Marriage? Dating? Being together 1 year? 5? 50?

 

Having been in an A and moved to a fulltime R with DMM I can say that success is going to be something different to every single person and that'll change according to the stages they're at. After dating for 3 months and participating in therapy and working hard for a future I felt we were really successful -- we were actually looking to a future. When we were 6 months into it and had talked to the kids and were mixing things up and happy I felt really successful. There was a point a few months ago we almost lost it and broke up. We managed to stay together and worked through it but if we had then would we have been 'unsuccessful'? No. In our heads we had a future and we were trying. Whether we failed or succeeded in the R had nothing to do with it starting from an A.

 

So, who's to say what's successful and what's not?

 

The stats that get thrown out all the time are the 3%. It was less than a few thousand people that participated and they were all highly successful businessmen. I believe they M their APs and only stayed M for a certain length of time. Pretty small sampling of a very limited pool of participants. And who is measuring 'success'?

 

Over my life I've known a lot of people in Rs that started from As. Some have fallen apart over the years but most have resulted in very long Rs. Happy? I have no more idea if they're happy than the M people who keep banging on about how happy they are. I'm old and wise enough to know we have no idea what's going on behind closed doors and the people behind them close them for a reason.

[Summer Breeze]

Since my life was touched by infidelity I have read and studied the topic at great length. Like all A types I have to understand things.

 

What I've concluded is people in affairs tend to have their needs being met by both partners in combination. All the guilt and bad feelings are over ruled by their own selfish needs. They become a true tripod, without all three legs it falls. For whatever reason there is a need for both partners. Of course nothing is absolute, so in some cases affair relationships can and do work out best in the long run for all involved.

 

Its an up hill battle with tons of baggage. Affairs aren't real relationships for the most part. I know some will be upset at me saying this but let's be honest. While your off with your AP where are the kids? Where is the stress about bills? The worry about a poor relationship with your parents or siblings? Those things all get pushed aside while you escape to fantasy land for a few feel good hours. When those realities meet is when the affair is truely put to the test. Its at this point things start to fall apart. Sure those things maybe talked about, but not dealt with in the affair.

 

The human mind can play tricks on us. Often people become interest in others outside the marriage then it is what actually creates the issues within the marriage. History is rewriten and the issues are what pushed one into the affair.

 

A resent German based study on infidelity showed that 60% of unfaithful wives leave the marriage for the AP three quarters regret it and try to return to the husband with 10 months. Only 9% of men leave the wife for the AP in that case 83% don't regret leaving the marriage. Could this be because the reason why men and women cheat? One emotionally driven, one physically and ego driven.

 

This is getting long, I will end with this. There is that 10% that find happiness with the AP. Its something to hold on to. Not all marriage are meant to last, many should have never been married to start with.

 

I'm not upset about what you've written. You've been respectful and bringing valid points to debate. You're not sitting there bashing OW/OM over the head and it's appreciated. You'll have more of them listening to your points this way rather than attacking them. Thank you.

 

The bolded. There are a lot of As that actually have these factors in them. Mine did. When DMM and I were in the A we had joint business ventures and properties. I knew his extended family and they knew about our R. I was there when his mother was sick and in the hospital. I was involved in some serious dramas and accidents with his siblings. We had stresses that were not dissimilar to what I'd faced in my M years ago. We also had added stresses because of the nature of the R. Just because you aren't facing the stresses that present in a M, doesn't mean the stresses from your own situation isn't as bad or maybe even worse. I agree a lot of the things we dealt with in the A were different than the things we deal with on a day to day basis now but they were by no means easier.

 

As are real Rs. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge and accept it, they are. I know when I was a BS I clung desperately to the notion my xHs R with his OW wasn't an R, but it was. It was a defense mechanism for me and I never really healed till I accepted it.

[goodyblue]

I'm not upset about what you've written. You've been respectful and bringing valid points to debate. You're not sitting there bashing OW/OM over the head and it's appreciated. You'll have more of them listening to your points this way rather than attacking them. Thank you.

 

The bolded. There are a lot of As that actually have these factors in them. Mine did. When DMM and I were in the A we had joint business ventures and properties. I knew his extended family and they knew about our R. I was there when his mother was sick and in the hospital. I was involved in some serious dramas and accidents with his siblings. We had stresses that were not dissimilar to what I'd faced in my M years ago. We also had added stresses because of the nature of the R. Just because you aren't facing the stresses that present in a M, doesn't mean the stresses from your own situation isn't as bad or maybe even worse. I agree a lot of the things we dealt with in the A were different than the things we deal with on a day to day basis now but they were by no means easier.

 

As are real Rs. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge and accept it, they are. I know when I was a BS I clung desperately to the notion my xHs R with his OW wasn't an R, but it was. It was a defense mechanism for me and I never really healed till I accepted it.

 

Thanks for this. For some of us, our A was the first real relationship we'd had in a long, long time. It was SO real and still is.