Zenstudent Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 My advice and thoughts are of course based on a case where he wants to try to make it work and try to beat the bad odds. And there is no other way than to establish and enforce hard boundaries for himself. I agree that open relationship/swinging most likely is not for this couple. But discussing the possibilities may be an eyeopener for both of them - and realize that they in fact had a onesided open marriage. Sort of. There is one of your (Oldshirt) comments that I tend to not agree with. It's most likely that she wants her cake and eat it too, obviously. But I also think that many cake eaters only do so because they think they can get away with it. Once it becomes clear that they won't get away scott free, most figure out that they need to find another path, a more healthy path in which they may (or may not) reconnect with their spouse. To do this it's also important that they get heard. Untill now, OP's wife thought (and maybe still thinks) that she could get away with it. Therefore, hard boundaries and tough love for this one.
oldshirt Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 There is one of your (Oldshirt) comments that I tend to not agree with. Only one?? LOL It's most likely that she wants her cake and eat it too, obviously. But I also think that many cake eaters only do so because they think they can get away with it. Once it becomes clear that they won't get away scott free, most figure out that they need to find another path, a more healthy path in which they may (or may not) reconnect with their spouse. To do this it's also important that they get heard. There is some fundamental truth to that. However the concern I have there is whether the BS should try to reconcile even if the WS sees the error of their ways and wants to R. Each BS is going to be different but there has to come a time when the betrayal is so egregious that even if the WS feels remorse, 'fesses up, becomes transparent and is willing to work at R, it still doesn't matter. The damage is done and the cards are thrown in and the hand is folded. In this particular case, the WS is living an ongoing lifestyle of multiple affairs, continued gaslighting and rugsweeping and is not showing any remorse or determination of trying to reconcile the marriage and be faithful. What boundaries other than locking her in a jail cell in the basement is going to make any difference? Untill now, OP's wife thought (and maybe still thinks) that she could get away with it. And she is getting away with it. Nothing is happening to her other than him being upset and that doesn't seem to be bothering her too badly, or at least not bad enough to stop the behavior. I also think she knew eventually the truth would come out but she continued on anyway and she is continuing to dismiss his protests and his confrontations. That is likely because she knows that he is very resistant to the thought of divorce and will likely let her continue her bad behavior until at least the kids are grown if not forever. Therefore, hard boundaries and tough love for this one. Hard boundaries and tough love will most likely result in her going deep underground with the affairs and being resentful and frustrated by not getting the action that she wants. Again, this isn't an office flirtation that got carried away, this is a conscious lifestyle choice that took a lot of planning, corroboration with other people and a lot of work to bring to fruition and to maintain. He probably only really knows the tip of the iceberg too. If he were to lower the boom on her and really enforce some hard boundaries on appropriate behavior, she may pay lipservice to it at first but would then grow frustrated and resentful and take it deeper underground and then at some point just shove back and pack up and leave or perhaps even say that this is how it is going to be so accept it. My point and the point of the other posters is to simply eliminate all those intermediate steps and simply move forward with the divorce and move on with his life whether she wants to or not. Yes that is all pure speculation on my part trying to guess what a complete stranger is going to do but I doubt if I and the rest of us are that far off. There is a chance she might capitulate if he really lowers the boom on her but then he is going to be left with someone who is only staying with him because he huffed and puffed and threatened to blow her house down. Not because she actually loves, respects or desires him. 10 characters
gotsohosed Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 My situation is not that much different except no kids together. I monitor also and it is wearing on me. I have to put my big boy pants on, man up and get the lawyer to send the representation letter. My lawyer is just waiting for my word to do it. 1
Zenstudent Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Oldshirt; you and other poster may very well be right, that this marriage is and should be over. I may even agree with you, but I don't feel like I know these two people quite well enough to judge. I also know that a lot of BS find it very difficult to end a relationship without trying to fix things first, simply because love doesn't always die from one minute to the next, or maybe because they believe that everyone should be given another chance, or for whatever reason they may have. LS-posters may agree or disagree with this belief. My posts were meant to offer some guidance IF, and only IF this is the path OP chooses. Because a lot of BS do this, and many of them don't come back to listen to constant hardball advice. The result is massive rugsweeping, which is what I try to help him avoid.
atreides Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 But so much has happened with the additional info that continues percolating to the surface and her bizarre relationship with one of her nursing friends who helped her deceive me. In a number of recent Facebook messages she apologizes to her friend, Shari, for staying with me and with her family and tells Shari she is giving me and my sons "another chance.". Wow, did i read that right, give you another chance???? You, another chance??? How backwards a s s thinking is that! This is beyond A fog given the time, planning and multiple partners as this is not the typical A of the one guy who woos with false promises of love and what not. She is on a ride, she created. So, if i read that right, the context is devastating. For what it is worth, you both can be great parents to your kids, actually much healthier in all aspects being divorced, especially from a very toxic M that you have described. You need your sanity too, your kids do as well, there is no real reason to stay with her unless you love her. We all too often use the other details of life as an excuse to stay before the most important, which is what you built your M on. Your love for her will have to endure inconceivable odds based on what you wrote, but let it be the reason you stay above all else. If you do stay, take control, SHE IS THE ONE WHO GETS ANOTHER CHANCE, take control! Re-read, what some have written as for conditions she needs to meet on your terms. Best of luck, but i am not sure luck is enough. 1
Author stabler Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) Thank you all for the advice. Yes, it seems I have been in a “fog” for years. There has always been much going on with work and family and an assumption that my wife had my back and we were working together. Before this all tumbled out – and continues tumbling out – had I participated in a forum such as this, I probably would have been telling the aggrieved husband to immediately separate and commence divorce proceedings – this remains a likely option for me. However, 15 years, two wonderful, thriving sons and so many fantastic memories – although many marriage related memories, milestones and events are now exposed as bogus – I am having a huge problem ending the marriage. In my mind, my marriage, previous relationship with my wife and pride in my family defined me. To end it is to admit to failure. I also know it will hurt my sons at a time in their lives when they are just starting to carve out their own niche, identity and place. I feel it is important to keep the facade in place until my sons can better handle a separation. Parenting, in my opinion, requires sacrifice – even as rending and disappointing as this. I have already tried the “hard” list of nonnegotiable items and she failed purposefully and brilliantly on every one. I am now in the cohabitation phase: me and my sons; her and my sons; and she and I – not “us”. It is a cool, sad relationship and one, although she says she loves me and wants to stay together, I have no idea where her heart is and what is still going on on the side. She remains in league with her toxic nursing friends – yes, along with Shari, there are several others that help/helped her and encouraged her to sleep around and have these affairs. While the decision was ultimately hers, the fact these individuals laugh about and revel in this activity and the hurt it causes myself and my sons, has left me dumbfounded. My wife claims it is just “girl talk” and since I am a man, I do not understand the close relationship women have and the fact she can talk about her feelings with other women is something men will never understand. I grew up with three wonderful sisters and had several long-term relationships prior to meeting my wife. In all this time I never experienced this or suspected that women could collaborate like this. Any women participating in this thread please shed some light on my wife’s description of women’s friendships: is it a fair description? If a close female friend asked you to actively participate in her infidelity, deceiving and assisting in facilitating multiple affairs, what would your response be? At no time did I ever blame Shari or Katie or any of her other enablers and encouragers, but I certainly let them know the damage their follies have done to me and our family. Interestingly, this seemed to have caused my wife the greatest grief in this entire episode: that I upset Shari and hurt her friendship and relationship (I still do not know the exact parameters, depth or possible intimacy of the relationship) with Shari. So, I remain numb, at the crossroad. And despite suggestions to the contrary, I remain strong. I am not backed in to a corner, cowering and afraid. My focus is my sons and any action I take will be in their best interests. I just need to take inventory and assemble a plan – and that is why I have come here. Again: thank you all. Edited March 31, 2014 by stabler grammar
karnak Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 However, 15 years, two wonderful, thriving sons and so many fantastic memories – although many marriage related memories, milestones and events are now exposed as bogus – I am having a huge problem ending the marriage. In my mind, my marriage, previous relationship with my wife and pride in my family defined me. To end it is to admit to failure. I also know it will hurt my sons at a time in their lives when they are just starting to carve out their own niche, identity and place. I feel it is important to keep the facade in place until my sons can better handle a separation. Parenting, in my opinion, requires sacrifice – even as rending and disappointing as this. Yeas, parenting does demand sacrifice. But never forget to be honest with yourself. Are you really hanging to your marriage because of your kids or, deep down, you are just too proud or too scared of admitting failure? Don't forget that, by mantaining a facade of a marriage, you're just proving to your kids that, sometimes, you have to "lie" and "keep appearances" in order to attain a certain goal or mantain a certain status. Exactly the same thing your wife has done by stayng married while at the same time indulging in affairs. Think about it. Be strong and honest.
stillafool Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 There is no way to not hurt your sons with this marriage. I'm sure they recognize that something is OFF with you two right now. Children are resilient and will bounce back when placed in a healthy environment. Your wife can still be a good mother and you can still be a good father; just not together. Don't believe your wife for a moment that she hasn't had sex with Shari. Her conversation with her pretty much can tell you that. Please stop blaming your wifes friends for her cheating. She is a grown woman who knows she is married and knows what is and isn't appropriate. She has to carry that burden on her own. She will cheat again because that is in her makeup. If you choose to stay with her know that she will cheat again. 1
aliveagain Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Thank you all for the advice. Yes, it seems I have been in a “fog” for years. There has always been much going on with work and family and an assumption that my wife had my back and we were working together. Before this all tumbled out – and continues tumbling out – had I participated in a forum such as this, I probably would have been telling the aggrieved husband to immediately separate and commence divorce proceedings – this remains a likely option for me. However, 15 years, two wonderful, thriving sons and so many fantastic memories – although many marriage related memories, milestones and events are now exposed as bogus – I am having a huge problem ending the marriage. In my mind, my marriage, previous relationship with my wife and pride in my family defined me. To end it is to admit to failure. I also know it will hurt my sons at a time in their lives when they are just starting to carve out their own niche, identity and place. I feel it is important to keep the facade in place until my sons can better handle a separation. Parenting, in my opinion, requires sacrifice – even as rending and disappointing as this. I have already tried the “hard” list of nonnegotiable items and she failed purposefully and brilliantly on every one. I am now in the cohabitation phase: me and my sons; her and my sons; and she and I – not “us”. It is a cool, sad relationship and one, although she says she loves me and wants to stay together, I have no idea where her heart is and what is still going on on the side. She remains in league with her toxic nursing friends – yes, along with Shari, there are several others that help/helped her and encouraged her to sleep around and have these affairs. While the decision was ultimately hers, the fact these individuals laugh about and revel in this activity and the hurt it causes myself and my sons, has left me dumbfounded. My wife claims it is just “girl talk” and since I am a man, I do not understand the close relationship women have and the fact she can talk about her feelings with other women is something men will never understand. I grew up with three wonderful sisters and had several long-term relationships prior to meeting my wife. In all this time I never experienced this or suspected that women could collaborate like this. Any women participating in this thread please shed some light on my wife’s description of women’s friendships: is it a fair description? If a close female friend asked you to actively participate in her infidelity, deceiving and assisting in facilitating multiple affairs, what would your response be? At no time did I ever blame Shari or Katie or any of her other enablers and encouragers, but I certainly let them know the damage their follies have done to me and our family. Interestingly, this seemed to have caused my wife the greatest grief in this entire episode: that I upset Shari and hurt her friendship and relationship (I still do not know the exact parameters, depth or possible intimacy of the relationship) with Shari. So, I remain numb, at the crossroad. And despite suggestions to the contrary, I remain strong. I am not backed in to a corner, cowering and afraid. My focus is my sons and any action I take will be in their best interests. I just need to take inventory and assemble a plan – and that is why I have come here. Again: thank you all. Sorry friend, to end it is not admitting failure, sometimes ending it is about showing your son's that they should never allow themselves to be put in your position. What will they think when they find out that you stayed in your sh*tty marriage because of them? Staying in a marriage with someone that shows you so little respect because of your kids is absolutely the wrong reason. You can still be an amazing dad, staying with your cheating wife has nothing to do with being a great dad. Your kids will pick up on what your wife is doing to you and maybe think it is acceptable behaviour, is this what you want to teach them that being in a broken home is better than being from a broken home? Your fake interaction will become apparent to them. Your pride in your family sure differs from your wife, she seems to think that meeting men in hotel rooms for sex is one of her marriage perks. Should you decide to stay with this woman make sure you have her sign a post nuptial agreement giving you all the assets and custody of your children if you catch her cheating again. Get rid of the facilitators or I guarantee you they will get rid of you. Make these and professional counselling an absolute requirement for reconciliation or walk because if you place no consequence on her guess what your future looks like? Your wife is openly dating. There are things far, far worse than divorce, sharing your wife with other men is at the top of the list. If she won't stop banging other guys than agree to an open marriage because that's what you've got anyway, you might as well find yourself a girlfriend than you can both lie to your kids. If she won't agree to your terms, get rid oh her before you become the talk of the town, your kids don't need to hear about it from other kids.
No Limit Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Ending it isn't failure. Her failure of being a faithful spouse perhaps, but you haven't failed in anything. You picked your wife and made a mistake, but as long as you're still sane you can still fix it. The title was enough to give me shivers. What are you waiting for? Run for the hills! 1
oldshirt Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 However, 15 years, two wonderful, thriving sons and so many fantastic memories – although many marriage related memories, milestones and events are now exposed as bogus – I am having a huge problem ending the marriage. to be fair, it may not have been bogus in the beginning. She may have been since and legit for a time. She just chose to throw it away and things are intolerable and unacceptable now. When you accept that you cannot ever trust her again and realize that your feelings for her are permanently tainted and realize she has no respect or compassion or desire for you regardless of what she says, you will end the marriage. In my mind, my marriage, previous relationship with my wife and pride in my family defined me. To end it is to admit to failure. you didn't fail in your roles as husband, father, lover, friend. She did. Big time. She's a shtty wife. I also know it will hurt my sons at a time in their lives when they are just starting to carve out their own niche, identity and place. I feel it is important to keep the facade in place until my sons can better handle a separation. Parenting, in my opinion, requires sacrifice – even as rending and disappointing as this. this is where you are falling down a little. Your children aren't the frail, delicate little pansys that you are making them out to be. They need assurance that they will hav two loving, supportive parents that will be there for them. They will still have that. YOU are the one that's taking the hit here, not them. You are the one that's getting screwed over and taking it in the shorts. Their mother is screwing you over, not them. Don't try to apply your pain and anger to them because they don't have it. You are losing a wife, they aren't losing a mother. They'll still have a mother that they will be with and grow up with. She's just going to be in a different house. Their biggest hardship is simply remembering which house to catch the bus to on what day. By staying "for the children" you are placing an unfair burden on them and making them responsible for their parents living in an unhealthy, tense and hostile environment. You are also teaching them that they should be cheated on and treated like sht in order to keep up appearances to the neighbors. I have already tried the “hard” list of nonnegotiable items and she failed purposefully and brilliantly on every one. that's because all you are doing is talking to her and not actually doing anything. You are not taking any action. She knew you would do this so that is why she has been cheating on you as a lifestyle for years. This is what is essentially taking place at your house right now - Stabler, "Stop cheating and be a good wife!" Mrs Stabler, "no, I don't believe I will." Stabler while walking away with tail between legs, "dammit" My point is, you haven't done anything and she has not delt with any repercussions. She is getting away with and having her cake and eating it too. If you are sleeping in separate bedrooms, that's not hurting her a bit because she's already getting it elsewhere. Your nonnegotiables mean nothing to her because their is virtually no collateral and no teeth to back them up. They are just words. I am now in the cohabitation phase: me and my sons; her and my sons; and she and I – not “us”. no, you are in the surrender phase where you are providing her a home, food, security, unlimited and unrestricted access to her children and her reputation and identity in the community and to your friends and family is being protected while she has fun with other dudes. It is a cool, sad relationship and one, although she says she loves me and wants to stay together, I have no idea where her heart is and what is still going on on the side. her words are as hollow as yours. She's just saying it with nothing to back it up. You are just kidding yourself when you say you don't know where her heart is. Her heart is where her vagina is. She remains in league with her toxic nursing friends – yes, along with Shari, there are several others that help/helped her and encouraged her to sleep around and have these affairs. While the decision was ultimately hers, the fact these individuals laugh about and revel in this activity and the hurt it causes myself and my sons, has left me dumbfounded. My wife claims it is just “girl talk” and since I am a man, I do not understand the close relationship women have and the fact she can talk about her feelings with other women is something men will never understand. you are doing too much talking and paying too much attention to what's saying. And you have a right to be pissed at them as coconspirators. But she was the one that sought them out for advice in assistance in her affairs. People are like water, they seek their own level. Her friends are a reflection of her. Interestingly, this seemed to have caused my wife the greatest grief in this entire episode: that I upset Shari and hurt her friendship and relationship send her to be with Shari. They deserve each other. (I still do not know the exact parameters, depth or possible intimacy of the relationship) with Shari. would it change anything if you did? So, I remain numb, at the crossroad. And despite suggestions to the contrary, I remain strong. I am not backed in to a corner, cowering and afraid. My focus is my sons and any action I take will be in their best interests. I just need to take inventory and assemble a plan – and that is why I have come here. People have been giving you good suggestions and insights. Have you been heeding their advice? You may not be cowering in the corner afraid to make a move but sitting in the comfy chair contemplating every move but not making any moves accomplishes the same thing. Again: thank you all. Ten characters
harrybrown Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Your sons need to see you handle this war and file for divorce. They need to know what is going on and that your wife needs to leave. Teach them how to handle someone treating the family so rotten, so that they do not allow someone to walk all over them. Have her leave. She is not a good mother. She is cheating on you and her family. I hope you wake up soon or at least start an open marriage. She has made it an open marriage. Where is your open part? 1
Author stabler Posted April 2, 2014 Author Posted April 2, 2014 Hi, Swinging is so far off my radar it exists - possibly - in another dimension. As well, a procession of other women into my life and home is nothing I would ever expose my sons to. I am stuck in the rut - or notion - of a faithful wife who I can trust, share a life with and be so intimately connected with, I need no one or nothing else. This is what I brought to the table. So, a line in the sand: I am going for a paternity test to confirm my youngest is mine. No matter the results, I will continue to love him and my eldest - who I am certain is mine - fiercely and without qualification. I have told my wife that I intend to take the test and she is dismissive, insisting I am wasting my time and he is my son. ****: 15 years, homes, holidays, anniversaries, births, deaths and I am now wondering if my son is mine. There are no words to describe the pain and disappointment. At this stage I was hoping to slide into empty-nest mode and enjoy the accomplishments of my sons. Now I am worried about STDs, running into other guys my wife has been nailing and wondering if my son(s) are mine ... absolute nightmare.
beach Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) When I was at a crossroad - swallow my pride and stay while someone who disrespected and disregarded me by lying and cheating Or End a 23 year marriage with my self respect and gain courage and strength - and show my kids by my actions that I deserve to be treated with honor The decision was easy. Love is about actions. And your wife has shown she doesn't understand what love is. Your kids will get older and understand exactly what Mom has been doing for years. You don't need to talk to them about her actions. Kids know. The lies. Without trust there's no foundation for any relationship to go well or grow at all. Your boys need you to show them a strong example of a man! Your wife has treated you terribly! It's time to show your boys that this is not ok! Anything less than divorcing her is rewarding her bad behavior. She gives us women a bad name. And her friends are just as bad. NONE of my friends would ever act that way...why? Because they are amazing human beings! Those women are trashy and mean. You deserve better! The sooner you rid your personal life of the trash - the sooner you can find someone who will add an amazing element to living. Get busy living. Not all women are like her. And make her move! You shouldn't be the one who leaves - she made it this way - it's one of the consequences of her bad behavior! Change the locks too! And move money into accounts with only your name or she will wipe out every acct - close charge cards too! Hurry! And there is no failure in respecting yourself! Edited April 2, 2014 by beach 5
drifter777 Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 Some of us understand the terror you feel when you think of breaking up your family. You have to believe me when I tell you that this fear is false. What you are doing is worse. Holding this mess of a marriage together at any cost will destroy your self-esteem. You have no options any longer. Exposing this whole mess by starting divorce proceedings is the only thing you can do. Just screw up your courage and tell your lawyer to file. Look your wife right in the eye and tell her you are done with her and her cheating ways. Life is hard and pretending you can somehow live with the status quo isn't going to make it any easier. You cannot protect your sons from the reality of life, but you can show them how to deal with it. Its time for you to do what you know you have to do. 3
oldshirt Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 You cannot protect your sons from the reality of life, but you can show them how to deal with it. Tell yourself this quote 1000 times a day and do what you have to do.
oldshirt Posted April 2, 2014 Posted April 2, 2014 When I was at a crossroad - swallow my pride and stay while someone who disrespected and disregarded me by lying and cheating Or End a 23 year marriage with my self respect and gain courage and strength - and show my kids by my actions that I deserve to be treated with honor The decision was easy. Love is about actions. And your wife has shown she doesn't understand what love is. Your kids will get older and understand exactly what Mom has been doing for years. You don't need to talk to them about her actions. Kids know. The lies. Without trust there's no foundation for any relationship to go well or grow at all. Your boys need you to show them a strong example of a man! Your wife has treated you terribly! It's time to show your boys that this is not ok! Anything less than divorcing her is rewarding her bad behavior. She gives us women a bad name. And her friends are just as bad. NONE of my friends would ever act that way...why? Because they are amazing human beings! Those women are trashy and mean. You deserve better! The sooner you rid your personal life of the trash - the sooner you can find someone who will add an amazing element to living. Get busy living. Not all women are like her. And make her move! You shouldn't be the one who leaves - she made it this way - it's one of the consequences of her bad behavior! Change the locks too! And move money into accounts with only your name or she will wipe out every acct - close charge cards too! Hurry! And there is no failure in respecting yourself! Yes to every sentence above. Especially the last one!!
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