stabler Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Hi all, Married to and faithful to my wife for 15+ years. Two sons, age 12 and 14. Discovered she was having an affair last October. Confronted her but denied and only admitted after I confronted her at a greasy hotel with the other guy. Despite assurances, she did not break off contact with the guy until I confronted him. Since then, have discovered four other affairs she has been involved in to varying degrees - not sure how many were also physical. I suspect there are others. Been tested - no STDs. Plan to be tested again. Immediately after D day (confirmation at hotel), I was both devastated - really, physically hurt – initially planned to leave the marriage and home but after legal advice saw how this would jeopardize my access to my children and house in divorce proceedings. I then committed my efforts saving my marriage. As the other affairs began to tumble out through electronic recon (I am a techie) and her active dating and sex life outside the marriage became apparent, I became fatigued. At first I notified the spouses of a couple – the wives were devastated but it ensured the guys’ relationships with my wife were definitely broken (a great strategy I must say). But it became an all-consuming process, hurting my business (I am self employed) and my happiness. Now I am at the tipping point: a dispassionate malaise where I really do not know where her heart is or if I am throwing good time after bad or do I want to go on with her or capable of going on with her ... The crappy thing is, I cannot appeal to any of her close friends for a fair read on the situation. She is a nurse and she worked with and conspired with her friends – many of whom I welcomed into our home for dinner, parties etc. – to facilitate the affairs and others affairs through lies, misdirection and sharing of resources – houses, vehicles etc. I tried counselling solo and with her but she lies during the sessions and only when I uncover more info on the other affairs does she sort of fess up. Any similar experiences? Any advice – besides me being a chump for staying with this person please – to move beyond? Currently zero trust – just discovered the fourth affair which dates back a year ago yesterday – but need to find some peace without hurting my sons. Thanks all.
Fluttershy Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 The only way true reconciliation can occur is if the WS commits 100%. you can't make her faithful. You say it is destroying you. It may be time to move on because she is not willing to fix what is broken inside of her. Or apparently do anything. And as long as she is broken, your marriage will be broken. 3
Iguanna Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I'm sorry, what ELSE does she have to do for you to realize it's time to kick her out of the house? I don't believe that the legal advice you got told you that her being the serial adulterer will cause you losing access to your kids. If that's the law there, I think it's unfair to no end. What you should do is gather all this evidence of her adulteries and go to a lawyer and file for divorce like .... yesterday. There is no way to save this marriage. Give her a big wake up call cause right now you are something way worse than her doormat. 1
Sub Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 initially planned to leave the marriage and home but after legal advice saw how this would jeopardize my access to my children and house in divorce proceedings. How is this possible if you can prove her A's? 1
oldshirt Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Rather break it all down piece by piece for you I'll streamline it and give you the bottom line - -You can't fix this. If you want a traditional monogamous marriage where your wife is honest and trustworthy and faithful to you, it can't be done with this gal. For whatever reason, she is incapable of honesty and faithfulness. She may not be a criminal and she may be a good nurse, May be a good mother and may even be a fairly good person be she fails completely at being a good wife. It's just not in her nomenclature. You can spend years and tens of thousands of dollars in therapy. You can expend immeasurable time and emotional energies watching over her and hacking her computers and phone etc to monitor her behaviors and you can turn yourself into your own private investigator and prison guard to try to keep other dcks out of her but in the end she is still going to be pulled towards getting some strange on the side. She will be miserable and feeling like a caged tiger in that environment and you will be miserable being her body guard even if you can pull off a few more years of her not screwing other guys. Or you can cut your losses and divorce amicably and move on with your life and in time meet someone that is capable of faithfulness. Children are harmed when they are subjected to abuse, addiction or neglect/abandonment. If both parents work together to provide safe and loving environments without defaming each other or using the kids to inflict pain on each other there is no reason the kids can't be happy, healthy and well adjusted being with two parents in separate homes. More harm will come to the kids in from being in an adulterous home than being from one. If you stay you will be teaching your boys to accept cheating and lying and manipulation from women. Do you want to model spineless and manipulated behavior to them or do you want to model standing up for yourself and not accepting abuse, lying and adultry from others????? 4
thummper Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I feel that you are attempting to fix something that's unfixable. You've said you don't want to leave her, which in her eyes means "you ain't gonna do nothin'." All I can see in your future is many more affairs and heartache for you. Nothing in what you have said indicates that your wife feels any remorse for anything she's done. She's hooked on this lifestyle, and I'm afraid there's nothing you can do to change it. You need good, competent legal advice. Don't let people tell you that you can't divorce because you'll lose everything. Isn't your self-respect and peace of mind worth anything to you? She's turned you into a classic example of a doormat. You, and your kids, deserve soooooooo much more! Good luck to you.
oldshirt Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 – but need to find some peace without hurting my sons. I'll say this again for emphasis. You will hurt your sons more by staying. You will either model spineless and manipulated behavior to them so that they grow up accepting lies and cheating and manipulation. Or they will grow up disrespecting some, thinking that they are all a bunch of lying, cheating shores that are only worth dumping a load into and they will be the guys that are pumping married women. If you want to model appropriate behavior for them you show them that lying, cheating exploitive behavior is not to be tolerated and carries consequences with it. They will always love their mother but in time they will understand that her bad behavior lead to the divorce and that you did what had to be done. ..and at the end of the day, being a man means doing what has to be done even though it is hard and difficult at the time. 2
sidney2718 Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I tend to agree with the previous posters. I gather that your wife has not given you any enlightenment on why so many affairs or, for that matter, any details of the affairs. Does she indicate that she wants to remain in the marriage? The more information we have the better advice you can be given. Otherwise we have to guess that your wife is unrepentant, unwilling to change her behavior, and not interested in keeping the marriage going. And of course if this is in fact correct, divorce quickly and as rapidly as possible. Your children know something is up and will understand what has happened. It will still be rough on them, but there is no choice. I hope I'm wrong and the facts better than I have guessed. 1
Buckeye2 Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I think that you have more than proven that your wife is who she is and it would be very difficult for her to change after so much water under the bridge. Not only is she unethical, she runs with an unethical crowd. You need to lookout for yourself and your sons. Cut your losses and move on.
harrybrown Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 File now, give her the divorce papers. How were you hurt physically when you confronted her and the OM? You should contact the police and get that in the records for your divorce. Start the 180, and help yourself. There is nothing there and her friends are toxic. Have you exposed far and wide to her family and your children? If you can, have her move out. She is toxic. You do not have a marriage that can be saved. Why would you want to save it? You can not trust her. She has proved to be your enemy and she does not care about you. 1
Author stabler Posted March 28, 2014 Author Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I asked her for a divorce in November and again in December and saw a lawyer about initiating divorce proceedings. She says she loves me. She says she wants the family to stay together. She wants me to give her another chance. But so much has happened with the additional info that continues percolating to the surface and her bizarre relationship with one of her nursing friends who helped her deceive me. In a number of recent Facebook messages she apologizes to her friend, Shari, for staying with me and with her family and tells Shari she is giving me and my sons "another chance." I have confronted my wife with all the information I have collected and continue to collect and she claims I am misreading everything. She confided in me last May that Shari, her nursing friend, who I have known for years, is a lesbian who has not yet come out. I asked my wife if she is also involved in a relationship with Shari. She said no. The truth is, my wife is great with my sons. I love and support my sons - they are fantastic athletes, students and respectful young men. I do not want to upset their life. They do not know about my wife's infidelities - although a counselor I saw suggested I tell them everything, right now. I am not a wimp or a doormat and can wipe the floor with any of the guys she is and or has been nailing (the hurt I wrote about previous was based on the feelings I experienced), but the inside of a jail cell would compromise my relationship with my sons. They have never even heard me raise my voice to my wife and I have instilled, from day one, respect and manners. While they are certainly aware of the troubles - my youngest was very curious about my suitcases and packing when I first intended to leave - I have kept this mostly under wraps. We live in on southern Vancouver Island and word travels so I must act with decorum. I guess what I am asking is for any insight or strategies on getting through the next six or seven years, keep the household together for my sons until they head off to college. I was considering a legal contract that would tie the estate to a fidelity clause but upon further review by a lawyer, I was told this would not be enforceable. Any unique coping skills to share? TBH: I never, ever imagined I would be writing in an online forum, seeking advice from strangers on keeping my marriage together with a wife I once considered my infallible partner who would never betray me. Edited March 28, 2014 by stabler
pteromom Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I love and support my sons - they are fantastic athletes, students and respectful young men. I do not want to upset their life. They do not know about my wife's infidelities - although a counselor I saw suggested I tell them everything, right now. That's horrible. There is no reason to hurt your sons needlessly. You say your wife is a good mom, so let her continue to be a good mom. However - she is a terrible wife! I guess what I am asking is for any insight or strategies on getting through the next six or seven years, keep the household together for my sons until they head off to college. You can't expect your wife to be faithful. Apparently she isn't capable! So: - Accept that she is unfaithful and ignore it. - Accept that she is unfaithful and propose an open marriage. That way you can date others without guilt. - Break up with her, but stay in the house as co-parents. I have known people who have done this successfully. 1
Zimber Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 How do you feel about swinging? Honestly, that's the only suggestion that I could make that might bring you some sort of ... satisfaction. Whew, I feel sorry for you OP. That seriously sucks. I couldn't take it. You are much stronger than I! Z
GorillaTheater Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 One question I'd have for your lawyer is at what age do the kids get to have some say as to who they want to live with. Around here, it's 12 I think. 1
DasPope Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 This is extremely difficult. When I discovered my WS at least she cleanly gave full disclosure. I can fully understand how you must have zero trust. My advice is that in order to go forward you must confront your wife in therapy about the lies she has told in previous sessions. Only with commitment on both sides can there be reconciliation. 1
oldshirt Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I asked her for a divorce in November and again in December and saw a lawyer about initiating divorce proceedings. She says she loves me. She says she wants the family to stay together. She wants me to give her another chance. what she wants is the comforts of living in the home and living with the kids fulltime, but has no love, desire or respect for you. She wants you to provide comfort and resources but wants her sex and lovens from other people. You can't make her love or desire you any more but you can decide whether you will provide her a home and resources while she screws other people. But so much has happened with the additional info that continues percolating to the surface and her bizarre relationship with one of her nursing friends who helped her deceive me. In a number of recent Facebook messages she apologizes to her friend, Shari, for staying with me and with her family and tells Shari she is giving me and my sons "another chance." that right there would have me tossing her crap out the front door into the street I have confronted my wife with all the information I have collected and continue to collect and she claims I am misreading everything. look up the terms gaslighting and rugsweeping. They are textbook tactics of unrepentant cheaters She confided in me last May that Shari, her nursing friend, who I have known for years, is a lesbian who has not yet come out. I asked my wife if she is also involved in a relationship with Shari. She said no. can you believe a stinking word that comes out of her mouth any more? The truth is, my wife is great with my sons. I love and support my sons - they are fantastic athletes, students and respectful young men. I do not want to upset their life. she is upsetting their life through her bad behavior. She is the bad guy here. They do not know about my wife's infidelities - although a counselor I saw suggested I tell them everything, right now. they don't need to know details but the truth will always come out eventually. I am not a wimp or a doormat and can wipe the floor with any of the guys she is and or has been nailing (the hurt I wrote about previous was based on the feelings I experienced), but the inside of a jail cell would compromise my relationship with my sons. this isn't about physical fighting ability. It's about standing up for yourself and doing the right thing. If the world heavyweight boxing champion were to allow himself to be walked on and mistreated and manipulated by his wife, that would be wimpy behavior no matter how many guys he could mop the floor with in the ring. We live in on southern Vancouver Island and word travels so I must act with decorum. she's sure living up to those decorum rules huh? So you are going to let her disrespect you and make a mockery of your home and marriage so the neighbors don't raise an eyebrow?? That really is wimpy. But seriously though, no-one is suggesting you throw poop at her like a pissed off Baboon. Just remove her from your home, payroll and support. I guess what I am asking is for any insight or strategies on getting through the next six or seven years, keep the household together for my sons until they head off to college. why? Serious question- why? Why do you think they will be harmed if you divorce her? They will still have two loving and supportive parents raising them. It would just be from two different houses. These aren't babies that need 24 hr hands on care for every single one of their needs. These are subadults that can adapt to a different housing situation and different family structure. I was considering a legal contract that would tie the estate to a fidelity clause but upon further review by a lawyer, I was told this would not be enforceable. and is dumb. She already stood in front of a church in front of all your friends and family and vowed to be faithful then signed legal documents of marriage and you see how well she honored that Any unique coping skills to share? Tara maiden did a good job of explaining your options. You can - - ignore it and live with it (which is the current path you are on) - divorce her and move on with your life and coparents from two different houses. - accept it and maintain an open marriage where both of you come and go as you please. The problem you are going to run into there though is men are perfectly happy to line up down the street to bang a married woman in an open marriage. Women not so much. An open marriage will increase her opportunities but hamstring yours. It's ironic and counterintuitive but You'd actually stand a better chance with other women by lying to them and telling them you are cheating without your wife's knowledge or blessing than you would in an open marriage where it was ok. TBH: I never, ever imagined I would be writing in an online forum, seeking advice from strangers on keeping my marriage together with a wife I once considered my infallible partner who would never betray me. i don't mean to sound as cold as this is going to come off but one of the main things you need to do is realise that the life and marriage you wanted and that you thought you had and thought you were going to have is over. She is not on the same page with you. Maybe she was at one time and maybe she never was, but what is certain now is she isn't now and probably isn't capable of ever being. This is the dawn of a new day and a different life before you. You can either lay down and take whatever she dishes out to you because you don't want to rock the boat. Or you stand up for youself and do what is right for you and your children even though it will disrupt your regular daily life and be different than what you had originally planned. My responses are above. 3
oldshirt Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 .....oops my bad, I meant PTEROMOM did a good job of laying out your options. Sorry 'Mom. 1
janedoe67 Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 You cannot fix a serial cheater. They either choose to do the hard, intense, changing work, or they don't. Her crap is NOT about you. She has an issue that SHE has to address. This is her go-to coping mechanism, and it is devastating. It is time for am unflinching line in the sand. 3
bubbaganoosh Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 Friend. If it means dividing everything up and living a life with a clear mind rather than waking up everyday wondering who her next flavor of the month is going to be. Divorce isn't the end of the world. It could be if you want to make it that way but in most cases, it's a second chance to start over and find a bit of happiness. Stop looking at it like a glass that's half empty but one that's half full. You got a chance to move on for good reason. You can still be a great dad for your kids and they will not forget who their dad is.
aliveagain Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 Her words mean sh*t and her actions so far scream that you are the only one in this marriage. First thing you need to do is get rid of her friends that facilitated her serial cheating. If any of her cheating was job related she needs to change jobs. Other than being caught and exposed, what's different that would make you believe things are going to change, not her word I hope? If I were in your position I would lawyer up, start the process and let her prove by her actions that she deserved another chance, if not why waste anymore time? There are so many amazing women living on the Island, you have to be able to do better than being her fall back guy, you deserve better. You can still be an amazing father, you just don't need her cheating a$$ interfering with that.
jnel921 Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 I'm sorry but your WW doesn't respect you or your M. You should leave her. You are fighting for your M alone. R takes two willing people and a remorseful spouse. Nowhere did you write that your WW was sorry. You deserve better. Some cheaters never learn and hurt deeper than we could ever imagine. You are making excuses as to why its cheaper to stay and access your kids. If that is the case ask her to leave. Good luck to you.
Bryanp Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 I am afraid that you are the one in the fog. I guess you will just have to get an STD from your wife to wake you from your stupor. You judge a person by their actions and not by their words and her actions speak volumes. She has absolutely no respect for you whatsoever and know that you are total doormat that will forgive for screwing different men whenever she wants. IF YOU DO NOT RESPECT YOURSELF THEN WHO WILL?
Artie Lang Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 to put it bluntly, you need to kick her to the curb. honestly, it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself into staying with her despite the callous way she has disrespected you and your marriage. have you even exposed her infidelity or just rugswept, because that's exactly what it sounds like you're doing? 3
Zenstudent Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 Stabler; I'll try to go against the stream here, it's what I often do. In essence I agree with the others that it seems that divorce is the best solution to this, but I also know that the difference between you and anonymous internet posters is the love that you feel for your wife. We don't love her and don't have a history with her, you do. So, is there another way of dealing with this? Your story is in some ways similar to mine. Three years ago I discovered that my wife was in a LTA with a friend of the house, she also admitted a ONS 20 years ago, which technically makes her a serial cheater. The thing about serial cheating is, that unless there are consequences, it's still "just" one wrong decission to cheat. Once discovered, a serial cheater must deal with the situation and face consequences like anyone else. You say yourself that it's OK to have 5-6 years more with her untill you're emty-nesters, so you may try my path. It's not perfect, but it works at the moment. You need a few things to get started, I'll describe them briefly. Ensure that you take care of yourself, eat healthy, exercise and get enough sleep.Get into your head and heart, internalize and understand that your wife is not who you thought she is. Don't convince yourself that she just slipped or made a small mistake. Her core beliefs and values are very different from yours. Very important.Accept this new reality for what it is, stop wishing it would be different. It isn't, it's your life. Not what you thought it was, wished it was or hoped it was, but it is exactly what it is. So you need to deal with this.Understand that you CAN live without her. There is a life out there for you even if you're not with her anymore. If it helps any, imagine that she died today, would you be able to survive. It helped me in this regard, I was very co-dependent. Detach from her, you'll see things more clearly. Detach.Can you live with her like this? Then as ie. Oldshirt suggested, open marriage or swinging may be the path for you. I suggested it to my wife, since I couldn't trust her or make her change. It turned out she couldn't stand the thought of me with other women, which made the next step possible.Make her talk about what kind of life, marriage and future she would like to have. See if you're even compatible. Sometimes you need to revisit this when the years has gone by and you both have changed. She may even be prepared to leave you, but just didn't have the guts to do so.This is the most important action that you MUST take. Hand her your NUTS, which in this case isn't your balls, but instead your non-negotiable and unalterable terms for you to be with her. These are your hard boundaries. Think very hard about these, you need to mean them and be able to enforce them. Kick her out if she crosses them just one time. I suggest that one of them is "No more lies and secrets". It worked wonders for me, my wife's behaviour changed from one day to the next. Consider to demand that her toxic friend gets dumped, this may be a tough one, so think it through carefully. The friend may be an enabler and make your wife resume her activities, but it's also a possibility that your wife chooses her friend before you, prepare yourself and get ready for that scenario. Now, your wife may come around when she realizes that choices have consequences. And she may not, it may end in divorce anyway. But your outlook and ability to deal with the fallout will, in my experience, improve if you follow these steps. The downside, if there is any, is that you can't stay detached forever if you wanna grow old with her. That's where I am at the moment, I need to open up again let her in, and it's hard to do when you're in self protection mode. But Rome wasn't build in one day, and my wife need to be patient and keep up the work in order to keep me around. All the above may not work because your wife seems too deep in and has lost all respect for you. You need to regain it - boundaries and consequences, no wishy washy stuff. Let us know where you are in your thoughts so we can provide the support that you need. Take care. 2
oldshirt Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 Ensure that you take care of yourself, eat healthy, exercise and get enough sleep. Yes. Definitely this. Get into your head and heart, internalize and understand that your wife is not who you thought she is. Don't convince yourself that she just slipped or made a small mistake. Her core beliefs and values are very different from yours. Very important. Also very correct. Accept this new reality for what it is, stop wishing it would be different. It isn't, it's your life. Not what you thought it was, wished it was or hoped it was, but it is exactly what it is. So you need to deal with this. Very correct too. Understand that you CAN live without her. There is a life out there for you even if you're not with her anymore. If it helps any, imagine that she died today, would you be able to survive. It helped me in this regard, I was very co-dependent. Detach from her, you'll see things more clearly. Detach. This is spot on. This IS a death in a way. It is the death of what you thought your marriage would be. What you thought your marriage was going to be is dead and gone and never will be again. You go through all the same stages of grief as you would if someone had died. They'll be denial (which you are clearly in now) , anger, bargaining, sadness and ultimately acceptance and moving on. You need to start thinking of your wife as basically dead and do what you would do if she had been killed in a car accident instead. Her body may be alive but she is essentially dead to you as a wife. The big important difference that you need to keep in mind though is she is still alive and still able to be a mother and coparent to your children. She will still be able to have them at least half time so this will give half of your time to be with them and do things with them and then you will also have half of your time to yourself to do things that you want to do and things that you will enjoy on your own such as hobbies, any classes you've been interested in, meeting and dating other women etc. You will have 50% of your time where you can move on with your life and begin moving forward with the rest of your life. Can you live with her like this? Then as ie. Oldshirt suggested, open marriage or swinging may be the path for you. As a swinger myself, I guarantee you swinging won't work at all for you. Swinging requires an extraordinary degree of respect, compassion, communication and trust. She blew all of those things a long time ago. She can't even be trusted not to screw guys you don't approve of when she goes to work. How are you going to trust her to follow the rules when you are at a house party with a couple dozen people slipping into rooms and having an orgy in the living room? Open marriage is an option but unless you already have some gal that you are banging on the side, this probably won't work well for you either. Open marriages greatly favor women. Men are more than happy to bang a married woman in an open marriage. Women on the other hand are quite hesitant to become involved with men with a hallpass. Men are actually more successful if they pretend to be cheating. messed up I know but still the reality. In this case it wouldn't really be much like a standard open marriage but more like two people living completely separate lives but deferring divorce until the kids are older. Again this arraignment benifits women more than men as they have much easier access to people willing to become involved with someone still married and under the same roof with their spouse. For men to move on and find someone else, it's much easier as a single man than a married one with a wife under the same roof. Make her talk about what kind of life, marriage and future she would like to have. See if you're even compatible. Sometimes you need to revisit this when the years has gone by and you both have changed. She may even be prepared to leave you, but just didn't have the guts to do so. I would agree with this if she had only had a little office flirting get carried away or maybe had a little touchy-feely in a back room at the office Christmas party. In this case she is too far gone and the reconciliation ship has long since left the dock and disappeared beyond the horizon. Whatever kind of marriage and what kind of life she wants is irrelevant now because she has already established a completely different lifestyle than what he would want. In this case I don't think it is even about her wanting to leave. She could've easily walked away years ago. She wants her cake and wants to eat it too. She wants the comfort, safety and security and resources of a husband but wants to bang other people for fun and excitement. She's getting her material and financial needs met by a husband but getting her sexual and romantic needs met elsewhere. She has no motive or need to leave. She has it made now. This is the most important action that you MUST take. Hand her your NUTS, which in this case isn't your balls, but instead your non-negotiable and unalterable terms for you to be with her. These are your hard boundaries. Think very hard about these, you need to mean them and be able to enforce them. Kick her out if she crosses them just one time. I suggest that one of them is "No more lies and secrets". It worked wonders for me, my wife's behaviour changed from one day to the next. Consider to demand that her toxic friend gets dumped, this may be a tough one, so think it through carefully. The friend may be an enabler and make your wife resume her activities, but it's also a possibility that your wife chooses her friend before you, prepare yourself and get ready for that scenario. Again, I think this situation is way past all of this. This would work if it were her getting attracted to someone in the office and having a little office grab-assing getting a little inappropriate. She has been having multiple, fully developed affairs and has no remorse, feels no accountability and feels fully justified in doing so. This is all way too little too late. All the above may not work because your wife seems too deep in and has lost all respect for you. You need to regain it - boundaries and consequences, no wishy washy stuff. She may or may not regain some respect for him after the divorce. Let us know where you are in your thoughts so we can provide the support that you need. Take care. some good points above but much is probably too little too late.
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