Chocolat Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 Ahhh, are you saying that boyfriend ≠ barrier? I think the OP is saying that he's without barriers, but she doesn't seem clear on her own.
Author RonaldS Posted March 25, 2014 Author Posted March 25, 2014 Ahhh, are you saying that boyfriend ≠ barrier? I was referring to me no longer being married. But also, by comparison, a boyfriend is more of an inconvenience than a barrier. Not that I'm trying to ruin a relationship, but from what I've learned from a life time of studying relationships, one really good way to tell that you don't have a great relationship with somebody is if the other person is out making out with another guy. That's typically a little bit of a red flag. In other words, who really knows what their relationship status is. For a few years, my relationship status was 'married', but I was pretty unhappy.
Standard-Fare Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 But remember that it's always dicey to be involved in ANY way in the collapse of someone else's relationship, even if you're just on the fringes. You'd want that all to take care of itself naturally without being associated it or playing any role in the outcome. For example, if she considered you any sort of factor for ending her current relationship, that would just put a heap of pressure on anything you pursued with her in the future. (i.e. "I turned my life around for you!") Of course this is getting way ahead of the current situation.
Author RonaldS Posted March 25, 2014 Author Posted March 25, 2014 But remember that it's always dicey to be involved in ANY way in the collapse of someone else's relationship, even if you're just on the fringes. You'd want that all to take care of itself naturally without being associated it or playing any role in the outcome. For example, if she considered you any sort of factor for ending her current relationship, that would just put a heap of pressure on anything you pursued with her in the future. (i.e. "I turned my life around for you!") Of course this is getting way ahead of the current situation. Yeah, we agreed that we would be friends and hang out as friends and that whatever, if anything, needs to get sorted out will get sorted out. I was surprised how honest and candid she was in our conversation. Typically people, especially women, tend to hide true feelings in these situations. What gain was there for her to be so candid and open if there is another relationship involved? Why not just leave it at 'I'm seeing somebody'? I think that's the most surprising thing for me as well as the most intriguing thing, too.
GemmaUK Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 I was surprised how honest and candid she was in our conversation. Typically people, especially women, tend to hide true feelings in these situations. What gain was there for her to be so candid and open if there is another relationship involved? Why not just leave it at 'I'm seeing somebody'? I think that's the most surprising thing for me as well as the most intriguing thing, too. She has nothing to lose in being honest with you and letting you know you could be/become her back up plan whilst also letting you know (without having to state it) that you can't overstep the mark (eg as has happened since you met - she cannot always pick up the phone) by expecting much contact. Did she say much about her partner? 1
Author RonaldS Posted March 25, 2014 Author Posted March 25, 2014 She has nothing to lose in being honest with you and letting you know you could be/become her back up plan whilst also letting you know (without having to state it) that you can't overstep the mark (eg as has happened since you met - she cannot always pick up the phone) by expecting much contact. Did she say much about her partner? She didn't say a single word about him. I told her I was casually hanging out with a girl but nothing that meant anything, and she asked some questions about her. But she said nothing about her guy.
GemmaUK Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 She didn't say a single word about him. I told her I was casually hanging out with a girl but nothing that meant anything, and she asked some questions about her. But she said nothing about her guy. That must have seemed pretty strange. Certainly makes me wonder whether she is being honest that she isn't happy with him. It's pretty natural for people to air things given a welcoming opportunity such as that, especially when the other person knows something of the situation. I'm almost wondering whether he doesn't exist and could be an excuse. I think I'm still at the 'give a wide berth' stage but it would be wider knowing that she hadn't said anything about him. That isn't natural behaviour.
Trimmer Posted March 25, 2014 Posted March 25, 2014 I was referring to me no longer being married. Dude, I totally got that; I was making a point. But also, by comparison, a boyfriend is more of an inconvenience than a barrier. Not that I'm trying to ruin a relationship, but from what I've learned from a life time of studying relationships, one really good way to tell that you don't have a great relationship with somebody is if the other person is out making out with another guy. That's typically a little bit of a red flag. OK, so you spent the first 80% of this thread trying to interpret what her behavior tells you about what kind of person she is and what she's thinking. And now once you find she's got a boyfriend, you've immediately switched your attention to trying to interpret what her behavior tells you about the status of her relationship. I think you should go back to asking "what does this tell me about her?" You talked about that "little bit of a red flag" in the context of their relationship. I think you should consider whether her behavior might be a little bit of a red flag in the context of a potential relationship with you. I was surprised how honest and candid she was in our conversation. Typically people, especially women, tend to hide true feelings in these situations. What gain was there for her to be so candid and open if there is another relationship involved? Why not just leave it at 'I'm seeing somebody'? First of all, I think a person in this situation tends to hide their true feelings to the degree that it serves their purposes. For example, you think she has not hidden her true feelings from you; I bet you she is hiding her true feelings from her boyfriend. Because each of those behaviors serves her current purposes: (a) figuring out what to do about her current relationship without raising a lot of uncomfortable attention, and (b) lining you up as her jumping-off "next" person, which actually happens to present itself as a possible solution to (a), doesn't it? She didn't say a single word about him. But waaaaaait.... You said she was being honest and candid, didn't you? But then I said "to the degree that it serves her purposes." And I think that being honest and candid with you about her current relationship doesn't advance purpose (b) above. So, is that really being honest and candid? 2
Author RonaldS Posted March 25, 2014 Author Posted March 25, 2014 Dude, I totally got that; I was making a point. OK, so you spent the first 80% of this thread trying to interpret what her behavior tells you about what kind of person she is and what she's thinking. And now once you find she's got a boyfriend, you've immediately switched your attention to trying to interpret what her behavior tells you about the status of her relationship. I think you should go back to asking "what does this tell me about her?" You talked about that "little bit of a red flag" in the context of their relationship. I think you should consider whether her behavior might be a little bit of a red flag in the context of a potential relationship with you. First of all, I think a person in this situation tends to hide their true feelings to the degree that it serves their purposes. For example, you think she has not hidden her true feelings from you; I bet you she is hiding her true feelings from her boyfriend. Because each of those behaviors serves her current purposes: (a) figuring out what to do about her current relationship without raising a lot of uncomfortable attention, and (b) lining you up as her jumping-off "next" person, which actually happens to present itself as a possible solution to (a), doesn't it? But waaaaaait.... You said she was being honest and candid, didn't you? But then I said "to the degree that it serves her purposes." And I think that being honest and candid with you about her current relationship doesn't advance purpose (b) above. So, is that really being honest and candid? I don't disagree with anything you wrote really. To be clear, while I started this thread and have been adding a lot of thoughts to it, I'm not really emotionally invested in this thing. I'm intrigued, and interested, but not invested. If I never spoke to her again, oh well. I'm divorced, I have young kids, I live in a huge city full of women. I'm stating this just so people don't think I'm sitting around hoping and praying for this magical thing to happen. Really, I'm just curious....mainly because we did and do have a strong connection, and that's rare. It's at least worth looking at a little. I don't have any reason to doubt she's with somebody. She's beautiful, intelligent and successful, but more than that, there were some things previous to us meeting up that made me think she might be seeing somebody. She probably didn't say much about him because there wasn't much to say. The conversation wasn't a 'tell me about your partner' kind of conversation. We were talking about us, and the whole conversation was about us. Who really knows why he wasn't more of a topic....I just think we were caught up in talking about things we felt. I don't know what her motives are. Whatever thing she has going on with whatever other person is her thing, and is her thing to deal with. I don't judge these things too harshly. I've been there, and the reality of a relationship may come up short of what you want from a relationship, and I just let that person figure that stuff out on their own. Life is crazy and things change.
Author RonaldS Posted March 25, 2014 Author Posted March 25, 2014 That must have seemed pretty strange. Certainly makes me wonder whether she is being honest that she isn't happy with him. It's pretty natural for people to air things given a welcoming opportunity such as that, especially when the other person knows something of the situation. I'm almost wondering whether he doesn't exist and could be an excuse. I think I'm still at the 'give a wide berth' stage but it would be wider knowing that she hadn't said anything about him. That isn't natural behaviour. I don't know how to interpret her lack of dialogue on the other guy. Maybe her thoughts are not net-negative or net-positive. Maybe she was just with him and it was good enough and there was no reason for her to really examine her relationship. Now, it seems that maybe there is. That's up to her to do, if she feels inclined. At the end of the day, I do like this girl. But whatever happens, happens. I had always wondered about things I thought I had picked up from her in the past, and she confirmed those things. Maybe that's good enough.
Author RonaldS Posted March 29, 2014 Author Posted March 29, 2014 Update- Hung out again last night. Lot of great conversation, had fun, very close and intimate. It was really nice, and it felt great to be around her. But her relationship is not going anywhere. I'm fine with that. Whatever. If she wants to walk that tightrope and deal with whatever she has on her end and wrangle psychologically with herself, and I get somebody that I have a great connection and closeness with who I can occasionally hang out with and then go about my normal life when we're not together, that's fine with me. I'm not looking for some grandiose, idealistic relationship. Is this a little unscrupulous? Probably. But we're adults, and rather than screw a whole bunch of things up in some ideological pursuit to satisfy societal expectations on relationships, we just decided to spend the time together that we can, enjoy it, and not try to make it into something it shouldn't, and probably can't, be. Works for me.
Trimmer Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 My less judgmental response: It sounds like you are still trying to convince yourself... My more judgmental response (more toward her than you, really): So basically you're saying that she has an existing relationship which is ill-defined, not particularly moving forward, and to which she doesn't have to really be fully present or committed. And now she has two! Bottom line, though: as long as it works for you. I do have to wonder if her existing "boyfriend" will ever learn about you....
Standard-Fare Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Did anything physical happen between you guys on the second meetup? Assuming your answer to that is no: I actually think your attitude sounds fairly reasonable. Sounds like you're wisely not investing too much into this, but at the same time, keeping an open mind. As far as being "unscrupulous," I think at this point the burden of that falls on her shoulders. And yes, she's being a little shady. With both you AND her boyfriend. As long as you're aware of that, and stay cautious of it...
Author RonaldS Posted March 30, 2014 Author Posted March 30, 2014 Did anything physical happen between you guys on the second meetup? Assuming your answer to that is no: I actually think your attitude sounds fairly reasonable. Sounds like you're wisely not investing too much into this, but at the same time, keeping an open mind. As far as being "unscrupulous," I think at this point the burden of that falls on her shoulders. And yes, she's being a little shady. With both you AND her boyfriend. As long as you're aware of that, and stay cautious of it... Oh yeah....it was WAY intimate. But we kept it PG-rated. Apparently, her boyfriend is currently working in another country, and the conversation between them is whether he will move back here, or she will move there. None of that is my problem, of course. If she wants a fill-in, that's fine with me. I won't invest anything in it, but I will enjoy the connection and friendship (we do have a good time together) in a detached manner. This will be like watching a good movie on cable on a Sunday afternoon. It will be enjoyable to watch, but if you fall asleep and miss the last half of it, oh well.
Standard-Fare Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Oh yeah....it was WAY intimate. But we kept it PG-rated. OK, I don't really know what that means, but I guess that she is actively cheating on her boyfriend, even if it's not actual sex. Again, this chick is being shady. Obviously realize that she's telling her boyfriend (who she presumably loves or recently loved) completely different things than she's telling you. And don't for a moment assume you're the one getting the "more truthful" version. Nothing's black and white, so it's not worth judging her, but at the same time you already know you can't fully trust her. This will be like watching a good movie on cable on a Sunday afternoon. It will be enjoyable to watch, but if you fall asleep and miss the last half of it, oh well. I'm sure it feels all light and carefree now, but these things always progress. Just keep your head on straight.
Author RonaldS Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 OK, I don't really know what that means, but I guess that she is actively cheating on her boyfriend, even if it's not actual sex. Again, this chick is being shady. Obviously realize that she's telling her boyfriend (who she presumably loves or recently loved) completely different things than she's telling you. And don't for a moment assume you're the one getting the "more truthful" version. Nothing's black and white, so it's not worth judging her, but at the same time you already know you can't fully trust her. I'm sure it feels all light and carefree now, but these things always progress. Just keep your head on straight. It's hard for me to describe how I feel about this, because the smart move is to be completely detached and not take any of it seriously. I understand that intellectually. That being said, a big reason that it's meaningful and enjoyable is the pre-existing relationship and closeness. So, I have to manage my emotional investment. And I understand that complications are on the horizon, in some way, shape or form. It's the nature of any relationship, but especially something as 'manufactured' as this. I'm not sure how much her honesty is a factor in this for me. How does her honesty/dishonesty impact me? I'm not relying on her for anything, so a 'more truthful' version of what's going on doesn't really affect me. It's not like I really need to trust her, because I won't put myself in a position to really be hurt by anything. It's just crazy to me how this has twisted and turned all over the place. A month ago, we hadn't spoken to each other in 8 years. Now we have a soap opera.
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