Who pays and for how long?

[nomadic_butterfly]

How can I bring this up indirectly? Should I just recommend dive places to hang out?

 

I've already stressed ten trillion times to find out HER VALUES and PERSPECTIVES and EXPERIENCES!!! This is what shapes how she looks at things.

 

Even looking at answers from this board will tell you many people have very different experiences and expectations. Clearly you need to be up front. I personally am a straight shooter. It's more about delivery than even content. Tactfully gauge her mentality.

 

If you don't want to pay past the first few dates then don't. But you can avoid awkwardness by asking questions like I have already said, "what is the role of a man and woman in a relationship?" This question has never failed me but I don't know how astute you are.

 

Just flat out ask if in her previous relationships what were the dynamics. What she thinks about finances. You are straddling the fence and being way too coy. Man up and just get straight to it. We don't know HER; we don't know HER experiences. We don't know YOU. We don't know YOUR experiences!!

 

Is this your first time dating?? How have your previous relationships worked? I think people make things much harder than they truly have to be. You are in control of your own life therefore you can dictate the terms of a potential and/or ongoing relationship. Most people I know take turns. Some people more on the religious side such as myself have dated guys older, debt free and more financially secure so they paid 90% of the time.

 

We cannot dictate how you govern your life. Only YOU CAN. Why do people find communication so hard??

Edited March 14, 2014 by nomadic_butterfly

[babycakees]

That's pretty much a b.s. Response. So dating means the man foots the bill all the time?

 

 

No. Not at all. But I've dated some guys who refused to let me pay and then never wanted to ever go out and do anything. You should not be dating if you are gonna whine it costs money.

[Els]

I don't remember the name, and I don't feel it's my job to do the research. The amazing places that stand out are mostly ethnic restaurants. I've had INCREDIBLE Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian and other ethnic food in NYC for very low prices. And these are nice (but not ritzy) places with some ambiance, amazing food, and great service.

 

Yes. Our standard 'fun night out' is less than $50 total. $15 per person can get you a pretty fantastic authentic meal at a Vietnamese, Japanese, etc restaurant, and $10 per person later for either drinks, dessert, or movie.

 

We have been to restaurants where the price tag was more than $100 p/p, but only as a special occasion thing. IMO if someone has the money and wants to splurge on those, all well and good. But anyone who says he CAN'T build a happy relationship without the need for constant $100 dates probably has bigger issues that he needs to look into.

[Ruby Slippers]

But anyone who says he CAN'T build a happy relationship without the need for constant $100 dates probably has bigger issues that he needs to look into.

Amen! The magic word is ego.

[normal person]

I don't remember the name, and I don't feel it's my job to do the research.

 

Not that it's relevant as I don't really care and it's beside the original point, but typically if you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.

 

I'm sure that to your average trendy NYC guy or gal, that's not cool enough for a proper date. But that's a choice to go with the herd.

 

I bet you a million dollars that the coolest and most interesting women would LOVE to be taken somewhere DIFFERENT than the standard see-and-be-seen places, with the same tired conversations, outfits, responses.

 

But if you want the cookie cutter "romance" with the cookie cutter girl with the standard entry fee, that's your business.

 

Ruby Slippers, if you're posing your statement at me, you're making an awful lot of assumptions about someone you don't know. If not, this is still worth saying: I think this issue is more complex than it's been made out to be. Implying that girls who expect men to take them out, show them a nice time at a decent restaurant, and invest in the interaction are "cookie cutter" really seems like an erroneous statement -- men paying is a widely accepted practice in this day and age. If you personally don't adhere to it steadfast, that's fine. But most women do and it's naive of you (and counterproductive to men) to think otherwise. Here's the thing: I think the expectation for a man to spend money and pay for everything is more of a cultural quirk than an individual woman's character flaw. It's culturally engrained.

 

This is verbatim what one girl said to me at a hole in the wall, outside the box Mexican/French fusion cantina in Brooklyn (which costed $75): "It must be so tough being a guy! You can't cry, you have to pay for everything..." It's a cultural issue, not a personal one. Admittedly this is anecdotal.

 

I speak from experience: In the past year I've been out with at least a dozen girls who are smart, lovely, funny, engaging, highly successful, and passionate about what they do with great careers in healthcare, entertainment, law, and education. Each bringing something different to the table and enlightening me in a different way. Most of them don't offer to pay anything. But I've never felt that their lack of payment compromises their personality or discredits who they are, what they do, or the interaction we just had. I just it accept it as a cultural rule, they obviously have too, albeit one beneficial to them. I bet if you met them you'd redact your "cookie cutter" and '"romance'" sentiments pretty quickly.

 

The point being it's very convenient for a woman to sit back and say "you shouldn't date those girls" because nothing's at stake for her in saying so. If a man writes off girls by considering their expectation of a nice, free dinner an outright offense, he'll never meet anyone. If a guy wants to play, he likely has to play by the girls' rules. Coming back to the OPs original topic, men just have to suck it up and pay. Speaking candidly, I agree that it'd be great if women always paid half their way and that a genuine offer is a wonderful gesture. But I'm also well aware that it's futile to hold your breath and wait for it...and nothing good can come of complaining about it. And just because she doesn't offer to pay doesn't mean she's not worth seeing.

Edited March 14, 2014 by normal person

[Ruby Slippers]

normal person, you have melted me

 

Coming back to the OPs original topic, men just have to suck it up and pay.

I think that's what it all boils down to. Whether you're going on $10 dates or $10,000 dates, it's the truth.

 

Just like women have to suck it up and give birth to the babies. (After having seen some birth videos, it's hard to say which is the larger burden - or blessing?)

 

I offer to chip in because I've learned not to take anything for granted. But in practice, it's just a courtesy, because no man has ever accepted my offer to pay on a date, and it feels right that they don't.

 

The one place where men are comfortable with it is in private, such as when ordering takeout, where his image/reputation as a man is not called into question because he did not do his manly duty of paying.

 

Tradition has its place. Thousands of years of human history have something to say about men, women, and our differences.

[kiss_andmakeup]

My last boyfriend didn't take me to fancy restaurants until we were exclusive and discussing long-term plans. And I preferred it that way. All of our early dates were $50 or less, in the big city of Chicago, and we had a blast every time.

 

This. I just don't understand these guys going out for $150 first, second, or third dates. What?? You don't even know this person. Stop trying so hard. And if you need to try that hard in order to make her like you, then do you really want her anyways?

 

My first few dates with my partner were 1) beers at a pub ($30 max incl. tip), 2) dinner at a nice but inexpensive restaurant ($60 max) followed by walking around downtown and getting ice cream, 3) ordering a pizza, picking up a 6-pack and watching a hockey game, 4) a matinee movie ($10) followed by sandwiches at a deli ($15).

 

I'll throw in just for the record that I offered to pay my share on every one.

 

Now that we've been together for three years and are engaged, he treats me to a really nice, expensive dinner out maybe once or twice a month. But that sh*t did NOT happen on date 3. No way. And I would have felt flat-out uncomfortable if it had.

[avoforastig]

This. I just don't understand these guys going out for $150 first, second, or third dates. What?? You don't even know this person. Stop trying so hard. And if you need to try that hard in order to make her like you, then do you really want her anyways?

 

My first few dates with my partner were 1) beers at a pub ($30 max incl. tip), 2) dinner at a nice but inexpensive restaurant ($60 max) followed by walking around downtown and getting ice cream, 3) ordering a pizza, picking up a 6-pack and watching a hockey game, 4) a matinee movie ($10) followed by sandwiches at a deli ($15).

 

I'll throw in just for the record that I offered to pay my share on every one.

 

Now that we've been together for three years and are engaged, he treats me to a really nice, expensive dinner out maybe once or twice a month. But that sh*t did NOT happen on date 3. No way. And I would have felt flat-out uncomfortable if it had.

 

If you refer to my cost breakdown, I think you'll see that even a mediocre date can be expensive in a rat race city. Business owners have to pay rent too. That being said, there are some cheaper date options for sure, they just don't always fit into the logistics of an evening weekend date.

[normal person]

If you refer to my cost breakdown, I think you'll see that even a mediocre date can be expensive in a rat race city. Business owners have to pay rent too. That being said, there are some cheaper date options for sure, they just don't always fit into the logistics of an evening weekend date.

 

This is worth reiterating. People who skim the thread think anyone who spends $100 is "trying too hard" or being flashy with money. That's not at all the case. In NYC and surrounding areas, that's the cost of an average night out at an average restaurant.

 

That being said it's honestly a little disconcerting to feel expected to take a girl out to a decent place and pay for everything only to get lambasted for paying too much. If she's that bothered or concerned with your finances or frugality, she could always pay her own way.

 

Imagine this scenario:

[Waiter approaches a couple who are engaged in conversation. They've already had an appetizer, bottle of wine, and the two entrees]

 

Waiter: Do you guys want to see the dessert menu?

Girl: Sure!

Guy: (to waiter) Actually, no we don't. You see, although she's clearly having a good time at the expense of my wallet, as is expected, dessert will put the bill past the $100 threshold. At that point, she thinks I'm a sucker or just a douche trying to impress her with a wad of cash. I can't have that happening, so the date's over. We'll take the check, thanks. (to girl) Oh, and uhh... you'll have to walk home because the cab would cost money too. But it was so great seeing you, thoughhhh!

 

I've written a lot of words in this thread defending the cultural model that allows women to get free meals. Much like a guy should just suck it up and not complain that he has to pay for the food, there should come a point where a girl should just suck it up and be thankful that it's actually beneficial for her and not complain that she's getting too much out of it or make judgments about a guy who willfully adheres to the model as is expected of him. Seriously?

Edited March 14, 2014 by normal person

[Ruby Slippers]

I've written a lot of words in this thread defending the cultural model that allows women to get free meals. Much like a guy should just suck it up and not complain that he has to pay for the food, there should come a point where a girl should just suck it up and be thankful that it's actually beneficial for her and not complain that she's getting too much out of it or make judgments about a guy who willfully adheres to the model as is expected of him. Seriously?

A nice dinner is nice, sure.

 

But I honestly don't believe that the amount of money a man spends on a date has any effect on the woman's core attraction to and connection with him. Rich guys have taken me on expensive dates with multiple locations, and all it did was make the business case - here's a guy who can take care of me financially. It didn't make me like him more or feel more attracted to him.

 

Personally, I wouldn't want to get too extravagant without the woman proving she's worthy of it.

 

But NYC is its own planet. It's the world capital for people who are trying to "make it" and get "the best". So everything's a bit skewed from normal there.

[crude]

 

What happened to the days of a man being a man?

 

A guy who allows women to mooch off him without putting his foot down isn't a man. Someone who pays for companionship isn't a man, he's a john. A guy who believes that women buy new dresses and shoes for every date is an idiot, not a man. It's expensive to be a man dating, because we're the ones who are expected to have a nice car to chauffeur the princess. I'd be embarassed to not have the guts to tell a woman I want her to show some respect and pay her fair share. There's an arrogance and sense of entitlement that women have that's even uglier than a woman without makeup.

[readynow]

I am really taken aback by your comment about being embarrassed... are you saying that getting up to pay the bill would be embarrassing to you? Could you expand upon that a little?

 

I will.

I was born and raised in a part of the world where women just don't pay when out on a date with a man. Whether a man is richer or poorer than yourself isn't the issue. He is expected to cut his coat according to the size of his cloth and take the woman to whatever place HE can afford. If a guy wanted me to pay some of it, during or after the date, I would think there was something wrong with him.

 

I really would feel embarrassed reaching into my purse to fetch money for the bill and laying it on the table for the waiter right there in front of him. I would feel like I was disrespecting the man sitting opposite (or beside) me.

 

That doesn't mean that I let him pay for everything though. Like I said before, I would sometimes try to order our drinks / snacks etc before he arrived. ALL takeouts to my house is paid by me - I go to my door and pay. I even pre-order cinema tickets! So, no, he isn't paying for everything.

 

I agree that just dating is different from being in a committed relationship though where the rules change a bit.

 

Dates can be very expensive in some areas but most women I know, never say, 'It was such a romantic date, he paid £300...' They say things like, 'It was such a romantic date, we went to this place, he was holding my hand the whole time, then we looked over xyz and he put his arm around me because I was cold blah blah blah yawn'

 

I personally am not a big eater. I'm tall and slim, dress well and carry myself about gracefully so those I date think I should be treated to 'fine-dining'. On most dates, I can only manage 1/4 of the meal anyway. The other day, the guy I was dating wanted us to go for drinks and early evening dinner, I just wanted to go for a walk and we did. He took me to this lovely place with such a view... It turned out to be the loveliest date I've been on in a year!

 

As for the OP, he has caused this for himself. He needs to find other non-monetary dates to go on and take his focus off the money issue. He should give himself a monthly budget for dates and not exceed that. Perhaps she doesn't want to spend her money on something she thinks might not even last?... by now, she should be paying for some things...

 

As for me, (though I find it difficult to admit) I would be much happier with a cone of ice cream on a park bench or a McDonald happy meal to be honest.