CurlyIam Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Originally posted by tanbark813 I hate statements like this. It may be true for some men and some women, but certainly not all. Blanket statements == the devil. Well, I somehow think that what I said did not contradict my supposition. I mean if she wanted sex (assuming she did), why feel tempted about calling the guy? I mean she gives in to him, yet she's too shy to resontact him? Doesn't make too much sense. And can we please stop romanticizing female infidelity. I say there are 2 types of infidelities: sexual ("damn, I wanna get laid tonight) and emotional. There is such a thing as emotional cheating and are sometimes more difficult to surpass because they involve a certain intimity with the cheater. Like soul connection, etc, even though they also have sexual attraction as a main cause. But it's deeper than that. When a guy cheats, it's "oh he's just thinking with his penis". When a girl cheats it's somehow inflated to some emotional, deep, romantic dilemma. Please. Some girls just like to f*ck. Totally agree. But some don't. Sorry. Sme are more for the thrill of how a man chasing them makes them feel, without actually sinking the pink. This is cheating too, because one shows herself available, leads a man on when ... she's not. To the OP, I understand your concern. If she only held hands, why the two month delay in telling you and the breakdown to the point of tears after a therapy session? And who holds hands until 4am? Sorry, tan, if you cannot unerstand that it does not necessarily make it untrue. It makes it emotional. I'm sorry, but allowing a man to see insie you, talking an revealing yourself IN A CONVERSATION to a man can sometimes be more intrusive than a threesome. It is about people. IT's all about people. I say it's possible. As a woman, I believe her. As a sensitive woman who has felt temptation, my opinion is that her behaviour afterwards is coherent to her story. There you go! It's so f*ckking easy to just be a guy! Yeah, man, she's an b****, she cheated!!! GUITLY!!! Cast the stone!!!! She didn't. Deal with it.
Moose Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 One foot in yesterday and one foot in tommorow means you're pissin' all over today.................
tanbark813 Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Originally posted by CurlyIam She didn't. Deal with it. I like how you can totally rip apart my *opinion* of the situation and then present your *opinion* as fact. You don't know if she did or didn't cheat. Neither do I. You have your view of the story, as do I. You're also operating under the assumption that what she said (including throwing away the email address), is true. If she did f*ck him and lie about that, then it would be inifinitely easier to lie about all this other stuff. To the OP, just keep your ears open and pay attention to details. I've had plenty of experience with liars and one common trait about them is they ALWAYS trip up on the details if you give them enough time.
whichwayisup Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 HMMM what happened to Arsonist? One foot in yesterday and one foot in tommorow means you're pissin' all over today................. So true.
CurlyIam Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 LOOL, tan, I meant in a "lawerish" tone. As in innocent until proven guilty .
tanbark813 Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Originally posted by CurlyIam LOOL, tan, I meant in a "lawerish" tone. As in innocent until proven guilty . That's fine then. Just don't hate on me for looking out for the guy.
Cecelius Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Originally posted by Owl I've got to say I don't know if she did or didn't... From my perspective, I wonder if that is really the issue. I'm more curious what you'll do if she says that she DID have a physical affair with him while she was there? So then are you going to have to know all of the details? Most guys do when something like this is found out. Realize that from her perspective, she screwed up in the most horrible way possible...four years ago. She has done everything she can to put it behind her and get it out of her mind. Bringing it up now, if there's no reason to fear that it's going on again, will truly make her doubt that you EVER forgave her for it. She's in a bad situation at the moment...either way. If she says no, nothing happened, WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE HER NOW, IF YOU HAVEN'T BELIEVED HER FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS? She'll have no way to prove or disprove anything at this point. And I've got to ask...WILL you believe her this time if she still says nothing happened? My thought is, probably not. She can't give you any more proof now than she did then...she's got even MORE reason to lie now...she's had four great years that she doesn't want to jeopardize...so why admit it now? And if she says yes, then the second round begins. You'll have a million questions...for which she may or may not have answers. Like I said...she's spent the last four years trying to FORGET this.... I've seen the same thing in my wife's case, and it was only 8 months ago. There's a "fog" that fills the mind of those in the affair...and when the affair lifts, that fog seems to make it that much harder for them to understand why they did what they did. And again...what will you do if she does admit to more? You'll want all those questions answered...and you'll wonder what else may have happened for the last four years. You'll have all these other doubts...and you'll just keep questioning and questioning. Personally, after four years, and all the effort to put it in the past, I'd seriously recommend that you let this one little trigger slide past, and focus on building your marriage as it is now...not how it was four years ago. I think the risk you're taking with your relationship with your wife may be greater than you think...and I seriously hope you STOP and THINK about what you'll do before you do ANYTHING. Good luck. Owl, I agree with everything you say above. I agree his chance to react to it was 4 years ago, in her mind. I agree that in her mind, its water under the bridge. But he's entitled to find her story fishy after all this time (personally, I would have shown her the door 48 months back). And more importantly, if she did leave things out, she effectively got away with it. Why does 4 more years of a marriage with all the sacrifices and burdens and lack of thrill and emotional food (and usually those who cheat are emotionally needy and weak people) mean that she's never going to cheat again? T o me, if the issue comes up at all, the relationship is doomed -- you will always know that the one who owed you the best treatment, gave you the worst (and some other guy either had relations with her or shared a special moment, or whatever you consider worse cheating).
Author sleepingdogs Posted January 24, 2005 Author Posted January 24, 2005 Let's back up for a second here... You say you would have shown her the door 48 months ago but put yourself in my shoes. This is a girl I met and we immediately fell in love. We lived together for 5 years and then had a beautiful wedding. Things were great between us (with the normal ups & downs of any relationship) and when she opened up to me about this she said NOTHING had happened and stood by her story. Even though I had doubts at the time and some of these doubts have resurfaced because of this movie (I truly didn't think about this at all in the past 4 years) that doesn't mean that anything did in fact happen... I don't think you can throw away 7 years together (now 11) because someone tells you, I went to a wedding and felt something for somebody...
Owl Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Originally posted by Cecelius Owl, I agree with everything you say above. I agree his chance to react to it was 4 years ago, in her mind. I agree that in her mind, its water under the bridge. But he's entitled to find her story fishy after all this time (personally, I would have shown her the door 48 months back). And more importantly, if she did leave things out, she effectively got away with it. Why does 4 more years of a marriage with all the sacrifices and burdens and lack of thrill and emotional food (and usually those who cheat are emotionally needy and weak people) mean that she's never going to cheat again? T o me, if the issue comes up at all, the relationship is doomed -- you will always know that the one who owed you the best treatment, gave you the worst (and some other guy either had relations with her or shared a special moment, or whatever you consider worse cheating). Based on that...no relationship that EVER suffered from infidelity would stand a chance at recovery. I don't agree with that. You can recover...if both parties work for it and want it to happen. Your question about the "Why does 4 more years of a marriage with all the sacrifices and burdens and lack of thrill and emotional food (and usually those who cheat are emotionally needy and weak people) mean that she's never going to cheat again?" is interesting. Those four years of sacrifice and burden and lack of thrill wouldn't mean she won't cheat again...and if that is ALL that those four years are, the relationship IS doomed. Now, if in that four years you found "love, fun, good times, caring, sharing, lust, etc, etc..." then I'd say that it looks a lot more likely that it will make it. Not to mention that she's had FOUR YEARS to prove to him that she hasn't cheated up to that point. In most marriages, there does have to be a "statute of limitations" on how long you can keep bringing something up from the past. And I'll grant that infidelity would have one of the longest times of any of the offenses, there STILL has to be a limit, and a GOOD REASON to bring it up. If he doubts her behavior NOW...it's a good reason to bring it up. Just because he saw a movie that made him suddenly think about this after four years....not a good reason. Especially not compared to the risk to the marriage and the emotional trauma he's likely to put both of them through....regardless of whether or not she's told the truth about it. Just my opinion...good luck regardless friend.
nap Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Sleepingdogs, In life we have to assume that the truth always comes out ....sooner or later. Some people think they can take these things to the grave. Wrong. "Time discovered truth" .....Seneca Sleeping dogs....I've been in your shoes......I'd want to find out the truth now and deal with it ..... not 2, 5 or 10 years from now. Too much history will be clocked up which counts for nought - too many life decisions made based on lies. Satisfy yourself of the truth whichever way you prefer. Once satisfied you can move forward. If your marriage is as good as you say it is then the "awful" truth should not kill it - it may slightly diminish but at least its genuine - warts and all. Ciao.
CurlyIam Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 What "awful" truth? What if there's nothing? What if it's him not trusting her enough? Isn't doubting a loving wife awful too? Jeeesus, men!
Owl Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Curly- I'd totally agree with you that it's absolutely horrible to blame an otherwise blameless person. Don't limit that to us men, please! Women are quite capable of that as well...and do it on a regular basis. And, having been in a position where MY wife has been involved in an emotional affair...that trust takes one HELLUVA beating from something like that. The betrayed spouse will likely NEVER blindly trust again...even if he ends the marriage and starts a new relationship, he'll likely still have the need to "trust, but verify". I know...my wife hasn't done anything for 6 months to give me any indication that she's resumed her affair or started anything new...but do I still have to deal with my fear that it could happen again? Yes. That does fade with time, but it takes TIME...and again, the trust may never be the same again. You're right, she may have revealed everything to him four years ago. Entirely possible...and that's one reason why I don't think that he needs to bring this up now. Again...don't gender limit this...trust or distrust is NOT a gender thing. It's an "I've been burned before" thing.
CurlyIam Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Sorry, owl, I meant the fact that all men posting here were casting the stone. That none of them not even as much wondered if maybe, just maybe, that was the whole situation. I know it is impossible to trust again. I know. I know that the doubts and the wonderings are eating the life of you inside... But letting something otherwise impossible to control take over you, obsessing about something that he cannot change or know for certain... that is unsane. It is true that I am speaking for myself here, but I have also cheated. Not physically. I was in a LTR relationship and did kiss another man. And that was all. My bf at that time never did put what I confesse him under doubt. Because... I don't know, maybe I'm naive, but it takes a certain type of woman to actually go through with it. All the way. You know your wives. YEah, people are full of surprises, but... I don't know. Waiting for her to stab you in the back each time you're not paying attention is no way to live your life either. Again, maybe I should take to poetry, I don't know ... But every form of love, of true love does involve a certain degree of trust, unfounded, blind trust. My 2 cens, anyway.
Owl Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Well, it will be interesting to see how things work out for me in the long run. I know I love my wife...true love. She's the only woman I've ever LOVED in that sense of the word. Trust is definitely not what it was, but it IS getting better with time. Will I ever "blindly trust" again? Not sure...but I'm not sure that I will ever blindly trust ANYONE again...I've never been that trusting to begin with with most people. And I agree...I have no desire to spend the rest of my life worrying if she will do this again. Nor do I plan to. Right now, yes I have doubts at times. But, I AM seeing the "proof" that she's not cheating...and that is what will let me get over this in time. I have no intentions of asking her about this four years from now...if I don't have the answer even right now, I ask myself just how important is it that I know the answer...because I have to decide if its going to be worth the setback in our recovery when I ask. It hurts her everytime that I ask...so I've got to weigh the value of the answer vs the cost. And that's what I'm suggesting our friend here do as well.
Owl Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Well, it will be interesting to see how things work out for me in the long run. I know I love my wife...true love. She's the only woman I've ever LOVED in that sense of the word. Trust is definitely not what it was, but it IS getting better with time. Will I ever "blindly trust" again? Not sure...but I'm not sure that I will ever blindly trust ANYONE again...I've never been that trusting to begin with with most people. And I agree...I have no desire to spend the rest of my life worrying if she will do this again. Nor do I plan to. Right now, yes I have doubts at times. But, I AM seeing the "proof" that she's not cheating...and that is what will let me get over this in time. I have no intentions of asking her about this four years from now...if I don't have the answer even right now, I ask myself just how important is it that I know the answer...because I have to decide if its going to be worth the setback in our recovery when I ask. It hurts her everytime that I ask...so I've got to weigh the value of the answer vs the cost. And that's what I'm suggesting our friend here do as well.
Cecelius Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 I can't see obsessing about it, personally, at all. I also wouldn't have have stayed married 4 years ago. I wouldn't worry about what happened, I'd just think about why it still bothers you now. My sense is because you don't trust her. That may be her fault or yours or both, but it means something. There's no love worth pursuing if you don't have trust. its not a matter of hate or revenge or spite or otherwise: if your husband/wife cheats, why bother having any opinion of him at all? Think about what she did, don't worry about why she did it (that's her problem) unless you were not treating her within the bounds of rational matrimonial affection, just focus on whether you think she lied about what happened, factor that into where you want to go from here. I would not consult her or try to get more facts, I'd just decide where I am on it and act, swiftly.
Owl Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Cecilius- I've seen your posts on other forums here in LS...you're anti marriage to begin with. If you're not even sure you want to marry, then you would have no idea what its like in a marriage...or how to deal with it if infidelity HAS occurred. I'm not discounting you or your advice... But seriously, from your posts and your attitude toward marriage, what do you really expect in ANY relationship? This sounds harsh, but you sound from your posts as though you don't have any desire to have or any understanding of a marriage commitment. You would have dumped her four years ago...HOW DO YOU KNOW? You haven't been through any of this...I said much the same thing years ago...if my wife ever cheated on me, I'd just leave. IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE If it were...no one would remain married. There's ALWAYS an excuse to give up and end a relationship...many do just to avoid the work. Marriage vows typically don't say..."until things get rough, then my ass is outta here". Maybe yours will, if you do get married, I don't know. Marriage is a COMMITMENT. Many of us do take that promise and vow very very seriously. Even if our spouses didn't, we did. And that may sometimes mean we have to work through things we hadn't planned on. Have you ever met someone and said "that is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with"? If so, what did you do? If not, then realize that you probably are correct...you don't really understand what all the fuss is about. Sorry if I offend. I just don't understand your viewpoint anymore than I think you understand mine.
uberfrau Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 What a bunch of puritanical freaks! SHe says nothing happened, hubby doesn't believe her for some reason. How long ago was it? 4 years? Ooooo, she HELD HANDS with him! Big deal-are you people in junior high or something? OR worse, she KISSED him, with tongue-uh oh, stone the adulteress! My husband had a drunken rendevous with some other girl before we were married, and told me 8 years after the fact! I had suspected more went on the that and when asked he denied it. I really didn't care-after all, i've 'sinned'. I told him if he does something like that again i better not find out...because there's this really hot guy in my class! I guess it boils down to what one can tolerate. IMO, freaking out because your spouse gets drunk and holds hand or kisses another man is JUVENILE. Even if she did sleep with him...you can forgive and forget that. As long as you can be reasonably sure the behavior hasn't repeated itself.
whichwayisup Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 I wouldn't worry about what happened, I'd just think about why it still bothers you now. My sense is because you don't trust her. That may be her fault or yours or both, but it means something. This came up because of a movie they watched together...Something in the movie triggered him and those feelings came up again...Made him feel doubtful and think. I think ANYBODY would be triggered in that situation as well...Movies can do that sometimes.
CurlyIam Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Humans do take decisions on irrational basis. However, taking facts out of their own context is one sure way to fail. If you were right, all people who killed other people in self defence ought to rot in jail. They did kill, didn't they? Based on your theory, the 'why' and the "how' are irrelevant. Infidelity... it's just like people. You cannot generalise. Sometimes there's a reason. Other times there's a context. Other times there's no logical explination. But the mere fact that there are infidelities due to no logic whatsoever does not make the other scenarios unvalid. I am a strong believer in facts. But are the years of being faithfull, of love, of devotion outweighted by another act? Aren't they worthy of consideration before a "swift" heisty decision, whatever this decision may be?
CurlyIam Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Originally posted by whichwayisup This came up because of a movie they watched together...Something in the movie triggered him and those feelings came up again...Made him feel doubtful and think. I think ANYBODY would be triggered in that situation as well...Movies can do that sometimes. You are soo right. I remember seeing Diane Lane in "Unfaithful" and I swear to God it triggered remourse and long burried memories ...
tanbark813 Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Originally posted by uberfrau What a bunch of puritanical freaks! ... IMO, freaking out because your spouse gets drunk and holds hand or kisses another man is JUVENILE. I love it when people start a post out with name-calling and then go on to accuse the targets of said name-calling as being juvenile.
Cecelius Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 Owl- As it happens, I was married for some time (13+ years), which ended for reasons unrelated to this type of thread. Having children, worry over them, worked, gone to school, etc., I've got some sense of committment (as it happens, I was quite young when it began, and still regard her as an excellent person). And I admire your strong will and willingness to stand by what you want and what matters to you (I've read a number of your posts). I do subscribe to romantic notions and hence tend to apply the same rules of committed dating relationships that I do to married ones. I acknowledge that that gives poor treatment to the married folks who feel they are are in it for the long haul. I have read Tolkien's parts about the power of oaths to steel one's mind and heart, and similar matters. But these promises are in context of not wounding each other. I am perfectly happy with marriage, harsh editorials notwithstanding. I have no objection to the ups and downs, poverty, wealth, illness and so forth. Regardless of all else, these things are all matters a couple is somewhat likely to face as a team. As it happens, I also tend to equate who people are with what they have accomplished, good and bad, in life. Never my place to judge, but certainly my place to avoid associating with them. On this unique issue, there is, to me no team when there has been infidelity (to the extent that I am aware, I have not suffered its barbs in the context of marriage), and, frankly, no sense to me in attempting to love them anymore. To me, the natural result of cheating is simply less emotional attachment, less desire and less interest. Effectively, if they cheat, they are not who you believed them to be. And that isn't awful, its just a mistake on my part in picking poorly. His take, as yours, may be different, but your right to recommit yourself, as you have done it, in light of an infidelity is still built on some sense of self-determination -- and that's the root of how I view these things. One does not have to forgive, but one may choose to. Generally, I wouldn't bother.
CurlyIam Posted January 24, 2005 Posted January 24, 2005 I hope you excuse my persistance, Cecilius, but I think I have a few questions for you. You say: To me, the natural result of cheating is simply less emotional attachment, less desire and less interest. Effectively, if they cheat, they are not who you believed them to be. And that isn't awful, its just a mistake on my part in picking poorly. An I ask you: in your 13 years of marriage, did you always love your wife with the same intensity? Did you show her your interest, your attention,your all? My point: sometimes you do love less. Sometimes you are disappointed, sometimes you are not on the same line, you are disconnected. Do you also chose to walk away? To give up? IMO, sometimes people are driven to infidelity. Because tey are miserable. Because they feel they are being taken for granted. Other times, like you say, they simply chose to. Somehow, I thank God we're not during the Inquisition when all thought to be infidels were slaughtered and left it to GOD to separate the innocent from the sinners...
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