Should be angry but hurting

[SincereGuy]

I didn't sleep at all last night. I feel gut wrenched. I have been talking to what I thought was a really nice woman for awhile and I asked her out a couple of weeks ago. We've been on five dates. We are both divorced and in our 50s. She hadn't dated in two years after being dumped by her fiancé shortly before they were to be married. I got dumped a little more than a year ago by someone I was really invested in as well. Even though we've only been dating a short time we shared a lot and promised to always treat each other with respect and integrity. She is a very attractive, smart, and seemingly caring woman. She told me that she is highly sexual, but has not had sex in the past two years. She said she was committed to only having sex within a committed relationship. She asked me to be understanding and not push until she was ready. I respected her wishes. So we've done a lot of kissing, cuddling and talking from the heart, but that's it. So it seemed like an ideal beginning––things have been going extremely well. I am smitten with her and I thought she was developing feelings as well.

 

So yesterday she emailed and said we needed to reschedule our mid-week date this week to another night. I emailed her back with two alternate days and confirmed the same plan we had talked about. Several hours later I hadn't heard back but didn't think too much of it. Several more hours and I thought it was odd that she hadn't responded since we've always been prompt to return texts and emails.

 

I was driving through town a little later and saw her car parked in front of a restaurant. It was dark so I walked past the restaurant and saw her inside. I parked some distance away and saw her come out with a man who walked her to her car and then followed her. Needless to say I was upset. I went home and just felt awful. Sometime after midnight, four or five hours later, I couldn't stand it anymore and got in the car and drove past her house. His car was in the driveway and the house was dark. I don't know if I've ever felt that gut-wrenched. She went out with a guy and phucckked him on the first date after leading me to believe we had begun something real and she wanted to let it develop further before sleeping together.

 

What kind of woman would do that to a guy who is trying to be honorable? I am hurt and bewildered. I should be angry enough to break something but all I feel is a deep sense of betrayal... as if she never valued me at all. How are we supposed to ever trust anyone? We had not declared exclusivity, so she's technically free to screw anyone she wants, but that doesn't really lessen the impact because of everything we'd said to each other. She had said that she felt her sexuality awakening since we've been dating, but why would she just arrange a hookup like this instead of fulfilling her needs with me after we've been working up to it? This sucks so bad and I don't know what to feel or do.

[Janesays]

Before you freak out, make sure she doesn't have an out of town relative visiting. That could have been her brother, cousin, whatever.

[SincereGuy]

No, I know what I saw. She would've mentioned if she was having out of town company. And the fact that she met him there makes me pretty certain it was a first-time OLD meeting/hookup. Plus she still hasn't responded to that email. How could I not have seen something like this coming? I don't have anyone to talk to either... it's really hard.

[amaysngrace]

Maybe her ex is back in the picture? Some people have a sixth sense that way and reappear just as the other person is about to move on.

 

Or it is just her brother...

[TheyCallMeOx]

Considering you're in your 50's, you probably know that people can lie. To you, that shouldn't come as a surprise. Over the years, people have probably told you things, very believable things, and it turned out to be completely different than what they said. Sometimes people are intentionally manipulative, sometimes people are unintentionally manipulative, and sometimes people change their opinions given the circumstances. Some women say "I would NEVER try anal sex," but...who is to say she is going to consistently feel that way in every circumstance? No one knows for certain.

 

When you invest too much emotion into what people say, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

Because you and her have not established exclusivity, she's morally free to screw any dude she wants. You mention that, so I don't need to explain that any further.

 

As I was reading this, I witnessed two major problems:

 

1) Lack of communication

2) Your actions

 

Because of your feelings of betrayal, there's lack of communication. When couples don't establish exclusivity, then it is automatically assumed that both are going to continue pursuing other people. That's something you should understand, and you probably do. However, if she said that she's "not going to have sex with anyone else," then that should mean "she's not going to have sex with anyone else." If she hasn't established exclusivity with you, then she's welcome to pursue other men. Just because she wants to take things slow with you doesn't mean she wants to take things slow with someone else. It's like women and anal sex: a woman may not be interested in having anal sex with me, but that doesn't mean she won't have anal sex with someone else. Circumstances change all the time. Sometimes we'll say we're not going to do something, but we end up doing it for, what seems to be, a valid reason.

 

If you feel betrayed, then there was a lack of communication on her end, and/or on your end. Either she hasn't clearly indicated her intentions, or you misinterpreted, misheard, or somehow prevented yourself from hearing that kind of important information. One of the two happened, so you need to decide what went wrong in the communication. The best way to find out is by talking about it with her. But here's another problem...

 

While she may have betrayed you, you essentially have betrayed her. You basically borderline stalked this woman. If I go out to a restaurant with someone, I don't want to consider the possibility that another potential partner is in the parking lot waiting for me to exit the restaurant. That's borderline creepy behavior, a complete turn off, and a potential red flag. I know that you trusted your intuition and wanted to "play detective," but you took it too far. If you went out for a little while, saw the car at the restaurant, but kept going, that would've been fine and easy to get yourself out of. However, you went to the restaurant, waited, and then went back to her place later that night. You can't come up with an excuse for that kind of thing. If you pull up the fact that you've done something like that, then she's going to get pretty concerned and she, herself, is going to feel betrayed. Ultimately, you both may end up feeling betrayed for completely different reasons even when it was the same event.

 

At this point, it's a bad situation. There's too much room for manipulation. You could lie and pretend that you didn't go to her house that night, and that you didn't wait till she got out of the restaurant, but there's a possibility that she may say "no, that wasn't my car." The only way this can go right is if she says "yes, I went out on a date with a guy and ended up having sex with him later that night" and therefore...you won't feel the need to confront her about what you know because she was honest. However, a lot of things could go wrong and at this point...you need to figure out what you're willing to risk and not willing to risk. If you confront her about what you know, you risk a potential relationship with this woman. However, if you have a serious discussion with her and make sure you understand her correctly, you may learn that you've misinterpreted what she said or perhaps lead yourself to believe in something that isn't true. Maybe you were hoping that she wasn't going to do anything because of how much you thought she liked you.

 

However, proceed with caution. Things could go wrong real quick, but there seems to be a lack of communication somewhere, and you've gotta find out what went wrong. However you wanna do it is up to you, but realize that anything you say and do from here on can be held against you in the court of potential relationships.

[SincereGuy]

Ox, as much as I appreciate your effort, it's not nearly as black and white as you try to portray it. It's not a lack of communication; she lied both about her intentions generally, and about her intentions with respect to me. Secondly, by definition, stalking involves causing someone to fear for their safety, and usually requires a pattern of behavior, and I didn't do either in any way, shape or form. Everything I saw was in plain view, observable by many people. I don't even know if she gives a damn that I saw what I saw. I said upfront that we had no official exclusivity agreement.

 

So what you're basically saying is that I'm a bad guy, she's pure as the driven snow, and I have no right to my feelings. I'm really not interested in your technical analysis. This is about her integrity and my feelings. I think I described the situation sufficiently and asked appropriate questions.

[ctxinfl]

Ox, as much as I appreciate your effort, it's not nearly as black and white as you try to portray it. It's not a lack of communication; she lied both about her intentions generally, and about her intentions with respect to me.

 

That sounds black and white to me. She lied to you.

[SincereGuy]

She just emailed. Totally nonchalant. Invited me to her house tonight. I still haven't slept. I haven't decided whether to go, and if I do whether to openly confront, do a bit of subtle probing or just play dumb and see if she volunteers anything. The most notable possibility that no one has mentioned is that maybe they just hung out and didn't get naked. I think it's doubtful due to the length of time he was there and that I couldn't see any lights on other than the porch lights. Everything else is pretty much fact, but this is an assumption however unlikely.

[salparadise]

Ordinarily I'd say confront it head on, or ask if there's anything she wants to tell you... but, if you can accept that it's not exclusive and she's seeing other guys and deal with the ambiguity, and if she got sexxed last night for the first time in two years... you just might be in for a wild ride. Maybe he got her all primed and then couldn't keep it up. Silver linings

[HomanWater]

Because of your feelings of betrayal, there's lack of communication. When couples don't establish exclusivity, then it is automatically assumed that both are going to continue pursuing other people. That's something you should understand, and you probably do. However, if she said that she's "not going to have sex with anyone else," then that should mean "she's not going to have sex with anyone else." If she hasn't established exclusivity with you, then she's welcome to pursue other men. Just because she wants to take things slow with you doesn't mean she wants to take things slow with someone else. It's like women and anal sex: a woman may not be interested in having anal sex with me, but that doesn't mean she won't have anal sex with someone else. Circumstances change all the time. Sometimes we'll say we're not going to do something, but we end up doing it for, what seems to be, a valid reason.

It doesn't mean other person has to blindly accept that and pretend like nothing happened. Just because there were no exclusive agreement doesn't mean you suddenly have to put up with whatever BS that is thrown at you.

 

I had once similar thing done to me. From that point on I took said woman far less seriously. No intimacy ever happened, I was grossed out enough.

[TheyCallMeOx]

Ox, as much as I appreciate your effort, it's not nearly as black and white as you try to portray it. It's not a lack of communication; she lied both about her intentions generally, and about her intentions with respect to me. Secondly, by definition, stalking involves causing someone to fear for their safety, and usually requires a pattern of behavior, and I didn't do either in any way, shape or form. Everything I saw was in plain view, observable by many people. I don't even know if she gives a damn that I saw what I saw. I said upfront that we had no official exclusivity agreement.

 

So what you're basically saying is that I'm a bad guy, she's pure as the driven snow, and I have no right to my feelings. I'm really not interested in your technical analysis. This is about her integrity and my feelings. I think I described the situation sufficiently and asked appropriate questions.

 

By no means am I saying that you're a bad guy, and/or she's "pure as the driven snow." Potentially, she could be the bad guy. I'm not there during the time that you and her communicate, so I can't really tell you what she said or didn't say, which is why I offered possibilities about what might've happened. I never claim to know what happened or why, but I include possibilities to see if you could come up with something. After all, you were there. Only you can truly come up with the best answer on what went wrong. Also, I try to answer without a bias. I don't know her side of the story, but I'm not going to dismiss it and call her a slut because you seem very sure of the situation. Perhaps you're 100% right, I don't know, but I was merely trying to get you to think about the situation in a different way. If a woman tells you that she likes you, says she's not going to have sex without being in a committed relationship, and potentially turns around and does that...maybe there's something she hasn't told you. Either way, there was a lack of communication -- that lack of communication was what resulted in you finding out things that she might've not wanted you to find out.

 

If she fails to be communicative, then that's on her -- not on you. I'm totally for taking responsibility for the things I've done wrong, and I also try to be just. If she downright lied to you, that's fine. She should admit responsibility, and you need to find someone else. However, *IF* you misinterpreted what she said, or did anything to contribute, then I would want you to learn where YOU went wrong so it wouldn't happen again.

 

That's what we ultimately have to do. When we're given a bad experience, we have to learn from that experience which is why I wanted you to question it. It's part of my whole process with diagnosing an issue. Even if I'm 100% certain that it was someone else's fault, I have to consider the possibility that I might have overlooked information. I'll take responsibility where I need to, but if something isn't my fault...then it simply isn't my fault. I think it's best to reflect on a situation and find out how we should feel about something. How you feel is how you feel, and that's perfectly fine. Your feelings are very important. However, we've gotta understand the situation so we can understand why we feel that way.

 

I didn't quite say that it was stalking, but I did say that it was "borderline." If you want to look at the technical definition, that's fine, but it's still questionable behavior. I'm not saying your curiosity isn't justified, but the behavior wasn't healthy. From the sound of it, you spent quite some time waiting at the restaurant, and at the house. It may not have been stalking, but it's something that many women don't like and it could have serious consequences. It's not so much what you're doing now that is a potential red flag, but it's what may happen down the road. If you were to marry a woman, she goes away on a business trip, and you end up skyping every night, what would happen if you don't hear from her? Are you going to take a trip, track her down, and find out whether she's asleep or not? That's why it's a big deal. I understand your justification, and I might've even done the same thing, but to that degree when you and her aren't even exclusive is just very questionable.

 

Regardless, you've got to confront her. You acknowledge how you can, so you have to figure out what's best. However, you do have to solve the problem NOW. Don't let it build up into something it shouldn't have to be.

[SincereGuy]

By no means am I saying that you're a bad guy, and/or she's "pure as the driven snow." Potentially, she could be the bad guy.

 

Ok, sorry if I was overly defensive. I'm not sure there is a definitive right or wrong here, other than her behavior being contrary to what I expected based on what she has said. She made statement leading me to believe that she did not intend to have casual sex or sex outside of a relationship. I was trying to build that relationship with her and then she phucckks some guy she met two hours earlier. To me it feels seriously disingenuous. We have talked about sex quite a bit and that, combined with the demure statements, creates a certain expectation. In this case the expectation didn't match the reality regardless of which respective contributions she or I own.

 

This is relationship stuff not hard edged morality. You can't deconstruct it based on mathematical principles or the scientific method. My feelings have eased quite a bit since she started communicating today. This tells me that it's a lot more about a callous rejection, being treated like a schmuck, than breaking implied exclusivity.

 

And yes, I do believe there is implied exclusivity. Relationships aren't business contracts where you get the lawyers involved. When people of integrity state their intentions and expectations, and the other person accepts, even though it's executed by a nod or smile rather than a notarized signature... there is implied exclusivity and it's not precisely defined. There is a pretty big gap between the first date and the point where people become a couple officially. In fact, there are people who continue for years with merely an understanding rather than official declaration. We're not in high school, and we're supposedly people of integrity. I expected something different.

 

 

If a woman tells you that she likes you, says she's not going to have sex without being in a committed relationship, and potentially turns around and does that...maybe there's something she hasn't told you.

 

Well, for sure there's something I need to figure out. This is from her online profile: "You want to take the time to develop a meaningful, passionate, long-term relationship with an amazing woman. Im not interested in casual dating or casual sex." We met in real life as opposed to online, but she said exactly the same thing to me in person. So you tell me whether or not there is a gap between words and actions.

 

I think it's best to reflect on a situation and find out how we should feel about something. How you feel is how you feel, and that's perfectly fine. Your feelings are very important. However, we've gotta understand the situation so we can understand why we feel that way.

 

Well said.

 

I didn't quite say that it was stalking, but I did say that it was "borderline." If you want to look at the technical definition, that's fine, but it's still questionable behavior.

 

I disagree that it was questionable behavior. What am I supposed to do... run away if I see something suspicious? One correction to the original narrative: it was parked behind the restaurant, not in front, yet was still visible from the street. That added to the mystique.

 

From the sound of it, you spent quite some time waiting at the restaurant, and at the house.

 

No, I did not. only a few minutes at the restaurant and I didn't even slow down when I drove past the house.

 

It may not have been stalking, but it's something that many women don't like and it could have serious consequences.

 

Of course they wouldn't like it. I wouldn't like getting caught red-handed either. Not my problem.

 

Regardless, you've got to confront her. You acknowledge how you can, so you have to figure out what's best. However, you do have to solve the problem NOW. Don't let it build up into something it shouldn't have to be.

 

No, I don't have to confront her. One perfectly legitimate option is to simply adjust the expectations and quit investing in it the way I had been. And that seems like a pretty good option at this point. It's obvious that her words and actions aren't matching up, and confronting that will just result in big drama but not a different outcome. I'd be willing to bet she's one who'd go BSC if her integrity were questioned.

Edited March 3, 2014 by SincereGuy

[amaysngrace]

You're perpetrating the drama by making assumptions. Ask her what she did last night.

 

Use another means of communication than an email too. Try using the phone or ask her in person.

[twosadthings]

It sounds like right now she's not the one for you. If you want to keep seeing her hold onto your heart while you two can come to an understanding. You've never had the exclusivity talk no matter what your discussions have covered.

 

Twosadthings

[pteromom]

I think you are jumping the gun, and you should just ask her rather than making assumptions.

 

Say, "I drove past ____ restaurant yesterday and saw you there." See what she says.

 

As other people have noted, it could be her brother, her cousin, her boss, an ex, or she could be multi-dating (you have only been on 5 dates, right?)

 

And just because he was at her house doesn't mean they slept together. People can hang out without having sex.

[SincereGuy]

I think you are jumping the gun, and you should just ask her rather than making assumptions.

 

Say, "I drove past ____ restaurant yesterday and saw you there." See what she says.

 

As other people have noted, it could be her brother, her cousin, her boss, an ex, or she could be multi-dating (you have only been on 5 dates, right?)

 

And just because he was at her house doesn't mean they slept together. People can hang out without having sex.

 

She's multi-dating. I am 99.999 percent certain. She doesn't have family in the area. She does have an OLD profile. As far as hanging out... well, I have some circumstantial reasons to believe it was more than that. For instance, we have always ended our dates relatively early and the whole time I have been in the house the lights have been on. When you start having multiple pieces of circumstantial things aligning like this... and there are other intuitive factors that add to that. It's not iron clad proof but it's as close as it gets without photographs. It may come up at some point but my inclination is to adjust expectations way downward and and line up a few dates of my own with other people. I would be more inclined to just say, hey- what did you do last night. That way I'll find out if she'll lie to my face if she thinks I won't know the difference.

[Canucklehead]

So what did you do???

[SincereGuy]

I went. We made pizza from scratch and drank a bottle of wine. Not long after we started cooking she asked me if I watched the academy awards last night, so that was my opening... I said, no, did you? She said no. Then I asked what she did. And she said, oh not much. Then I said, so what had you so preoccupied that you never responded to my email. She played dumb. I pushed a little more and she became quite uncomfortable, averted eye-contact and so forth without offering any explanation.

 

After we ate, I took her to the living room and started messing around some. She protested that she was afraid that the neighbors could see, so I said let's kill the lights and she did. She was ready to call it a night at 10pm... 2 1/2 hours earlier than the previous night. So I was there 4 hours total, including cooking and eating (about 2 hours). The guy from the previous night was there at least 4 hours after they had already eaten. Also, even after we dimmed the lights in the living room there were plenty of other lights on downstairs which weren't on the previous night. It seems unlikely to me that she was sitting on the couch in total darkness talking to to a guy she just met for 4+ hours. But if you add a few rounds then the timeline makes sense.

 

My conclusion is that she is disingenuous and playing me for a schmuck. I think that stuff about not being into casual sex is a load of crap. She's playing the role of virtuous woman with me, then hooking up with a stranger to scratch her itch. We talk a lot about sex, but after six dates we're no more intimate (physically or emotionally) than on the 2nd date. It feels thin. I think she craves attention and enjoys the sense of power she gets from manipulating the situation, with me being none the wiser.

 

Something just isn't right about this woman. Time to change things up.

Edited March 4, 2014 by SincereGuy

[HomanWater]

So what is the plan? Are you going to:

 

1. Suddenly become much more sexually aggressive towards her.

 

or

 

2. Play along and keep up that whole "virtuous and not into casual sex" thing when you already know it's BS from her part.

 

or

 

3. Decide she's not worth it and move on.

 

If I were you, I'd do 3. But generally I go 1. from the beginning.

[SincereGuy]

So what is the plan? Are you going to:

 

1. Suddenly become much more sexually aggressive towards her.

 

2. Play along and keep up that whole "virtuous and not into casual sex" thing when you already know it's BS from her part.

 

3. Decide she's not worth it and move on.

 

If I were you, I'd do 3. But generally I go 1. from the beginning.

 

Well, I've already decided #3 but since she's turned it into BS games, and consumed more of my resources than she deserves, I'd walk away with a lot more satisfaction if I nailed it first. She's feeling far too confident. She needs the rubber band treatment.

 

It was tempting to drop hints and innuendo that I knew something last night. I did tell her that I didn't sleep much because I had a weird feeling that something was incongruent. Then later I commented that she seemed particularly gregarious and asked if she had any idea why that might be. I think we need a conversation about telepathy and intuition.

 

If she senses that I'm cooling and decides to crank it up in response that great, and if not that's ok too.

[pteromom]

I don't know why you are turning this into a game-playing situation. You are making this into way more drama than it needs to be.

 

Just tell her what you know and see what she says. If she flips out, you've lost nothing since you are planning on letting her go anyway.

 

It's possible she has done nothing wrong and you are about to cut her off for no reason.

[SincereGuy]

I don't know why you are turning this into a game-playing situation. You are making this into way more drama than it needs to be.

 

Just tell her what you know and see what she says. If she flips out, you've lost nothing since you are planning on letting her go anyway.

 

It's possible she has done nothing wrong and you are about to cut her off for no reason.

 

Confronting her doesn’t create any new options for me. It only forces her to choose between admitting it or lying about it. I don’t really need for her to admit that she’s multi-dating because I saw it with my own eyes. She’s not going to admit to sleeping with anyone no matter what, I can’t prove it no matter what, and I don’t have standing to condemn he for it even if I could prove it (other than garden variety slut-shaming).

 

Confronting her would simply bring whatever it is we have to an abrupt, ugly ending. She’d probably wouldn’t believe that I just happened to see her car parked there either… and if she loses face and gets pissed she could try and turn that into an issue.

 

Without a confrontation my options are actually greater. I can walk away friendly, accept it for what it is (which doesn’t work for me), or possibly draw her closer and have something that does work for me by changing the dynamic. I will always have the option to confront her with what I saw, until I exercise it. It’s more useful for her to not know that I know.

 

I realize that you have doubts about my interpretation of what I saw, but I don’t. I’m 100% sure on the multi-dating and about 85% sure that she phucckked a stranger that night until sometime after 12:30am. And I’m 100% sure she’d never admit it.

[BradJacobs]

She isn't worth getting this worked up over.

 

Go no contact. Stop being her doormat and bang someone else.

[SincereGuy]

She isn't worth getting this worked up over. Go no contact. Stop being her doormat and bang someone else.

 

That really is the long and short of it all. Just not worth it.

[Canucklehead]

Sounds like you are making a reasonable judgement and taking the appropriate action in my opinion.

 

Good Luck SincereGuy