lynn1954 Posted March 2, 2014 Posted March 2, 2014 My former relationship with a married man lasted for five years until I ended it. Even while I was in the middle of the relationship, I recognized that he was manipulative. But I couldn't get myself out until I learned more about manipulation and how it works. BTW I recognize and admit all of my own bad choices and my part in conducting the affair; nevertheless, his manipulation played a part in the bad choices I made. Sometimes manipulative men are cold, lying ***holes who know exactly what they're doing to you, and they know consciously that they don't love you and they're using you. They're deliberate fakers, but they make you feel loved, cherished, special. But, sometimes manipulative men don't consciously know that they're manipulating you, they actually believe that they love you, but they don't leave their wife because there is some reason that seems legitimate to them. A common manipulation is to do something for you that you didn't ask him to do, but after he does it he wants you to feel grateful to have him and grateful for what he did, and claims that his sacrifice shows he loves you. When I sold my house and downsized to an apartment, he helped me a lot, but I hadn't asked him, and I could've completed it without him via friends, family and hired movers. Another common manipulation is kindness, tenderness, listening, compliments, making you feel special. Some guys do this intentionally, like a scammer. But some manipulative guys convince themselves that they are talking and acting that way for your benefit, when actually it's for their own benefit. It's hard to discern, because their words and deeds do make you feel better. It seems so real and genuine. In some cases, it's all fake, but in other cases it's because the manipulative guy does a mind game on himself to believe what he's saying and doing is real. Another common manipulation is a "little boy lost", like Peter Pan syndrome. He is so sad and unhappy, and you're the only bright spot in his day, in his life. Just a phone call to you makes his whole day; seeing you helps him survive his crappy life. A lot of people in the world got dealt a crappy hand, and they could use your help. Ask yourself why you're helping him deal with the crappy hand he was dealt, but you're not helping your neighbor, co-worker, church member, friend or family member to deal with the crappy hand they got. It's because he's manipulating you. Go on the Internet and learn more about manipulative men; it will help you end your affair if you've been trying to end it but having a hard time sticking with your plan.
bentleychic Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 It's funny...sometimes people do these things purely and honestly...just to do them or say them...because they truly feel them. It doesn't necessarily make them manipulative. It doesn't make them "lines". Most things you have listed, would be "normal" and "acceptable" coming from a partner in a regular relationship. For example, I know my MM is my bright spot (in addition to my children, friends and my father). If I say that to him, does that make me manipulative or is that only the case when it comes from a MM/MW? 6
Hope Shimmers Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 I am not sure I totally understand all of what you are saying. Some of the things you have listed don't seem manipulative to me. I would agree that many people don't realize that they are manipulative, though. My ex-MM was one. He honestly did not see it in himself but he was an extremely manipulative man by anyone's standard. 2
Realist3 Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 My former relationship with a married man lasted for five years until I ended it. Even while I was in the middle of the relationship, I recognized that he was manipulative. But I couldn't get myself out until I learned more about manipulation and how it works. BTW I recognize and admit all of my own bad choices and my part in conducting the affair; nevertheless, his manipulation played a part in the bad choices I made. Sometimes manipulative men are cold, lying ***holes who know exactly what they're doing to you, and they know consciously that they don't love you and they're using you. They're deliberate fakers, but they make you feel loved, cherished, special. But, sometimes manipulative men don't consciously know that they're manipulating you, they actually believe that they love you, but they don't leave their wife because there is some reason that seems legitimate to them. A common manipulation is to do something for you that you didn't ask him to do, but after he does it he wants you to feel grateful to have him and grateful for what he did, and claims that his sacrifice shows he loves you. When I sold my house and downsized to an apartment, he helped me a lot, but I hadn't asked him, and I could've completed it without him via friends, family and hired movers. Another common manipulation is kindness, tenderness, listening, compliments, making you feel special. Some guys do this intentionally, like a scammer. But some manipulative guys convince themselves that they are talking and acting that way for your benefit, when actually it's for their own benefit. It's hard to discern, because their words and deeds do make you feel better. It seems so real and genuine. In some cases, it's all fake, but in other cases it's because the manipulative guy does a mind game on himself to believe what he's saying and doing is real. Another common manipulation is a "little boy lost", like Peter Pan syndrome. He is so sad and unhappy, and you're the only bright spot in his day, in his life. Just a phone call to you makes his whole day; seeing you helps him survive his crappy life. A lot of people in the world got dealt a crappy hand, and they could use your help. Ask yourself why you're helping him deal with the crappy hand he was dealt, but you're not helping your neighbor, co-worker, church member, friend or family member to deal with the crappy hand they got. It's because he's manipulating you. Go on the Internet and learn more about manipulative men; it will help you end your affair if you've been trying to end it but having a hard time sticking with your plan. So basically I have to assume anything any man does is or could be construed as manipulative. Not agreeing with this post at all. 7
bentleychic Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 So basically I have to assume anything any man does is or could be construed as manipulative. Not agreeing with this post at all. I do some of the things listed so by this theory we should assume anything ANYONE does is manipulative. This especially "Another common manipulation is kindness, tenderness, listening, compliments, making you feel special. " I tend to be kind, tender, listen, compliment and make people feel special that I love. I had no idea it was a manipulation rather than acts of love. 2
carhill Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 Sometimes manipulative men are cold, lying ***holes who know exactly what they're doing to you, and they know consciously that they don't love you and they're using you. They're deliberate fakers, but they make you feel loved, cherished, special. Yep, fakers (or 'maskers' as my exW called them) can certainly manipulate by deception through their faking. Usually time and getting to know reveals such truths, in any relationship. But, sometimes manipulative men don't consciously know that they're manipulating you, they actually believe that they love you, but they don't leave their wife because there is some reason that seems legitimate to them. This could be the case if they're good at compartmentalizing emotions and relationships. One indicator can be observing them becoming 'different people' in different circumstances, with little continuity. A common manipulation is to do something for you that you didn't ask him to do, but after he does it he wants you to feel grateful to have him and grateful for what he did, and claims that his sacrifice shows he loves you. When I sold my house and downsized to an apartment, he helped me a lot, but I hadn't asked him, and I could've completed it without him via friends, family and hired movers Transaction relationships, yep know those well. Real common with Hoovers. Some take payment in validation; others in barter of 'stuff'. The one commonality is there's always an angle, a target, an objective. Nothing is 'random'. Another common manipulation is kindness, tenderness, listening, compliments, making you feel special. Some guys do this intentionally, like a scammer. But some manipulative guys convince themselves that they are talking and acting that way for your benefit, when actually it's for their own benefit. It's hard to discern, because their words and deeds do make you feel better. It seems so real and genuine. In some cases, it's all fake, but in other cases it's because the manipulative guy does a mind game on himself to believe what he's saying and doing is real. This one is more difficult to discern, IMO, so I agree on that. Usually time and experience suss this out. I call it 'ersatz love'. The extreme version that I've experienced were those (MW's) who created the environment to 'let me love them'. I imagine it works the same with MM's Another common manipulation is a "little boy lost", like Peter Pan syndrome. He is so sad and unhappy, and you're the only bright spot in his day, in his life. Just a phone call to you makes his whole day; seeing you helps him survive his crappy life. Yep, that appearance tugs at the heartstrings and the natural nurturing style which most women possess. A lot of people in the world got dealt a crappy hand, and they could use your help. Ask yourself why you're helping him deal with the crappy hand he was dealt, but you're not helping your neighbor, co-worker, church member, friend or family member to deal with the crappy hand they got. It's because he's manipulating you. While experiences do differ, one can acknowledge the struggles of another without taking on an emotional content and investing in them. Over time, and aging, I came to view the dynamic as one of giving people 'a hand up' rather than a 'handout'. IOW, help those who help themselves. As my best friend puts it, 'invest in success', not in sob stories. There's always another sob story around the corner and some people have created a lifestyle out of marketing sob stories to fill their coffers, whether that be attention or cash or sex or anything else they value. Hoovers are great with sob stories. Go on the Internet and learn more about manipulative men; it will help you end your affair if you've been trying to end it but having a hard time sticking with your plan. IMO, being aware and accepting the real, even if it argues with one's emotions and attraction of the moment, facilitates making healthy, if sometimes difficult, decisions. Overall the way I see this dynamic is two-fold: 1. Look for movement; progression; actions which consistently, over time, indicate movement away from the prior relationship and into the new one 2. Look to trust, but verify. If verification is not forthcoming or flies in the face of parameters trusted, accept that and act on it decisively. Seen both sides of the fence, worked through the MM part in MC and that's my .02. YMMV. 3
Author lynn1954 Posted March 3, 2014 Author Posted March 3, 2014 Thank you to all who read and answered so far. I'm not a professional writer nor blogger, so my description of manipulation may not've been complete nor well-explained. Having been a victim of manipulation myself, I was offering that concept to any OWs who've been expressing that they want to end the affair, and/or they feel they are being used by their MM, and they can't figure out why they are too "weak" or other adjective to end it once and for all, or why they try NC and then MM breaks NC and they fall right back in it. That's why I suggested that one might look for other articles on the Internet about manipulation to better understand it. I guess I'd ask those of you who answered me, or someone who hasn't answered yet: whether you are trying to end your affair or not, do you feel that you are being manipulated by your MM? How do you know; what makes you feel that way; how do you define manipulation?
Hope Shimmers Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 I guess I'd ask those of you who answered me, or someone who hasn't answered yet: whether you are trying to end your affair or not, do you feel that you are being manipulated by your MM? How do you know; what makes you feel that way; how do you define manipulation? I define manipulation as behavior which is specifically directed (either knowingly or unknowingly) to obtaining a certain behavior or outcome from the person it's directed at. In the midst of the A it was hard for me to recognize although everyone else could see it and told me. For me, 'gaslighting' was the main problem, although there is certainly overlap in those behaviors.
whichwayisup Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 There's a difference between selfishly manipulating someone and maliciously manipulating someone. Most MM are selfishly manipulating. A cruel person is a cruel person, married or not. 1
Hope Shimmers Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 Yep, fakers (or 'maskers' as my exW called them) can certainly manipulate by deception through their faking. Usually time and getting to know reveals such truths, in any relationship. This could be the case if they're good at compartmentalizing emotions and relationships. One indicator can be observing them becoming 'different people' in different circumstances, with little continuity. Transaction relationships, yep know those well. Real common with Hoovers. Some take payment in validation; others in barter of 'stuff'. The one commonality is there's always an angle, a target, an objective. Nothing is 'random'. This one is more difficult to discern, IMO, so I agree on that. Usually time and experience suss this out. I call it 'ersatz love'. The extreme version that I've experienced were those (MW's) who created the environment to 'let me love them'. I imagine it works the same with MM's Yep, that appearance tugs at the heartstrings and the natural nurturing style which most women possess. While experiences do differ, one can acknowledge the struggles of another without taking on an emotional content and investing in them. Over time, and aging, I came to view the dynamic as one of giving people 'a hand up' rather than a 'handout'. IOW, help those who help themselves. As my best friend puts it, 'invest in success', not in sob stories. There's always another sob story around the corner and some people have created a lifestyle out of marketing sob stories to fill their coffers, whether that be attention or cash or sex or anything else they value. Hoovers are great with sob stories. IMO, being aware and accepting the real, even if it argues with one's emotions and attraction of the moment, facilitates making healthy, if sometimes difficult, decisions. Overall the way I see this dynamic is two-fold: 1. Look for movement; progression; actions which consistently, over time, indicate movement away from the prior relationship and into the new one 2. Look to trust, but verify. If verification is not forthcoming or flies in the face of parameters trusted, accept that and act on it decisively. Seen both sides of the fence, worked through the MM part in MC and that's my .02. YMMV. This is a very insightful post. I like what was said here about an 'objective'. How nothing is random. My ex-MM was EXTREMELY good at doing things that looked, on the outside, to be very generous and which put him in a good light. But he did absolutely nothing without having a reason behind it which would somehow benefit him. It took me a long time to see that when others who knew both of us saw it all the way through.
Author lynn1954 Posted March 3, 2014 Author Posted March 3, 2014 There's a difference between selfishly manipulating someone and maliciously manipulating someone. Most MM are selfishly manipulating. Yes, I agree, and this is one of the points I was trying to make. The MM is manipulating you to help himself, please himself, to solve whatever his issue is. His actions or words are not given unconditionally as love for you; they're given to produce an effect that benefits him.
LilGirlandOW Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 It's funny...sometimes people do these things purely and honestly...just to do them or say them...because they truly feel them. It doesn't necessarily make them manipulative. It doesn't make them "lines". Most things you have listed, would be "normal" and "acceptable" coming from a partner in a regular relationship. For example, I know my MM is my bright spot (in addition to my children, friends and my father). If I say that to him, does that make me manipulative or is that only the case when it comes from a MM/MW? MM/MW in A's are master manipulators, half the crap they say to their AP, they say to their SO, hence why they stay in their M, and carry on an A. Just some are better at gaslighting and sugar coating then others so the AP & SO both feel secure in their place in the MM/MW's life. The only way I'd believe a MM/MW carrying on two relationship is not a manipulator would be if he and his wife were in an open R and she knew about you. 1
spice4life Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) Hi Lynne1954. Thank you for posting this thread! I did exactly as you suggested and researched the subject and all I can say is WOW! What an eye opener. I now know what the h*ll happened to me. I found one site in particular that lays it all out and now there is no denying it. Thanks again!!! Edited March 3, 2014 by spice4life
spice4life Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 I just want to warn anyone who decides to Google this topic to be careful about what sites you read. It's best to get your info from PHds etc in psychology who are experts on the topic. There are sites out there that have information but it is not coming from professionals. Be careful because those sites can be misleading and trigger you.
wanting more Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 MM/MW in A's are master manipulators, half the crap they say to their AP, they say to their SO, hence why they stay in their M, and carry on an A. Just some are better at gaslighting and sugar coating then others so the AP & SO both feel secure in their place in the MM/MW's life. The only way I'd believe a MM/MW carrying on two relationship is not a manipulator would be if he and his wife were in an open R and she knew about you. So this means that now your mm (or whatever he is now) is not a "master manipulator" any longer? was he only giving you the 1/2 that wasn't crap so that's why you believed him? If I remember correctly you're with him now. I was not in an open relationship with my SO, neither did I tell xMM the same things I told my SO at home. Not even close. I was a MOW and didn't and don't consider myself a master manipulator. 1
Gunthar Posted March 3, 2014 Posted March 3, 2014 imho, 'crying manipulation' is all too easy, compared to digging deeper than you could possibly imagine and understanding the friend who became your AP. "Manipulator" is, to me, typically a lame, quick, and easy label to dehumanize a person in an all too human endeavor, usually used by hurt people who believe they were used/abused/whatever. I'm sure some percentage of MM out there are actually calculating their 'path' to the OW heart, but it's way smaller than any of us would imagine, I think. G 2
Author lynn1954 Posted March 3, 2014 Author Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) Gunthar, I agree with you that the number of consciously and maliciously manipulating people is probably not excessive, but the number of people who use manipulative behavior or could be described as "manipulators" is a much larger number. Not all of them are doing it consciously or maliciously, but yes, they are manipulative and it's not just a lame, quick, easy label, it's an accurate description of what they are doing. Not all MM in affairs are manipulative. But many of them are, so an OW who is troubled about her affair and wants to end it might help herself by learning more about genuine manipulative behavior, identifying it, etc. MM in affairs are not the only manipulative people. Some men and women manipulate their spouse, their friends, their family, their co-workers. Some adult children manipulate their parents. Some parents manipulate their adult children. In psychology, one can describe behaviors or symptoms that characterize a label. One can list typical behaviors of someone who is "depressed", or behaviors of someone who has "anxiety", or someone who is "narcissistic". Likewise, one can describe behaviors or symptoms of someone who is "manipulative" or "a manipulator". If an OW knows what the behaviors or symptoms of manipulation are, and she recognizes those behaviors in the MM of the affair, then "manipulative" is not a lame label, it's an accurate and valid description. Understanding it will help the OW to deal with it. Edited March 3, 2014 by lynn1954 1
Gunthar Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 So, what are say, 5, examples of less-than-obvious manipulation by a MM toward an OW?
Author lynn1954 Posted March 5, 2014 Author Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) A manipulative (whether malicious or merely selfish) person says: 1. You can't end our affair, I've done so many nice things for you, I've taken you to nice places, bought you dinners and gifts, don't you appreciate all the stuff I do for you... 2. You can't end our affair, I need you. You know my wife doesn't love me and I don't have anyone else in my life who cares about me and I won't be able to live without you, I'll be emotionally wrecked if you leave me... 3. You can't end our affair, because I love you extremely. You'll never find anyone else in the world who will love you as much as I do... 4. You can't end our affair, you're my soul mate and we belong together and I'm going to get a divorce so we can be together for real ... (said the 1st year of the affair, said the 2nd year of the affair, said the 3rd year of the affair, said the 4th year of the affair...) 5. etc. The manipulator may believe and feel every word above, but it's still manipulation. Edited March 5, 2014 by lynn1954 1
Gunthar Posted March 5, 2014 Posted March 5, 2014 I see apples and oranges between some of those examples. I think it's fairly obvious that when there's real needs being met willingly on behalf of both, and then its ripped away by one party, the one not wanting it ripped away is NOT manipulating. He/she is trying to restore something that gave them life; what is essentially a broken verbal contract to love and support each other. The unwilling party has the freedom to remain so. If the appeal is having an affect, it's probably because the AP is willing to consider and isn't sure they really don't want that person in that capacity any longer. But, call it whatever you want. I think it's a misuse of the word, given its general connotation. 2
goodyblue Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Manipulation is not what one does, but the spirit in which they do it. My guy does wonderful things every single day. Says he wont live without me, etc. and he does it out of love. He is not trying to manipulate. It seems like you want to feel better. 2
Quiet Storm Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 (edited) Manipulation is not what one does, but the spirit in which they do it. My guy does wonderful things every single day. Says he wont live without me, etc. and he does it out of love. He is not trying to manipulate. It seems like you want to feel better. That's not always true. My sister is a Borderline. Her manipulation stems from a fear of abandonment. She doesn't consciously do it. But her lack of evil intentions didn't prevent the damage that it has caused, to her son, my parents and various significant others. My sister is an extreme, but many people have these traits to a lesser degree. I think if you grow up in dysfunctional homes, manipulation can become your normal. Alcoholics are always lying and manipulating. Not to hurt those they love, but to hide their shame and protect their addiction. I think if we love a person, we should have their best interests at heart. I dont think it should be selfish. Even if it might hurt to let them go. Edited March 6, 2014 by Quiet Storm 1
Author lynn1954 Posted March 6, 2014 Author Posted March 6, 2014 Gunthar: It's okay if you don't think my comments about manipulation are accurate, just leave the thread alone to be useful to other forum members who've experienced the type of manipulation I'm describing, and who may find the comments and descriptions helpful and applicable to their situation. I didn't post it to get unanimous agreement for what I was saying, I posted it to help some OW whose MM may be exhibiting some or all of the behaviors which some people consider to be manipulation. I may very well be wrong, and if so the thread can be read and then ignored. I may be right, and if so the thread might help someone. If manipulation is not relevant to your situation, then just ignore my post about it, as you and I don't need to change each other's mind nor declare which one of us won the argument. 1
LilGirlandOW Posted March 6, 2014 Posted March 6, 2014 Is your MM manipulative? Here's how to know. simple answer.. He's carrying on multiple relationships. They have to be a master of manipulation, to keep the BS in the dark for sometimes years, and keep the OW as an OW for sometimes years. And yes, I think my MM included has definetly engaged in his fair share of manipulation, we were in a 1.5yr affair, like a close, tight, attentive, loving one.... he would go home to the BS, think he said "Hey dear! Sorry I'm late, my OW wanted to watch a movie after our love-making session".... lol doubt it. They all manipulate, weather is OW or xOW think so or not
RoseMadder Posted March 7, 2014 Posted March 7, 2014 I think all mm who cheat manipulate the w and the ow and in my dads case his kids as well. I'm a 29yo woman who has caught my dad having affairs before and covered for his lying ass because I'm a coward who can't beak my moms heart by telling her. The latest was a few weeks ago when I overheard him planning a trip with a woman he works with, he was telling her he loved her and all the usual bullmess. When he'd finished on the phone I confronted him and as usual he told me nothing was going on, when I told him I'd been in the bath and heard every word he broke down, crying, begging me not to tell my mom or brothers. He then called the woman who 5 minutes before he'd been declaring undying love for and told her it was over. Of course it's all the ow fault, she was easy, she was coming on to him, he felt sorry for her... Yeah, and I've got a piano playing hog. I suppose my point is that these men are natural born liars and will say whatever the **** they want if they think it'll get them what they want and/or keep them out of trouble. 1
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