I'm an idiot

[eye of the storm]

I am a new poster. And I am an idiot.

 

I am dating a married man. I started going out with him to...punish...I don't know who. Someone. I was angry and hurt that my 18 year marriage had been destroyed by infidelity. And somehow thought this would help. He never lied to me about his wife, never told me he wanted to leave her. He just told me that he liked things his wife didn't so he took his desires outside of his marriage. Many married men asked me out in the days after my marriage fell apart. Those men infuriated me. They told me they were unhappy with their marriage, they were getting ready to separate, all the many lies a cheater tells. But not this man. He was honest. So I thought, if he is not cheating with me, he will be cheating with someone else so it isn't me destroying his marriage. These are the lies I told myself. We started to date and it was just sex. Then we started having conversations before and after sex. Then we started spending more and more time together, months went by, then years. I'm still seeing him. But now I have fallen in love. He is still married, he still tells me he is not interested in leaving his wife. He still has never told me he loves me. But I was content There was no drama. we talk about everything, he listens. When we disagree, it is still calm and we both acknowledge that we both have the right to our own opinions and no feelings get hurt. Even if we cant come to an agreement we are still fine because we are both independent and are together by choice not by any bonds.

 

I have grown so much in the years since my marriage fell apart. I learned it wasn't destroyed by infidelity. Infidelity was the closing of the lid on the coffin, but Ex and I built the coffin over years of neglecting our marriage. Anger and distrust destroyed my marriage. I have learned the marriage fell apart for many reasons, I learned to take the responsibility for my part and my part only. I learned to forgive myself and to forgive Ex. Still working on forgiving the other woman but that is going to take probably many more years.

 

He tells me with his actions he cares for me, maybe even loves me. The dates we go on, he plans with such care. Always with my tastes and desires in mind. He touches me and kisses me like I hold the answers to the universe. Our sex life is explosive and frequent, 3-5 times a week depending on schedules. He spends more time with me than he does his wife. He holds my hand and talks/texts me all the time. I have never felt so cherished in a relationship. I go out of my way to please him, something I never did in my marriage. I learned the joy of giving to someone who appreciates the time and effort. He pushes my limits to get me to try new things, I have learned so much about myself and my needs and my limits with him. I have grown calmer and more confident with him.

 

I have fallen in love with someone who is fully capable of lying to his wife, why won't he lie to me? I am in love with someone who has always been honest that he needs sexual variety. I know he has dated other women during our time and it was fine. They were short term, I didn't know them, he told me about them, and he always came back to me. Talk about a fool's paradise.

 

Lately he has been interested in a friend of mine. This has caused problems for me. It brings up horrific memories to me. My ex husband cheated on me with my best friend. It was betrayal times 2. I lost both my husband and my best friend in one blow. Now, I am living thru it again. My roommate finally decided to not get involved with him because she is a decent person. But I still look at her and know that she was willing to sleep with him knowing about us. Knowing it upset me. It wasn't till she caught me crying that she decided our relationship was too important to damage. To be honest, I was wondering how we could stay as roommates with the anger and pain I felt. I think she thought about that too, coming home every day to a roommate that you have helped to destroy. He has apologized, he stated he wont pursue her anymore. For the first time ever, I don't believe him. I know...how did I ever trust him to begin with? But he never lied to me. He was always honest, until her. I know they both knew this was wrong because they both tried to hide it from me.

 

When he was trying to get her into bed, he told her I was making more of what we were than there was. We were just friends with benefits. He told her the jewelry I was wearing was just given in friendship. He told her I was ok with them. Then when I told him and her both that I was done with dating him. I refused to be a part of their triangle, she backed out to protect our relationship. He then started to pursue her even more. Telling her to meet him behind my back and that they didn't have to have sex, they could just hang out. He did all this telling her to not tell me. When he realized he was losing both of us, he came back to me. Full of apologies. Full of remorse for the damage he had done. Swore he wouldn't talk to her again behind my back. I went back to him. I don't trust him like I used to, but I went back to him.

 

I tried to pretend all was well but I just found out they went to lunch behind my back. He swears it was just lunch and they were in public the whole time. Part of me believes him, part of me wants to scream at the new layer of pain. Again, neither of them told me. I found out on my own and confronted him. He admitted it, explained that it was just a friendly lunch. I haven't told her I know. I wont be living with her forever, this is a temp solution and we will both be going back to our normal homes in a few months. Just have to keep acting like all is well. I don't hate her, she really is a nice person. I actually think it was just a friendly lunch. But when you add in the past...I just want to be done with this insane triangle.

 

I am trying to kill my love for him slowly, by constantly telling myself what he thinks about me. How he thinks I am just a body. How little he cared when I told him I didn't have a problem with him dating other women, I just had a problem with him dating a friend (esp a roommate!). His lies, how he talked about me behind my back. I think it is working. I no longer have to bite back the words when he touches me. I no longer look at him when he is asleep and whisper it into his chest. I feel pain when he is being romantic, I prefer the explosive sex to the times when he is tender. It hurts me when he touches me with such care. How can he have no feelings for me after all this time and touch me like that when I mean nothing to him. I just wish his words matched his actions. I wish he would touch me like he talks about me so I can kill my emotions so much faster. But he doesn't, he touches me like he can't help himself, like he needs me, like I am cherished. And that hurts.

 

I am trying to go back to the time, in the beginning when there were no emotions. Just sex. Fun fantastic sex. But, I think I am lying to myself again.

[TaraMaiden]

...Ok.

 

What is it you want from us?

[eye of the storm]

I think I just needed to actually spell it out. More for me than anything. Maybe to clarify. I don't really know. I'm just trying to get my head on straight.

[eye of the storm]

I know what I need to do. I just am fighting with myself about doing it. Until this incident with my friend, odd to say, this has been the healthiest relationship I have ever been in.

[whichwayisup]

You're consumed with your own pain that led you down the pathway to be an OW. You're helping this man betray and cheat on his wife - You know first hand what that pain is like, double betrayal yet you've set yourself up for a painful fall by having an A with a MM. This guy may be honest with you but he isn't leaving his wife. He likes having women on the side, including going after your friend. Glad she said no but the thing is, he isn't obligated or committed to you.

 

I hope you seek counseling to help you through this, deal with the pain and find "you" again so you can be happy and live a more peaceful life, one that doesn't include cheating at all. You deserve a loving and healthy relationship.

[KathyM]

You should value yourself more than being just one of his many women that he has sex with. You are romanticizing the relationship, whereas to him, you are just another woman willing to have sex with him. If he cared about you, he wouldn't be lieing to you and going behind your back to seduce your roommate. If he cared about his wife, he wouldn't be going behind her back and cheating on her with several women. He only cares about his own needs and desires. Don't mistake physical touch with truly caring about a person. He is only in this for the sex and the ego strokes. The fact that he badmouths you behind your back to your friend while continuing to get his needs met from you is pretty despicable.

[TaraMaiden]

I know what I need to do. I just am fighting with myself about doing it. Until this incident with my friend, odd to say, this has been the healthiest relationship I have ever been in.

 

What exactly are you fighting, and why?

Answer that, and further action may get easier....

[894hjk]

Of course he treats u like a princess and has u in mind with every detail he plans; he bloody well has to! At the end of the day he's married and is using u in one way or the other to get all HIS needs met!

 

He has to up his game for u as he knows he can never truly give u want u want...him.

 

A MM stole 3 of my childbearing years, never again.

move on.

[gettingstronger]

You can not go back to just sex. You care about this guy. You have wasted too much time on deadend relationships already. Your writing shows you are intelligent and insightful. Find a man that will cherish those things in you, is available and with whom you are sexually compatible. Anything less is selling yourself short.

[eye of the storm]

Tara, I am fighting leaving a relationship that, until this 1 incident, filled all my needs. A calm companion, someone who treats me like I have value, who touches me constantly (my exH was not a toucher), someone who gives me space when I need it, advice when I ask for it, and just a steady presence as a touchstone. He also frequently gives me a kick to keep me focused on my goals. He supports my goals, even when it takes away from him. I feel stronger knowing he is in my corner.

 

I know if I broke off the relationship with him, he would still be my friend and support me. With no repercussions. But I also know how easy and drama free our relationship is and I crave that like a drug.

 

I enjoy talking with him at the dinner table, doing dishes with him, waking up with him, watching the goofy way he makes breakfast. Losing that will suck on levels I don't want to think about.

 

I'm not jealous of the time he spends with his wife, I like having my weekends. I've never wanted or asked him to leave her. We have always had an open relationship. And I have never had an issue with his wife or his dating. He has never had a problem if I dated. I only had issues when he tried to date my roommate. it brought up bad memories from my marriage. I'm trying to decide if I am going to throw away 3+ yrs for one incident.

 

If this one thing had not happened, I would be continuing with him quite contentedly.

 

I've answered the question....still doesn't make it easier.

 

Like I said, I'm an idiot. I know what to do. At the moment, I just am having the trouble doing it.

 

I posted this to see my thoughts in black and white. I thought maybe actually saying it would clarify it. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

[jellybean89]

what would hurt me the most is how he went after your roommate...right under your nose. you talked about the double betrayal of your best friend and your ex; and here is a MM who knows about that and he is trying to bed your roommate.

 

That should piss you off. That should make you see what a piece of poop he is. It was 'bad enough' he was having sex with others besides you; but to go after your roommate? And you took him back? Why? As you well know, he is a master manipulator. I don't believe for one minute that he and your roommate are 'just friends'. There is more there - they just aren't telling you.

 

Want more for yourself. Want more than to be just one of the many who have sex with him. Chose a healthier life.

[TaraMaiden]

Why is it that when a woman has a man who shows interest in ANOTHER woman - that anger is focussed on this other woman, rather than on the man>?

 

he's a lying cheater!

 

What on earth made you think that if he cheated with you, he wouldn't cheat ON you??

 

You may sever relations, gradually with this woman, if your living arrangements change.

But this man, you're intent on sticking with.

 

if not her - someone else.

 

And you know what?

 

That's his choice.

His prerogative.

He's cheating on his wife.

 

Because he can.

 

And he can cheat on you, should he want to.

 

Because he can.

 

he doesn't owe you fidelity.

he doesn't owe you a damn thing actually.

 

You'd better get your head round this: Your friend has more consideration and respect for you, than he has, hitherto.

But if she does end up in bed with him,, she has as much right to do that as you have.

[Hope Shimmers]

You are clearly a very intelligent and articulate woman based on your posts. Quite the opposite of an 'idiot', as you claim to be.

 

It is clear from your words what you get out of the relationship and why you stay. In my opinion, what you should think further about is your statement that everything was perfect UNTIL he started pursuing your friend/roommate. You said that except for that "one incident", everything would still be great.

 

The thing is, that wasn't just "one incident", or some kind of mistake that will never happen again. That is this man showing you what he truly is - someone who would have enough disregard for your feelings that he would do such a thing. That is not one mistake - it is something that he would do again and again in the future given the opportunity, because he sees nothing wrong with it. In fact, all of his actions in terms of how he is cheating on his W with multiple woman illustrate this, but you are just not seeing that part of it because it wasn't directly affecting you until now.

 

I guarantee you - you can find a SINGLE man who will touch you, be attentive and sensitive to your needs, etc. who you will fall in love with. The truth is, those qualities that you are romanticizing in this man are not real - not given his selfish behavior. He loves himself and no one else.

[Darren Steez]

.

But if she does end up in bed with him,, she has as much right to do that as you have.

 

This. Gold

[eye of the storm]

Tara, my anger is not focused on my roommate, I liked her before this, Ill like her after this. My feelings got hurt. But she showed me what kind of person she is when she backed off.

 

Being in an open relationship suited me. I felt trapped for 18+ years and I never want to feel like that again. I like that we both can come and go with no issues. When he first started pursuing her, in his mind it was ok and within the parameters of our relationship. You can't cheat in an open relationship. You just need to be honest. I told him I had boundary issues with it, that is when it went behind my back.

 

Hope and Gettingstronger, I do care about him, more than we agreed on. I love him. He has given me more than he will ever realize. And I know if I cut off the sex, I wont lose him as a friend. That is at least a comfort.

 

I know he regrets chasing my roommate. He regrets the pain he caused me, the pain he caused her, and the loss of camaraderie we all had. They had been casual friends prior to this and now everyone of us is awkward with each other. He knows and acknowledges it is his fault.

 

Maybe, you right, because his need for sexual variety never affected me personally, I didn't care. And the weird thing is not that he tried to date my roommate. Its that he talked about me like all the years and the time we spend together was nothing. Like I was just a convenience to him.

 

I'm not angry at him. Again, hurt feelings and pride. I made a mistake and fell in love. I've gained a lot from knowing him and being with him. So I am not going to taint it by screaming "he done me wrong" because he really didn't. I went into this with my eyes open. I went into this for my own reasons. Right or wrong, they were mine.

 

He has never strayed from our agreed upon arrangement, I did. I fell in love and I put restrictions on who he could date.

 

I also need to end things. Neither of us signed on for this. I hate messy emotions as much as he does and mine have gotten very tangled.

 

Ill talk to him tonight at dinner, lay everything out, and we will discuss the new direction.

 

I appreciate the opportunity to get my thoughts straightened.

[cocorico]

I am trying to go back to the time, in the beginning when there were no emotions. Just sex. Fun fantastic sex. But, I think I am lying to myself again.

 

 

Eye you are not an idiot. But you are attached. Undoing that attachment will be very difficult, if at all possible. Many APs who start out NSA find out that they become attached - sometimes it happens symmetrically, and they land up together; other times not, and someone gets hurt. It seems in this case you got more attached than he did, even to the extent of investing his actions with "caring" or "love" that he may or may not have intended in that way. You are looking for evidence of reciprocity of your level of caring and seeing what you want to find, whether or not it is what he truly feels.

 

Because you care more than he does, there s now an asymmetry in your R. He will henceforth hold more power than you do, and you will be more invested in its perpetuation than he is. There is already evidence of this in your reluctance to make a clean break, your rationalising about how well it used to meet your needs, and all the other ways in which he is right for you.

 

That will only get worse. You will become clingy. You will want more and not get it. He will start to feel your grip tighten and he will invest less and less, and will pursue others. This may already be what he was doing with your roommate, sending you a message that you are over investing.

 

You can't go back - but there are many ways of going forward. I suspect that staying in a R - any kind of R, even friendship - with him will keep you wanting the things you cannot have from him. In your M, when your H had an A, you lost power, as he checked out ahead of you. Now you are in the same position. Is that really where you want to be?

[travelbug1996]

I know what I need to do. I just am fighting with myself about doing it. Until this incident with my friend, odd to say, this has been the healthiest relationship I have ever been in.

 

 

You don't need to be in a relationship with anyone. You suffered a betrayal and turned around and hurt another woman who hadn't done anything to you (his wife). Now you keep going back for more where there is only less.

 

Take some time off and heal. You are broken and I mean that in the most compassionate way. Sex is not love.

Edited March 2, 2014 by travelbug1996

[thinkingofhim]

I think you should spend some time being single and try to figure out what you want from a new relationship. Disregarding the Affair stuff, if you just wanted sex this sounds like the perfect man... but now that you want more, this relationship is just not a good fit.

 

Has anyone EVER successfully scaled back a relationship to just sex once there was love involved? Lol

[rumbleseat]

Being with mm sounds " safe". If you never get too attached to him, he could ever hurt you the way your h did.

 

Unfortuneately, you have gotten attached and he is hurting you the same way your h did.

 

The difference between him and your h is that your mm knows about your past, knows you were hurt then turns arounds and does the exact same thing to you. He lies the same way, and eve though he knows it would hurt you and you asked him not to do it he still saw your roommate, friendly lunch or otherwise

 

This guy sounds like the absolute idiot. Not you

 

Is he that able to control himself that he couldn't find some different woman to hit on besides your roommate and friend? Or is he totally able to control himself and he did it anyway because he either didn't care about your feelings or he got some kind of a thrill out of hurting you?

 

Either way. He sounds like an absolute winner to me. you will never be able to trust him, and if he is willing to hurt you to get his needs met, is he really so done you need in your life? That is not how you treat a friend.

[TaraMaiden]

Tara, my anger is not focused on my roommate, I liked her before this, Ill like her after this. My feelings got hurt. But she showed me what kind of person she is when she backed off.

well, not to play devil's advocate, but if she agreed to back off, she should never have had a subsequent meal with him, either....

 

Being in an open relationship suited me. I felt trapped for 18+ years and I never want to feel like that again.

sadly, you created your own 'entrapment' through the intensity of your feelings...

 

I like that we both can come and go with no issues.

That of course, under scrutiny, isn't really true....

 

When he first started pursuing her, in his mind it was ok and within the parameters of our relationship. You can't cheat in an open relationship. You just need to be honest. I told him I had boundary issues with it, that is when it went behind my back.

The problem is, these were YOUR issues.

not his.

if you had problems with that, it's exactly what they were - YOUR problems.

 

I do care about him, more than we agreed on. I love him. He has given me more than he will ever realize. And I know if I cut off the sex, I wont lose him as a friend. That is at least a comfort.

You can't cut him off the sex AND keep him as a friend - at least, not until you attain a level of indifference to him.

To keep a former sexual partner as a 'friend' if you still have feelings for them, is a complete no-no.

 

I know he regrets chasing my roommate. He regrets the pain he caused me, the pain he caused her, and the loss of camaraderie we all had. They had been casual friends prior to this and now everyone of us is awkward with each other. He knows and acknowledges it is his fault.

No, it's not.

The fact that your feelings intensified to the point that you considered a liaison between them as a 'boundary issue', is your baggage to handle. Not theirs.

As an affair partner, who according to your words 'can come and go with no issues', he had every right to do whatever he wanted, with whomever he wanted. The awkwardness was down to your jealousy and resentment.

 

Maybe, you right, because his need for sexual variety never affected me personally, I didn't care. And the weird thing is not that he tried to date my roommate. Its that he talked about me like all the years and the time we spend together was nothing. Like I was just a convenience to him.

sadly, this is the reality of every AP. A married person has an affair with an outsider, because it affords them the convenience of being able to come and go with no ties, no strings attached.

This is what it is.

A lot of the time, feelings DO develop between the two, and they do establish a complicated relationship - complicated, because the whole point of having an affair is because the sex is great, and there are no commitments or obligations, and feelings are nor 'intended' to develop to muddy the waters.

Sadly, it seems your feelings outran his, to the point they lapped them.

 

I'm not angry at him. Again, hurt feelings and pride. I made a mistake and fell in love. I've gained a lot from knowing him and being with him. So I am not going to taint it by screaming "he done me wrong" because he really didn't. I went into this with my eyes open. I went into this for my own reasons. Right or wrong, they were mine.

 

He has never strayed from our agreed upon arrangement, I did. I fell in love and I put restrictions on who he could date.

This saddens me for you.

Clearly your emotional investment far outweighed his.

I'm sorry it did this to you. For your heart's sake.

 

I also need to end things. Neither of us signed on for this. I hate messy emotions as much as he does and mine have gotten very tangled.

 

Ill talk to him tonight at dinner, lay everything out, and we will discuss the new direction.

'New direction' would actually entail telling him it's over, and separating from him completely. it will kill you to do anything less.

You can't do this by half-measures, or even a little bit at a time.

The only way to facilitate healing and moving on, is to rip this up good and proper, finally, once and for all.

 

That's really what hurts so badly, right now, I would guess....

 

I appreciate the opportunity to get my thoughts straightened.

Please don't think I'm 'bitching' down on you.

I'm a straight-from-the-hip merchant, and I don't mean to be hurtful - but I know this whole thing smarts.

To the bones.

[Quiet Storm]

Now you are saying he didn't do you wrong, but he did.

 

The way he trivialized your relationship to your friend really hurt your feelings. You keep saying he will always be your friend. .. friends don't do that. He doesn't have your best interests at heart.

 

Now you are rationalizing it away. Listen to yourself. Denying, minimizing, justifying. Its our brain's way of protecting us from truths we can't handle.

 

You aren't strong enough to let him go, so you are bargaining with yourself, trying to make his actions that really hurt you...not so bad.

 

He meets a lot of emotional needs for you, he touches you, makes you feel special, relaxed, comfortable. Does it matter if his words are genuine? Is all that still valuable to you if he's like that with all his women? You know he dates other women but you assumed from his actions that you meant more than the others. But he sees women as interchangeable. You are not the only one swayed by his words, touches and "friendship". He knows how to foster those feelings of connection so that each woman feels like the special one.

 

Hopefully you will begin to absorb the truth soon. This man is not your friend.

[thinkingofhim]

Now you are saying he didn't do you wrong, but he did.

 

The way he trivialized your relationship to your friend really hurt your feelings. You keep saying he will always be your friend. .. friends don't do that. He doesn't have your best interests at heart.

 

Now you are rationalizing it away. Listen to yourself. Denying, minimizing, justifying. Its our brain's way of protecting us from truths we can't handle.

 

You aren't strong enough to let him go, so you are bargaining with yourself, trying to make his actions that really hurt you...not so bad.

 

He meets a lot of emotional needs for you, he touches you, makes you feel special, relaxed, comfortable. Does it matter if his words are genuine? Is all that still valuable to you if he's like that with all his women? You know he dates other women but you assumed from his actions that you meant more than the others. But he sees women as interchangeable. You are not the only one swayed by his words, touches and "friendship". He knows how to foster those feelings of connection so that each woman feels like the special one.

 

Hopefully you will begin to absorb the truth soon. This man is not your friend.

 

I have to disagree with you that he trivialized their relationship. If its been this long and he has never said he's going to leave, always insisted on an open affair relationship where he can date multiple OW, never told her I love you... clearly, to him, their relationship IS trivial, and it IS "just a friendship" with sex involved.

 

I don't think he was trivializing. I think he was being honest. I think that is an honest assessment of how he views their relationship.

[eye of the storm]

thinkingofhim, you nailed it on the head. It is not his fault his honesty hurt my feelings.

 

My feelings are my responsibility. Mine to deal with.

 

He has never promised me anything, he has never verbalized to me any emotional attachment, he has always been honest about his needs.

 

I just got too comfortable and forgot that we both wanted a friendly stress free relationship. And that is what it was until my baggage got in the way.

 

I am still going to remain friends with him. We talked and he is ok with it. Not thrilled obviously, but ok. He understood. Told me he was still going to leave my roommate alone because he knew it would upset me. Stress free. That is what I like about him.

 

I'll miss the sex, Ill miss having him under foot constantly, I'll miss the feelings I had when he just held my hand. But I'll get over it.

[Realist3]

Just a guess, but I would say he is not going to leave the roommate alone. You are getting replaced by her.

[Artie Lang]

first he cheats on his wife- with you -then he has the audacity to proposition your roommate? why you would even consider staying in such a relationship is beyond me.

 

 

sounds to me like you have some severe self-esteem issues stemming from the double-betrayal you experienced and are coping by becoming this guy's OW. You say he's very supportive of your goals and generally makes you feel valued, correct? all i see is an opportunist who is taking advantage of your vulnerability.

 

ask yourself this: is this really a healthy situation?

 

 

if you know what's good for, you'd get out NOW!