boundaries

[glow worm]

quick background: the A has been going on for over 4 years now. We rarely have overnight dates for obvious reasons, but his partner travels by herself every so often, mostly short trips, for various reasons. These are our chances to have the luxury of unlimited time together.

 

So, she is out of town for a couple of days this week, on business this time. My committed man (CM) came to pick me up last night for dinner after he finished work, like we usually do when his partner is away. BUT, this time he showed up in her car! He's never done this in 4 years. I was appalled, and asked him why he didn't drive his own car. He said because his is bigger, and she needed to fit lots of stuff in it for the business trip, so she took it.

 

I was incredibly uncomfortable as we drove around for the next 45 minutes selecting a restaurant. For one, I was terrified of shedding a hair, leaving a smudge of my lip gloss, or a whiff of my perfume. But most importantly, I had an extremely uncomfortable sense of violating her personal space. This may be really hard to understand, especially for the BS's out there, but I see her as an innocent victim in this A, she's done nothing wrong, in fact she seems like a great person to me. And just because her partner is choosing to date and sleep with me, that doesn't mean that she deserves to have her personal space violated. This is a boundary for me that I would have never chosen to cross, and if he would have told me ahead of time that riding in her car was the only option, I would have suggested that we walk somewhere, or take the bus, or even stay in at my place and order pizza. (I don't have a car, I live in the inner city where it's completely unnecessary for me to own one. It helps me save money on living expenses while in med school.)

 

Anyway, my question is: am I really weird or out of line for feeling this way? I told CM that I wasn't happy with the situation. He was understanding but was completely surprised when I told him, he said that it never crossed his mind that I would be uncomfortable with riding in her car. Do any other OWs feel similar boundaries? It really made me feel like an awful person.

[whichwayisup]

It's good you have those boundaries. Stick to them, listen to your gut and if somewhere along the way you start to continually feel worse about his wife, end the affair. Helping him hurt her this way, sooner or later you two will get caught.

 

Some OW don't have boundaries, and they don't care, they will go into the marital home, have sex in the marital bed, be around their kids.

 

He can't understand it because he is the one cheating on her, betraying his vows, sharing his body etc.

 

Does he take his ring off when you two are together?

[Daisy2013]

 

Does he take his ring off when you two are together?

 

If I may ask, what would his removal of the ring when with him mean?

[glow worm]

whichwayisup, No ring because they're not legally married. They've been domestic partners for 14+ years now, though, and their lives are intertwined more than a lot of married people I know (they even own and operate their own business together and work together every day, all day.) I think all the same rules apply; just because they didn't have a wedding day with vows doesn't make it okay for him to cheat on her.

 

Given the length and nature of his relationship with her, I initially suspected he might be lying to me about not being married to her. But some internet stalking turned up evidence that he wasn't lying, they really weren't married.

 

I know the most moral thing to do would have been to end the relationship once I found out he wasn't single. But the feelings were already so deep and I was too weak to end it. But I never wanted to be an OW.

[whichwayisup]

If I may ask, what would his removal of the ring when with him mean?

 

Some MM take their rings off. There was an OW who said she makes him take his ring off when they are together.

[whichwayisup]

whichwayisup, No ring because they're not legally married. They've been domestic partners for 14+ years now, though, and their lives are intertwined more than a lot of married people I know (they even own and operate their own business together and work together every day, all day.) I think all the same rules apply; just because they didn't have a wedding day with vows doesn't make it okay for him to cheat on her.

 

Given the length and nature of his relationship with her, I initially suspected he might be lying to me about not being married to her. But some internet stalking turned up evidence that he wasn't lying, they really weren't married.

 

I know the most moral thing to do would have been to end the relationship once I found out he wasn't single. But the feelings were already so deep and I was too weak to end it. But I never wanted to be an OW.

 

They are a family and are common law. Do you know if they have Wills? I assume they do since their lives are entwined so much. He certainly is risking everything...

 

I'm in Canada, the privacy laws are different here, so it really blows me away the stuff I hear that you can find online about someone in the US.

 

How long have you two been having an affair?

[Speakingofwhich]

Your feelings about the incident seem normal to me, OP.

 

I would think being in her car would not only have felt as if you were invading her space but also have been a constant reminder of her and the fact that he was someone else's SO.

 

He was comfortable being in the car because he's accustomed to riding in it.

[wanting more]

I completely understand this feeling. xMM would always be in his car and then he had issues and had to use his BW car. When he drove up to mine I just sat kind of dumbfounded. I wouldn't get in it. He did get in mine and we just sat and talked. He didn't understand my feelings. But then again he would always mention about wanting to come to my house when my BSO was away. It Never did happen.

[SugarHibiscus]

I picked up my OM in my H's car this weekend (for the first time ever).

 

He rolled his eyes at me and asked "What's next? Sex in his bed? A man's car is sacred." Ok? His wife is not? Silly. I may think it's silly because I'm always in it. To OM, it was strange. IDK.

 

OP...my OM would be on your side in this debate.

[glow worm]

Thank you for your comments everyone, it's really helped me sort this out in my mind to know what others think about the same issue.

 

whichwayisup, we have been having an affair for 4 years. nearly 3 years physical, the first year was an EA with phone sex. I didn't find out that he was a committed man until many months after I met him (but I'm not victimizing myself I take full responsibility for not ending it right then and there.) Yeah, they're probably common-law married, I'm not sure what the laws are like around here. As far as the online privacy stuff, I didn't really find anything too personal. But I looked up their business and saw evidence such as the fact that they use different last names, and comments from their clients refer to them as "partners" rather than "husband and wife team" or "married."

 

also, I don't know about the wills, etc. I've never asked. And yes, they are definitely family, they've been together so long and integrated their lives together, he's mentioned once that he's a godfather to a couple of her nieces and nephews.

Edited February 26, 2014 by glow worm
forgot to answer a question

[Realist3]

quick background: the A has been going on for over 4 years now. We rarely have overnight dates for obvious reasons, but his partner travels by herself every so often, mostly short trips, for various reasons. These are our chances to have the luxury of unlimited time together.

 

So, she is out of town for a couple of days this week, on business this time. My committed man (CM) came to pick me up last night for dinner after he finished work, like we usually do when his partner is away. BUT, this time he showed up in her car! He's never done this in 4 years. I was appalled, and asked him why he didn't drive his own car. He said because his is bigger, and she needed to fit lots of stuff in it for the business trip, so she took it.

 

I was incredibly uncomfortable as we drove around for the next 45 minutes selecting a restaurant. For one, I was terrified of shedding a hair, leaving a smudge of my lip gloss, or a whiff of my perfume. But most importantly, I had an extremely uncomfortable sense of violating her personal space. This may be really hard to understand, especially for the BS's out there, but I see her as an innocent victim in this A, she's done nothing wrong, in fact she seems like a great person to me. And just because her partner is choosing to date and sleep with me, that doesn't mean that she deserves to have her personal space violated. This is a boundary for me that I would have never chosen to cross, and if he would have told me ahead of time that riding in her car was the only option, I would have suggested that we walk somewhere, or take the bus, or even stay in at my place and order pizza. (I don't have a car, I live in the inner city where it's completely unnecessary for me to own one. It helps me save money on living expenses while in med school.)

 

Anyway, my question is: am I really weird or out of line for feeling this way? I told CM that I wasn't happy with the situation. He was understanding but was completely surprised when I told him, he said that it never crossed his mind that I would be uncomfortable with riding in her car. Do any other OWs feel similar boundaries? It really made me feel like an awful person.

 

 

You are fcking her husband and you are worried about crossing boundaries of riding in a vehicle?

[Realist3]

I'm not judging you fcking her husband; I just think you might be a little too sensitive here.

 

My wife and I own 8 vehicles. She has her favorite 3 she drives. Some times I may drive one of those. She has driven all of them. It is not 'her' car. It is both of ours.

[2sunny]

It may be best to take a close look at all of YOUR boundaries.

 

Or lack of.

 

Obviously, the car is low on the list compared to what you are doing with him the past 4 years.

 

 

And he sees you more while she's away. Shows you she is his priority when she is in town.

 

Assess long term goals for yourself. You want this for yourself in 10 or 20 years? Keep doing the same things.

 

Or take a stand on a solid, healthy boundary FOR YOURSELF and take action to make it end.

 

That way you could spend time and energy with a man who makes you his top priority.

 

 

We train others how to treat us - you've trained him to treat you poorly.

 

Best way is to learn how not to settle any longer.

[glow worm]

Realist and Arimedes, your response is part of why I posted in the first place, because I was wondering if anyone else would understand my feeling so uncomfortable in this situation, because I'm still trying to figure it out myself, I mean obviously I'm already having an affair with her significant other so why would I have a problem riding in her car?

 

Anyway, I guess my subconscious just feels completely differently about him coming over into "my world", and dating me and sleeping with me in my personal space, versus me invading "her world", and her personal space, and riding around with her significant other in her car. I suppose it is silly. But I feel it's one thing to be sucked into an affair, head over heels with emotion; but it is so much worse to have complete disregard and disrespect for her when she is the innocent party here. I know it sounds ridiculous to some, since I'm sleeping with her SO, but I really do feel bad for her. The bottom line I suppose, to be completely honest with myself, is that I don't feel bad enough to end the relationship with a man who I love more than I've ever loved anyone before, even my ex-fiance. I admit I'm a flawed human being and it's very selfish of me to consider my own feelings above hers. But here I am.

[glow worm]

2sunny thank you for reading and for your post.

 

I absolutely agree with you that she is his number one priority. She should be, she's his SO. I've never asked him to leave her, we've never "future faked." Although I love him, I am not even sure if we would work out together in a real relationship for various reasons (for example he doesn't ever want children, and I do.)

 

But yeah, I also agree with you that I should re-think my own personal boundaries. Thank you for your thoughts.

Edited February 26, 2014 by glow worm

[ComingInHot]

Hey glow worm,

I can see this whole 'car' this has thrown you in your A w/CM. Along with some pretty insightful comments from other posters, it sounds like now you may be thinking of More than what started with CM picking you up in His Life Partner's car (which by the way, I totally agree with your thoughts about you feeling you have now "invaded" her life by way of personal space and property. .. ick*) with regards to the A. Good for you on that.

 

Have a couple questions ...

Have you ever thought, at least recently thought what it would be like to Not have to be upset and bothered by things like "who's" car your friend is going to pick you up in? Or plan out your times together so you and he won't get caught or busted? Or if you're wearing too much perfume? It all seems SO stressful when, to me, these kind of things Shouldn't be, not to mention hurtful to the self esteem.

 

Also, 4 years seems like a loooong time to be carrying on like this, with someone already taken or committed. So I'm wondering sincerely, after 4 years, could this A have become a habit? Maybe I mean like an integrated part of your life to a point where it's easier in a habitual sort of way rather than end or Break things with something that's become routine ?

[Sub]

You said she seems like a great person, an innocent victim. This may be off-topic, but why is he having an A?

[MissBee]

quick background: the A has been going on for over 4 years now. We rarely have overnight dates for obvious reasons, but his partner travels by herself every so often, mostly short trips, for various reasons. These are our chances to have the luxury of unlimited time together.

 

So, she is out of town for a couple of days this week, on business this time. My committed man (CM) came to pick me up last night for dinner after he finished work, like we usually do when his partner is away. BUT, this time he showed up in her car! He's never done this in 4 years. I was appalled, and asked him why he didn't drive his own car. He said because his is bigger, and she needed to fit lots of stuff in it for the business trip, so she took it.

 

I was incredibly uncomfortable as we drove around for the next 45 minutes selecting a restaurant. For one, I was terrified of shedding a hair, leaving a smudge of my lip gloss, or a whiff of my perfume. But most importantly, I had an extremely uncomfortable sense of violating her personal space. This may be really hard to understand, especially for the BS's out there, but I see her as an innocent victim in this A, she's done nothing wrong, in fact she seems like a great person to me. And just because her partner is choosing to date and sleep with me, that doesn't mean that she deserves to have her personal space violated. This is a boundary for me that I would have never chosen to cross, and if he would have told me ahead of time that riding in her car was the only option, I would have suggested that we walk somewhere, or take the bus, or even stay in at my place and order pizza. (I don't have a car, I live in the inner city where it's completely unnecessary for me to own one. It helps me save money on living expenses while in med school.)

 

Anyway, my question is: am I really weird or out of line for feeling this way? I told CM that I wasn't happy with the situation. He was understanding but was completely surprised when I told him, he said that it never crossed his mind that I would be uncomfortable with riding in her car. Do any other OWs feel similar boundaries? It really made me feel like an awful person.

 

I felt similarly.

 

As contradictory as it was I didn't have the A to compete with or hurt her and I did often think about how hurtful or terrible certain things would be should she find out or if she "only knew." I did have boundaries. I was never in a situation like you've described but I know for a fact I wouldn't have gone for anything like that.

 

A large part of why I could be in the A was that because we were long distance and they also didn't live together, helped things to be very separate and I never had to sneak around or be in her space and feel uncomfortable about it. But definitely, if I had to confronted with things like that I wouldn't have at all been able to tolerate it. And as contradictory as it sounds, he actually went out of his way to be respectful of her (as much as possible given the situation). He never spoke badly about her and seemed to go out of his way to keep things separate and not do anything like that...I think for him in his mind as he expressed, he loved her and he loved me too, so he tried to allot "our relationship" the same "respect" he gave theirs and vice-versa.

Edited February 26, 2014 by MissBee

[MissBee]

I'm not judging you fcking her husband; I just think you might be a little too sensitive here.

 

My wife and I own 8 vehicles. She has her favorite 3 she drives. Some times I may drive one of those. She has driven all of them. It is not 'her' car. It is both of ours.

 

The way I see the difference is that even though someone is your spouse you do not "own them" in the same way you own your vehicle or your home or other property. You have a relationship and loyalties with people but ultimately, they control themselves and their bodies. In relationships you agree if you're monogamous not to sleep with other people or share certain things with others that aren't your partner, but one cannot enforce it in the same way and the other person still has free will to honor you or betray you.

 

So for me, while my spouse is my spouse, he wouldn't be mine in the sense that my car or house is mine and if he wants to sleep with other women, while upsetting to me, I see his penis as his and not something I control. My car though, my house, things of that nature are MY property and I have every right and control to determine them as my space that others shouldn't violate. That's how I saw it and still see it. He didn't belong to her in the same way, say her house belonged to her. He was betraying her but his body wasn't really her "space" in the sense that a car she bought is or home she lived in is.

[bentleychic]

Vehicles to bother me b/c they share them equally.

 

I DO have boundaries (never been to or in their house, etc. and never will while they're together), but riding in their vehicle isn't a blip on my radar.

[Sub]

Once discovery happens, and the pain hits the BS, they're going to need and seek out every "safe" place they can to have as their own while they process what's going on. If nothing's off limits - the car, the house you share, the bed you share - it just makes those safe places fewer and farther between, IMO.

[glow worm]

these replies are really insightful. sorry it's been a few hours (time difference between my country and the country I think most posters here on LS live in.)

 

bentley, I guess technically both cars belong to both of them, but it's not a shared equally situation. For example, it started raining a bit and he didn't know how to turn the wipers on. That's how rarely he uses that car, it really is "hers."

 

Sub, he is having an A because he was feeling bored in the relationship and that he wasn't experiencing all that life has to offer while being in the relationship. It might be a MLC type of thing, he's nearly 40. He's never talked badly of her, and he thinks their relationship might be going through a "phase" and that it will rekindle someday. From what I can see there isn't really any negativity in their relationship, just boredom. He says he doesn't think he should throw away all of their time they've been together and built a life together just because he's bored right now.

 

MissBee, your thoughts are exactly what I was thinking as to the difference between his body and her other possessions such as house, car. I was just afraid to write it because I thought too many people would be critical. But I do see him as an individual who is capable of making his own decisions what he does with his body (even if it's a bad decision and he's betraying her trust.) that's different than invading her car and house.

[glow worm]

CIH,

 

your post is really insightful. I actually had a really deep talk with him about the A last night (which we had dinner at my place rather than going out in her car.) It was an unprecedented honest and open conversation.

 

For me the A isn't habit, it's become more and more passionate every week. I can't imagine my life without him. I don't ever want to not be in a relationship with him, even if it's just an A relationship (how f***ed up is that?) I'm so devastated. I'm considering starting a new thread about it, I need advice and it really doesn't have anything to do with the original topic. I'm hurting to the point of not wanting to live anymore (not that I would actually commit suicide, but this is how I feel right now.) It turns out he has feelings for me and really likes me too but says that we will never ever be together even if he left her because he knows that he isn't good enough for me. He doesn't think it would work, he says, because I'm 13 years younger, I'm going to be a doctor in a couple of years, whereas he is older and self-employed laid-back surfer guy, and get this, he even said that the fact that he is cheating on his partner right now and for the past 4 years makes him not up to high enough standard for me.

 

Why is it so hard for me to decide to just go NC? Well, if I'm completely honest with myself, I fell for him so hard that I moved here, halfway across the globe, to another country, for the chance to be with him. I rationalized my move with all kinds of other reasons, but I know this is the real one. If the A ends, I'm still stuck in this country, since I'm enrolled in a 4 year medical program here. I feel so, so, so, so stupid. Why did I get myself into this. I see no way out of it now.

[ComingInHot]

Awe glow worm I'm sorry

It hurts when the person we know we love gives us "reasons" why things won't work out. Honestly though, I think you should take to heart what he is telling you. From that stand point try to decide what you Know in your HEAD is right and healthy for you now and in the long run*

If you don't mind, I'm going to dislike this man for you.

 

Maybe keep it simple (even though I KNOW A's are "complicated":

A.) He's been with his partner for 14+ years

B.) He's been cheating on her for 4

C.) His goals are NOT in line with Your goals

D.) He has point blank Told you, the 2 of you are not and will never be anything more than an A Secret

The above are the facts...

My personal assessment of his personality is that he is a manipulative, self entitled, self loving, turd that is only thinking about meeting his own needs At the expense of 2 beautiful, intelligent women (hopefully just 2) that (I believe) really do Deserve BETTER than him... but that's just me posting only on what you've written*

 

I believe that you Are intelligent enough to know that when you put everything together and see the full picture, a drastic and healthy Change will be made.

When you diagnose a patient with an illness, is it Not before you have checked out the overall condition and life habits of the individual and Before Rx'ing the the treatment?

[glow worm]

thanks so much CIH.

 

it really does help to look at it from that "plain and simple", outside point of view. It seems so much clearer that way than when he tells me that we can never be together while he is cuddling me, running his fingers through my hair, and kissing my forehead. How can he be so affectionate and at the same time not want us to be together forever? He's even suggested that if it's easier for me we can scale back to an EA, and just meet up for coffee, breakfast, lunch, beach dates, whatever. So he's not just after sex. He wants to set a definite end date (18 months from now when I graduate) and this doesn't make sense to me because if he wants to end it 18 months from now (and he has suggested no more sex, so he's not trying to continue for sex) why doesn't he just want to end it now?

 

I know I need to make a drastic change. I really hope I have the strength to do it soon. I'm really struggling because being in this entire country reminds me of him, I just want to run away back to the US, back to my family and my best friends and the life I had before the A, but I can't right now and all my support systems are half a world away.