krazikat Posted February 18, 2014 Posted February 18, 2014 Rumbleseat commented in another post: " This is an interesting thought, as unless they actually call up the bs in person, they are hearing it from the ws. I checked a whole lot of threads, as was unable to find one bs who said they would rather have been kept in the dark. So on one hand, there are a whole lot of om/ow thinking the bs doesn't want to know, and a whole lot of bs saying they wanted to know.*How can these two views be reconciled?" What a great question! How can these two views be reconciled? It seems that the APs and Ww tend to cling to the BS not "wanting" to know....yet time and again the BSs have said "Yes! Tell us!!! We WANT TO KNOW!" So, what is the truth here? Really think about it! OW/M: Do you think BS wants to know? Why or why not? (BS told you, MP told you, you just assume, you dont want to think about it, etc.) Would you want to know if you were the BS? Have you been a BS before? WS: We already know you dont want your spouse to know, but are you behaving as normal as possible to hide it? Have you lied to your AP and said your BS "knows something but doesnt want to know details" or something like that? Or has your AP suggested your BS "must know but doesnt want to face it?" BS: Do you want to know? Would you want to know if it happened again? How would you react if OW told you about the affair? Please keep this respectful. Blunt is okay, respect is required. Honesty is appreciated. 1
Spark1111 Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 OMG! I would have had so much respect for someone, anyone, including the OW, to have told me the truth about ANY of it! didn't happen. NEVER happened, despite my three kind phone calls to her. NO response, whatsoever. I left her alone until she blatantly broke NC almost 2.5 years later....wanting to reignite the affair....and then the gloves came off. With his full support, I kept calling her direct line at work until she picked up the line. it was a bizarre conversation. hated me, my children, then threw HIM under the bus for lying which was ironic, given that she hinted at restarting what they had.... hey, like I have always stated....I was only ever ONE phone call away if she wanted the TRUTH of our relationship....we were very sexual during the affair...planned a future, hosted holidays for extended family and I sacrificed and worked three jobs to support his goals for OUR future. I can ONLY conclude she WANTED to believe his lies and did NOT want the TRUTH to burst her affair bubble. She NEEDED to believe she was a better partner to him then I was....because maybe he was really gone leave me for her. Hey, I loved him enough to let him go and told him often: If you find someone you FEEL loves you more, pleas go. Just have enough respect to TELL me. 6
SweetandHappy Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 I know that if I were in the position of having my husband cheating behind my back, then I would definitely want to know. I have read so many times here though that the OW should not tell.... that her motives for telling are selfish. It should be up to the WS to tell, but many of them won't do it. They will rug sweep and minimize. So, it can be a catch 22 at times. From my standpoint, I don't care what the motive for telling is, I would just want to know. 4
OpenBook Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 Somewhereone Between OW and BS lies "The Truth" There, fixed it for ya. 6
jwi71 Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 This is easy. I like easy. (I will use MM and OW for ease of typing...but the genders can be easily switched) Fear drives all. The OW says the BS doesn't want to know. Or how can she not? Of course, simply calling the BS solves THAT now doesn't it? The OW cannot of course...fear it will upset, even drive away her MM and end the A. The BS doesn't KNOW and as such cannot act one way or another. The BS can't reach the OW so she reaches the MM...who lies. More below on the MM.... The MM...well he fears telling one or both ladies because...it ends the M...or the A...or both! He ain't stupid. So, he FILTERS information. Each lady hearing what is needed to keep the A afloat. So how do really smart people, BS and OW, fall for this...THEY aren't stupid either. Quite right - the ladies aren't dumb...just deceived. The BS doesn't know. And if she suspects...is lied to. She, having little else than his word, believes him. I know its simplistic here but I am distilling this down to the basics...she asks, he lies. She believes the because she loves him and the the story is oh so plausible - but really her H is lying to her. And after years of knowing one another, we know how to lie to a spouse. The OW is in the same boat as the BS, gotta love the irony there. Fed filtered information from the MM. She believes...because she loves him and the the story is oh so plausible -but really her MM is lying to her. Now she has a step she can take to GET the truth. Call the BS. Kindly re-read the top part again and loop until it ends. I do not think it is fair to say that the ladies do WANT to know the truth...they fear it. So...lets just sweep it under the rug and hope it doesn't percolate to the top again. 5
Fluttershy Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 I am going to use the BH in my case. After my H disclosed the affair and as i friends with her BH and couldn't in good conscience leave him in the dark as to why the family friendship was at an end. And I did't know yet if I was gonna fb status what my H did or not. Lol. I told him and they sent us a group fb message telling us my husband was in love with her and had made the whole thing up. I took copies of all the emails and convos to him. He sai they were photoshopped... That was when I decided he didn't ean to know. They had often talke about a poor schmuck who had fell for her and stalker her... And now i wonder how much stalking actually went on. He does not want to know. I can't make him see the truth. But That disn't mean I didn't give it to him. Case in point. If a BS gets the truth and denies or minimizes what happens and rugs sweeps then no they didn't want to know. They get the ending they want by believeing what they want. But unless someone actually tells the BS you don't know what bS it is. And you most certainly can't take the proven liar WS word for it!!! 3
chelsea2011 Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 Rumbleseat commented in another post: " This is an interesting thought, as unless they actually call up the bs in person, they are hearing it from the ws. I checked a whole lot of threads, as was unable to find one bs who said they would rather have been kept in the dark. So on one hand, there are a whole lot of om/ow thinking the bs doesn't want to know, and a whole lot of bs saying they wanted to know.*How can these two views be reconciled?" What a great question! How can these two views be reconciled? It seems that the APs and Ww tend to cling to the BS not "wanting" to know....yet time and again the BSs have said "Yes! Tell us!!! We WANT TO KNOW!" So, what is the truth here? Really think about it! OW/M: Do you think BS wants to know? Why or why not? (BS told you, MP told you, you just assume, you dont want to think about it, etc.) Would you want to know if you were the BS? Have you been a BS before? WS: We already know you dont want your spouse to know, but are you behaving as normal as possible to hide it? Have you lied to your AP and said your BS "knows something but doesnt want to know details" or something like that? Or has your AP suggested your BS "must know but doesnt want to face it?" BS: Do you want to know? Would you want to know if it happened again? How would you react if OW told you about the affair? Please keep this respectful. Blunt is okay, respect is required. Honesty is appreciated. No matter what, if you are a honest person who is trying to live life authentically then all you want is the truth. That is all there is to say if you really think about it. Quit enabling someone elses dysfunction. I've learned a huge lesson in life and that is if you can't be honest and come clean then you are reconciling on a FALSE foundation. Good luck to those of you who think you can because I've learned the hard way that you can't. Honesty is the only way and if you don't choose honesty then there is a huge bus with your name on it traveling at a high rate of speed toward you. Good luck if you think otherwise because you will need it! 4
experiencethedevine Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 Human beings have an inbuilt safety switch courtesy of Darwinian evolution and psychology that when fully functioning protects the self to variant degrees dependant on the nature of the threat. Many will state that they have a 'feeling' that something is not as it should be, without concrete knowledge of what the actuality of that is. The wayward spouse will act on this safety mechanism to protect his investments in both his wife and his other woman (I use these gender terms as example but they would of course occur in the reverse) and lie to both in order to serve his own security. The betrayed spouse is subject to this 'feeling' and perhaps the changes in behaviour her husband presents to her but having voiced concerns, receives a resounding dismissal of any adverse occurrences. Having lived with her spouse continuously for the length of the marriage it is likely (though not in all cases) that blind faith enables the retreat of doubt for a short time. The other woman has no choice but to believe whatever information her married lover imparts to her as it is normally the case that she does not have any intimate knowledge of either the marriage in which she has become the third element, or the betrayed spouse as an individual. Of course, all circumstances are as individual as we are, but the commonality of affair behaviour indicates that effectively, the only individual in the triangulate arrangement who is not subject to blatant falsehood per se, is the wayward spouse. The other woman risks the affair's demise despite what information or lies have been narrated to her if she informs her married lovers wife. Yes, yes, we are all aware of the instances where telling is better than living with the agony of it all, but this is sometimes done in the hope that it will force the wayward spouses hand in making his choice. Regardless of what the betrayed spouse might 'feel' is amiss or whatever else is occurring in the marriage during the affair, most of them would prefer to be enlightened in order to make conscious choices about their own lives. The betrayed spouse wants to know that her sanity is not precarious and that her 'feelings' are founded in most cases. The other woman must salve her own conscience whether that be by her own beliefs regarding her adversary or by information she receives from her lover. Either way she does not usually want to 'blow up' the fragility of her relationship with her married lover by exposure and might prefer the alternative of assuming characteristics of the betrayed wife in absence of any real knowledge of her. The reactions of each are moot. 4
escafeld Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 Is there a lexicon which explains what a OW, BS, AP MM, OM, BH is, please?!
cocorico Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 OW/M: Do you think BS wants to know? Why or why not? (BS told you, MP told you, you just assume, you dont want to think about it, etc.) Would you want to know if you were the BS? Have you been a BS before? Did the BS want to know? She did not want to know. She was heavily invested in believing that she was the one with options, not him - that he was lucky to have her. This allowed her the illusion of having the "power" in the R. How did I know this? I read the emails she sent him. I heard from those. His friends she ranted at. I heard from his family that she phoned up at stupid o' clock to abuse. I heard from the kids, his colleagues, neighbours, others. It would have taken an enormous amount of coordination to have them all singing from the same hymn sheet if it were a conspiracy and not the truth. And it was entirely consistent with what I observed of her with my own eyes. Would I want to know f I were the BS? I would want him to be honest with me. Lack of honesty is lack of respect, in my book. If he could not be honest with me, I would question the basis of our R, which has always rested on a basis of honesty and respect. I would want to know, and I would find out. Have I been the BS before? No.
HermioneG Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 Is there a lexicon which explains what a OW, BS, AP MM, OM, BH is, please?! There is a sticky in the Other Man/Woman Forum. But. OW- other woman BS- betrayed spouse AP- affair partner MM-married man OM-other man BH-betrayed husband BW-betrayed wife
cocorico Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 If a BS gets the truth and denies or minimizes what happens and rugs sweeps then no they didn't want to know. They get the ending they want by believeing what they want. This was exactly what happened. Denial is a powerful aid in protecting the version of reality such a person needs.
ThatMan Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Do you know the difference between moral courage versus moral cowardice? Moral Courage: Somewhere inside yourself you have built your own idea of right and wrong. There are going to be your own principles that some people will disagree with. There will be moments when doing what you believe is right will cause some undue hardship that you would rather not deal with. But you muster up the strength to do so anyways even when you could have been left off the hook. Moral Cowardice: You essentially want to do what you believe is the right thing. But you will not do the right thing until you are firmly assured that there will be no repercussions for doing so. Personal comfort is more valuable to you than anything else. Different people are going to make their own choices. Edited February 28, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Editorial comments redacted. 6
experiencethedevine Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 This was exactly what happened. Denial is a powerful aid in protecting the version of reality such a person needs. Denial is also a powerful weapon against intrusion........ On BOTH sides of the fence........ 4
escafeld Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 There is a sticky in the Other Man/Woman Forum. But. OW- other woman BS- betrayed spouse AP- affair partner MM-married man OM-other man BH-betrayed husband BW-betrayed wife CT (cheers, thanks). 1
rumbleseat Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 This was exactly what happened. Denial is a powerful aid in protecting the version of reality such a person needs. This can apply to everyone affected by an affair, and to be completely honest, it seems that more ow/om are prone to willfull blindness. I mean come on. If the "other" knows the person is married but believes all the lies, even with plenty of evidence to the contrary, then why is that? I have even heard of some who really think their ap is no longer having sleeping with their bs, yet the bs gets pregnant. Immaculate conception? one time lucky? I think not. We all want to believe the best of those we love, and most om/ow don't want to hurt anyone, and don't like the fact that the bs will be hurt. I know there are some who don't care, but that's not the point of this conversation. These people seem to have to lie to themselves so they believe the A is somehow either not going to hurt the bs or that they somehow deserve it. Of course, the ws isn't very likely going to say " my bs is a good person, they would be devastated by the affair so i have to keep it completely under wraps". They either lie outright or "plant seeds" of doubt in the minds of the om/ow hat the bs either knows and doesn't care, doesn't know but wouldn't care anyway or so somehow so evil and terrible that they deserve poor treatment. That's the thing with A's, they thrive on secrecy, lies, deception and keeping people in the dark. It's like a teeter totter that you have to keep in perfect balance or the whole thing will collapse. The lies have to be plausible and contain a seed of truth, otherwise they will not be believed. when it comes to telling the bs the truth, I really wonder why om/ow who are so damned convinced that the bs either knows or is a terrible person and deserves to be cheated on doesn't tel them the truth. If they did, they would at least be above board and be able to end the secrecy and be more open, or at he very least, their mm/mw would have to take action one way or the other. Yet this doesn't seem to happen all that often. Why? why is being open and honest a bad thing? Could it be that the om/ow, who will say that they know that wile many mm/mw lie, theirs is honest, know, deep down, that this is not the case? That if they tell the bs they will be "spilling the beans" as it were and that this will upset the apple cart? that he bs who their mm/mw leads them to believe knows about the affair and is okay with is really doesn't know and telling them would be a disaster? If the bs either knows about the affair and is okay with it, if the marriage is so terrible that ending it would be welcomes by both spouses, etc., then why is them being told the truth such a terrible thing? Why is it so vital to lie? why would it be so bad to let that teeter totter tip? Could it be that the bs really doesn't know ( even though they want to), taht they aren't such a bad person after all, that they are more just your average person, living their life, raising their family, working at their job, going through life just the same as the om/ow? Maybe that's a big part of the secrecy. If the om/ow knew the "real" bs, it might be a whole lot harder to feel good about the A, knowing it was likely going to hurt someone who really did nothing to deserve that kind of treatment, and if they didn't, then what does that say about the mm/mw who is treating them so poorly? 3
experiencethedevine Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Do you know the difference between moral courage versus moral cowardice? Moral Courage: Somewhere inside yourself you have built your own idea of right and wrong. There are going to be your own principles that some people will disagree with. There will be moments when doing what you believe is right will cause some undue hardship that you would rather not deal with. But you muster up the strength to do so anyways even when you could have been left off the hook. Moral Cowardice: You essentially want to do what you believe is the right thing. But you will not do the right thing until you are firmly assured that there will be no repercussions for doing so. Personal comfort is more valuable to you than anything else. Different people are going to make their own choices. A most satisfying post. The issue of self deception has its roots in the continuation and maintenance of actions that one believes acceptable, against overwhelming evidence to the contrary by virtue of desire and the need for acquisition. Edited February 28, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Edited quote 2
rumbleseat Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 The thing that I will never get is the om/ow who insists that their mm/mw never lied to them believing that the bs either doesn't want to know, or knows but is in denial. As i have said before, I looked and looked, but found only one BS on here in many years of posts who says they didn't want to know. This is out of hundreds of posters who said that they did. If we take that as a fairly accurate representation of the feelings of bs's ( and not merely the feelings that are projected onto them by om/ow and ws that the bs is either in denial or doesn't want to know) then why do so many om/ow believe the bs doesn't want to know? How do they know this? Either they are being directly told this by the mm/mw to kepe the affair going, they believe it based in the bits and pieces they are told by the mm/mw or they are lying to themselves. In any case, lies are involved. ( If your A is the exception, I apologize. More often than not, there is a heck of a lot of lying to both bs and mm/mw) 3
cocorico Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 This can apply to everyone affected by an affair, and to be completely honest, it seems that more ow/om are prone to willfull blindness. I mean come on. If the "other" knows the person is married but believes all the lies, even with plenty of evidence to the contrary, then why is that? I have even heard of some who really think their ap is no longer having sleeping with their bs, yet the bs gets pregnant. Immaculate conception? one time lucky? I think not. We all want to believe the best of those we love, and most om/ow don't want to hurt anyone, and don't like the fact that the bs will be hurt. I know there are some who don't care, but that's not the point of this conversation. These people seem to have to lie to themselves so they believe the A is somehow either not going to hurt the bs or that they somehow deserve it. Of course, the ws isn't very likely going to say " my bs is a good person, they would be devastated by the affair so i have to keep it completely under wraps". They either lie outright or "plant seeds" of doubt in the minds of the om/ow hat the bs either knows and doesn't care, doesn't know but wouldn't care anyway or so somehow so evil and terrible that they deserve poor treatment. That's the thing with A's, they thrive on secrecy, lies, deception and keeping people in the dark. It's like a teeter totter that you have to keep in perfect balance or the whole thing will collapse. The lies have to be plausible and contain a seed of truth, otherwise they will not be believed. when it comes to telling the bs the truth, I really wonder why om/ow who are so damned convinced that the bs either knows or is a terrible person and deserves to be cheated on doesn't tel them the truth. If they did, they would at least be above board and be able to end the secrecy and be more open, or at he very least, their mm/mw would have to take action one way or the other. Yet this doesn't seem to happen all that often. Why? why is being open and honest a bad thing? Could it be that the om/ow, who will say that they know that wile many mm/mw lie, theirs is honest, know, deep down, that this is not the case? That if they tell the bs they will be "spilling the beans" as it were and that this will upset the apple cart? that he bs who their mm/mw leads them to believe knows about the affair and is okay with is really doesn't know and telling them would be a disaster? If the bs either knows about the affair and is okay with it, if the marriage is so terrible that ending it would be welcomes by both spouses, etc., then why is them being told the truth such a terrible thing? Why is it so vital to lie? why would it be so bad to let that teeter totter tip? Could it be that the bs really doesn't know ( even though they want to), taht they aren't such a bad person after all, that they are more just your average person, living their life, raising their family, working at their job, going through life just the same as the om/ow? Maybe that's a big part of the secrecy. If the om/ow knew the "real" bs, it might be a whole lot harder to feel good about the A, knowing it was likely going to hurt someone who really did nothing to deserve that kind of treatment, and if they didn't, then what does that say about the mm/mw who is treating them so poorly? I'm not sure why my post was quoted. My post stated that the BS was told - of which I have evidence - but chose to ignore and deny. It was not a post about secrecy. It was a post about wilfully choosing to ignore a disclosure.
Author krazikat Posted February 19, 2014 Author Posted February 19, 2014 BS: Do you want to know? Would you want to know if it happened again? How would you react if OW told you about the affair?* Yes. Without a doubt, I would want to know and the sooner, the better. And I dont care who told me or why. If the OW had told me I would not have flipped out on her...I would have questions of course, but that is to be expected. As others have mentioned, it seems that many OW are in their own state of denial. They judge the BS freely (in some cases) yet fail to see how they are in the same boat. If they rock that boat, then MM will be pissed...we also see posts when there is an ow who is thinking of contacting the bs where they get responses from ow warning "dont tell her he will never talk to you again!" or "he will lose all respect for you!" or "you will be betraying him!" or "His BS wont believe you anyway!" or....you get the point. Also, there is a common shared belief among some of the OW that telling the BS will help the affair finally end because the MM will be so mad at the "betrayal" that he will never want to talk to or trust them again...so there is a huge fear aspect for the ow. 2
experiencethedevine Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 I'm not sure why my post was quoted. My post stated that the BS was told - of which I have evidence - but chose to ignore and deny. It was not a post about secrecy. It was a post about wilfully choosing to ignore a disclosure. Or a refusal to acknowledge the decent into the mire and degradation of being involved in a clandestine triangle. 3
snappytomcat Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 I would have wanted to know,sooner than I found out,i think its nonsense,when a ws or ow say the bs didn't/or doesn't want to know,maybe theres a few that wouldn't want to,but for the most part,bs want to know that our ws are ****ing someone else
ComingInHot Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 I'm confused now... Are we talking about getting the Truth the there is an A or are we talking about getting the "Details" of an A that we have already been informed of?? *
Raena Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 I can say that after D-Day I didn't want to know all the nitty gritty details of what their affair entailed. I just couldn't handle all that all at once and I didn't need to know it. All I needed to know was that it occurred. The OW made darn sure I knew about it though. She couldn't stand the thought that I might believe that she meant nothing so she had to make it clear to me that she was something to him and rub it all in my face. But... I would have liked to have known the truth much earlier than I did. It makes me sick to think how long their affair went on while I was completely oblivious to what was really happening. I didn't need to get all the details, but I did need to know that the man I was having unprotected sex with on a regular basis was also having unprotected sex with her.
Raena Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 I'm confused now... Are we talking about getting the Truth the there is an A or are we talking about getting the "Details" of an A that we have already been informed of?? * That's funny, that's basically what I was getting at in what I was writing when you posted this. There is a difference. Edit: well looking at the time stamp, your post was actually there long before I wrote this. Not sure how I didn't see it. 1
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