Fresh BS looking for some clarity

[drifter777]

Lots of posters are acknowledging how remorseful his WW has been and somehow that should make things "better" for Desrame. There are scenarios where this is true such as if he is committed to reconciliation or trying to retain his ability to forgive her somewhere in the future. However, some men cannot live with the fact that their wife cheated and the mental images & shame that goes with it. They know that they by reconciling they are denying who they are and, in the end, this will hurt their self-respect as much as their wife's decision to have sex with another man did. How remorseful she is or isn't has nothing to do with the situation for a man like this, and taking a touch stand now such as "clean break - this is over" is not a mistake. It's an acknowledgment of his true insight and strength of conviction. Is Desrame this kind of man? I don't know - but he does.

[jnel921]

Desrame,

 

So sorry you are going through this. I have gone through this in two respective M's. One M ended in D and the other is still ongoing as we have R.

 

I think that the circumstances really dictate how things will end. Your W seems remorseful is doing all of he right things to try and fix your M. I would not however recommend RA's either. I understand your hurt and disgust as you are not ready to sleep with her again.

 

I think you may be suffering from a bruised ego, which was my issue in my own first M that ended in D.

 

You do sound like a great, successful person. M unfortunately takes work. 2.5 years is still early in a M and sometimes you may need to learn to grow together. Something wasn't right and you both may need to go to MC to explore that. I wouldn't totally blame her upbringing and the things she has gone through in the past.

 

Part of a successful M is not finding the right person, but being the right person. Please self examine yourself and determine if you can be the H she needs as well.

 

R is not a terrible thing. We all have our ups and downs. But if there is true remorse and NC, it can happen. In my second M our R has created a stronger bond between us 16 months since DDay. I cant say that I look at him the same way as I did the day we met, but what I can say is, that I do see a man who has grown from this experience. He genuinely loves me and regrets his past mistake. If he could turn back time, I believe he would. He would move heaven and earth to make me happy. Do I appreciate that?... Of course I do.

 

You have the rest of your lives to become better. You need to decide if you can do that together.

 

Good luck to you.

[KathyM]

Past behavior is the only indicator of potential future behavior.

 

Current behavior can simply be a reflection of current circumstances and can be faked altogether.

 

Is easy for someone to faithful when things are going great at home and they don't have any other great opportunities knocking at their door at the moment.

 

It's also easy to behave when you know you are on probation and being watched under the microscope.

 

Looking at someone's past on how they behaved when they werent being watched like a hawk and had a golden opportunity fall in their lap is much more revealing.

The above post bears repeating. It's easy to be faithful when the marriage is good, there are no other options, or your spouse is watching you like a hawk. But what you do when the marriage is going through a rough patch, outsiders are showing an interest, or your spouse doesn't have his/her guard up is what separates the men from the boys, or in this case, the women from the girls. It's what we do and how we behave in times of stress, and/or times of temptation, that determines our true character and our true functioning and coping ability. Some will resort to infidelity during times of stress or times of temptation. Others won't. It's not enough just to be remorseful after the fact, although that is a good start. Without addressing the underlying issues that caused the person to cheat, some of which can be pretty engrained, the person could likely cheat again when under enough stress or temptation. The OP's wife has a lot of underlying issues that caused her to cheat, as a result of the sexual abuse she experienced as a child. That all needs to be worked through in counseling, regardless of whether the BS decides to stay or go or how remorseful she is.

[jnel921]

Lots of posters are acknowledging how remorseful his WW has been and somehow that should make things "better" for Desrame. There are scenarios where this is true such as if he is committed to reconciliation or trying to retain his ability to forgive her somewhere in the future. However, some men cannot live with the fact that their wife cheated and the mental images & shame that goes with it. They know that they by reconciling they are denying who they are and, in the end, this will hurt their self-respect as much as their wife's decision to have sex with another man did. How remorseful she is or isn't has nothing to do with the situation for a man like this, and taking a touch stand now such as "clean break - this is over" is not a mistake. It's an acknowledgment of his true insight and strength of conviction. Is Desrame this kind of man? I don't know - but he does.

 

Men who can't get past it have bruised Ego's. "How dare she sleep with another man!"

 

If she is remorseful he needs to get over himself. Its not about him! MC will let them both in on what the real issues are.

 

Once he realizes that he may be ok.

[drifter777]

Men who can't get past it have bruised Ego's. "How dare she sleep with another man!"

 

If she is remorseful he needs to get over himself. Its not about him! MC will let them both in on what the real issues are.

 

Once he realizes that he may be ok.

Really? It's really that simple? Get over himself? When will some women ever learn? We evolved differently. We actually don't think like you.

[jnel921]

Really? It's really that simple? Get over himself? When will some women ever learn? We evolved differently. We actually don't think like you.

 

Trust me... I had to get over myself way back when. I agree men and women are different but the ego is powerful and I believe steers us all the same.

[Fluttershy]

The above post bears repeating. It's easy to be faithful when the marriage is good, there are no other options, or your spouse is watching you like a hawk. But what you do when the marriage is going through a rough patch, outsiders are showing an interest, or your spouse doesn't have his/her guard up is what separates the men from the boys, or in this case, the women from the girls. It's what we do and how we behave in times of stress, and/or times of temptation, that determines our true character and our true functioning and coping ability. Some will resort to infidelity during times of stress or times of temptation. Others won't. It's not enough just to be remorseful after the fact, although that is a good start. Without addressing the underlying issues that caused the person to cheat, some of which can be pretty engrained, the person could likely cheat again when under enough stress or temptation. The OP's wife has a lot of underlying issues that caused her to cheat, as a result of the sexual abuse she experienced as a child. That all needs to be worked through in counseling, regardless of whether the BS decides to stay or go or how remorseful she is.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with OP's situation. Even his wife said the marriage was good. It was her inner problem that lead to it and it appears she is doing the introspective work needed to change. I find it quite distrbing that someone who "counsels" doesn't feel a person can change or will. I would be hesitent to ever go to someone like that. And heaven forbid you were my marriage counsellor post my H's affair.

[Fluttershy]

Trust me... I had to get over myself way back when. I agree men and women are different but the ego is powerful and I believe steers us all the same.

 

Like I said... Get told "we don't understand" just so people can remain stubborn and refuse to change. Our female ego apparently doesn't count.

 

It is actually quite debatable that men and women are inheritantly that different in the way they think, feel, express emotions. There are numerous conflicting studies on the matter. And a big part of it is nature vs nurture. Stereotypes put on to kids, and how people are raised and outside pressure.

[KathyM]

This has absolutely nothing to do with OP's situation. Even his wife said the marriage was good. It was her inner problem that lead to it and it appears she is doing the introspective work needed to change. I find it quite distrbing that someone who "counsels" doesn't feel a person can change or will. I would be hesitent to ever go to someone like that. And heaven forbid you were my marriage counsellor post my H's affair.

Huh? This has everything to do with the OP's situation. Although he was not going through a rough patch in his marriage at the time of the infidelity, she WAS tempted to cheat when the opportunity presented itself, and she followed through with it. I am saying that those are the times that demonstrate a person's functioning, their coping ability, and their character. When they are tempted. She succumbed to the temptation because of her excessive need for validation from men due to her history of being sexually abused as a child. I do feel that if a person is motivated to change, change may be possible, although some patterns are highly engrained and resistant to change. I'm not providing marriage counseling here. That is not what the OP is asking for. He's asking for clarity and trying to understand why this happened, and why his wife went down this road. I'm providing clarity based on what I have learned.

[KathyM]

Oh, and just because someone is a marriage therapist doesn't mean that they are obligated to "save" a person's marriage at all costs and regardless of what the parties to the marriage want. My job as a marriage therapist is to help people to understand themselves better, understand their spouse better, explore their situation, develop clarity in what they want in their life and in their relationship, and if they decide to reconcile after infidelity, then my job is to help them strengthen their relationship, establish boundaries to protect their relationship, and understand what made them vulnerable to the infidelity. The OP is not at that stage where he has decided to reconcile. He is at the stage of trying to understand why this happened, and trying to figure out if he even wants to reconcile. It's not my job to insist on a reconciliation if that is not what the BS has decided on. I'm providing clarity here on why the WW was susceptible to the affair, and what she needs to work on to prevent this type of thing from happening in the future.

[Spark1111]

So MANY a WS was bruised and broken and abused in childhood. They take that baggage, IF UNEXAMINED, into every future relationship in their lives.

 

While denial, as a child, is a POWERFUL coping skill for survival, it is pure hell for every intimate future relationship.

 

So unless an adult, frightened child, is ready willing and able to go WAAAY back and relive the pain, rediscover how it haunts and affects every relationship, why they self-sabotage and self-destruct, why having a safe relationship with a strong, stable spouse makes them feel lesser and unworthy.....or critical and unkind...

 

Yeah...they remain at risk for ever developing the confidence and self-love necessary to be a good partner for life. they do not know that true intimacy involves risk and vulnerability and raw communication from the heart.

 

You can get hurt when you are vulnerable. They don't know how. it it easier to respond to flattering, predatory strangers than to risk rejection or disapproval from a caring, devoted partner.

 

OP, take your time. See how deep she is willing to dig. She has a very painful journey ahead of her, if done correctly with a good IC.

 

You? You can decide NOT to decide anything....for awhile.

 

You can wait and see.

[oldshirt]

. Although he was not going through a rough patch in his marriage at the time of the infidelity, she WAS tempted to cheat when the opportunity presented itself, and she followed through with it. I am saying that those are the times that demonstrate a person's functioning, their coping ability, and their character. When they are tempted. She succumbed to the temptation because of her excessive need for validation from men due to her history of being sexually abused as a child.

.

 

 

 

Or perhaps she's just a selfish whore that is only concerned with her own ego , her own power and her own pleasure.

 

 

Childhood abuse in no way condems someone to mindlessly floundering around through life unable to keep their legs together when opportunity knocks.

 

 

I'm not coldhearted to the plight of abuse victims but at the end of the day she had to take him up on his offer to get alone, allowed him to kiss her and touch her and arouse her. She took her clothes off, got him hard and spread her legs. Each stage of that process was a conscious choice being made by an adult.

 

 

Does she have deep seated insecurities, hang ups and issues surrounding her abuse? perhaps, perhaps not. Regardless, I am sure that no one ever told her that cheating on her spouse and doing men she met from work was ok.

 

 

She may be an abuse victim as a child but she still knew right from wrong.

 

 

We haven't heard her side of it, I'm sure somewhere in her mind she has some justifications and perhaps some are even somewhat valid, but lets not just poo-poo it all and chalk it up to simply being a victim of abuse.

[drifter777]

Like I said... Get told "we don't understand" just so people can remain stubborn and refuse to change. Our female ego apparently doesn't count.

 

It is actually quite debatable that men and women are inheritantly that different in the way they think, feel, express emotions. There are numerous conflicting studies on the matter. And a big part of it is nature vs nurture. Stereotypes put on to kids, and how people are raised and outside pressure.

Come on, ladies. I didn't say female ego doesn't count - just that men and women are very, very different when it comes to self-esteem issues. To deny that is simply ignorant.

[troubadour]

Men who can't get past it have bruised Ego's. "How dare she sleep with another man!"

 

If she is remorseful he needs to get over himself. Its not about him! MC will let them both in on what the real issues are.

 

Once he realizes that he may be ok.

 

 

This is simply ridiculous advice. It really is!

[jnel921]

This is simply ridiculous advice. It really is!

 

i have been D and R with enough M years under my belt to give some sound advice. I also think I know what I am talking about. There is nothing wrong with going to IC or MC to figure out what one's own issues are and finally have the tools to deal with life.

 

This A in the OP situation is not about him. Just like I know the A's my Husband's had were not about me.

 

I didn't feel this way the first time it happened to me in my first M. I was in complete shock as felt I was too beautiful and successful to have this happen. I too was confident in my job and financial status and thought I had it going on and my H would never do that... boy was I wrong and it hit me like a ton of bricks and I was very upset about that for a long time when I learned that it wasn't about me.

 

The second time around I did not feel this way as I had the proper tools to help me deal. My attitude was if you really want that...you know where the door is. I will not stop you. I know my worth and eventually the right person will to.

[Fluttershy]

Oh, and just because someone is a marriage therapist doesn't mean that they are obligated to "save" a person's marriage at all costs and regardless of what the parties to the marriage want. My job as a marriage therapist is to help people to understand themselves better, understand their spouse better, explore their situation, develop clarity in what they want in their life and in their relationship, and if they decide to reconcile after infidelity, then my job is to help them strengthen their relationship, establish boundaries to protect their relationship, and understand what made them vulnerable to the infidelity. The OP is not at that stage where he has decided to reconcile. He is at the stage of trying to understand why this happened, and trying to figure out if he even wants to reconcile. It's not my job to insist on a reconciliation if that is not what the BS has decided on. I'm providing clarity here on why the WW was susceptible to the affair, and what she needs to work on to prevent this type of thing from happening in the future.

 

And very heavily conveying your usual unforgiving attitude and sayin she is damaged goods by stressing that and makig it apparent you don't think she will change. We are talking young people here. What a hopeless view of people you have. This isn't a woman with repeat behaviour or even a habit. She cheated on an ex when she was very young and he said they are young still. What is very young? A sixteen year old girl?

 

If she was blaming him, her parents, the dog next door instead of owning she made her own choice then I would agree with much of what you say. But even this person showing all the signs that most Bs only dream of you are painting things in a light that say she won't change. Too ingrained. Too damaged. Repeat beahviour (twice and we hardly know how old she was the first time.)

 

She could backslide in the future. And any future person could slide in the future. Unfortunatly there is no guarantee of fidelity. Soem will see him being open to seein how genuine her remorse is as asking for trouble. Others will see it as grace and a second chance. And not some nilly willie rug sweeping second chance but a get your sht together second chance.

 

Your clarity isn't clarity. It is judgement. A judgement made without knowing her, speaking to her, knowing important facts, and ignorin the good signs given.

[Fluttershy]

Come on, ladies. I didn't say female ego doesn't count - just that men and women are very, very different when it comes to self-esteem issues. To deny that is simply ignorant.

 

Men and women can't be divided so neatly like stats, studies and people want to. And you didn't say it, you implied it. Men aren't frim mars and women aren't from venus.

 

Tht is why you get people put and labled into little boxes. You get men billitling other men and saying they have manginas or pussies or gay ( though the last really shouldn't be an insult but it is.) women who behave more like "men" are called biches or butch or souless or sluts. It isn't what we are told to believe or how we are raised. That more than anyhing creates these problems. It is trying to fit people neatly into boxes. They don't. I have a boy and a girl and my daughter is as tough as nails and my son is sensitive. And sadly there will be those that tell my son to "man up". Happens all the time. I've seen on here when men post they were bothered more by the ILYs than the sex some guys tell them they are cuckholded and those guys egg them on describing the sex to then trying to get them angry about that. And none of this has to do with an inate difference and entirely to do with outside forces moldin people. Some guys WILL be bothered more by the sex. Some girls will wonder if she was tighter down there. Saying men feel this way and women feel that way is so restricting. Asking a person How do you feel, gender aside, is much more helpful.

 

Even though whole men are visual women are not is crap. I see a hot guy I find attractive I get tingly down there. My dck stands erect. But unlike men no one sees it and that is quite nice.

[Desrame]

Lots of posters are acknowledging how remorseful his WW has been and somehow that should make things "better" for Desrame. There are scenarios where this is true such as if he is committed to reconciliation or trying to retain his ability to forgive her somewhere in the future. However, some men cannot live with the fact that their wife cheated and the mental images & shame that goes with it. They know that they by reconciling they are denying who they are and, in the end, this will hurt their self-respect as much as their wife's decision to have sex with another man did. How remorseful she is or isn't has nothing to do with the situation for a man like this, and taking a touch stand now such as "clean break - this is over" is not a mistake. It's an acknowledgment of his true insight and strength of conviction. Is Desrame this kind of man? I don't know - but he does.

 

I have been reading and re-reading this post and the bolded part speaks loudly to me. I am not sure if I am this kind of man yet, but I will find out in the coming months. I know I am the kind who will take a firm stance until I figure out the depths of my self respect out but on the flip side my upbringing also taught me that forgiveness is divine. That kindness is sacred. That self sacrifice is noble.

 

Rock meet hard place?

 

The one caveat I will say is that if/once R begins the remorsefulness shown now will make all the difference in the world.

[KathyM]

And very heavily conveying your usual unforgiving attitude

This is not for me to forgive or not forgive. This is up to the OP whether he feels he can get past this. I'm only saying that she has a history of cheating on a partner, most likely because of her excessive need for validation brought on by the sexual abuse she experienced as a child.

and sayin she is damaged goods by stressing that and makig it apparent you don't think she will change.

I never said she won't change. I do believe she is damaged because of her history of abuse, and that will require a lot of counseling and motivation on her part to come to any change.

We are talking young people here.

Do you honestly think that someone who was sexually abused as a child, and has shown a pattern of infidelity both with her previous relationship and with her current marriage, is somehow suddenly going to become healthy and use good judgement now than they did a few years earlier? No, people don't change that quickly or that easily.

What a hopeless view of people you have.

I'm a realist. I know the damage child sexual abuse can cause in a person, having taken many classes in this subject, and counseling people who have been abused. I know how child sexual abuse can affect a person's functioning as an adult, and how difficult it is to change the damage done.

This isn't a woman with repeat behaviour or even a habit. She cheated on an ex when she was very young and he said they are young still. What is very young? A sixteen year old girl?

The OP didn't say what age his wife was when she cheated in her previous relationship. You are making a lot of assumptions which the OP has not stated. But regardless, this IS a woman with repeat behavior. Infidelity in both her previous relationship and in her current marriage. I think that shows a pattern.

If she was blaming him, her parents, the dog next door instead of owning she made her own choice then I would agree with much of what you say. But even this person showing all the signs that most Bs only dream of you are painting things in a light that say she won't change. Too ingrained. Too damaged. Repeat beahviour (twice and we hardly know how old she was the first time.)

Like I said, it's good that she is remorseful. I would be more concerned if she wasn't. And like I said, I don't know if she will or will not change. I'm saying that child sexual abuse leaves lasting dysfunctional patterns that are very difficult to change and require years of therapy to change. I'm sorry if that is not optimistic enough for you, but that is the reality.

She could backslide in the future. And any future person could slide in the future. Unfortunatly there is no guarantee of fidelity. Soem will see him being open to seein how genuine her remorse is as asking for trouble. Others will see it as grace and a second chance. And not some nilly willie rug sweeping second chance but a get your sht together second chance.

Remorse doesn't always lead to change, but I guess this is the risk the OP has to weigh. Is a woman who has a history of child sexual abuse, and a history of infidelity, and an engrained pattern of needing excessive validation from men because of that abuse, a good risk for a long-term relationship partner? I would have said her history of cheating in her prior relationship made her a poor risk as a relationship partner. He ignored that risk, and now has a wife who cheated on him as well. He'll have to decide if trying to reconcile is worth the risk.

Your clarity isn't clarity. It is judgement. A judgement made without knowing her, speaking to her, knowing important facts, and ignorin the good signs given.

I can only go by what the OP is saying. She has a history of childhood sexual abuse. She has a history of cheating in her prior relationship, and was very quick to cheat on the OP and escalate to a physical affair when the opportunity presented itself. Whether that makes for a good risk for a relationship partner for the future, the OP will have to decide for himself. I'm expressing my opinion based on what the OP has said. Obviously, you have a different opinion.

[bubbaganoosh]

If your divorce is just symbolic, I suggest you don't get divorced.

 

And if it's a foregone conclusion, then I hope you've told your wife as much.

 

This may not sit well with some, but I can tell you that many a betrayed husband here would kill for a wife who is as remorseful as yours. You have every right to divorce yourself from a cheater but be careful that you don't give away that which you really don't want to lose.

 

A lot of betrayed husbands would kill for a wife who can keep her knees together too.

[bubbaganoosh]

What I don't understand was the comment she made about having a threesome to make things even.

 

First of all, since she would also be included in the threesome, she would still be one up on him. If she is suggesting a FFM threesome she's still including herself in on the action and I would wonder if there's more that I don't really know about her. Is she also turned on by women.

 

Second of all, that would be something that I would question coming for a woman who got caught having an affair. To me it would seem that a suggestion like that means that she wants more than I'm giving and IMO would make the bells and whistles go off in my head.

 

Maybe I'm crazy but I think that her suggestion has a hidden message to it and if I'm still in a tizzy for finding out she had an affair, it would confuse me even more. Maybe I'm reading more into it.

[Desrame]

The threesome thing was squashed pretty much as it came out of her mouth. I just wanted to verify her reasons for offering it and I think it came down to two things, good intent gone to desperation (she is not bi or even close, shes not sexually explorative or open) and a way to alleviate her guilt on many levels. No way I'd encourage or even imply to her that it was an ok line of thought.

 

For male BSs, how did you get over the fact that she slept with someone else, that she wanted it and pursued it. That she wasn't just numb and that it didn't "just happen". I know this is a very fresh wound for me but this is the part I am struggling with the deepest at this juncture.

[BetrayedH]

A lot of betrayed husbands would kill for a wife who can keep her knees together too.

 

Of course. The problem is that there is no way to get such a guarantee. Six and a half years being together and another ten with a marital contract did me no good. A truly remorseful WW might just turn out to be a safer bet.

[bubbaganoosh]

Of course. The problem is that there is no way to get such a guarantee. Six and a half years being together and another ten with a marital contract did me no good. A truly remorseful WW might just turn out to be a safer bet.

 

Yeah. Your right but it still would be nice though

[bubbaganoosh]

For male BSs, how did you get over the fact that she slept with someone else, that she wanted it and pursued it. That she wasn't just numb and that it didn't "just happen". I know this is a very fresh wound for me but this is the part I am struggling with the deepest at this juncture.

 

I guess what you have to ask yourself if this is who you want to spend the rest of your life with. Yeah, right now it's still fresh in your mind and to make matters worse, she did it "just because."

 

I'm one of those guys that an affair is a deal breaker and I give a ton of credit to those who are able to work through it. It's just with me that I don't want to have to carry the burden of always wondering in the back of my mind and just to be clear, if I was the one who stepped over the line, I would expect the same in spades.

 

The only advice I can give you is to wait until you mind clears a little more and if you feel that you can get through it and from what you have said, she's doing everything she could to make up for the stupid thing she did and you truly believe her then with help from a MC you might get through it.

 

If you find it too hard to be around her because of the pain then maybe you should separate for a while to get you mind back on track.

 

I don't envy you and what I would do is just my opinion, and whatever you decide to do, just make sure your mind is clear and you weighed all your options. Good luck to you my friend.