Am I crazy to even consider this? Is it worth it?

[Finneus]

Hey everyone, I'm in a somewhat complicated relationship situation and I was hoping for some objective feedback. Sorry in advance for the looooong post ahead, but I want to provide you guys with the most accurate and detailed post as possible for better responses. Also sorry in advance for any rambling or nonsensical verbiage. I like to think I'm well-spoken, but talking about this issue gets me emotionally distraught and sort of mixed up. So, here goes!

 

I'm a 37 y/o professional man and I've been in an on-again-off-again relationship with the most amazing woman I've ever met my entire life for the past (almost) four years. I've been taken with her since the moment we met and it's really only a slight exaggeration to say that she is absolutely perfect. We are extremely compatible in *almost* every way. She's a hard 10 in the looks department and we have mind blowing physical/sexual chemistry, but what really stands out about her the most is her intelligence. I've been with women who are are this beautiful before and there are plenty of brilliant women in my field, but THIS smart (literally rocket scientist smart -- she used to do something with rockets for Boeing) AND this beautiful is unheard of. That's just the start of it too. She's a really sweet girl, sane (never doing crazy again), tons of common interests and fun to be around, and very logical and drama free. She communicates very openly and is unfailingly honest about her intentoins, her feelings, and everything else. SHe is unlike anyone I (or most people) have ever met and that's usually a good thing, though I guess it's ultimately what's responsible for the issues we're having too. By society's standards, she is definitely pretty contrarian, but not really in ways that are super apparent at first (no facial piercings or full-body tattoos ) or weird either. I know I probably sound like a lovestruck idiot who might be blind to faults because of my feelings (which I admit might be partly true), but I guess for the sake of this post, you guys just have to trust me when I say that I am far from being the only one who thinks this highly of her. all of our friends and everyone we meet seems just as blown away by her, even if they aren't so emotionally wrapped up in her as I am.

 

So what's the problem?

 

Well a few things. First and foremost is that she's a long term committment-phobe. She's really independent and successful but also very introverted and like I said before, definitely marches to the beat of her own drum for everything she does (I can give some other examples of this upon request). So basically, she doesn't want to get married to me or anyone else (and she's still undecided but leaning towards yes about having kids) and has told me before that monogamous relationships have never felt right for her. This all is compounded by the fact that I did something incredibly stupid early on in our relationship (didn't cheat if that's what you're thinking -- I can provide more information on that if you think it's relevent) and even though we eventually reconciled, I think she's been felt little wary of me ever since. We've talked a lot about where the relationship is heading a lot, each of our feelings/desires, and she says that while she cares about me, is happy with our relationship, and could maybe see us spending our lives or having children together, she can't promise monogamy because the idea of being with only one person for the rest of her life makes her feel trapped/suffocated/depressed/and so forth. She said she'd prefer to have the option of having more simultaneous relationships if she meets others she's interested in being with. I've known that she was kind of committment-phobic since we met and she has told me multiple times before that if I want a monogamous wife, kids, typical life with a house in the suburbs, etc that I need to move on and have that with someone else besides her.

 

I have made very earnest attempts at moving on and trying to find someone else on numerous occasions, but each time, I find my way back to her (I know she misses me too), despite the fact that I have (at least up until recently) had intense desires for a committed relationship and eventually marriage. Every other woman (even some real catches) I've met feel like they are lacking in one department or another, and I end up feeling disappointed, frustrated, and even more empty and lonely then when I set out. Functionally (and aside from these issues), our relationship is wonderful and is everything I could ever hope for. I see her just about every day, we rarely spend a night apart, and I can't even describe the feelings of content and bliss I have when I'm with her. Honestly (though maybe I'm just naive), I don't believe there are any other men in her life right now, and if there are, definitely none who are as close to her as I am (aside from maybe one platonic friend, who happens to be my best friend also). There are however plenty guys who are interested, and although I never felt insecure before, I will admit that the volume of male attention she receives pouring in from every direction bothers me (though I've been working on this).

 

So here's where I'm at now. Basically, I deferred finding love and starting a family to my early 30's so that I could focus on school and develop my career (I'm a surgeon). My profession is pretty glamorous and this has afforded me great advantage with the ladies in the past (and still does.....she's not the only one with other options, but if I'm being honest, the fact that my profession didn't instantly impress her into bed with me was one of the things that drew me to her in the first place -- I like a good challenge sometimes). Before recently, I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined that I'd ever consider sharing a woman with other men, but then again, I never would have imagined that it was even possible for someone this close perfect to exist, let alone for me to meet and have a relationship with her. I am madly in love with this woman and am finding more and more that I will do anything (including suppressing my gargantuan surgeon's ego HAHA and swallowing my pride) to be with her. Like I said before, our relationship doesn't *feel* casual or non-committed at all. Aside from the fact that she doesn't like to *call* it a committed relationship, it is meeting all of my needs (emotional, physical, intellectual, etc) as if it were one. Even when there are other guys around vying for her attention, she doesn't make me feel neglected or unimportant to her. I used to feel completely repulsed by the thought of being in an open relationship for life, but after some soul searching and attitude adjustment, I'm beginning to think that maybe it's a price I'm willing to pay to spend my life and have children with a woman who seems so perfect she shouldn't even exist. Also, I should add that she's nine years younger than I am, so I guess part of me is (stupidly) holding out hope that her wanting to feel free and unattached is just a phase she'll eventually grow out of.

 

So what do I do? Do I cut my losses and find someone else to be mine and only mine, knowing that there's a good chance she won't measure up in one way or another? I hate the idea of settling for less than I know I can get, but I also know in my heart that's it's probably what I'll have to do if I permanently part ways with this girl. Do I stay the course I'm on now and hope that my life doesn't fall apart later if she brings another guy into our relationship later on? Do I adopt a don't-ask-don't-tell policy with her and live in blissful ignorance? Most of my friends (many of whom are also her friends and have known her for longer than I have) say that if it were anyone else, I'd be crazy to consider these relationship terms, but that if they had the chance to be with someone like her, they'd probably be thinking about it too. I've spent plenty of time wondering if I'm just crazy in love, but the fact that everyone around me (especially those who know her well) seem to corroborate that she really is an exceedingly rare and amazing individual, it gives me hope that maybe this whole thing isn't total insanity.

 

If you've made it to the end of this post, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your time and patience with me. As you can tell, I'm pretty desperate for some guidance, so I greatly appreciate any you have to offer. If you need more details or have follow up questions, please let me know. Thanks and have a great day!

 

~Finn

[Raf90]

By how you speak of her you seem really in Love with this woman.

So ill presume you are ok with the open relationship, and i'll also presume in the long run she wants to create a family with you.

 

You might aswell give it a try, BUT, i would definetly talk to her first, and maybe set some conditions, or at least hear what her terms are, basically get to know what is her definition of an open relationship.

If her meaning of open relationship means that You are the man she will live and have her family with, with occasional flirts and sex with other guys, i guess you might aswell go for it if you love her that much.

 

But if by open relationship she means having more than one family, or, while you 2 live toghether and have a family, bringing home other men and making you sleep on the couch to have sex with those men, or having those men meet your kids (extremising the examples, just to make a point), then i would probably bail on it, of course i would first try find a compromise that would fit both.

 

If she loves you the way you love her, im sure she wont be overly difficult to convince on finding a compromise that would fit the 2 of you.

But if she wants you to completely adapt to her lifestyle, with her making no sacrifices, then maybe her feelings arent the same as yours.

 

Right now she is 28, shes in her physical and sexual peak, and she wants to enjoy it as much as she can, while she can. Im quite confident though that in 10 to 15 years her 'lust' will have calmed down, so, she might still have occasional sex with other guys, but i think her main focus will be on you and your family.

Id say the Kids will probably be a changing factor.

[Finneus]

I really am totally in love with her. I appreciate your good advice though, thanks a lot man. Not properly defining the terms of relationship was what lead to some trouble in the past, so I'll have a talk with her about it. I should mention that she said she wasn't *just* talking about having sex with other guys. She said wants the ability to carry on basically any type of simultaneous relationship (whether that's a one night stand or a more emotional/meaningful one like what we have) as she sees fit. Also I'm free to do the same, though that's not such great consolation for me, since I am more interested in being monogamous.

[Emilia]

So what do I do?

Work out why you have the issues that you do: why you want a woman who is emotionally unavailable and doesn't want you while ignoring those that would commit to you.

 

Those that are attracted to emotionally unavailable types are usually that way themselves.

 

Do you come from a dysfunctional family, OP?

[Eternal Sunshine]

I don't get why you even got involved with her when you found out she is polyamorous. This whole situation sounds very unhealthy and dysfunctional.

[Raf90]

I really am totally in love with her. I appreciate your good advice though, thanks a lot man. Not properly defining the terms of relationship was what lead to some trouble in the past, so I'll have a talk with her about it. I should mention that she said she wasn't *just* talking about having sex with other guys. She said wants the ability to carry on basically any type of simultaneous relationship (whether that's a one night stand or a more emotional/meaningful one like what we have) as she sees fit. Also I'm free to do the same, though that's not such great consolation for me, since I am more interested in being monogamous.

 

You should probably clear this part with her, because i think there should be a limit to the extent of her other relations.

 

Ill just put it in brutally simplistic way, i hope you get what i mean:

 

She has family with you, and has a relation with another man that doesnt go beyond occasional encounters, love&sex. = Within the limits of acceptable

 

She has family with you, and, at the same time has family with another man = way over the limits.

 

She lives with both you and the other man, she spends half a week at your place and half a week a his place = Personally it would be over the limit, but, not knowing you, you might be fine with it.

 

 

Having said that, clearly this examples are very black&white, and in your situation there is also lots of grey which defines the limits between acceptable and unacceptable.

best thing you can do is talk to her and define, Together, those limits, so the both of you will be satisfied.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Raf90

[Tetley]

Hey Finn,

You both have incompatible needs. She doesn't want long term commitment and monogamy, and you do. You have two options:

1) Stay with her:

Lets say you decide to stick it out. Things go great for a couple of years, then bam: "Finn I've met someone, my dream man!". You won't even be able to act surprised. She told you it's going to happen: "monogamous relationships aren't her thing". Alternatively you ask her to be your wife, and she says "Yes". Ten years roll by, you have a couple of kids, everythings great. Then she ends up having an affair. Cue divorce, heartache and turmoil. Check out the loveshack 'Infidelity' boards to see how this goes.

 

2) Leave her:

Easier said than done I know. This might mean months of hurt for you (and her). You'll probably never forget her. But you WILL get over her in time. The hurt will stop. Then, one day you'll probably meet someone who fall in love with AND meets your relationship needs.

 

I suggest option 2. Pull the trigger and take the hit you know is coming anyway. That way you can be prepared for it. It's not going to be easy, but you have to do it. It'll save you years of pain. I know you hoping for option 3) You guys get married, have kids, she doesn't stray. However she has said that it won't happen.

 

What was the thing you did to cause her to mistrust you at the start of the relationship? This might be relevent.

Whatever happens in this situation you sound like a good man and I wish you best of luck.

[Poppygoodwill]

YOu've been off and on for four years. Given her point of view, I'd think in that time there have been other men in her life, yes? So you must know how it feels for you to love someone who loves - physically and perhaps emotionally - someone else at the same time.

 

If not, then why don't you try it? Polyamory is a well documented lifestyle. YOu can find a bajillion things online about it, serious writing which talks about the 'rules' that make it all work - mainly: honesty, generosity, excellent communication and a willingness to see the other persons needs as important and valid as your own.

 

You're not sure you can live with it. YOu're not sure you can live without her.

 

The only way to solve your problem is try it. Do the research Surgeon Boy, and it will become very clear very fast whether either of you are able to maintain a relationship that is loving, respectful, and honest enough to survive it.

[ExpatInItaly]

Honestly, I don't think you're compatible long-term. You've already been doing this for four years with her, and where has that gotten you? She's been clear with you about her preferred lifestyle. All you can do is either accept that, or move on.

 

If you're hoping to get married someday and maintain a monogamous and committed marriage, she's not your woman. Sorry, OP.

[Finneus]

Hey everyone, thanks so much for all the great replies. Really helpful, so I appreciate your time. Let me give you the (looooong) back story that might clear some things up.

 

My relationship with her started out as a normal relationship/dating...listed as "in a relationship" on facebook, all that jazz. Everything was going great (I thought) but a few weeks in, she asked if we could back off on the whole "committed relationship" thing and be in an open relationship instead. She said it wasn't personal and that she really happy with how things were going with me, but she wasn't so sure about the whole committment thing because she was coming off a bad breakup, had just moved to my state, started a new high intensity job that had long hours and rotating shifts, etc and she would feel a lot less pressure if we were "open" (and we discussed what that actually meant to her too). I agreed to that because even if it had been outright rejection, I still would have wanted to stay friends and continue hanging out with her in whatever manner she would allow. We left things by my telling her what I had hoped for (more committment, eventually marriage) and that if she ever wanted to be serious with me again, to let me know. But of course I did take it kind of personally at first (even when she said it wasn't) and I assumed there was someone else (though she still listed me as "open relationship" on facebook), but aside from us having that talk, literally nothing else changed. I still saw her pretty much every day, we continued growing close emotionally, I still was insanely attracted to her, and I definitely didnt feel like she was actively trying to put distance between herself the way I had kind of prepared myself for after our talk. Because everything was functionally the same, I basically allowed myself to get complacent and start to grow closer with her, even though in retrospect, this was the first warning sign about her issues with committment. Around the same time, I had kind of a "freak out" after my 34th bday where I realized that work was consuming a lot of my time and that I really needed to stop dicking around if I was going to get married and started the family I wanted soon. 34 is still pretty young by unmarried (male) surgeon's standards since many of us don't finish residency until we're 32 or older, but I got it in my head that I had less than a year until I turned 35 with no game plan in place and no prospects that I could see myself marrying aside from this girl and this made me pretty anxious if I let myself think about it too much.

 

So anyway, fast forward two months or so and I'm still blissfully complacent with (though with those worries about marriage and family in the back of my mind, occasionally being drawn to the forefront) and more attached to this girl than ever. I guess I was concerned about, but not that much since I was kind of avoiding it mentally, I knew I was free to pursue other women, and it kind of seemed like her aversion to the committed relationship was maybe temporary (she was only 25 at the time, still figuring out her own goals...I was also extremely focused and goal oriented in my 20's and not thinking about dating/family/marriage, so I "got" that part). And all of that was kind of reinforced by the fact that she and I were still engaged in this so-called "open" relationship that really didn't seem or feel that way. Also, I should add that after that first talk we had about becoming "open", we never discussed the "terms" of our relationship again and just let it develop organically, but I still categorized it as an open relationship in my mind since that's what we had agreed upon before.

 

So around the turn of the year (2-3 months after we had the "talk"), she was planning a vacation to Antarctica and would be gone for about 3 weeks or so. I was invited to join her, but I was unable to get that much time off work. So she went ahead (I offered to babysit her kittens haha) and we were still able to talk through Skype pretty much every day. the internet on her ship was pretty unreliable or had crappy quality sometimes, so we'd just email that day instead. But still, communication almost every day. So about a month earlier, I had met another girl at work and she had been inviting me to hang out. Since I had the free time and was admittedly quite lonely, I took her up on her offers and we ended up beginning a pretty fast paced intense relationship right away. The second girl was basically looking for everything I was (committment right away, wanted a family soon since she was closer in age to me), we shared a similar profession (OR nurse) and some common interests otherwise too. She was cute and I fell for her immediately. Another thing that really drew me to the second girl was the fact that she was REALLY in to me. I realize this makes me sound like an egotistical prick (surgeon here, remember? hah) but she just seemed happier to see me, more impressed by me, and all about me in a much more noticeable way than the first girl. We had a lot of fun together and like I said, things moved very quickly with her, so I began envisioning myself with her in the future and that really calmed the anxieties I'd been having over it when it was just myself and girl #1. I told her about my situation with girl #1 and she encouraged me to end things with her so that the two of us could be together.

 

So that's basically what I planned to do right away when girl #1 got home (tell her I found someone else and that I just wanted to be friends). Since she was the one who had explicitly said it was okay if I dated others (and figured she was doing the same) and is almost hyper-logical about certain things (not so emotional like most other women I've dated), I figured it would not be too difficult. She came over to get her kittens back and seemed really happy to see me, said she missed me, etc. I told her I wanted to talk and just came out with it. Instead of responding how I thought she would, she just acted kind of stunned and speechless. This is pretty much the only time in the four years I've known her when she hasn't been totally composed. I explained the deal with girl #2 and said I hope she understood, since this was an opportunity for me to have the type of relationship I was looking for. Then, she kind of threw me for a loop by saying that she had wanted to talk to me too (that I had beaten her to it) and that her whole trip, she had been missing me and thinking about telling me this for weeks, because being apart had made her realize how silly her aversion to a committed relationship because in reality, there were no other guys and that was kind of what we had all along. She assured me that I'd done nothing wrong because we never really got around to re-opening the discussion of "open" vs. "committed" after things became more emotionally serious between us, but that she was ready to actually acknowledge what we had as serious and commit to me, just like I'd wanted before.

 

Well at this point, I was pretty damn surprised but not sure I really believed the story about her "wanting to tell me for weeks" (I was thinking she was saying this more as a reaction to my breaking up with her to try and get me to stay with her instead). But nope, sure enough she showed an email draft in her gmail account from the first week of her trip that said something like "Thank you for your patience with me and for sticking around while I resolved some things in my head about serious relationships. Being apart from you made me realize that I only liked the feeling of freedom to date other guys, but I really only want to be with you and I'm ready to officially have the kind of relationship you've wanted all along". Something like that. So basically this open relationship had kind of blown up in my face had suddenly turned in to two girls (both of whom I cared about and kind of wanted to be with) who wanted exclusive relationships with me (well, #1 was more flexible on that but #2 definitely wanted committment). So I told them I needed to think, did A LOT of that, and basically had my friends help me with a mental cost-benefit-analysis to help me weigh my options, which boiled down to:

 

Girl #1 -- the higher quality (overall), but riskier choice with the longer timeline (being younger, not so ready to settle down). A friend had pointed out to me that she had already agreed to be in a serious relationship months before, but had changed her mind when she asked me about being "open", so what was to stop her from doing that again after I had already chosen her over Girl #2?

 

Girl #2 -- the lower quality but still good option who is a "safer" bet, wants the same things I do, ready for family, more serious about dating, etc.

 

So I weighed my options and ultimately decided on Girl #2. This turned out to be a huge mistake, but at the time, I had gotten really caught up in the whirlwind relationship with #2, had started to feel better about the future, and liked the "security" that I felt about her. Plus, my limited interactions with #1 had started to make me feel more emotionally distant towards her while she was gone. Also, #2 was pretty aggressively/vocally trying to get me to pick her (always reminding me about the future, straight up saying "you know you want me to be your girlfriend") where as #1 was more passive like "I hope we can be together, but I understand your position" and #2 just sort of won me over with all that.

 

Anyway, this is getting long so I best wrap it up. That relationship lasted about 6 months (I knew I had made a mistake a lot sooner than that but stupid pride stopped me from doing anything), I got out of that relationship and have trying to correct that mistake with girl #1 since. Like I said, we eventually reconciled and she doesn't hold that stuff over my head or anything, but I feel like she hasn't been as comfortable with me or the idea of committment as she was before. I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and I worry that after months of making her realize that a committed relationship with me was a good thing, I kind of inadvertently destroyed the comfort she had developed and gave her a nudge in the direction of "anti-committment" that she's in now.

 

I also want to add that aside from the 8ish months after the incident I just described where she'd barely look at me or talk to me, I've never found her to be "emotionally unavailable" (just not always *exclusively* available I guess) and the whole thing about "polyamorous relationships" (new term for me, thanks for pointing me in that direction guys) came up fairly recently after I already had it bad for this lady. she has never actually used that term herself btw. Thanks again for reading this ridiculously long post and for all the insightful comments, I really appreciate it. Even if no one does reads this, I actually find it pretty helpful to be able to gather my thoughts like this (but also have the option of receiving feedback), so I am much obliged to this community for letting me do so.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Finneus