Is staying the right choice?

[Spectre]

Staying is never the right choice, even if both parties are not at fault. Staying equates to saying "this behavior is okay, if you do it again you will get away with it and I am also okay with being in a relationship lacking love and respect".

 

Of course both of you guys cheated. But then it seems you patched it up only for her to be doing it again, on a couch in your house, with some other man. That is nasty, so no staying with her isn't the right choice unless you love being at risk for std's, etc. If this woman is seriously entertaining the idea of sleeping with any man other then her boyfriend then she's really not that in love with you.

 

You say you "need" her in your life, but you need this woman in your life in the same way I need herpes.

[garfunckles]

She still says she wants to see other women or have a girlfriend. WHAT?

 

What if you said you still want to see other women and have a girlfriend as well? This is ridiculous.

 

CHEATING IS CHEATING. Your girlfriend has told you quite clearly that she does not wish to be monogamous. Is this how you want to bring your children up? She wants to be together with you and have sex with other women. Is this what you want?

 

I've taken a rather open view on this at the moment because I am still not sure.

 

I am not bi-sexual myself, you know been there tried it didn't like it, so it's hard for me to understand what it feels like to when you're attracted to someone of the same sex.

 

She says a woman can give her things I can't. That actually makes sense to me. Whereas I wouldn't need to see another woman because I already have a woman. That makes sense as well. She says she wont see other men because I am her man and can give her what she wants from men.

 

I don't know, maybe other bisexual people in relationships can comment. It sort of makes sense to me.

 

She hasn't said this to me but I keep asking myself why would I deprive the one I love of something she wants that I can't give her (obviously I am referring to being with another woman). I haven't been able to answer that.

[Bryanp]

What? You as a husband would not wish to deprive her of enjoying sex with other women because you cannot provide the desire and variety that she craves. I guess you will have no problem waiting for your wife to return home from an evening of sex with a lady friend. This is a slow train wreck waiting to happen.

[garfunckles]

What? You as a husband would not wish to deprive her of enjoying sex with other women because you cannot provide the desire and variety that she craves. I guess you will have no problem waiting for your wife to return home from an evening of sex with a lady friend. This is a slow train wreck waiting to happen.

 

When you put it that way it does sound harsh.

 

But I can see how someone who is bisexual wants/needs the touch of both sexes, obviously one sex cannot provide that. As a heterosexual we can get all we need from the one sex.

 

I really don't know, I can see both sides here. I would love for her to only want to be with me but if that can't happen and she does want a girlfriend is it worth walking away? I'm not so sure.

[veritas lux mea]

I have a friend who enjoys sex with women. She is in a LTR with a guy who is okay with her being with other women. She does not get attatched to these women. They also do threesomes and it really seems to work for them. It is not my cup of tea but because he allows it it is not cheating. And as far as I know they still have a great sex life. She isn't really with girls a lot just from time to time.

 

If you think you are okay with it but not sure tell her so. Let er know you may not be able to share her even with other girls. Or if you feel she is neglecting you for these girls. Usually, except on here lol, a guy is not looked down on in the same way when he shares his wife with girls as he is when it is men.

[garfunckles]

I have a friend who enjoys sex with women. She is in a LTR with a guy who is okay with her being with other women.

 

This is what she wants and I can see her side of this. But someone else raised a good point, how will I feel sitting at home on a Saturday night babysitting the kids while she's out with her lover? That is a bit of a concern.

 

My other big concern considering our past is that there is a very real chance that her girlfriends become our girlfriends. We have been down that road before and as much fun as it was it was more trouble than it was worth. I am not sure either of us is strong enough to stick to the boundary that it's her girlfriend only.

 

A 'normal' relationship would be great but what is normal these days? So many of our friends have varying degrees of openness that it seems that being open and honest rather than monogamous is the new normal.

[Darren Steez]

I see what you're trying to do there but it's not correct. We sorted our issues out and we moved on. Yes, things have taken a turn for the worse but after reading a number of threads in the last few hours that seems to be a possibility with or without a counselor. Why then would I waste my money to have someone tell me what to do with no more of a guarantee of success than having a long good hard look at myself and my situation?

 

Each to their own though, if they work for you then by all means use them. They are not for us though.

 

And that clearly worked out didn't it.

 

You've got an answer for everything OP from the advice you've been given. What exactly are you looking for since you clearly have all the answers and things have worked out so far...not

[Darren Steez]

I've taken a rather open view on this at the moment because I am still not sure.

 

I am not bi-sexual myself, you know been there tried it didn't like it, so it's hard for me to understand what it feels like to when you're attracted to someone of the same sex.

 

She says a woman can give her things I can't. That actually makes sense to me. Whereas I wouldn't need to see another woman because I already have a woman. That makes sense as well. She says she wont see other men because I am her man and can give her what she wants from men.

 

I don't know, maybe other bisexual people in relationships can comment. It sort of makes sense to me.

 

She hasn't said this to me but I keep asking myself why would I deprive the one I love of something she wants that I can't give her (obviously I am referring to being with another woman). I haven't been able to answer that.

 

What's being attracted to another sex got to do with being faithful?

I like women, I'm attracted to them, I might be in another relationship and see the hottest woman but it doesn't mean I'm entitled to bang her.

 

Again you have an answer for everything...I'm 2x4ing you because cheating is cheating, an open relationship with another woman will never be just for sex, so how will it work? She finds one partner or she can have as many partners as she chooses and all these partners will comply and keep it at just sex and not become emotionally involved, as will you partner. Can you really see this happening?

[garfunckles]

What's being attracted to another sex got to do with being faithful?

 

Being faithful does not necessarily mean being monogamous. As long as she remains faithful within the boundaries we set then I could be happy with that.

 

I like women, I'm attracted to them, I might be in another relationship and see the hottest woman but it doesn't mean I'm entitled to bang her.

 

I am assuming you are male by your user name? If you are in a relationship with a female then you can get everything you need from her. If however you were bisexual and you craved/wanted a penis then your female partner cannot provide that.

 

I guess the debate in my head is whether in that case it would be acceptable, assuming all parties are fully aware, to allow one to find that penis elsewhere.

 

cheating is cheating

 

Having an open relationship and allowing certain things within set boundaries is not cheating though.

 

She finds one partner or she can have as many partners as she chooses and all these partners will comply and keep it at just sex and not become emotionally involved, as will you partner. Can you really see this happening?

 

You make a very good point and this is part of my reluctance to agree to it. But all the arguments to say no to it are not entirely persuasive. I want to think this through and not jump to a decision.

 

Hence why I am seeking as much input as possible so I can make an informed decision. There would be no point getting input from only churchies just as much as there would be no point getting input from only swingers.

[Darren Steez]

Being faithful does not necessarily mean being monogamous. As long as she remains faithful within the boundaries we set then I could be happy with that

 

 

Ok I'll bite because I'm having a hard time with this. Anyway the above statement, you laid down boundaries before and that worked out great didn't it, again you have answered everything, you have a comeback for everything so I assume you know what you're doing.

 

We all have needs, but being married or being in a relationship means guess what, you have to give up on your needs/wants/habits whatever you want to call it.

 

You both have a history of being unfaithful, you seem to have worked out your problems but she's still cheating. You've attended IC/MC but has she?

I get that she's bi, but she seems to have an excuse for everything, she's bi, she cheated because you did first..

 

Look man, good luck to you and your partner, but open relationships for the most part end in tears, and you have children involved, I'd think about them. Good luck

[fellini]

Experience has shown me that talking about open relationships in LS is pretty limiting. There are some, not many, especially in infidelity thread, that are able to grasp a definition of fidelity within the context of non-monogamous agreements. Take a look at the thread about a woman who kissed another woman on the lips because he husband was getting off on lesbian porn and you'll see how much tunnel vision exists inside this community.

 

Esther Perel has some great stuff on open marriages. Check her out. She especially has written about post D-day couples, one of the few to do this, going back and looking at what makes a post-infidelity marriage work within the context of open marriages as well. Not for me, but the arguments are clearly sound.

 

 

Being faithful does not necessarily mean being monogamous. As long as she remains faithful within the boundaries we set then I could be happy with that.

 

 

 

I am assuming you are male by your user name? If you are in a relationship with a female then you can get everything you need from her. If however you were bisexual and you craved/wanted a penis then your female partner cannot provide that.

 

I guess the debate in my head is whether in that case it would be acceptable, assuming all parties are fully aware, to allow one to find that penis elsewhere.

 

 

 

Having an open relationship and allowing certain things within set boundaries is not cheating though.

 

 

 

You make a very good point and this is part of my reluctance to agree to it. But all the arguments to say no to it are not entirely persuasive. I want to think this through and not jump to a decision.

 

Hence why I am seeking as much input as possible so I can make an informed decision. There would be no point getting input from only churchies just as much as there would be no point getting input from only swingers.

[fellini]

Last time I checked, the place where most damage being done to traditional marriages was inside the so-called bible belt and within highly Christian communities in the US of A.

 

Research is clear about this, people who are involved in open marriages are EXTREMELY RELUCTANT to talk, let alone participate in any exposure of their lifestyle because they know exactly how intolerant the majority can be about people who live outside the "norm". So unless you work exclusively in some kind of research about open marriages, and have found a sample large enough to be significant and willing to share with you their daily struggles, Im not sure how you can make such an assertion... maybe it just rolls off the tongue like a lot of people here who say things without actually having knowledge, because it just makes sense saying it?

 

And then throwing in the bit about the children? Yet another cliche: since when did people in open marriages STOP thinking about their children? Is it so difficult to get around the idea of an open marriage that the only result we can grab onto is "but the children"? If a man or woman can cheat on their heterosexual spouse during 5, 10 15 years, without anyone the wiser, I don't see how two people cannot come to arrangements that do not involve the children in their adult decisions.

 

... but open relationships for the most part end in tears, and you have children involved, I'd think about them. Good luck

Edited April 14, 2014 by fellini

[garfunckles]

Anyway the above statement, you laid down boundaries before and that worked out great didn't it

 

No, it obviously didn't. I was willing to forgive and move forward then but she messed up.

 

Should I forgive her and try again? Probably not, but our family means the world to me and if she can convince me she is sincere then maybe it can work out this time. If it means she gets a same sex lover to make it work maybe it's worth that sacrifice.

 

I certainly haven't made my mind up yet.

 

We all have needs, but being married or being in a relationship means guess what, you have to give up on your needs/wants/habits whatever you want to call it.

 

I used to think this but my wife along with a few close friends and surprisingly our counselor as well has made me rethink that.

 

Why does being married mean you have to give up your "needs/wants/habits"? Sure a traditional marriage says so, but in this day and age marriage is what you make it and if will work for us who says it's wrong?

 

I'm not even sure I agree with that but that is what I am debating.

 

You've attended IC/MC but has she?

 

We have been to a MC and both have separate IC's. She is struggling with this as well. She says she wants to be with just me but to her credit is honest enough to say she doesn't know if she can when it comes to women.

[fellini]

WOW!!! Being in a relationship means GIVING UP YOUR NEEDS!!!!,

 

 

WHOA, my bad, I didn't quote you correctly: being in a R means YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP ON YOUR NEEDS!!!

 

Now there is a formula for a successful union between two consenting adults if I ever saw one.

 

We all have needs, but being married or being in a relationship means guess what, you have to give up on your needs/wants/habits whatever you want to call it.

Good luck

 

Is this what you have done Darren? Or is it just advice you have for "open couples"?

[garfunckles]

WHOA, my bad, I didn't quote you correctly: being in a R means YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP ON YOUR NEEDS!!!

 

Now there is a formula for a successful union between two consenting adults if I ever saw one.

 

I thank you fellini for understanding my dilemma and realizing that a traditional marriage is not the answer for everyone.

 

I am not sure I am ready for a fully open relationship but a compromise of allowing her even limited access to other women certainly has it's appeal to me. It's certainly more appealing than ending our relationship.

[fellini]

Based on current statistics for divorce, infidelity, divorce after remarriage, and spousal abuse, id say the institution of the traditional marriage is not the answer for more than maybe 5% of the population!

 

Best of luck!

 

 

I thank you fellini for understanding my dilemma and realizing that a traditional marriage is not the answer for everyone.

 

I am not sure I am ready for a fully open relationship but a compromise of allowing her even limited access to other women certainly has it's appeal to me. It's certainly more appealing than ending our relationship.

[onemanband]

It only happened once that's the one time u caught them just think that is a big step for only

The first time if it was me I would leave

[bubbaganoosh]

Not a big fan of counseling. I think people should be able to sort things out themselves. We managed to sort things out ourselves the first times.

 

 

 

I thought we had already done that. Obviously I need to make it blatantly clear what I expect from her if we are to move forward.

 

 

It's obvious that neither one of you did a good job sorting it out on your own.

 

Look. The woman has no respect for you and the marriage and why you would want to stay with someone who can not and will not ever be wife material. Your just whistling past the graveyard here and refuse to see that she hasn't learned anything from past mistakes and as long as your willing to keep looking the other way, then someday your going to come home and have a bus parked in your driveway full of guys and girls doing their thing with her.

 

If that's what you want then go for it but IMO your in for a lot more of the same from her and until you wake up and realize that there is better out there, you better be prepared for a ton of misery.

[BHsigh]

Garfunkles,

 

 

I have nothing against open marriages, they aren't for me, but I can see why some people want them, and more power to them. But from everything that I've read, you need a strong relationship, a lot of trust for each other and the ability to keep strong boundaries, you two are lacking these things.

 

But who know, maybe your GF can stick to boundaries once she is able to have a GF, but what happens when her GF pushes her to let her husband join in again?

[Grumpybutfun]

Sit down and discuss parameters of exactly what you can live with. Time limits, certain acts, being included, not exposing your children to anymore of your drama, continued communication,etc. Place a probationary time limit of say one month to see how you both feel at the end and then renegotiate parameters or stop seeking needs outside of your relationship in general. The important thing is that both of you feel you are being heard and your needs are being met. This isn't insurmountable, though I do think you need to let her know that duplicity of any kind will result in a termination of relationship and some deep consequences. Work together to find a solution but do not allow infidelity in your relationship or you will be a cuckhold and end up resenting her and losing all self respect. Plus, that isn't what you want to model for your children.

Negotiate, agree and implement boundaries,

Grumps

[ThatMan]

And then throwing in the bit about the children? Yet another cliche: since when did people in open marriages STOP thinking about their children? Is it so difficult to get around the idea of an open marriage that the only result we can grab onto is "but the children"?

Wow, you're clearly on a mission.

 

Children cannot offer the same consent as adults. They never had the choice to involve themselves in a relationship that's so toxic that a man scared the crap out of himself while raising his hand to strike a woman. Go ahead and believe whatever you want, that this is somehow about open relationships, and continue shilling out your campaign of confronting all those injustices that society unloads onto non-monogamy.

 

OP,

I doubt that you're even looking for support in addressing your issue. I have the impression you're searching for validation rather than constructive input. You seem to have some retort for everything any member suggests. And now you're thanking somebody for talking about open marriages when that wasn't the problem in the first place. You're putting yourself in a bad position all because you'll rather suffer than be alone. That's what is commonly referred to as a toxic relationship.

 

Pursue individual therapy for yourself and not couples counseling. When a spouse suffers through mistreatment, pain, abuse, violence, discomfort, whatever the case might be all because they would rather remain than be single - it's an incredibly toxic situation.

 

Good luck and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited April 14, 2014 by ThatMan

[whatatangledweb]

I don't have an issue with other people having an open marriage. From what I have learned they have rules and if you go beyond them you are cheating. Is she allowed to have girlfriends-emotional connection or just one night stands? Is she allowed to do it but only if you watch( seems like that is normal in those types of relationships? What I would worry about is if she fell in love with one of them . If you are willing to do this then you both need to work on the rules.

 

I am not nor would I be in an open marriage. I don't judge others for how they work their marriages together.

[bigman1]

G, think about this: She changed the game on you. You came into this thinking she was only into men and she kept her bi-sexuality from you. That was a huge deception. She then gets outed as she acts on it and now you are supposed to figure out how to incorporate new rules into the game. This does not bode well for you.

 

Additionally, don't get caught up in this fantasy world of my lady likes ladies and I'm gonna get benefits. your lady is going to fall in love with another woman. Real true, intense hard core feelings for another woman. It can't be about sex the whole time. It's going to be about more. Then what? What happens if the other woman becomes the main course and you are relegated to side dish? You know how the speech will go, "I never meant for this to happen. I never wanted to hurt you. I love you, but she completes me."

 

If you are fine with that game, go for it. I just think that she hid stuff from you until now and you have to adjust. Also, being married does not mean that you give up fulfillment, etc. It is not an either - or concept. Still, that does not matter here.

 

You can dictate rules for a sexual encounter, but you cannot dictate rules for the heart. Are you going to put out a rule that she can never be with the same woman twice? No more than one month with the same woman? Good luck, you are going to need it.

[BHsigh]

G, think about this: She changed the game on you. You came into this thinking she was only into men and she kept her bi-sexuality from you. That was a huge deception. She then gets outed as she acts on it and now you are supposed to figure out how to incorporate new rules into the game. This does not bode well for you.

 

Additionally, don't get caught up in this fantasy world of my lady likes ladies and I'm gonna get benefits. your lady is going to fall in love with another woman. Real true, intense hard core feelings for another woman. It can't be about sex the whole time. It's going to be about more. Then what? What happens if the other woman becomes the main course and you are relegated to side dish? You know how the speech will go, "I never meant for this to happen. I never wanted to hurt you. I love you, but she completes me."

 

If you are fine with that game, go for it. I just think that she hid stuff from you until now and you have to adjust. Also, being married does not mean that you give up fulfillment, etc. It is not an either - or concept. Still, that does not matter here.

 

You can dictate rules for a sexual encounter, but you cannot dictate rules for the heart. Are you going to put out a rule that she can never be with the same woman twice? No more than one month with the same woman? Good luck, you are going to need it.

 

Better yet, what happens when the woman and her bf/husband become the main dish and he becomes the side dish. She's already been with another couple after all. It's not about being with another woman, it's about being with other people.

[garfunckles]

G, think about this: She changed the game on you. You came into this thinking she was only into men and she kept her bi-sexuality from you. That was a huge deception. She then gets outed as she acts on it and now you are supposed to figure out how to incorporate new rules into the game. This does not bode well for you.

 

I'm not sure how you got this impression. She has always been bi-sexual, we have had threesomes together in the past, it has never been hidden from me.

 

You are right thought that I am now considering how I can incorporate her bi-sexuality into our relationship. That is because the threesomes etc have now stopped so unless we come to some agreement of her seeing women she will no longer be able to do so.

 

Not being bi-sexual myself I cannot speak from first hand knowledge but I don't think it's fair that I deny her those experiences. If anything I was the one changing the rules when we stopped the threesomes and moved to just a monogamous relationship.

 

I know that's a very contentious position but that is the way I am feeling right now.

 

your lady is going to fall in love with another woman. Real true, intense hard core feelings for another woman. It can't be about sex the whole time. It's going to be about more. Then what? What happens if the other woman becomes the main course and you are relegated to side dish? You know how the speech will go, "I never meant for this to happen. I never wanted to hurt you. I love you, but she completes me."

 

This as I have said previously is one of my biggest concerns. If it wasn't I probably would have already agreed to let her see other women.

 

The choice is though, do I take that risk and hope that she will realise and stop it or put my foot down and say never again and deny her part of who she is? I guess there is a third choice that we could do it together but that got too messy last time.