Ex-girlfriend broke up with me twice

[counterman]

I had been dating a girl for 4 months before she broke up with me because we had too many arguments. A few days later, she realised she missed me and we got back together, only to break up with me one month later. I realised so many issues from our relationship in the past was carried over to what was meant to be a fresh start. Even until the end I wanted to keep trying and thought we could have resolved our issues. But she said she tried her hardest and she couldn't try anymore. I also made a mistake. In the few days leading to our break-up, we argued a lot. I ruined her night out with her friends and when she tried to work with me through it, I guess I was still angry and I reacted in the wrong way. I didn't appreciate the effort she was making. That really crushed her and she broke up with me as a result. However, in the past, she didn't appreciate the efforts I was making and I kept my resolve because I knew in the end she would come through.

 

Though, despite that, I had been really good to her throughout our relationship. I loved her so much, and was always there for her - when she was sick, I would take care of her. She wasn't treating me badly either.

 

We just had issues resolving our arguments and weren't communicating well on that front. We were making progress but I sort of blew it. I thought I would have been forgiven, because I was really sorry and apologetic but she was still very upset. I asked her to give it a few days to think about whether she wanted to continue to work with me or not. She took a couple of hours.

 

I made a lot of mistakes afterwards, like breaking No Contact. I texted her several times, but today I am making a firm commitment to not contact her.

 

This is a place I can journal my feelings And I would love your thoughts on what happened. Feel free to ask questions

 

I was trying to understand her mindset this time. And later, when we've both moved on, maybe there is a chance we can reconcile or maybe I'll meet someone new and have a happy relationship

[Arieswoman]

She's an ex for a reason.

 

Try this book, it's very enlightening ;-

 

"It's called a breakup because it's broken" by Greg Behrendt & Amiira Ruotolo-Behrendt published by Harper-Collins.

 

Stop chewing over what happened, you can't re-write the past. Stay NC and move on.

[counterman]

Thanks! I've actually got the book and I've been reading it

 

You're right; I have to stay NC and move on

[Timpye]

Sounds like a similar story to me man. Except we were going out for almost 4 years.. I realise after the break up I tend to blame myself for it not working out too (which you are doing). I think to a point we are over exaggerating our own blame, what I'm trying to do is go NC and if I'm ever given another chance is work on the things I could have done differently whether that be with a new partner or ex. It may be to early for you to do this but what helps me is to try think of the positives of going through a break up. Eg. You know how you can be a better partner, know how to not take things for granted, know the importance of communication in relationships and you will overall be stronger for going through something so tough (may be able to better deal with it if it happens again, I don't know). Anyway all the best

Edited January 29, 2014 by Timpye

[counterman]

Sounds like a similar story to me man. Except we were going out for almost 4 years.. I realise after the break up I tend to blame myself for it not working out too (which you are doing). I think to a point we are over exaggerating our own blame, what I'm trying to do is go NC and if I'm ever given another chance is work on the things I could have done differently whether that be with a new partner or ex. It may be to early for you to do this but what helps me is to try think of the positives of going through a break up. Eg. You know how you can be a better partner, know how to not take things for granted, know the importance of communication in relationships and you will overall be stronger for going through something so tough (may be able to better deal with it if it happens again, I don't know). Anyway all the best

 

Thanks That really helps, thinking of the positives of going through a break-up. True it sucks now and the pain will be there, but ultimately, we will come out better

 

I tend to blame myself and take a lot of responsibility for the break-up but it's important that I don't beat myself up over it. I need to accept the mistakes I've made and learn from them, not think back and keep replaying the same mistakes and getting frustrated over it. I find it rather helpful to accept my responsibility that contributed to the break-up

 

All the best to you too - NC is truly the best way to be able to work on ourselves. The reason why my ex and I didn't work the 2nd time around was because we only had a few days apart before getting back together. We didn't have nearly enough time to work on things, to see if this relationship was what we really wanted

[Timpye]

What you said is spot on, and what I'm trying to think of if. It is my first break up and I'm no expert but that sounds like a good plan. Thanks. That's funny because when she first broke up with me it was only for a few days aswell, and your probably right we needed more time to think about what went wrong instead of going straight back. And i guess that's what's frustrating because you feel as tho you lost a chance. Anyway it's in the past now, keep us updated on how you go or if she contacts you.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Timpye

[Envy_rodge]

This is a power play on her part. If she breaks up with you, or says "I need a break" (which is also breaking up) and you still want her back, that puts all the power in her hands.

 

She does it because you let her, you should have walked away.

[counterman]

What you said is spot on, and what I'm trying to think of if. It is my first break up and I'm no expert but that sounds like a good plan. Thanks. That's funny because when she first broke up with me it was only for a few days aswell, and your probably right we needed more time to think about what went wrong instead of going straight back. And i guess that's what's frustrating because you feel as tho you lost a chance. Anyway it's in the past now, keep us updated on how you go or if she contacts you.

 

We definitely needed more time. What happened was, because I initiated NC the first time around and let her know during the break-up that I wouldn't be contacting her, she realised that I would basically be completely gone from her life. She started missing me a few days later and I thought she thought it through what it meant to be coming back and how much work there would be. I guess I hadn't thought it through either. Ideally, we wanted to forget the past issues but they kept creeping up. Why? Because we hadn't dealt with them properly in the past; we just argued and nothing was resolved. Also, we didn't have that time to really reflect on why the relationship didn't work out the first time.

 

She broke up with me for a reason, even though I may not have agreed at the time. She was angry the first time and it all happened so fast. The second time she was upset and it happened fast too. It was like a trigger being pulled. I'm sure a lot contributed to the break-ups but, in my opinion, I felt that they were able to be resolved. I was one that kept trying, even through hard times. I can't say she wasn't. We were just in two different head spaces.

 

It is frustrating and I do feel we've lost a chance. We had made plans to be in each other's lives but I guess things change. I think if she had let things settle down, instead of acting on a moment of unhappiness, we may have still been together.

 

At the moment, what I'm thinking changes from day to day. I wake up with new realisations, which I guess was clouded before by my feelings for her and me missing her. And that's what NC allows for, as that chemical dependency fades, you start to see the real picture.

 

This is a power play on her part. If she breaks up with you, or says "I need a break" (which is also breaking up) and you still want her back, that puts all the power in her hands.

 

She does it because you let her, you should have walked away.

 

It probably was power play. I did let her back into my life. I realise that if she broke up with me in the first place, even though I was trying my best and willing to commit to working on issues with her, then something wasn't right for her in the relationship. I should have walked away but I wanted to give myself another chance at a potentially great relationship.

 

The reality is, we both made it clear that this second chance was our last one. The way we went about it was so wrong. Most importantly, it would have taken time and patience to be able to work on things together but when it got really tough, it was too much for her.

 

UPDATE: So, last night, I did the unforgivable and broke NC. I know I shouldn't have done it. It was basically one last text to explain to her why we should both go on NC and to wish her the best for the future. Don't worry, I'm not contacting her anymore. I was just saying goodbye.

 

She replied with saying that she thought I would be there during this tough time (because I was her best friend and the one she always turned to). She told me a bit about her life and saying things aren't going well at the moment. She said it hurts when I say goodbye.

 

Just to let you guys know, she thought I would still be in contact with her. It was the same thing when we first broke up. But I can't be giving her emotional support right now, especially since we broke up.

 

It's a vicious cycle. If she does want me back, I know if I go back to her and things get tough, she'll break up with me again. If we were to ever get back together, or even have the chance to, we'll both have to completely move on first.

 

It's best for me to use this time to improve on myself.

[counterman]

She sent me a text saying goodnight last night and I didn't respond. It hit me in the face and I was sad for a bit. I needed to let it all out. I walked away and just cried.

 

These next few days will be tough because we had made fun plans with each other. Obviously, that's not happening now.

 

I need to stay strong and stick to NC.

[notthathard]

Twice = too many times already.

 

Don't even drop the work 'reconcile', move on!

 

If your looking for an LTR then find someone who is willing to work through relationship problems and not walk/run away from them (this includes yourself).

 

I am yet to meet a long term couple who have not had a decent fight or problems through their relationship. All it takes is the two to sit down and work them out maturely. If you cant work out the problems then you both walk away as a mutual decision.

[counterman]

Twice = too many times already.

 

Don't even drop the work 'reconcile', move on!

 

If your looking for an LTR then find someone who is willing to work through relationship problems and not walk/run away from them (this includes yourself).

 

I am yet to meet a long term couple who have not had a decent fight or problems through their relationship. All it takes is the two to sit down and work them out maturely. If you cant work out the problems then you both walk away as a mutual decision.

 

I agree. That's the thing, we couldn't sit down maturely and work out our problems. Whenever I would raise an issue, she would react defensively to it. I always felt like I was being attacked. And I understand that there are little things that are never worth arguing over. But when it came to the more important issues, it takes no small amount of effort and work. Instead of saying "what can I do to help me understand you better or to make it better for you?" - we would act defensive. I hate running away from relationship problems.

 

During the second go at the the relationship, I knew she wasn't ready to handle any of it discussions on issues. Every time I would raise something calmly, she would react angrily.

 

I want a LTR with a girl who's willing to go through these tougher times with me, someone who has faith in me that I am committed to working through our issues and come out better the other end.

Edited January 31, 2014 by counterman

[Els]

I sincerely advise that you don't allow her to do it a third time.

 

Please stay strong and take care of yourself.

[H245]

I agree. That's the thing, we couldn't sit down maturely and work out our problems. Whenever I would raise an issue, she would react defensively to it. I always felt like I was being attacked. And I understand that there are little things that are never worth arguing over. But when it came to the more important issues, it takes no small amount of effort and work. Instead of saying "what can I do to help me understand you better or to make it better for you?" - we would act defensive. I hate running away from relationship problems.

 

During the second go at the the relationship, I knew she wasn't ready to handle any of it discussions on issues. Every time I would raise something calmly, she would react angrily.

 

I want a LTR with a girl who's willing to go through these tougher times with me, someone who has faith in me that I am committed to working through our issues and come out better the other end.

 

I know exactly how you feel. I've been 1 month BU 1 week NC (except for when I see her at trivia and I just do a polite wave). We dated for about 8 months with 3 break ups in between.

 

We could never sit down and talk out our issues out. Whenever I would bring it up, she would get frustrated or tell me to talk to my therapist because she didn't know what to say. Each time we broke up, she just walked away and never fought for me or the relationship. It was so sad since when we tried at it a second time she said she wanted to be there with me through the good times and the bad. Guess that was a lie just like when she told me she couldn't see a future without me 2 days prior to breaking up.

[counterman]

I sincerely advise that you don't allow her to do it a third time.

 

Please stay strong and take care of yourself.

 

Thanks The support here will certainly help

 

I know exactly how you feel. I've been 1 month BU 1 week NC (except for when I see her at trivia and I just do a polite wave). We dated for about 8 months with 3 break ups in between.

 

We could never sit down and talk out our issues out. Whenever I would bring it up, she would get frustrated or tell me to talk to my therapist because she didn't know what to say. Each time we broke up, she just walked away and never fought for me or the relationship. It was so sad since when we tried at it a second time she said she wanted to be there with me through the good times and the bad. Guess that was a lie just like when she told me she couldn't see a future without me 2 days prior to breaking up.

 

I'm glad I could share this with you and that you know how it feels

 

That hits me hard. She never fought for the relationship or for me too. With my ex, you would think with her past relationships and how those guys treated her (she had an ex that cheated on her with several women, another who was emotionless and didn't care at all about her) that she would fight to hold onto something as precious as what we had.

 

And the things your ex said about seeing a future with you and being there for the good times and bad, it really makes you think doesn't it. A week before breaking up with me the first time, my ex said she didn't want me to ever break-up with her and that she was happy with me. She was speaking about travelling together and even looked ahead beyond a year. But when the bad times came around, she wanted none of it. Maybe it is an emotional thing. When she was happy, she saw a bright future. When she was angry, she would think of the unhappy times.

 

Now that I think about it, most of our issues could have been resolved with calm, mature discussions - trying to understand and help each other. Instead, it would get heated. The difference was, there was always love on my end even when we would argue. All I would want to do was stop, make up and work things out. She held onto her anger. Like an animal backed into a corner, she would attack. And these communication skills are worthwhile, even if things didn't work out between us. At least learn them so that you can carry them onto future relationships.

[counterman]

My ex contacted me several times last night... she was out with her friends and the night had turned bad. She felt lonely and scared and wanted to talk to me. She kept messaging me to come to her. And she called a few times. I didn't reply to the messages and I didn't pick up.

 

When I was with her, I would always be there for her, as I would expect a partner would be. I was reliable, always there to comfort her, to take care of her. It hurt not being able to this time. It hurt even more that it was only when the night turned sour, she contacted me.

 

She messaged me several hours later, when she had time to think, explaining what had happened and why she had called me. She wanted me to comfort her like I use to. She wanted to talk to me and only me. I must say this made me cry. I do care about her, but at the moment and probably never again, can I be that person for her, that person to lean on. She knew that when I was with her that I was somebody she could always count on. She knew.

 

At the end of the message, she said she'll leave me alone and said goodbye.

 

I've held it together for a while now but now I'm grieving again. I'll stay strong with NC, though.

[Downtown]

I would love your thoughts on what happened. ...I was trying to understand her mindset this time.

CM, I agree with what SalParadise told you about BPD red flags last November (on 11/12/13) in your "Emotionally Unstable" thread. The behaviors you describe -- i.e., emotional instability, verbal abuse, lack of trust, lack of impulse control, black-white thinking, childhood abuse by angry father, and rapid flips between adoring and devaluing you -- are classic warning signs of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

 

Of course, you cannot diagnose your exGF. That is, you cannot determine whether her BPD traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can make a diagnosis. Hence, if you are ever tempted to take her back, I strongly recommend you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you were dealing with.

 

There is a world of difference, however, between making a diagnosis (which is very difficult) and simply spotting the warning signs for a disorder (which is not difficult to do). You are capable of spotting the red flags for BPD -- if you take time to learn what to look for -- because there is nothing subtle about strong occurrences of traits such as always being "The Victim" and the push-away/pull-back cycle.

 

I caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the BPD traits -- albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your exGF exhibits these traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she has most of these BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I cannot know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any red flags that exist if you take time to learn the warning signs. Being able to spot these signs is important because, until you are able to do so, you are at risk of leaving her only to run right into the arms of another woman just like her.

My girlfriend is emotionally unstable. [Your 11/12 post.]

Emotional instability commonly is caused by hormone changes (e.g., pregnancy, postpartum, and puberty) and drug abuse (and, rarely, can be caused by a brain injury or tumor). Because you mention none of those in your several threads about this young woman, I note that the two remaining common causes of instability are bipolar disorder and BPD. Significantly, the behaviors you describe -- e.g., sudden event-triggered mood changes, abandonment fear, and rapid flips between adoring and devaluing you are -- are warning signs for BPD, not bipolar.

 

I further note that emotional instability is the key defining trait of BPD. That is, of the 9 defining traits, the one that is essential and most important is instability. This is one reason that a large segment of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for two decades to change the name of this disorder to "Emotional Regulation Disorder." Further, this trait distinguishes BPD from all of the other personality disorders (PDs). It is the only one having "emotional instability" as a defining trait.

Things seemingly go well and then all of a sudden, she's very moody and upset.

As Sal stated, these rapid flips between loving you and devaluing you are called "splitting," aka "black-white thinking." If your exGF is a "BPDer" (i.e., has moderate to strong traits), her emotional development likely is frozen at the level of a four year old. If so, she never learned how to integrate the good and bad aspects of her own personality.

 

That is, a BPDer never reached that point where she realized that she is BOTH good and bad, i.e., basically a good girl who occasionally does bad things and has bad thoughts. This is why BPDers are so intolerant of ambiguities, uncertainties, dualities, mixed feelings, and the other grey areas of interpersonal relationships.

 

The result is that a BPDer will shoehorn everyone (including herself) into a white or black box so she knows how to deal with them. This will be evident in the way she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone in a few seconds from one polar extreme to the other, based solely on a minor comment or infraction. It also will be evident in the frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "You NEVER..." and "You ALWAYS...."

She's had a rough childhood, with her parents getting divorced. Her father had a violent temper.

Most abused children do NOT develop BPD but such abuse does greatly raise the risk of developing it. A recent survey of about 35,000 American adults found that 70% of the BPDers report that they had been abused or abandoned in childhood. This abuse is especially damaging when it happens before age five because it can prevent the child from developing an integrated, strong sense of who she is.

There has got to be a way for us to both communicate how we're feeling. At the moment, this is ruining our relationship.

If your exGF has strong BPD traits, the lack of communication is NOT the main problem. Rather, the issues are far more serious and must be addressed -- by years in intensive therapy -- before acquiring communication skills would be helpful. This is why MC -- which teaches communication skills -- usually is a waste of time for BPDer relationships.

 

The BPDer must first learn basic skills that should have been learned in early childhood. She must learn, e.g., how to trust, how to love in a mature way, how to do self soothing, how to control her emotions, and how to intellectually challenge her intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident "facts." Until those skills are learned, all the communication in the world won't save the relationship.

The highs are good but the lows are dreadful.

When a BPDer is being "good," she is very VERY good. BPDers generally display a purity of expression and childlike warmth that is very enticing. It therefore is not surprising that two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. This loving side of BPDers is so intense that the toxic relationship has an addictive aspect to it. The downside, of course, is that you never know what is going to be behind the door when you go home at night.

She doesn't trust me enough but wants to open up to me. [9/16]

If she has strong BPD traits, she is incapable of trusting you. Until she learns how to trust herself, she will be incapable of trusting anyone else. This is sad because TRUST is the foundation on which all LTRs must be built. If you don't have that, the r/s will not be successful.

Every time I would raise something calmly, she would react angrily.

If she is an untreated BPDer, it will be impossible to have a calm, rational discussion with her about any sensitive issue -- and nearly all issues will be sensitive. The reason is that a BPDer carries enormous hurt and anger inside from early childhood. Moreover, she lacks the ability to regulate her own emotions. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. It is already there right under the skin. Hence, you only have to do or say some minor thing that TRIGGERS the anger that's always there. This is why a BPDer is always 10 seconds from an angry outburst. Sadly, there are few issues that can be resolved in 10 seconds.

She says she's afraid I will leave her when I get really angry.

If she has strong BPD traits, she has two great fears, one of which is abandonment. Because the fear is so painful, it is common for BPDers to preemptively abandon their partners before it can be done to them.

She recently told me that she finds it hard to deal with being close to me sometimes and this causes her enormous anxiety. [11/12]

The other great fear a BPDer has is engulfment, the frightening feeling of being controlled and suffocated during intimacy. It can feel like one is evaporating into thin air, losing yourself into your partner's strong personality. This is why, although BPDers crave intimacy and closeness, they cannot tolerate it for very long. And this is why the very WORST fights usually will occur during or immediately after the very BEST of times, e.g., a wonderful weekend or intimate evening spent together.

I know I am nothing like her past boyfriends and I know she tells me things about them to let me know that she hopes I'm not like them.

No, you don't know that. If your exGF is a BPDer, she likely is describing you pretty much the same as she did the other Exes. When she is splitting you black, she won't think of much good to say about you. As to that "good friend" she spends so much time with, I suspect you were witnessing "triangulation," a strategy that is commonly used by BPDers to play one person off against the other -- with the goal of reducing the chances of abandonment.

 

If you would like to read more about the typical BPD warning signs, CM, I suggest you take a look at my several posts in Rebel's thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/275289-crazy-i-think-but-i-love-her-anyway#post3398735. If that description rings some bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. And I suspect Sal would be glad to join us to share his experiences. Take care, CM.

[salparadise]

I tend to blame myself and take a lot of responsibility for the break-up but it's important that I don't beat myself up over it. I need to accept the mistakes I've made and learn from them, not think back and keep replaying the same mistakes and getting frustrated over it. I find it rather helpful to accept my responsibility that contributed to the break-up

 

CM, are you still in therapy? If not I'd suggest scheduling a few more sessions to work through some of this, or at least get yourself oriented as to the nature of what happened.

 

Downtown has given you a spot-on description of the nature of BPD while being careful not to presume that the diagnosis applies, and as he said, it really doesn't matter since you've thoroughly described the behaviors and the circumstances of her childhood (the etiology), and they are consistent.

 

But what I'm not seeing, based on the quoted text above, is the kind of awareness you're going to need to grow from this experience in such a way that you won't allow history to repeat itself with her or someone like her. You mentioned more than once the possibility of getting back together after the dust settles. This is proof positive that you need more understanding of the situation than introspection in the wake of the breakup is going to provide, especially when you seem to be focusing quite a bit on what you did wrong or how your mistakes contributed to the breakup.

 

I am a bit hesitant to just lay out the conclusions as the only way you're likely to integrate them is if you discover them yourself, probably through additional therapy but at least through studying the body of information that exists on this disorder and relationships with those who have it. "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Mason and Kregar is the classic text for those who are in a relationship with a BPD person. Now that you're out of the R it may be only tangentially applicable though. It's probably on the shelf at Barnes & Noble, so you could browse it, or browse through it online at Amazon. I have another book here that is a lot more academic than practical (not light reading) entitled "The Narcissistic/Borderline Couple" by Lachkar. It provides clinical perspectives from notable psychologists (Kohut, Kernburg, etc.) on Borderline relationships. NPDs and BPDs are like magnets to each other and it explores those dynamics, but there is a lot to be learned about the disorder generally as well. I don't in any way envision you as a Narc from what you've written, in case you're wondering.

 

But I do need to cut to the chase, so here are a few adjustments I believe you need to make in your thinking and introspection...

 

1. It's not your fault (the disorder or the breakup), so quit rationalizing how you contributed to the breakup. Introspection is good but need to be directed (therapy). The more pertinent question is why did you get drawn in, and why did it take you 8 months and 3-4 cycles to finally make the break?

 

2. All the king's horses and all the kings men couldn't put Humpdy Dumpty back together again. There is not a dog's chance in hell that you could have rescued her. BPD is infamously difficult to treat because a) you can't get them to stay in therapy (if you can get them to go at all), b) they cannot form an effective therapeutic alliance because they can't trust, and c) they use massive denial as the primary defense mechanism and are resistant, combative, sabotaging. Many therapists won't deal with them. Others say they can have no more than one on the roster at any given time because they consume to much energy. Most agree that there is no resolution, although some BPDs can benefit from treatment, to varying degrees.

 

3. Appeasing just makes it worse. Give them an inch and they take a mile. Being assertive is the way you keep from getting steamrolled, but they hate it when you insist that they (not you) are responsible for their behavior and it usually just elicits the wrath within. It's a catch-22; no win.

 

4. Let go of these notions you have about getting back together someday once the storm has blown over. One of the hallmarks is the cyclical pathology this disorder. The behaviors are driven by deep-seated emotions and adjustment to cognitive processes just isn't enough to break the default reactions to the unbearable emotional states they experience and react to.

 

Ultimately, I think you have to just let it go and concentrate on recognizing the traits early should you encounter a similar personality in the future. It's not that they aren't lovable; they certainly can be endearing when they're at their best. It's that they are volatile and can't manage their emotional states. They expect you to make it better, and when you can't you're a bad person because you didn't uphold your end of the unspoken agreement.

 

Hope this is of some benefit- all my best to you. It will get better. Stay with NC and just understand that it has to be done for your own sanity.

[counterman]

Thanks for your posts Downtown and salparadise; they're much appreciated

 

It's a real eye-opener as well as a lot to take in. To be honest, I hadn't really heard of BPD until Sal spoke about it in my other thread. So, when I was in the relationship, I wasn't looking at things objectively and must have missed a lot of the warning signs.

 

I'm not in therapy at the moment; is there an alternate to therapy? May you guys direct me through this so that I can understand better?

I would like greater understanding of what happened and of my ex and of BPD, so that I don't find myself in a situation like this again. I will read those texts you mentioned, Sal.

 

Why was I drawn it? That's a question I will have to explore.

 

On the top of my mind, there were a few things that caught my attention:

- In our first month of dating, the first mention of the though of LTR triggered thoughts about her ex that cheated on her and then broke up with her. She was so upset that she didn't talk to me that night, despite me desperately trying to reach her;

- During her teenage years, she had low self-esteem, and was suicidal and cut herself. Her mother had depression and wasn't very supportive. Her father wasn't always there;

- She spoke about her past as if those closest to her abandoned her, her family, friends and past boyfriends. She said that her ex-boyfriends all did something wrong;

- Whenever I could talk about any issue, she would flip the switch on me and then get angry, essentially defending herself and pushing me away. It would always be intense;

- When we got too close a few times, she would get really anxious and have panic attacks. She said she was still learning to trust me. During these moments, she would cry and sometimes attack me, by saying things like "you wanted to go this fast, but I didn't", etc.;

- During all of our arguments, she would keep saying "you just don't understand";

- I would be teaching her how to do something, like a new sport etc., and when she wouldn't get it the first time or second time, she would get slightly aggressive or angry and blame it on me for being a bad teacher;

- She seemed to have this emotional connection with this guy friend of hers. She feels the need to see him and talk to him about how she's feeling, which normally involved me;

- She was confused and angry sometimes for no reasons. There was a moment after one of our arguments that she said she was sorry because she didn't understand why she was like that;

- She rarely took responsibility for her part in issues or try to understand my perspective and compromise;

- She was often confused between wanting to spend more time with me and wanting more space away; when I wanted to spend more time with her, she would ask for space and when I didn't, she'll always ask to spend more time with me. It'll end up with us spending a lot of time together;

- She has said that she was 'happy' in our relationship many times but while breaking up with me, she said that she was 'unhappy'.

 

I'm sure there's a lot more but those are some that come to mind.

 

I hope to learn more about this

[Downtown]

During her teenage years, she had low self-esteem, and was suicidal and cut herself.

Suicidal threats/ideation and self harm are strongly associated with BPD. Indeed, they comprise one of the nine behavioral traits used by the diagnostic manual to define BPD. Moreover, the cutting by itself (without any suicide threats) is very strongly associated with BPD. A recent hospital study (pub. 2004), for example, found that most of the self harmers had BPD. It concluded:

The majority of those who self-mutilate are women with borderline personality disorder. This complex, maladaptive behavior is used by clients as a means of self-preservation and emotion regulation, and is often associated with childhood trauma.

See

Understanding those who se... [J Psychosoc Nurs Ment Health Serv. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

.

I'm not in therapy at the moment.

You may not need therapy. Neither Sal nor I has concluded that you do. Rather, I simply suggested that, if you are ever tempted to renew your R with your exGF, it would be prudent to first contact a psychologist -- for a visit or two -- to obtain a professional opinion on what you've been dealing with. Similarly, Sal encouraged you to seek therapy if you feel it would be helpful in addressing your remaining concerns about her.

 

I agree with Sal that, if you still find yourself upset about the breakup, seeing a therapist could be helpful. My sense from what you've written, however, is that you are not so much upset as you are determined to learn what happened so you can avoid repeating it with someone else in the future.

Why was I drawn it? That's a question I will have to explore.

There is a good chance, CM, that you are an excessive caregiver like me. The problem with excessive caregivers like me is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). Of course, there is nothing wrong about wanting to help others. But it can become dysfunctional when we keep helping even when it is to our great detriment to do so.

 

One result is that we caregivers have difficulty realizing that someone truly loves us if she doesn't also desperately need us. Another result is that we sometimes mistake "being needed" for "being loved." The best explanation of how excessive caregivers like me get to be this way in childhood is an article by Shari Schreiber at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. (Generally, I believe Schreiber confuses BPDers with narcissists and sociopaths but I find this particular article to be very insightful.)

In our first month of dating, the first mention of the thought of LTR triggered thoughts about her ex that cheated on her and then broke up with her. She was so upset that she didn't talk to me that night.

Perhaps so. Yet, if she is a BPDer, you likely are attaching way too much significance to the abuse she claims had occurred in an earlier R. For one thing, a BPDer typically has a distorted view of her Ex's intentions and therefore tends to bad mouth everyone who ever left her. As I said above, if she is a BPDer she likely is telling her new lover that you were as abusive as the other Exes.

 

For another thing, a BPDer's inability to trust does not originate in the late teens with an abusive lover. Instead, it typically originates before age five. Abuse done at that young age can be far more destructive because it may prevent the child from developing an integrated self image and from learning how to trust. Hence, if she is a BPDer, the thing that your "LTR comment" likely triggered was not her bad experience with her Ex but, rather, her great fear of engulfment -- a suffocating feeling that arises during intimacy and closeness. Significantly, telling someone you are in love and are wanting a LTR creates a very intimate moment.

She said she was still learning to trust me.

If she is a BPDer, it is extremely unlikely that any such learning was occurring. Absent many years of intensive therapy from a professional skilled in treating BPDers, she will remain incapable of trusting you or any other man. Hence, although she likely was sincere in saying she "was still learning to trust," you should not believe it. It is a false hope handed out by a young woman who is incapable of trusting anyone until she first learns how to trust herself.

She seemed to have this emotional connection with this guy friend of hers. She feels the need to see him and talk to him about how she's feeling, which normally involved me.

As I noted earlier, you likely are describing triangulation. A good explanation of it is provided at Out of the FOG - Triangulation.

She was confused and angry sometimes for no reasons. There was a moment after one of our arguments that she said she was sorry because she didn't understand why she was like that. She rarely took responsibility for her part in issues.

A BPDer has such a fragile ego that, to the extent she has any sense of who she is at all, it is the false self image of always being "The Victim." A BPDer therefore maintains a death grip on that false self image and will look for frequent "validation" that it is indeed true. It therefore is not surprising that she will tolerate a R with you only as long as you provide this validation. And there are only two ways to do it.

 

One is that you play the role of being "The Savior," a role you played at the very beginning until her infatuation started to evaporate. The implication of your trying to "save" her, of course, is that she must be "The Victim" who is in need of saving. The other way to validating her false self image is to play the role of being "The Perpetrator," which is essentially what you did after her infatuation evaporated. That is, you were blamed for every misfortune that befell her.

 

As to the moment where "she said she was sorry," BPDers will occasionally have "moments of clarity" where they will acknowledge having something wrong with them and -- instead of directing their anger outward onto the partner -- will turn it inward onto themselves. For high functioning BPDers, however, it is quite rare. My exW, for example, had perhaps five such moments during our 15 year marriage. Each moment lasted several hours and had absolutely no lasting effect whatsoever.

When she wouldn't get it the first time or second time, she would get slightly aggressive or angry and blame it on me for being a bad teacher.

Like I said, if she is a BPDer, your days as "The Savior" quickly become farther and farther apart. Most of the time, then, you will be relegated to being "The Perpetrator" (or, in this particular example, "Bad Teacher").

When I wanted to spend more time with her, she would ask for space and when I didn't, she'll always ask to spend more time with me.

With a BPDer, you are always in a lose-lose situation. You lose no matter what choice you make as long as you remain in the R. If you move close to support her and provide a sense of direction, she will feel suffocated by the intimacy and thus will start an argument to push you away. Yet, as you move back to give her space, you will start triggering her great fear of abandonment.

 

Importantly, this dilemma is unavoidable. It occurs because a BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum. Sadly, there is no midpoint position where you can safely stand and avoid triggering both fears. That Goldilocks position simply does not exist. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years looking for it.

She has said that she was 'happy' in our relationship many times but while breaking up with me, she said that she was 'unhappy'.

It is common for a BPDer to frequently "rewrite history." One reason is that a BPDer's feelings often are so intense that, to her, those feelings constitute reality because they MUST be true. Another reason is that a BPDer relies heavily on black-white thinking, wherein she will allow her conscious mind to be in touch with only one set of feelings toward you at a time. I describe both of those behaviors in more detail in my post at Crazy I think but I love her anyway.

[salparadise]

So, when I was in the relationship, I wasn't looking at things objectively and must have missed a lot of the warning signs.

Well, not trying to be insensitive, but you either missed or ignored ALL of the warning signs, and there were many. People with a healthy attachment style will usually take the first exit in response to any of those behaviors, and certainly upon seeing the first big splitting episode.

 

Even after the relationship ended––and need I point out that you weren't the one who ended it––you're thinking about what you did wrong that contributed to the breakup, how you could be more appeasing, and expressing hope of getting back with her. So please realize, for some reason you are willing to jump head first into this meat grinder, then put your little pieces back to gather and do it all over again! Why? Why do you not have the expectation and insistence that being loved for who you are, fully reciprocal and drama free, is the baseline for being in a relationship?

 

I'm not in therapy at the moment; is there an alternate to therapy? May you guys direct me through this so that I can understand better?

No––not really. What is the reason that you're resistant rather than finding that possibility compelling? The best direction I can give is telling you to pick up the phone and schedule an appointment––just do it.

 

On the top of my mind, there were a few things that caught my attention:

- In our first month of dating, the first mention of the though of LTR triggered thoughts about her ex that cheated on her and then broke up with her. She was so upset that she didn't talk to me that night, despite me desperately trying to reach her;

- During her teenage years, she had low self-esteem, and was suicidal and cut herself. Her mother had depression and wasn't very supportive. Her father wasn't always there;

- She spoke about her past as if those closest to her abandoned her, her family, friends and past boyfriends. She said that her ex-boyfriends all did something wrong;

- Whenever I could talk about any issue, she would flip the switch on me and then get angry, essentially defending herself and pushing me away. It would always be intense;

- When we got too close a few times, she would get really anxious and have panic attacks. She said she was still learning to trust me. During these moments, she would cry and sometimes attack me, by saying things like "you wanted to go this fast, but I didn't", etc.;

- During all of our arguments, she would keep saying "you just don't understand"

- I would be teaching her how to do something, like a new sport etc., and when she wouldn't get it the first time or second time, she would get slightly aggressive or angry and blame it on me for being a bad teacher;

- She seemed to have this emotional connection with this guy friend of hers. She feels the need to see him and talk to him about how she's feeling, which normally involved me;

- She was confused and angry sometimes for no reasons. There was a moment after one of our arguments that she said she was sorry because she didn't understand why she was like that;

- She rarely took responsibility for her part in issues or try to understand my perspective and compromise;

- She was often confused between wanting to spend more time with me and wanting more space away; when I wanted to spend more time with her, she would ask for space and when I didn't, she'll always ask to spend more time with me. It'll end up with us spending a lot of time together;

- She has said that she was 'happy' in our relationship many times but while breaking up with me, she said that she was 'unhappy'.

 

Here is the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria. See any parallels? Five of the nine are needed for a diagnosis.

 

• Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).
  
• A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called "splitting."
  
• Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
  
• Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).
  
• Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
  
• Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
  
• Chronic feelings of emptiness.
  
• Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
  
• Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.
  

[counterman]

Thanks for your posts, Downtown and Sal

 

I understand, I missed all of the warning signs or didn't treat them as seriously as I should've. I attributed most of those incidents were due to her previous relationships, until I learnt of other aspects of her life, such as her childhood and her teenage years. Furthermore, I did have the notion of reconciliation, however, that is far removed from my mind now. I won't be going back into that drama. I've been watching videos of people recounting their stories of being in a relationship with someone who has BDP; every day is a battle. As for therapy, what's really putting me off is the cost. Though, if it the best option, I will consider it. Why didn't I exit after the first sign of these behaviours? Probably playing the role of The Saviour -- but it'll be something I have to explore. I haven't witnessed anything like this before, so it was all new to me. I didn't even know about BDP. Really eye-opening

 

I would say I am an excessive caregiver. I like feeling needed, and at times, I felt under-appreciated in the relationship.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if she did describe me as abusive as she described her ex. I would guess that staying NC with her would justify in her mind that I am abandoning her.

 

I became The Perpetrator on several occasions, especially when issues were raised in a calm manner by me and I would be blamed for causing anxiety and panic.

 

As for triangulation, is it intentional or unintentional? What would be considered a healthy friendship with this guy friend? I am more curious, so that I can avoid this sought of situation in the future.

 

In saying that, I don't think she is aware that she may have BPD, which explains why she is confused about her behaviour sometimes and had rare moments where she would say she didn't understand what was going on. How would someone with BPD get help or even begin to look for help if they don't know what they have?

 

I would say that she displays at least 4 of the 9 criteria... she definitely displays BDP behaviour.

[Downtown]

I would say I am an excessive caregiver. I like feeling needed.

CM, having a desire to "feel needed" is normal and healthy. That desire becomes dysfunctional only when it is so strong that you keep helping people even when it is to your great detriment, as occurs when you are tolerating an abusive, toxic relationship. When this happens, it means that your personal boundaries are far too low and you are not taking care of your own needs.

As for triangulation, is it intentional or unintentional?

With BPDers, it usually is both. To the extent a BPDer is trying to control you to prevent abandonment, the use of triangulation likely is intentional. To the extent the triangulation is created by the BPDer's subconscious (along with the projections), it likely unintentional.

What would be considered a healthy friendship with this guy friend?

At a minimum, CM, it would require that she stop trying to play you off against each other, i.e., stop portraying herself as a prize that the two of you are supposed to fight over while she sometimes favors you and then sometimes favors him. That is, at the very least, she should stop the triangulation.

In saying that, I don't think she is aware that she may have BPD.

Unlike narcissists and sociopaths, BPDers generally have a vague awareness that something is wrong with them and that they feel empty inside or feel fake. It nonetheless is very unusual for a BPDer to have sufficient self awareness to recognize that she has BPD. One reason is that a BPDer is filled with so much self loathing and shame that the last thing she wants to find is one more item to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. Because the shame is very painful when she is in touch with it, her subconscious mind protects her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality by projecting the hurtful thoughts and feelings onto her partner -- thereby externalizing them, getting them out of her body. In this way, the partner is used as a trashcan in which to dispose of the dirty linen. But most of this is done subconsciously, as I understand it.

How would someone with BPD get help or even begin to look for help if they don't know what they have?

Generally, they don't look for help. The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, which means they interact very well with strangers, casual friends, and business associates -- i.e., with folks who are not emotionally close to them. It is unusual for a HF BPDer to believe she has BPD even when a professional diagnoses her and tells her. The BPDers who are more receptive to the news are the very low functioning BPDers who are in such great pain that it is a relief for them to find out what it is that torments them so. Yet, even for those few who are sufficiently self aware to recognize the problem, the vast majority of them refuse to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. They lack the ego strength necessary to being willing to work hard for several years in weekly therapy.

I would say that she displays at least 4 of the 9 criteria... she definitely displays BDP behaviour.

If you are comfortable telling us, which four traits seem to apply strongly to her? If you have time, CM, it also could be insightful to know which of the 18 warning signs seem to strong apply. That list appears in my post at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/breaks-breaking-up/419416-ran-into-my-ex-bar-8-months-later-interesting-story#post5164075.

[counterman]

I agree, I think my desire to feel needed started to become dysfunctional. Now that I'm out of the relationship, looking back, it'll explain why I felt under-appreciated. My personal boundaries did slip and I wasn't taking care of my own needs. Though, at the time, when I was in the relationship, it was like I was in a habit. A bad habit.

 

With the triangulation, what I've noticed was that there were times when we would argue, she would push me away, go to him to vent and when I would try to contact her, she would say she was with this guy. It was never one of her other girl friends. It was always with him. So, I spoke to her about this, and said that if we were to be a in a relationship, we should be able to talk to each other about our issues and calmly discuss them. She reluctantly agreed and stopped going to him to talk about our issues. However, this didn't last very long, and I realise she would then continue to vent about me to him, and I suspect she wasn't telling me about it because she knew it would upset me. Furthermore, it turned into a case of saying that I was "controlling". She felt she didn't have any friends. I thought it was weird how she didn't approach her close girl friends.

 

Truth be told, her spilling her emotions to this guy friend made me very uncomfortable, especially since he had expressed his feelings for her once in the past when we first started dating (she avoided the conversation with him that she wasn't interested at all). And there were times where she would contact him while she was out with me, which would annoy me. I'm not sure if it's all intentional or not, but it certainly wasn't healthy in my eyes and it crossed many of my boundaries. I'm not sure if this triangulation was intentional or not but there was one night where I called her out on it, and she was frantically crying saying sorry and then proceed to push me away.

 

She had also kept in contact with a guy, whom she hadn't seen for a while because he lives further away, who she use to talk to about her feelings and her life, especially during her teenage years when she had suicidal thoughts. She would always go to him to talk about her problems. When she was older though, in her late teens, he started developing feelings for her but she wasn't interested in him. So every time she got into a relationship, he would get mad. Every time she would have problems in that relationship, she would try not to talk to him... but eventually when the relationship failed, he would still be there for her to talk to, though they'll never meet. I didn't know the extent of this relationship until one night and I confronted her about it and she told me that this guy had problems with her dating me, saying it was hard for him to watch her date another guy again. What I found weird was when I confronted her about this, she reacted really angrily and in a quick flurry of actions, she unfriended him on Facebook. She told me she never had feelings for this guy but from that point on, I was very suspicious. Why would this guy hang around this long through all these boyfriends when she wasn't interested in him? Something didn't seem right. And, unfriending him on Facebook meant nothing. She couldn't easily add him back.

 

I figured that she had me now for emotional support and he would be put on the back burner. I wouldn't be surprised if she's talking to him about me right now. It's a sick, vicious cycle. She gets into a relationship, that guy gets angry, she stops talking to him, relationship fails, she talks to that guy again. I would question the intentions of this guy too; he definitely has ulterior motives.

 

With her, what I found was that when speaking about past relationships, it was always her ex-boyfriends fault. They always did something to her. She never took any responsibility in matters or admitted to any mistakes. Whenever she would retell a story, she would hate my "judgement" on it, as though she didn't want to face any criticism or, as you say, find one more item to add on the list of things she hates about herself. She rarely admits to any fault or flaws on her part. She projected a lot of feelings and thoughts onto me. Even if I was perfect in whatever sense, there would still be something wrong.

 

She's definitely high functioning, and interacts well with colleagues, friends, family (whom she's not very close to). When we would have arguments and she would be in a state of stress, she would say that she's not normally like this and has never had this intensity of arguments with anyone. However, she's comparing me (someone whom she was emotionally close to) to acquaintances (people whom she was NOT emotionally close to). No surprise that she attributed the cause of all this stress to me, even though I was merely calmly raising an issue or just talking. Having more of an understanding of her now makes me feel a little sorry for her.

 

I would say she displays:

- Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5);

- A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called "splitting."

- Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

- Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. --- though this was during teenage years. No signs whatsoever when I was with her

- Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

- Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).

 

I cannot diagnose her but I would say she definitely displays at least some of those I mentioned above.

 

As for the 18 behaviours:

- Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor comment or infraction -> when it came to describing herself in the relationship as "happy" or "unhappy"

- Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"

- Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;

- Low self esteem;

- Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;

- Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;

- Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;

- Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;

-Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people ---- when she was with this close guy friend of hers, she was less my girlfriend and more of his friend. She had this weird dynamic with him, like she was a different person. It made me uncomfortable.

- Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.

 

I cannot say she demonstrates 100% of those behaviours but definitely some of them or similar behaviour. I think she is really confused sometimes.

 

After I started NC with her, she had expectation for me to still be there for her when she needed me. She's told me things she's never told anyone before and had shared herself emotionally with me. I would always be the one she would talk to about anything. So when we were breaking up and I told her that I wasn't going to be contacting her, she reacted with anger. Though I don't think she thought I meant it because she was trying to contact me in times of need.

 

I suspected she wanted to keep me on the back burner, in case a future relationship failed. She would have come to me for emotional support. I would say she's reconnecting with the weird 'friend' of hers at the moment, because I'm no longer there.

 

It's more messed up than I thought

[Downtown]

I cannot diagnose her but I would say she definitely displays at least some of [the six traits] I mentioned above.

CM, based on how you've described her, I suspected that you would recognize more than four traits when you thought about it more.

I cannot say she demonstrates 100% of those behaviours but definitely some of them or similar behaviour.

Yes, you would have to be a professional to determine whether her BPD traits are so strong as to meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for having full-blown BPD. Simply spotting the warning signs, however, is not difficult. There is nothing subtle about signs such as inability to trust, lack of impulse control, and rapid flips between loving you and devaluing you.

[counterman]

Thanks Downtown

 

It's disappoint though, to think that the moments of happiness that we did have could be rewritten by her in her head and I could be made to be seen as abusive.

 

There were a lot of signs which I attributed to her past relationships. Little did I know. Now, I have a better understanding and hope to further my understand.

 

I do feel sorry for her. She's in this vicious cycle at the moment and she is confused. Is there any point in me talking to her about BDP and encouraging her to seek therapy?