Does society want to blame women?

[ladydesigner]

Let's not forget that people kill each other over affairs. Or even kill themselves. People that were normally adjusted persons before. Perhaps in an act of rage, depression, after a night of hard drinking or drugs to numb the pain. Betrayed persons are often hospitalized from the shock, and have to go anti-anxiety, anti-depression or even anti-psychotic drugs. For years. Many suffer from PTSD symptoms. Many are financially handicapped through divorce, or lose their jobs because they can't concentrate. Many triggers last for years, causing problems in future relationships. Those with children lose their children half the time or more. Children have behavioral and educational problems as a result, or often distant themselves from one of the parents. They may be forced to live or spend time with someone they do not like (the AP). Some stop speaking to the the wayward parent as a result of the betrayal (not only of the BS, but of the family).

 

If you no longer want to be with your partner, communicate, seek counseling or divorce. Mature adults often fail to do this and get swept up in affairs. Many people suffer as a result.

 

It's a preachy rant, but let's try to put things in perspective. Yes, the woman who is still sending "you should kill yourself texts" is mental. She needs professional help. But she endured a lot of pain, more than any AP of WS can understand. It's not just hate, it's seething rage people that person felt. The desire for vengeance, to make the other hurt like you have been hurt. And none of that hurt would've existed had an A not occurred.

 

Thank you for this post! I am a fMOW and a BS and I have PTSD and I tried to commit suicide because I was in false r. I blamed and hated the MOW for a long time. I feel indifference now. I think she got bullsh*tted by one of the biggest bullsh*tters around, my WH. But I must say both are to blame. She did know what she was going into and verbally rubbed it in my face many times. MOW had an agenda against me, she wanted my WH and my M. The MOW in our case never "owned her sh*t," but it is not something everyone can do. It takes a strong person to know their fears and weaknesses and face them.

[AlwaysGrowing]

TC:

 

A BS has a more complex experience with their WS. Times of love, happiness, children possibly, vacations, shared tears, comforting, nurturing. The affair is one factor in a whole that is diverse.

 

The only experience (usually), that a BS has/had with the AP is negative. An AP, tried/did to assume the BS role in the WS life. A BS, has only this experience to draw from. It was how the AP decided to enter the BS life. As an adversary/at odds.

 

For most people, regardless of what the circumstance is, would never engage/think well of, of anyone who entered their life so violently/aggressively. There is no need to see that person beyond what they have already chosen to show. Most, would probably hope to never run across them again.

 

Like others have said, a WS is sometimes given the opportunity to make amends, show that they have changed, apologize, etc. Because of their past actions in the relationship, a BS has more to look at, judge.

[cocorico]

I'm sorry if this is in any way offensive to anyone; I am honestly not trying to be callous or harsh. But there is a nagging "something" that bothers me.

 

Possibly I am not owning my sh*t, although my IC does not feel this is the case. However, I am highly, seriously agitated at the way OW are villified in As. IMO, they are demonized far more than the "doofous" WHs (unless the WH leaves--then he obtains equal villain status). Years after reconciliation, OW are still blamed and hated. Many, many BSs use the "she knew he was married" argument to blame the OW. Forever.

 

But something about the way the WH is eventually loved and the OW, whoever she was, is always hated makes me very, very angry. How is that final result in any way logical? Hmmm . . .

 

Here's the harsh part--I feel like a sexual assault victim, date rape. I was stupid. I believed him. I fell for his charm and my deep, deep love for him (old bf). And then I was raped. Emotionally raped.

 

Yes, I was stupid. And I paid the price. But how was my crime of stupidity worse than his crime of knowingly harming two women, one he supposedly loved but chose to forget and one who he "pretended" to love? And why do I feel like the women of society are happy blaming and hating other women for "sexual misconduct" while the men of society simply watch and allow it?

 

Why do I feel like a stupid, naive rape victim in all this, even 19 months after I ended the A? Why does everyone feel so comfortable saying we should have known better, even though we were so badly hurt?

 

I keep thinking of Kobe's accuser.

"Why did she go to his room?"

"She knew what was going to happen?"

"She deserved it."

 

Tell me, is stupid a worse crime than selfishly evil? Is that why OW are never forgiven but BHs are?

 

I don't live in America, so have not experienced the kind of "vilification" you and others describe, although I do agree that women (whatever their role in an A) tend to be held to a different standard than men.

 

A BW is expected to forgive the OW, while a BH is expected to beat up the OM.

 

A WW is regarded as unnatural, the spawn of satan, while a WH is just being a man.

 

An OW is a traitor to the "sisterhood", while an OM is just being a man.

 

Women are largely seen as nurturing, men as sexual. Women who step outside that stereotype are feared and must be controlled; likewise men who step outside their stereotype are belittled and deemed insufficiently virile.

 

Since "society" is us - why do we allow this?

[Snowflower]

I don't live in America, so have not experienced the kind of "vilification" you and others describe, although I do agree that women (whatever their role in an A) tend to be held to a different standard than men.

 

A BW is expected to forgive the OW, while a BH is expected to beat up the OM.

 

A WW is regarded as unnatural, the spawn of satan, while a WH is just being a man.

 

An OW is a traitor to the "sisterhood", while an OM is just being a man.

 

Women are largely seen as nurturing, men as sexual. Women who step outside that stereotype are feared and must be controlled; likewise men who step outside their stereotype are belittled and deemed insufficiently virile.

 

Since "society" is us - why do we allow this?

 

This post brings up good points.

 

I do agree that cheating women are judged much more harshly than men but men are still judged. I don't think most men who cheat on their wives are looked at as "guys will be guys." Maybe at one time, yes, but that notion is pretty outdated.

 

I think women are judged more harshly because they are the "keepers of the keys" regarding sexuality within a relationship. So, when a woman becomes physical with a MM or gives the keys to another man besides her husband, she is judged harshly (more harshly)more than a man.

 

Some of those old societal norms die hard.

 

Some of the other points you mention, coco, are valid too. The BW is expected forgive because women "should be" forgiving and accommodating. The BH should beat up the OM. BH's are often viewed as weak for taking back their cheating wives, ad nauseum.

 

Good post, coco!

[Anne Boleyn]

Let's not forget that people kill each other over affairs. Or even kill themselves. People that were normally adjusted persons before. Perhaps in an act of rage, depression, after a night of hard drinking or drugs to numb the pain. Betrayed persons are often hospitalized from the shock, and have to go anti-anxiety, anti-depression or even anti-psychotic drugs. For years. Many suffer from PTSD symptoms. Many are financially handicapped through divorce, or lose their jobs because they can't concentrate. Many triggers last for years, causing problems in future relationships. Those with children lose their children half the time or more. Children have behavioral and educational problems as a result, or often distant themselves from one of the parents. They may be forced to live or spend time with someone they do not like (the AP). Some stop speaking to the the wayward parent as a result of the betrayal (not only of the BS, but of the family).

 

If you no longer want to be with your partner, communicate, seek counseling or divorce. Mature adults often fail to do this and get swept up in affairs. Many people suffer as a result.

 

But many of those things can happen to the OW as well, the spouse isn't unique in that. The boards here are testimony to that.

 

I don't expect his ex wife, or anybody, to find out about an affair and be OK. I don't expect her to like me or ever want to like me, that's totally OK. I don't expect her friends to like me, I don't expect her family to like me, heck, I don't expect his family to like me. All of this is fine. And yes, I expect yelling, angry texts, angry phone calls, letters, screaming during confrontations, all of that. Maybe even a slap or thrown punch or two. Is it OK? No, but I expect it and I'd say that it wasn't undeserving.

 

Then there's some of it... The shady things that you know are shady, but they're not really latent in their inappropriateness, or maybe they are, but they're still ignorable... So you just kind of ignore them, despite their weirdness. Like having the key to your house go missing of your husband's key ring and coming home to find all your underwear missing. And him going to her apartment to get his things and her wearing nothing but said missing underwear. Or a couple years later, when the divorce is over and done, and you're planning a vacation halfway across the country together to find out that she also is planning a vacation to the same location. During the same dates. While staying at the same resort. In the same building as said resort. And is upset that she misunderstood what flight we were flying because she'd intended on booking the same flight because she's too scared to fly alone and she didn't think we'd notice her on the plane. Or the bus to the resort. Or having to explain to people even 5-6 years on that they're not actually married anymore despite her introducing herself as "Mrs. Boleyn, Mr. Boleyn's wife."

 

Then there's the stuff that it's just really not all that forgivable, despite the affair or how it affected her. Like seeing him and I in a car, driving through a parking lot, and ramming us with her car. Repeatedly. Years after the divorce. And saying she aimed for the back of the car because she hoped it'd kill our infant. And saying this in front of me and her children, who love their sibling. Or the texts that I should kill myself, again, maybe not from her, but certainly from someone she knows, and her saying as a response that "maybe she should." Or having the parents of her 17 year old boyfriend come to our door to tell us to get her to leave their son alone or they'd press charges. Or breaking into our house to steal our child's bedding and toys because "if they were bought with her husband's money they're as much hers as his." 2 years after the divorce.

 

That's where you kind of wander from "I get this affair hurt you and it's OK to act accordingly because I know we did a bad thing" to "this is not OK, no matter what." And that's where my tolerance for "I can forgive this stuff because I know I caused it" changes to "I can't get past this behavior and I don't think I have to because you did some really bad things for a really, really long time."

 

Now, some of this was the affair, some of this was behavior that came up in the past during the marriage that I didn't know the extent of until years later, though she admitted to me that she had done previously to "keep him."

 

I think that I'm fair in saying that the behavior was severe enough and occurred long enough outside of a scope of when they were married that I can say "I'm not over this and I don't forgive you." Or if not, it certainly can go to explaining the base question of "why do you care what she thinks about you?" with a very legitimate "I really don't care what she thinks of me."

 

It's a preachy rant, but let's try to put things in perspective. Yes, the woman who is still sending "you should kill yourself texts" is mental. She needs professional help. But she endured a lot of pain, more than any AP of WS can understand. It's not just hate, it's seething rage people that person felt. The desire for vengeance, to make the other hurt like you have been hurt. And none of that hurt would've existed had an A not occurred.

 

Again, I understand the hurt and pain and this isn't a case of "I had an affair with your husband, but you called me a b-word, so I hate you" it's a case of a woman who was physically abusive to begin with carrying that out to a degree that's excessive. The behavior would have existed regardless of the affair... As in, she already was abusive to her husband, a relationship with a boyfriend ended after she started stalking his ex (something she did to my husband as well)... But without the affair, I wouldn't have been the focal point of it. And I have no doubt the affair exaggerated behaviors she was prone to as it was.

 

But, enough of this. I don't want to say negative things about her or make it seem like I'm trashing her. I'm truly not. I realize a combination of factors, some of which I contributed to, provoked her to the behaviors she displayed. However, I just want to illustrate that there are times where just because you're the OW doesn't mean that everything hurled your way is something you should tolerate or can be explained away by saying she's a scorned wife.

[AlwaysGrowing]

AnneB,

 

You are absolutely correct. The BS reactions in your case are not in the realm of expected reactions/responses in the slightest.

 

I can see where one might feel that the justice scale has been more than levelled.

 

I hope this is in the past, and that all of you have found a way to move forward.

[krazikat]

There's apparently some "woman code" where, as a woman, we know not to do anything that could ever hurt another woman. As women, we should know better than to hurt one of "our own." I don't know of this code, but I only hear of it after somebody has broken it, and almost 100% of the time, that code violation is related to a man. Hitting on a guy a friend is interested, dating ex-boyfriends, affairs, etc etc.

 

And I think it's easier for a scorned woman to lash out on the other woman. It's part of how they deal with the questions that come up... Is she prettier/thinner/better than me, etc.

 

Then there's that women take longer to forgive in some cases, and that with a scorned woman comes the woman's "I'm scorned for you" friends, and they can be just as bad as the scorned woman, and they can fuel that scorned woman's fire for quite a looooooong time.

 

Finally, there's if there is reconcilliation on the horizon. If there is, she's apt to forgive him more. And if he's been feeding her the "she lead me to it, I didn't want to" lines, now she's angry on behalf of her victimized husband.

 

There's just so much that goes into why a woman is more reviled for her affair than the man is for that same affair.

 

 

 

Logic goes out the window in something like an affair, which from it's onset is typically dominated by raw and pure emotion.

 

 

 

Rightly or wrongly, the man who breaks his wife's heart has the woman who lead him to do it to blame. The woman who gets her heartbroken by the man should have known it was inevitable. He's married, so you get what you deserve. If he lies to his wife, he's broken a vow, if he's lied to you, it's your fault for believing it. Doesn't matter if he made the same promises to you he made to her.

 

 

 

Because the husband has a chance to earn forgiveness by making it work with his wife. The OW doesn't.

 

Right now, even though it's been over 5 years since the affair and 4 years since he left her for the final time, if he were to call up his ex wife and say "take me back, " she would. His coming back wouldn't right the wrong of the situation, I'm still the witch who stole her husband and the speed bump to their now repaired marriage.

 

It's just the way it is. For me, it's worth stressing about. I've come to realize that when it comes to affairs, the people who get it genuinely get it are the supports, the ones who don't never will understand and are OK with that.

 

It is typically women like you, unrepentant ow, who claim they have never heard of the women code. Interesting.

[lace5262]

It is typically women like you, unrepentant ow, who claim they have never heard of the women code. Interesting.

 

I've often had this thought when it comes up on this board. Interesting indeed.

[Anne Boleyn]

AnneB,

 

You are absolutely correct. The BS reactions in your case are not in the realm of expected reactions/responses in the slightest.

 

I can see where one might feel that the justice scale has been more than levelled.

 

Please be clear, I'm not speaking for everybody and I'm certainly not saying it's everybody's norm. I'm just answering in the context of the discussion we were having, related to my specific story.

 

Not playing for sympathy or trying to make her seem like a bad person, because I think really, despite all things, she's not a bad person. Just I can't forgive her for these things and, as a result, can understand how a wife wouldn't be able to forgive an OW, and how as an OW, I think that's fair and understandable.

 

I hope this is in the past, and that all of you have found a way to move forward.

 

We've all moved forward in our own ways, I think. There's occasional flareups and the persistent "who sends the weird texts" issues, but yes, life is fairly normal now.

[Fluttershy]

I owe nothing to women just because they are women. The code has nothing to do with me. I don't believe it exsists in reality. I choose to treat others with kindness regardless of gender. And my first loyalty is to friends and family not someone who has the same named body parts.

 

And I was a BW.

[Anne Boleyn]

It is typically women like you, unrepentant ow, who claim they have never heard of the women code. Interesting.

 

I've often had this thought when it comes up on this board. Interesting indeed.

 

So if there is a "woman code," who publishes it? Who maintains it? Who disseminates it? Where do we agree or sign off on it? How often is it updated? What topics does it include?

 

The point I was making is that I believe in the "woman code" as much as I believe in the "bro code." It's an imaginary and arbitrary set of ethics and morals that's riddled with gender-defining stereotypes and only pulled out when somebody feels that its been violated and they've been wronged. It's an antiquated idea that implies being the same gender as every second person in the world means we have some sort of universal understanding, like a gang made up of people with the same reproductive organs. That because your organs are the same as my organs that we have automatic respect and unity.

 

Sorry, don't buy it. But I've never, ever bought into the pack mentality that X or Y group are "my people" and I go about acting about them like I would a sorority sister and we have this secret code to always look out for each other.

 

So we can talk about how "interesting" it is with these ominous undertones, but the reality, it doesn't exist. To think that nobody should or will have an affair because of girl code... That's Disney Channel, high school thinking.

[snappytomcat]

I do kind of think that when you have sex and an affair with someone, unless it was agreed that it was purely a sexual relationship, you "owe" them decency and compassion, even if you were cheating on your spouse to do it. It's lousy that a wayward spouse would bring someone into the marriage like that, but to me having sex isn't casual, no matter the circumstances.

sorry gonna have to disagree,she didn't have any decency or compassion towards me or my children even threatened them,she knew he was married,and yes hes at fault hes the one who had vows to me,and still cheated he didn't have anything with her except sex,period do I feel bad that she fell in love with someone who was lying to her I did,iam a very compassionate person to a fault,but after she did what she did nope don't feel bad for her at all,and im sorry to say that cause its not like me

[lilmisscantbewrong]

When it comes to how society allocates blame, how are they going to know someone was an ow/om? Unless you choose to wear a big scarlet "a" people won't know.

 

 

 

Unless your names are read publicly before a congregation.

[Owl]

Unless your names are read publicly before a congregation.

 

Which was a risk that should have been considered, since it was apparently part of the society in which the affair partners chose to live within. If that's a known possible outcome of infidelity...if someone belongs to a church that does those kinds of things...then it was a possible outcome from the beginning.

 

People kinda "sign up" for that kind of situation by choosing to engage in organizations that do that kind of thing, and then conducting themselves in a manner that causes it to happen.

[woinlove]

So if there is a "woman code," who publishes it? Who maintains it? Who disseminates it? Where do we agree or sign off on it? How often is it updated? What topics does it include?

 

The point I was making is that I believe in the "woman code" as much as I believe in the "bro code." It's an imaginary and arbitrary set of ethics and morals that's riddled with gender-defining stereotypes and only pulled out when somebody feels that its been violated and they've been wronged. It's an antiquated idea that implies being the same gender as every second person in the world means we have some sort of universal understanding, like a gang made up of people with the same reproductive organs. That because your organs are the same as my organs that we have automatic respect and unity.

 

Sorry, don't buy it. But I've never, ever bought into the pack mentality that X or Y group are "my people" and I go about acting about them like I would a sorority sister and we have this secret code to always look out for each other.

 

So we can talk about how "interesting" it is with these ominous undertones, but the reality, it doesn't exist. To think that nobody should or will have an affair because of girl code... That's Disney Channel, high school thinking.

 

It's just the golden rule, treat others as you'd like to be treated, applied to approximately half the human race. Perhaps a bit easier to keep the golden rule in mind with those we identify with the easiest, but really, most people have it in them to want to, to strive to, to try to treat others as they'd like to be treated. When we fail, we can learn and try to do better now and in the future.

 

A few people shun the golden rule and prefer a motto of each one out for themselves, but I haven't observed that motto coexisting with a lot of happiness.

[krazikat]

So if there is a "woman code," who publishes it? Who maintains it? Who disseminates it? Where do we agree or sign off on it? How often is it updated? What topics does it include?

 

The point I was making is that I believe in the "woman code" as much as I believe in the "bro code." It's an imaginary and arbitrary set of ethics and morals that's riddled with gender-defining stereotypes and only pulled out when somebody feels that its been violated and they've been wronged. It's an antiquated idea that implies being the same gender as every second person in the world means we have some sort of universal understanding, like a gang made up of people with the same reproductive organs. That because your organs are the same as my organs that we have automatic respect and unity.

 

Sorry, don't buy it. But I've never, ever bought into the pack mentality that X or Y group are "my people" and I go about acting about them like I would a sorority sister and we have this secret code to always look out for each other.

 

So we can talk about how "interesting" it is with these ominous undertones, but the reality, it doesn't exist. To think that nobody should or will have an affair because of girl code... That's Disney Channel, high school thinking.

 

It is quite common knowledge, not specific to affairs. Even in the business world, where women often backstab each other for coveted positions primarily held by men....the struggled women have faced with equality through out history, etc. this goes back centuries, when women had to count on each other, have each others back. The sisterhood. You have never heard of the sisterhood?

[Fluttershy]

It is quite common knowledge, not specific to affairs. Even in the business world, where women often backstab each other for coveted positions primarily held by men....the struggled women have faced with equality through out history, etc. this goes back centuries, when women had to count on each other, have each others back. The sisterhood. You have never heard of the sisterhood?

I've heard of it but i think in day to day life it is bulsht(for me) Women gatheing ro get the vote was like minded individuals fighting for their rights. No different then LBTG gathering to fight for their rights. But day to day life? Nope, i don't hae the vajayjay in a pedastal. No one owes me anything just because I am woman nor do i owe anyone else.

[krazikat]

I've heard of it but i think in day to day life it is bulsht(for me) Women gatheing ro get the vote was like minded individuals fighting for their rights. No different then LBTG gathering to fight for their rights. But day to day life? Nope, i don't hae the vajayjay in a pedastal. No one owes me anything just because I am woman nor do i owe anyone else.

 

It.is not about owing.someone something, it is about being supportive and having each others backs. We still as women struggle with equality...equal pay, equal opportunity at employment to receive same promotions as men, the image of women, we still struggle...in some countries women are still flat out treated as inferior. Have to be covered. Get stoned and raped and brutalized.

 

There is still a need for this golden rule, this sisterhood....

[krazikat]

It.is not about owing.someone something, it is about being supportive and having each others backs. We still as women struggle with equality...equal pay, equal opportunity at employment to receive same promotions as men, the image of women, we still struggle...in some countries women are still flat out treated as inferior. Have to be covered. Get stoned and raped and brutalized.

 

There is still a need for this golden rule, this sisterhood....

 

And also about building each other up, not tearing each other down by competing and back stabbing each other....

[lilmisscantbewrong]

Which was a risk that should have been considered, since it was apparently part of the society in which the affair partners chose to live within. If that's a known possible outcome of infidelity...if someone belongs to a church that does those kinds of things...then it was a possible outcome from the beginning.

 

People kinda "sign up" for that kind of situation by choosing to engage in organizations that do that kind of thing, and then conducting themselves in a manner that causes it to happen.

 

 

 

No, it was not a known possibility (although I'm not sure anyone considers that during an affair). These were two rogue pastors within a mainstream denomination that took matters into their own hands - and also totally supported the OM's family and kicked mine to the curb because I was the jezebel. No, sorry, this is not how the "church" handles things. Actually the new pastor apologized recently to my husband on behalf of the church because he said "the xxxxchurch does not handle things like that". He seems to be a good man, but the damage was already done.

 

 

And believe me when I say it does not relieve me of responsibility. I am only pointing this out to the OP's topic that, yes, the woman is definitely blamed more - at least in my case.

[Fluttershy]

And also about building each other up, not tearing each other down by competing and back stabbing each other....

 

But for me that has nothing to do with "sisterhood" "girl code" but are yo be applied to everyone regardless of age race or gender. Te OW didn't reak some imaginary code against me based on my gender. She broke a moral code we dont share and because of that she is not someone i would be friends with. If aj OW owns their part, is sorry for it or regrets it I would be friends with them... Just maybe not MY OW, lol.

[sweet_pea]

How does an AP determine that they are being blamed more than the WS? How does an AP determine that they are being punished more? Obviously, this is different for everyone but I'm just curious to know how individuals define things…

[krazikat]

But for me that has nothing to do with "sisterhood" "girl code" but are yo be applied to everyone regardless of age race or gender. Te OW didn't reak some imaginary code against me based on my gender. She broke a moral code we dont share and because of that she is not someone i would be friends with. If aj OW owns their part, is sorry for it or regrets it I would be friends with them... Just maybe not MY OW, lol.

 

We can just agree to disagree on this point. I do believe in the girl code. There are, based upon gender, different experiences. Women still have the disadvantage in many ways...it is what it is.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I am not sure about a sisterhood code being anything that I ever heard of.

 

However, when I am out...and I see a young mother having a difficult time in the store with her young children, I always make it a point..to tell her that I remember how hard it was when my kids were young or to tell a young mother that her children are very well behaved in the store. I remember how it made me feel when older women would give me words of understanding or encouragement when I was at that stage in my life.

 

Do unto others...I have heard of...and try to live by. That little nugget..if applied would make the world a much better place to live.

[krazikat]

I am not sure about a sisterhood code being anything that I ever heard of.

 

However, when I am out...and I see a young mother having a difficult time in the store with her young children, I always make it a point..to tell her that I remember how hard it was when my kids were young or to tell a young mother that her children are very well behaved in the store. I remember how it made me feel when older women would give me words of understanding or encouragement when I was at that stage in my life.

 

Do unto others...I have heard of...and try to live by. That little nugget..if applied would make the world a much better place to live.

 

Definitely a much better place!

 

I am surprised about women not hearing of this...I think I will start a thread about that....now where to put it???