Tell Me I'm Not Kidding Myself About Him: Do MM Really Love Their Wives?

January 12, 2005

Moderator's Note: Discussion split from this thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t53403/

Originally posted by Moose
I think it's because the OM/OW convince themselves that their MM/MW is totally unhappy and lacking in their marriages, even though I would think 9 times out of 10 that it is pure BS. But some people are niave and don't have a clue. They believe that when their MM/MW goes home to their spouses and families, that the MM/MW, are nothing but non feeling zombies walking around with blank stares and non moving faces.......when in reality, they act as though everything in hunky dorey and continue on abusing other men and women.

But here's the thing---can a marriage REALLY be good if a guy is cheating? I mean, it could look fine---they could be nice to each other, have fun together and sleep together---but it still can't be a good marriage because this is a relationship where trust is gone and he's mostl likely deceiving her.

The marriage might still be meeting most of his needs---so in effect, it's not a bad marriage for him. But it still is (in reality) a bad marriage.

I'm not at all saying that this is reason to get involved with a MM. There are no good reasons to. Most of us who have didn't plan on it.

But I don't think that ANY cheater can truely have a good marriage---at least not by my definition of what a good marriage is.

January 12, 2005

I agree......how good can the relationship be if he's out cheating on her?

bubbles

January 12, 2005

Originally posted by ConfusedInOC
No, I won't.

You're reaping what you sow right now. You might want to play it off as though God has nothing to do with it. I don't care if you are athiest or agnostic or whatever, the proof is what is happening right now.

Go find a single man...lest you wish to live the rest of your life of fallacy where you're nothing more than a MM's play toy.

I think it's ridculous for you to whine about not getting the time you feel you deserve with a MM.

The irony is laughable at best.

The punishment, just.

If the OW is reaping what she sows because that's God's way of proving that adultery is wrong, then why is it that the MM often doesn't suffer? And why is it, that the MM's wife does????

January 12, 2005

Originally posted by KissMyTiara
LOL, I know what you mean. I just looked at my calendar to check how my hormones are doing, and whattdya know...it's crying time. Knowing that makes me feel just a little bit more sane.

LOL---same here. Actually I can usually tell just by the fact that I start getting clumsy as well.

As for stuff he could be doing---going with the wife and kids shopping, to the movies, attending school functions, working on a hobby, doing work from the office, playing with the kids, etc....

I know how it is---liking someone who's married and I'm not going to tell you to stop but I still wish a lot better for you. And you're lucky because at your age, there are a lot more single guys out there. I feel like I waited too long. Maybe that's why I thought being with a MM was ok --since there aren't many other (good) prospects out there for me.

January 12, 2005

If the OW is reaping what she sows because that's God's way of proving that adultery is wrong, then why is it that the MM often doesn't suffer? And why is it, that the MM's wife does????

Hmmm, I don't know if the OW's suffering is God's way of proving adultery is wrong.....I'm sure it may have something to do with it, but when you say that the MM isn't suffering, that's where you're wrong. Comitting adultery has it's consequences. If not in this life, most certainly at the time of judgement.

People seem to think that since we can't see, or touch God that we can get away with what we want. Or at the very least, for now. But what needs to be kept in mind is that God sees all, knows all. Just because you commit an act like adultery and you get away with it from your spouse, doesn't mean you won't pay a price later on.

As for the MM's wife...... it's a shame that she has to suffer at all. But don't think for an instant that she's not deserving of it. A MM doesn't just go out and cheat for no good reason. The wives of these cheating husbands are certainly partially responsible for the husband's infidelities. Whether it be denial of sex, using sex to manipulate him, lack of communication, or plain flat out verbal, emotional, and physical abuse. They are not blameless.

KISS. Keep it simple stupid. DONT CHEAT

January 12, 2005

I'll take a stab at answering your questions, at least from my perspective.

The marriage might still be meeting most of his needs---so in effect, it's not a bad marriage for him. But it still is (in reality) a bad marriage.

I'm not at all saying that this is reason to get involved with a MM. There are no good reasons to. Most of us who have didn't plan on it.

But I don't think that ANY cheater can truely have a good marriage---at least not by my definition of what a good marriage is.

You basically don't think someone could cheat if they're in a good marriage. Why not? Cheating is inherently selfish. A person could have the world's greatest marriage at home...and still be a selfish bastard who'll do whatever they want whenever they want. Or...they can be confused (or in need of medication), and totally convincing themselves that their marriage sucks...when the truth is that it's actually good...they just don't/won't/can't see it. There are a lot of possibilities when you think of it...and a lot of those reasons have nothing to do with the marriage...or with their spouse.

If the OW is reaping what she sows because that's God's way of proving that adultery is wrong, then why is it that the MM often doesn't suffer? And why is it, that the MM's wife does????

It depends on the circumstances...if they really are being heartless and totally selfish, then they're not going to LET themselves be hurt emotionally by what they've done. They'll go right on doing what they're doing, and just let everyone else suffer.

Realize too that it's perception that causes a lot of that suffering... My wife doesn't "suffer" nearly as much as I do over what happened...she's ready for it to be "gone and forgotten". Of course she is...she's the one who CAUSED the hurt, along with the OM. She'd like to forget that she ever did something so stupid...so does almost anyone who's been in her shoes. I suffer, because I DIDN'T cause what happened to occur. And our marriage was doing pretty damn good for the most part...what happened in our case was mostly caused by her untreated depression and the typical stress you get from trying to raise 4 teenagers all in the house at the same time. But the end result is the same...she doesn't "suffer" over it because she wants to forget about it...because she caused it to happen. (And in all fairness she does suffer...when she realizes how close she came to forever destroying what we've got, when she sees how much I'm STILL hurting after all of this...etc, etc...)

January 12, 2005

Originally posted by Owl
You basically don't think someone could cheat if they're in a good marriage. Why not? Cheating is inherently selfish. A person could have the world's greatest marriage at home...and still be a selfish bastard who'll do whatever they want whenever they want. Or...they can be confused (or in need of medication), and totally convincing themselves that their marriage sucks...when the truth is that it's actually good...they just don't/won't/can't see it. There are a lot of possibilities when you think of it...and a lot of those reasons have nothing to do with the marriage...or with their spouse.

Let me ask you these questions:

Is a marriage where there is no trust and there is deception, a good marriage?

Is a marriage with someone who is selfish and only thinks of themselves, a good marriage?

January 12, 2005

Originally posted by Owl
You basically don't think someone could cheat if they're in a good marriage. Why not? Cheating is inherently selfish. A person could have the world's greatest marriage at home...and still be a selfish bastard who'll do whatever they want whenever they want. Or...they can be confused (or in need of medication), and totally convincing themselves that their marriage sucks...when the truth is that it's actually good...they just don't/won't/can't see it. There are a lot of possibilities when you think of it...and a lot of those reasons have nothing to do with the marriage...or with their spouse.

People could get bored...Hense the 'MID LIFE CRISIS'. In the past it was just men who felt this way but obviously women can experience this as well.

Just wanted to add that in, popped into my head after reading Owl's post reply.

January 12, 2005

Hmmm....so you're telling me that infidelity is not only a symptom, but the disease as well? If so, then the issue isn't the marriage...the issue is the person who cheated. THEY lied...THEY were selfish. Oh yeah...we're talking about the person that the OM/OW wants sooo badly, aren't we?

It seems to me that your questions aren't aimed at the marriage, but more reflective of the INDIVIDUAL who carried them out. You ever lie or decieve your parents?? Were there ever times when your parents didn't trust you? Ever been times when you did what YOU wanted when you knew you shouldn't? None of that means that you had a bad relationship with your parents...just indicates that you were human, and foolish at times...just like all of us are at times.

ANYONE is capable of being selfish...or of lying and deceiving. I am constantly amazed by the OM/OW here who are convinced that their MM would never lie to THEM...that what they've got is soooo much different and better than the marriage...regardless of the screaming evidence in their face that they CAN and WILL lie to someone they love to get whatever they want...to include the OM/OW.

So, is the problem the relationship....or is the problem the individual in question...the MM??

January 12, 2005

Do you think a relationship without trust is a good relationship?

January 12, 2005

I would have to honestly say...it depends on whether trust can ever be there again.

In my case...it was (and I do believe this, given the circumstances it happened under) a one time thing. She's regained a LOT of trust back since this happened. Will I ever BLINDLY trust her again? No. Will I ever BLINDLY trust ANYONE again? No. Live and learn.

Had things gone on further with her and him...it could have destroyed trust to a point where it could never have been re-built. It probably would have. But I really do believe that she LEARNED a lot from what happened...about me, about herself. I think she's LESS likely to do this again now...but had it gone differently from how it had, that wouldn't have been the case.

My relationship with my wife will recover from what happened. A lot of things happened (I will add in here...thanks to God!!) that ensured that while trust was damaged, it wasn't totally shattered beyond any repair. Now...if it happened again...

Let me ask you this...on the very first date with the MM...did you give him your housekey, credit cards, debit card and pin, etc...? No. Why not?? Because trust is built up BY HAVING a relationship. You LEARN to trust someone. And if that trust is damaged...you either learn to rebuild that trust, or you end the relationship.

But the only reason someone should NOT trust someone is if they BROKE that trust...like by having an affair. So again, it sounds to me like the affair CAUSED the bad relationship...it wasn't caused by a bad relationship.

So...no, you can't have a good relationship if you can't trust someone. So back at you...how can you trust your MM after what you've seen him do this to his wife?

January 13, 2005

Originally posted by Owl
I would have to honestly say...it depends on whether trust can ever be there again.

In my case...it was (and I do believe this, given the circumstances it happened under) a one time thing. She's regained a LOT of trust back since this happened. Will I ever BLINDLY trust her again? No. Will I ever BLINDLY trust ANYONE again? No. Live and learn.

I've never seen a case where trust was truly rebuilt.

Let me ask you this...on the very first date with the MM...did you give him your housekey, credit cards, debit card and pin, etc...? No. Why not?? Because trust is built up BY HAVING a relationship. You LEARN to trust someone. And if that trust is damaged...you either learn to rebuild that trust, or you end the relationship.

I had no reason to give him those things and he didn't ask for them, so I find it irrelevant. Had he asked for them, it would have raised alarm bells as people in our society don't normally do that. In other words, it would have been unusual behavior and any unusual behavior makes people on guard.

But the only reason someone should NOT trust someone is if they BROKE that trust...like by having an affair. So again, it sounds to me like the affair CAUSED the bad relationship...it wasn't caused by a bad relationship.

That's possible but not always the case. And even in the cases where the relationship was good to start with, once the trust is broken, it will never be the same again.

However, people who are happily married, don't find a reason to look outside the marriage for something. It usually happens when people have grown apart and aren't communicating well.

So...no, you can't have a good relationship if you can't trust someone. So back at you...how can you trust your MM after what you've seen him do this to his wife?

I didn't say I could. Why am I not sure with him? Because he's stopped himself from sleeping with me and that makes me think that he's a decent person.

However, if he stops himself due to guilt or other reasons--and not over fear of hurting his wife---then that's not too decent. It's possible he just has selfish reasons for not going further.

So there lies my dilemna---whether or not he is really a cheater.

I'd actually have an easier time if he had tried to get me into bed from the start. Because then I'd know he was a cheater and wouldn't like him. I've always known that if someone cheats on someone with you, then they'll (probably) cheat on you with someone else later.

(Believe it or not, I was cheated on by someone I was in a long relationship with and lived with. So, I do know the other side. I never (in my wildest dreams) thought I'd be in this situation.)

January 13, 2005

Stormy, I think you and I are going to have to "agree to disagree". I think that trust can be rebuilt...but it takes a LOT of effort on both parts, usually requiring a good length of time over which the wandering spouse demonstrates that change of behaviour and re-establishes the trust. Perhaps the reason you've never seen it happen is simply because you've not seen anyone willing to put enough effort into it. Talk to me a year from now and ask me how things are going with me and my wife then. We'll see how it looks from that angle.

You dodged my question on whether or not you would have given your MM your credit card, house key, whatever on the first date. I didn't ask if it had come up...I asked if you would have done it HAD it come up. The answer is no...because he hadn't BUILT up any trust with you yet. You don't normally hand a stranger on the street your purse to hold for 15 minutes while you go to the restroom do you??? No...because you don't KNOW them enough TO trust them. Trust is established over time by demonstrating behaviours that indicate the person is "trustworthy". And, while it's more difficult, trust can be rebuilt the same way. That's the ONLY way it can truly be rebuilt.

And I agree that "most" people don't go looking outside of the marriage without reason, some do. Some do simply because it's their nature, regardless of how good or bad they've got it at home. It's not the fault of the marriage...it's simply that persons own inherent personality problems

And we'll have to "agree to disagree" on the definition of cheater. Your MM, by MY definition, is a cheater. He is by society's overall definition as well...he is currently married to someone else, but sleeping with YOU. There is nothing honest in that relationship...at least not in respect to his vows to his wife. It's cheating...pure and simple. It has nothing to do with his "motives"...actions speak louder than words. The simple fact that he's DONE it and is DOING it defines him.

As far as him "trying to get you into bed from the beginning" or not, I'd like to use my wife's case as an example again. She constantly told me that he never "pushed" or "pulled" her to make a decision to be with him. I read the logs of their chats for the last four days. I listened to what she told me of their talks. He did pull and push...he was subtle as hell about it though. He knew he'd get what he wanted a lot more effectively by taking his time and APPEARING not to have an agenda...but if you read what he was saying to her, he was leading her down specific lines of thought and action. I wish my wife could have sat and read those logs after she got over him...it probably would have been a real eye opener for her to have seen him in that light. But there is no way that she could have during the whole affair...because she was blinded by the glare of the whole thing.

January 13, 2005

owl,

i hope for your sake, and others, that i'm wrong but i really don't think the trust can ever be rebuilt. otherwise, why would there be such adamant insistence that the OW/OM disappear from their lives forever? my trust of relationships in general has been damaged by all of this. but only in part from what has directly happened to me. the rest of it comes from reading posts here and realizing what happens on the other side of the door....when the cheating spouse goes home. to have seen and heard the possible lies told to OWs and also to hear from the betrayed spouses and realize, all too well, the lies that are told to Ws and Hs about the relationship with the OW/OM is frightening. to know that in some cases, even though the relationship with the OW/OM has in effect stopped that the lies may be continuing. it is so easy to say that the MM is lying to the OW about feelings, etc. but those of us who have been there, know that there may be some lying going on to the BS about how they felt/feel about the OW. in an effort to save their own behind they may very well minimize the relationship with the OW/OM. much like they may have lied about the state of their marriage to the OW/OM. they may have become very adept at playing both sides of the situation and telling BOTH parties what they know they want to hear.

my MM and i are done but.... i do believe that in time we will regain that friendship that has been lost in the process. we had a conversation about that the other day and it's something we both want. but as he said to me, he's not at a point where he can trust himself with me but to be patient and that in time he will get there. oddly enough, i seem to be moving to that level much faster than he is. but will his wife ever trust him talking to or seeing me again? highly unlikely. if he starts spending huge amounts of time emailing someone and going on more business trips will she be suspicious? no doubt. i don't think she's asking for credit card receipts and cell phone bills anymore, but i have no doubt that it would only take one minor thing to send her over the edge again. and would i blame her since this is the 2nd time he's done this?????

there may be a new level of understanding that may happen through the healing that takes place after an affair but i can't imagine the same level of trust will ever come back.

January 13, 2005

Marriage with infidelity is hardly a "good marriage" in my opinion. That seems to be at debate here. But the question was- do MM really love their wives?

I think in most cases, yes they do.

January 13, 2005

On balance, they love them.. but they do not repsect them and they are no longer 'in love' with them.

What holds thme together is a piece of paper and societal pressures.

January 13, 2005

Originally posted by savethedrama4yrmama
Marriage with infidelity is hardly a "good marriage" in my opinion. That seems to be at debate here. But the question was- do MM really love their wives?

I think in most cases, yes they do.

Agreed! It seems certain people would like to believe that the cheating "H" just "can not" love their "W" if they cheat, it seems they don't want to accept that "possibly" this person is just selfish and only thinking of their own needs. In most cases lack of love for their "W" I don't think is even the issue. They must "love" the "W" in some way shape or form or else they wouldn't have married/stayed with them!

Sometimes I believe it helps the "OW" numb themselves to the reality that their "MM" are "playing" they dilude themselves into believing the "MM" ONLY

stays out of obligation or "fear" and come sleep with them because the "MM" Loves the "OW" but not the wife...

January 13, 2005

you're right...got somewhat off topic (sorry).

i don't believe that my exMM loves his wife, he cares about her but i do not believe that he's in love with her. and i don't believe she loves him either. but for catholic guilt, history of their relationship, the kids (even thought they're older) and a host of other reasons i will never understand, they are still together. but...i do not believe there is any love on either of their parts left in that relationship. a sad, sad state IMHO but his choice, his life!!!

January 13, 2005

Originally posted by izzybelle
you're right...got somewhat off topic (sorry).

i don't believe that my exMM loves his wife, he cares about her but i do not believe that he's in love with her. and i don't believe she loves him either. but for catholic guilt, history of their relationship, the kids (even thought they're older) and a host of other reasons i will never understand, they are still together. but...i do not believe there is any love on either of their parts left in that relationship. a sad, sad state IMHO but his choice, his life!!!

Wasn't this thread just in general do most "MM" still love their wives? When did it turn to "one specefic" "MM" loving their wife...?! Maybe I missed something!

January 13, 2005

deleted post

January 13, 2005

Wasn't this thread just in general do most "MM" still love their wives? When did it turn to "one specefic" "MM" loving their wife...?! Maybe I missed something!

sure, it was but i find it difficult to speak in general about a lot of men i don't know! so i'll talk about those i do. and in the past (and no i didn't "date" both of these others) i have known two other men who have cheated on their wives. both claimed that they didn't love their wives in fact one said that he didn't even like her. this from men who weren't trying to get into my pants!

January 13, 2005

Originally posted by stormywind
But here's the thing---can a marriage REALLY be good if a guy is cheating? I mean, it could look fine---they could be nice to each other, have fun together and sleep together---but it still can't be a good marriage because this is a relationship where trust is gone and he's mostl likely deceiving her.

The marriage might still be meeting most of his needs---so in effect, it's not a bad marriage for him. But it still is (in reality) a bad marriage.

I'm not at all saying that this is reason to get involved with a MM. There are no good reasons to. Most of us who have didn't plan on it.

But I don't think that ANY cheater can truely have a good marriage---at least not by my definition of what a good marriage is.

Maybe they MM does not care for his marriage nor does he care for the OW all he cares about is himself. He is just taking care of his "needs". Maybe it's him who does not allow the marriage to work.

Maybe it's not a good marriage but I can assure you that he does not have great affair either.

January 13, 2005

Originally posted by Leaf
On balance, they love them.. but they do not repsect them and they are no longer 'in love' with them.
What holds thme together is a piece of paper and societal pressures.

I think that is what OW tell themselves.

January 13, 2005

I loved my husband immensely when I had an affair.

January 13, 2005

Originally posted by Leaf
On balance, they love them.. but they do not repsect them and they are no longer 'in love' with them.
What holds thme together is a piece of paper and societal pressures.

Leaf-

Not sure I can agree with you. I am NOT staying and working things out with my wife because of either issues. We're still together because we ARE still in love...but I also freely admit that our case may be the exception rather than the rule.

I've seen noted that there are a lot of ASSUMPTIONS made about the MP/OP relationship by outsiders...especially by the betrayed spouse. I'm convinced that that works both ways...and that all of us tend to be blinded by our own roles and histories at times.

I (as a BS) tend to assume that the OP/MP relationship can't be as "powerful" or as "lasting" as the marriage relationship...because of the "lack of reality" that I feel exists in these relationships. But I TRULY don't know that....I've not been in a relationship like that. By the same token, it appears that many of the OM/OW's tend to think that things can never work out if the MM/MW tries to remain in their marriage after an affair...your comment being exactly that kind of statement. But you, like me, are generalizing. And again, like me, truly not sure because you've not been there (as far as I know).

Trust me...my wife didn't stay with me, and we're not working things out because anyone "expects" us to, or because of some piece of paper. We're working it out because we know that we love each other, and because we both can remember how good we had it for years before this happened.

Does my wife love me??? I can answer that with a resounding YES.

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