Babolat Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 From this thread (last page posts): http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/second-chances/445105-how-forgive-forget-accept-someone-has-changed-9.html I want to share with my gf the things about her that caused concern for me. I truly care about her, and love her, and, as a friend, I want to help her. I don't want her to move thru life making the same choices over and over, always landing in the same place. I also care about her daughter and want to see good things for her. Part of me says it's none of my business, she's an adult, she can figure this out, or not. Part of me says I care about her, I want to see her happy, I should kindly, and gently, share with her my impressions of her, and, why we did not work, where, should she chose to, she can make healthy improvements in her life. And share with her why probably why all of her relationships, have not worked. It's a challenge though. If I do she will feel attacked, picked on, and get defensive. If I don't, I almost feel like I would be misleading her by saying something silly like "we just don't work out" or "we are not compatible". I have never felt like this before with a woman. I have always just left, no real talks or even care to help the woman. In this case, I do. This woman has helped me a lot emotionally, she has talked to me about things she sees in my life, like no other woman ever has, and she has helped me. She was brave enough to share things she saw in my life, things I saw too, and she helped me. Plus, I love this woman, probably unlike any other woman before her. It just feels wrong to "break up" and walk away without sharing what I saw and what I still see.
mammasita Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I read a real quick excerpt from that thread where she said "its been 20 minutes, I only had 15"...... Based on that alone, I don't think anything you say to her will really matter. You might be wasting your breath.
MidwestUSA Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I can't help but feel she knows what it is that bothers you. You've been over it (and over and over). I appreciate that you want to help her, but...... Are her choices truly endangering anyone? I think she is going to feel defensive, and that you are picking at things. I recall a couple of instances where I thought I could help a guy after a breakup. Help him do better in the next relationship. Help him be more emotionally healthy, blah blah. All my words fell on deaf ears. They were 40 something year old men. Not going to change. Could see no wrong with the way they'd been doing things (even tho they weren't getting the results they wanted). As for letting her know why all of her relationships failed - no, absolutely do not go there! Focus on why you and she will not work, but don't expand from there. You're right, she's an adult. She has a fourteen year old; the next few years are going to be trying for her, but she'll be fine. I can't help but feel you're going to have to completely remove her from your life. I can't see you remaining friends without falling back into, um, bed. It's all or nothing, but you can't feel responsible for what happens to her from here on out. Go with the part of you that says it's none of your business. I know it sounds cold, but if you are to move on, I think that's what you need to do. Good luck! (So, do you think she really did not *hear* you when you told her you were done?) 1
Author Babolat Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 I understand, that to me, was situational, circumstational. She was still pissed at me (yes, she should have told me this as I never would have called her). The day prior I wanted to talk while I was upset, and asked for 10 - 15 minutes to do so. She said No, next day. When we talked the next day, she assumed it was going to be for 10 - 15 minutes still. And, when I started to ask more questions, she said she thought it was going to just be about our issue the day before. That I caught her off guard, which, I get. This woman did cut waaaay back on her drinking after I talked to her about it and broke up with her because of it. She said she finally realized that was not the way she wanted to be in her life. It took being away from me (the source of hearing she had a drinking problem) to realize that. So, she was receptive then to my input, and always has been.
PegNosePete Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Giving too much detail is not really a good idea. The fact is that you don't want to be with her any more. If you explain why in minute detail then there's a good chance she will "defend herself" by countering each and every one of your points with reasonable and rational arguments. What will you do then? You'll just have to do the bunny with a pancake on his head line (lol). The fact is that you want to end it because you want to end it. You should say that you don't feel it is working any more. She can't argue against or disprove your feelings. They are yours and yours alone. 1
Author Babolat Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 As for letting her know why all of her relationships failed - no, absolutely do not go there! I would never do/say that. I would hope, that by hearing what I saw in her, someone she tells me all the time she greatly respects, with us, she could connect the dots. But no, I would never tell her why her previous relationships failed. Great feedback, as always!
MidwestUSA Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 I think too, that she's going to feel like she's made all the changes she's going to. For you. And you're never going to feel like it's enough. She may have cut back on the drinking, but there are probably some underlying issues that could take years to resolve. That's something she needs to tackle on her own. She needs to understand WHY she partied like a 20 year old well into her 40s. 1
Author Babolat Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 I think too, that she's going to feel like she's made all the changes she's going to. For you. And you're never going to feel like it's enough. She may have cut back on the drinking, but there are probably some underlying issues that could take years to resolve. That's something she needs to tackle on her own. She needs to understand WHY she partied like a 20 year old well into her 40s. Agreed, and she already knows why, and has talked to me about it.
Author Babolat Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 I think too, that she's going to feel like she's made all the changes she's going to. For you. And you're never going to feel like it's enough. She may have cut back on the drinking, but there are probably some underlying issues that could take years to resolve. That's something she needs to tackle on her own. She needs to understand WHY she partied like a 20 year old well into her 40s. Interesting you say this, as she recently said to me "I thought if I took care of the drinking everything would be fine". I did too. As time went by though, all of the other concerns started to come back in my head. I guess, I had pushed those back in my memory as I was excited to see she had adressed the drinking, for her, and not for me. The message I am hearing here, is, when breaking up, keep it short, sweet, we are not working out kind of message, no need to try to help the other.
Ruby Slippers Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Interesting you say this, as she recently said to me "I thought if I took care of the drinking everything would be fine". That's sad, and again, totally parallels something my ex said. When we started having problems the second time, he said he would try to "change for me", by being more romantic, expressive, sweet, and other things. I said he shouldn't have to change himself, and if that's what it had come to, it pointed to incompatibility. He said things had improved and would keep getting better, but to me, it felt like "not enough". The message I am hearing here, is, when breaking up, keep it short, sweet, we are not working out kind of message, no need to try to help the other. Yes. I think the best thing you can do is end it in a civil, amicable way. I think it's good to give one simple, irrefutable, non-blaming reason. Mine was "I feel unloved and unappreciated" - simple, irrefutable, non-blaming. But I don't think it's helpful to go into a lot of detail. Possibly, you can be friends on down the line, as possibly my ex and I can as well. If that happens, you can then give her advice if she asks for it. But right now, I think it would be a better idea to keep it short and simple. Sorry it didn't work out. I have to say I saw it coming as soon as you got back together - but it still sucks. 1
MidwestUSA Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Interesting you say this, as she recently said to me "I thought if I took care of the drinking everything would be fine". I did too. As time went by though, all of the other concerns started to come back in my head. I guess, I had pushed those back in my memory as I was excited to see she had adressed the drinking, for her, and not for me. The message I am hearing here, is, when breaking up, keep it short, sweet, we are not working out kind of message, no need to try to help the other. Exactly. You were focused on one change, and granted it was a biggie, but those others are constantly going to surface. Relationships require work, but boy, there has to be a limit! Look back at how many posts you have here if you need a reminder. Yes, short, sweet and simple. Wish her well. Like Ruby said, maybe you can be friends in the future. For now, I think that sexual temptation is going to be there. Do you have the willpower? 1
Ruby Slippers Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Like Ruby said, maybe you can be friends in the future. For now, I think that sexual temptation is going to be there. Do you have the willpower? I don't think Babolat can be friends with her for a WHILE - months, if not a year or longer. Same for me and my ex. The pull is just too strong. 1
Author Babolat Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 Exactly. You were focused on one change, and granted it was a biggie, but those others are constantly going to surface. Relationships require work, but boy, there has to be a limit! Look back at how many posts you have here if you need a reminder. Yes, short, sweet and simple. Wish her well. Like Ruby said, maybe you can be friends in the future. For now, I think that sexual temptation is going to be there. Do you have the willpower? Agreed, Agreed &, Agreed The sexual temtapion is very very strong. Funny thing though, the past few times, sex has not felt the same, and, even the physical attraction has not been the same. I assume it's because of the other stuff I am seeing that concerns me. The final step for me, back in October, for moving on from her, was having sex with another woman. It was emotionally and physically difficult for me to do. But, once we did a few times, all was good, and yes, I lost my sexual obsession for her, and her body. Hope that makes sense.
Author Babolat Posted January 22, 2014 Author Posted January 22, 2014 I don't think Babolat can be friends with her for a WHILE - months, if not a year or longer. Same for me and my ex. The pull is just too strong. Agreed. I was there before she contacted me to meet to talk about trying again. In my mind, I was OK with her dating another man, and felt I could even see her with another man, and feel good about it. In fact, I kept saying No to her invite to meet, but her charm won me over and I agreed to meet her for dinner. I feel much stronger now than I did March 2013. This will still be difficult to go thru. I feel sad for her too, as she put a lot of work into this, and, she wants it, badly. That's probably a lot of what has kept me here this time. 1
FitChick Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Say whatever you like if it makes you feel better. You have nothing to lose. 1
isisisweeping Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Having been on the receiving end of one of those chats, I'm going to go with HELL NO. Also, do not tell her how much you love her, what she deserves, or anything like that. 3
TheGuard13 Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 If she wanted to know how she could change, she would have asked. If you want to stay on decent terms, or remain friends, I'd leave it alone.
Ruby Slippers Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 This will still be difficult to go thru. I feel sad for her too, as she put a lot of work into this, and, she wants it, badly. That's probably a lot of what has kept me here this time. Same here. My ex seemed so distraught about breaking up and turned into a blubbering mess anytime I brought it up - this from a normally very strong, stoic guy. It made no sense to me why he would be so careless and thoughtless about the way he treated me sometimes, given the feelings he seemed to have. My last straw was to ask him to talk to a counselor with me, but he refused that several times. So I felt I had no choice but to end it. What I've tried to focus on is that our time together was a blessing. Even though one could argue that I "wasted my time" with him, I have never felt like that. I know we both learned a LOT from it, and experienced a lot of personal growth, and I'll never forget the good memories. I have a feeling you can relate to that. (((( Babolat )))) 2
Grumpybutfun Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 (edited) Babolat: I think you did help her as much as she can be helped without you becoming a control freak who micromanages her life. The onus is on her to figure out her dynamic with others, and to control behaviors that she probably is aware you dislike but that she needs for coping or manipulating others in some way. The work you have put into this woman just from what you have written on this site reminds me of the saying that you can lead a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink. Your words are just words without her having the intestinal fortitude and insight to better herself, and though you have obviously deported much of your emotional support and resources to this woman, it might be best to step back and view this situation as the unending project that you would always feel it is. Telling her your insights may lead her to water, but if she is too focused on the oasis mirage in her head, she is not going to appreciate or notice the water right in front of her. Be kind, but really move on this time and figure out why you have this need to "fix" those who sabotage themselves in their own lives. This woman is not the right one for you if you keep dating her with to he same outcome. Her drinking like a frat girl is just one symptom of someone who is sabotaging themselves for psychological reasons that she as no insight into. Your vision is irrelevant to her journey because it is simply her journey and she doesn't understand your directions to get her where she needs to go. Idiomatically tapped out, Grumps Edited January 22, 2014 by Grumpybutfun 2
deathandtaxes Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 No need to say a dang thing. Not your responsibility. And you're only going to be doing it to assuage your own feelings in the matter, not to effect any kind of change in her. Let it go.
StanMusial Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 She knows what concerned you, all of it. It matters less now than it ever did, so don't do it.
fujidabruin Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Say whatever you like if it makes you feel better. You have nothing to lose. Babolat, if you hope to continue on as real friends, please do not do this ^^^ I was in a similar situation to you (she has an 18 yr old daughter too) and I am happy that I kept my "helpful comments" to myself. I later found out what I thought she needed was nothing but my own opinion. Any suggestions that you might express will almost certainly feel negative to her at this point. If you must walk away, just do that..... give her NC to heal before you try any type of "empowering discussion" about her life on her own. Good Luck dude 3
spiderowl Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 I was reading through your old thread and for a while was thinking you were way too concerned about her behaviour and maybe a little bit controlling, but then I got to the daughter bit. Going out and leaving a 14-year-old daughter sick is something I just would not do, unless she was happy and in the best of hands and didn't mind at all if I went out. Even then, I'd be too concerned that she might get worse or that the carer might not realise she was worse, so I can't imagine going out. It sounds like she does have a lot of good qualities, but in some areas is a bit impulsive. You are more of a thinker and someone who considers the consequences of what they do. You could be compatible, if she listened and paid attention to your concerns, but of course she is ignoring them. It is a shame if you like her and enjoy her company most of the time. You clearly care about each other. It is possible to love someone but not be able to live with them and be in a pair-bonding relationship with them. There are plenty of ex-husbands and wives who can testify to this, that they still love their ex but couldn't be with them any more. I get the impression your gut instinct is saying this can't work. Because you care about each other, you may end up having to go no contact to cope. Regarding your original question .... I will get to it ... I don't think it would serve any purpose to tell her what's wrong with her. I think she'll make the wrong choices regardless of any warnings because she's impulsive and does first, justifies later. Best to say you are very different personalities and not compatible, that you care a lot about her but it can't work. Easy to say, I know. 2
Author Babolat Posted January 23, 2014 Author Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I was reading through your old thread and for a while was thinking you were way too concerned about her behaviour and maybe a little bit controlling, but then I got to the daughter bit. Going out and leaving a 14-year-old daughter sick is something I just would not do, unless she was happy and in the best of hands and didn't mind at all if I went out. Even then, I'd be too concerned that she might get worse or that the carer might not realise she was worse, so I can't imagine going out. It sounds like she does have a lot of good qualities, but in some areas is a bit impulsive. You are more of a thinker and someone who considers the consequences of what they do. You could be compatible, if she listened and paid attention to your concerns, but of course she is ignoring them. It is a shame if you like her and enjoy her company most of the time. You clearly care about each other. It is possible to love someone but not be able to live with them and be in a pair-bonding relationship with them. There are plenty of ex-husbands and wives who can testify to this, that they still love their ex but couldn't be with them any more. I get the impression your gut instinct is saying this can't work. Because you care about each other, you may end up having to go no contact to cope. Regarding your original question .... I will get to it ... I don't think it would serve any purpose to tell her what's wrong with her. I think she'll make the wrong choices regardless of any warnings because she's impulsive and does first, justifies later. Best to say you are very different personalities and not compatible, that you care a lot about her but it can't work. Easy to say, I know. Her daughter was left alone, no care taker, while Mom drove 20 miles to a bar, to meet friends. This was at 10PM. On Sunday she said it was to meet a bunch of friends she had not seen in a while. On Monday she said it was to meet one friend, 1:1, to talk, privately, thus why I was not in the equation. Her stories change often, which s also frustrating. One of her other options was to drive 2 hours to meet a friend at a concert, because she had a free ticket. And her third option was to meet friends at a bar near my house. Again, I was "never in the equation" because she did not know my plans. The last time was at my house. She brought her sick daughter over, which I was fine with, and while there she was on the phone making plans to meet friends out (I had to go to an event for a few hours). She finally said she needed to stay with her sick daughter, +1 I thought. I get a text around 12PM asking when I would be home. When I get home at 12:30 she said she was thinking about meeting these same friends out for a drink, at 12PM. I asked about her daughter, again, she said she would be fine, she was sleeping, she is 14. She was going to leave my house at 12PM, leave her daughter alone, to meet friends for a drink. I was, once again, blown away. When I asked her why she did not go out she said she had gotten too tired, and had had 2 glasses of wine too so she thought she should stay in. + .5 for her. Taking on it's own, isolated, these things seem small. Looking at a lot of her life choices, past and prestn, as a whole, I just don't see us working. I want us to, badly, as otherwise she is amazing. It's been two days since I asked her to talk, no contact from her. Not sure if she is avoiding me or doing what she does often, takes time to process and think, then responds. She does listen to me when we talk, and she has always asked for my opinion/feedback. This time though, after reading the responses here, I think I am going to be quiet. I think there is a part of me that wants to help her "see the light" so we can work; that is not going to happen though; the replies here have helped me realize that. I have no issues with her being social, having a ton of friends. They are all mostly old drinking buddies, or current ones. Why no tmeet for lunch, or dinner? Why not invite them to your place? Why not invite them to my house? In our first 12 months, and 2nd 2 months, we never once went out for dinner, to a festival, to an event, with her friends. We did it all the time with mine. With hers, it was alwasy meeting at a bar to hang out and drink, or going to someones party. I am not going to go over a list of why we don't work, simply tell her we don't. She has alreqady heard this from me, thoug, so it will not be a srprise. I will tell her I'm happy for her for the drinking changes she made and grateful for the last 2 months we spent together. If she will not contact me soon, I hate to do this, but I will have to email her. I need to close this door and move forward. I don't feel like I know who this woman is. Prior to us having sex for the first time, she told me she does not sleep with a man until they are exclusive and comitted. Post breakup March 2013, she contacted me a lot, weekly sometimes, to give me updates on her progress working on herself. She kept telling me she was not drinking as much, yet she needed more time to work on herself. We never talked about getting back together if she "fixed" herself; this was all initiated by her. During those contact/talks, we had sex, a lot of sex. About 2 weeks into seeing each other again this November she told me she spent time this summer talking to her ex fiance, that they worked through some of the misunderstandings, had a better understanding why they did not work out, and, had sex, more than once. And, they became Facebook friends again. I asked her if she thought it was morally ok to have sex with 2 men at the same time; she said yes, because her and I were not comitted. True, we were not comitted in the traditional sense, but their was a level of comittment in my eyes, and I know hers too. And she told me she never sleeps with a man unless they are comitted and exclusive. So now I ask myself, who is she? And, I don't trust her. Yeah, we all make a bad choice, but this was not sex once, she said it was more than once, so their was a choice to repeat sex with him. And she did this while also having sex, with me. Plus, she told me when we met she was over him, healed, etc. Then why go back to him, and, have talks, and, have sex? It took me a looooong time before I could have sex with another woman; I had to make clear in my mind we were done before I could. Thank you for the thoughtful feedback, it is very much appreciated. Edited January 23, 2014 by Babolat
MidwestUSA Posted January 23, 2014 Posted January 23, 2014 I sorta skimmed your last post, but I thought of this. By the time I hit 40, I could count on one hand the number of times I went to a bar in a year (unless it was to eat). And I didn't have a kid. Granted, I was technically married, but had all the freedom to do whatever I wanted. Even after the divorce, the bar scene just never interested me. I have a home, a nice yard, a patio; I'd much rather have people over. I can remember only one time in my life getting a call and heading out the door late, like 10:30 or midnight. The sex with the ex thing? Guess what? That temptation is always going to be there. She's over their breakup enough to sleep with him. Why not do it again? What's the worst that can happen? They break up, LOL? I agree that she's impulsive, and not always thinking 'like a grown up'. She sure extended her partying days long past what most of us did! Anyway, good luck to you!
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