last nght my exbf and I had the dreaded "talk"

[smile]

your dead on. I am trying so hard to fight it but when I start to feel overwhelmed my self esteem plumets and I just see everyone in the world as more worthy of attention than I am. I become isolated.

 

I have been through therapy for this and its like it happens ya know? This is way more controlled and normal than it used to be. In the past I wouldve not talked to him .. walked outside went to an other store, force him to chase me to reassure that he cared. This time I got irritated and then let it go.

 

The problem here is I dont have anything to hold onto ya know? I cant say oh he is my bf and he loves me so what need I worry? He has every right to see or flirt with whomever he wants. That adds to the insecurity.

 

I know if he was gonna do that in front of me then he is prob the kind of guy that would do that when we were together, which he didnt and wouldnt. The jealousy is something I need to deal with.

 

Its inside my head and I need to stop and look at the situation realistically. It is then that I see there is nothing terribly wrong with chatting with the book clerk. She was talking to US... he was obviously standing with me, talking to me, and playfully biting and nuzzling my shoulder. You see a guy and a girl like that together at a book store on a friday night and I guess she prob thought we were together.. she was just trying to enjoy a dead night at the bookstore.

 

I dont see that instinctively. Its weird that I basically have to retrain my mind how to react or even how to see situations.

 

But the difference is I am making a concerted effort to try and see it from all angles. I can make myself miserable now and later.. or just enjoy now and if something happens be miserable then. I know.

 

I know ppl get tired of hearing about parents relationships messing up the kids lives but my dad was so unfaithful. I am a mexican... infidelity is generally accepted in the old world machismo end of the spectrum. So it scares me. If a girl cant trust her daddy who can she trust right? But like I said I am working on it and working on me.

 

I cant change who I am but I can choose to really see who he is. He cares about me I know that. He doesnt want to hurt me. He is like bumping into walls all over the place.. has no idea where he is going or what he wants or needs or anything. But there seems to be a need/desire/ attraction/ whatever that makes him not want to let me go.

 

I am trying as hard as I can... and even harder sometimes. I went to the bathroom that night just to breathe and gather my thoughts. I was better after that. I just need a reality check and then afterwards let myself admit that I was overreacting.. see that nothing happened and hope that makes it easier to trust the next time.

[Universe]

I've always envied your situation because your ex actually calls you all the time. But lately I've really found it annoying. I mean - I wish he could just leave you alone for a couple weeks or so. It's like - you guys haven't gone more than a couple days without talking to one another. You just need more time to think than that. It's like, he's too weak to go a couple days without contacting you, and at the same time, he's too weak to see clearly what he wants. Doesn't he realize that he needs to be alone for a little while to figure it out? It always just seems like he's running around like a chicken with his head cut off. It maddening, even for me. And you only exist in cyberspace for me. Does he have any will power? It's not fair to you. Here you are trying to be there for him and he just seems to be stalling because he's afraid. So it puts you in a very difficult position.

 

About the jealousy thing: Have you told him that it's ok if he wants to see other women? Yeah - as I know very well, when an ex sleeps with someone else, it FREAKIN' HURTS!!! Heck. Just watching them flirt hurts! But I don't know. I think you just have to set them free. If you really love them, you'll let them live their own life. You'll let them experience the joys of being free of you. That means sharing them with whomever else they choose to be with. It's their decision not yours. The decisions they make on their own largely define who they are. You can love and hate those decisions. But they belong to them, not you. And while you may judge them and they may hurt you, it says nothing about you. That's the most important thing you have to get through your head. And it isn't easy. I still haven't gotten it through mine. But I'm getting closer.

 

He's making it really hard for you by not leaving you alone. But the next time he makes a point to tell you that he's not with someone else, tell him that you don't need him to tell you that. Tell him it's ok. Tell him that you want him to do whatever makes him happy. Tell him you may not like what he does, but you can't have your feelings affect his actions like that. You don't want your feelings to affect his actions. Obviously you wish he wouldn't partake of certain actions, but you need to let him choose them or not choose them. You don't own him and you never will. But he doesn't own you either. You can do whatever you want too. I know you don't want to, but get out and meet some totally new people. It's hard and seems pointless because you don't want someone new. But it will help you to feel free and alive and unnattached. It's liberating.

 

I'll leave it at that for now. I just know this jealousy things has to stop if you're ever going to get back together. And he needs to feel that his decisions are entirely his own and not derived through his concern for you.

 

I know you know all this. But I also know it helps to hear someone else say it.

 

So good luck. I hope this helps.

[smile]

I have been going out and meeting new people. Not only does it feel empowering but it makes me realize how I can be in a room full of guys all night and not have sex with them. That means he can do the same. Usually, when I would hear he was haning out with any girl and didnt call me, well then he must be sleeping with her... DUMB I KNOW but its how I used to feel.

 

As far as the sex with others thing goes.. he had a gf for 3 months after me. They had sex. But he said when he was with her all he could think of was me. He has said he has a hard time being sexually attracted to anyone other than me. So there you go.

 

Lately he has been kind of odd. Very flirty and clingy , huggy and sad... but he doesnt push to have sex with me. Its weird because the last time we had sex he stayed the night and woke up here in the am. I didnt work that day and him and I had breakfast and coffee. He said "you make the best eggs ever" then he said "you make the best coffee ever". And as he left it felt really wifey sending hubby off to work.

 

Since then he calls still and chats for a long time. He was all flirty at the bookstore on a friday night mind you, and then was going to stay but decided to watch tv with his dad instead.

 

Yesterday he came by to pay me for the phone bill. He gave me a hug straightaway when he saw me. Hasnt done that in a while. Then he said he was sorry I didnt feel well and he hugged me and held me tight.

 

Then in the kitchen he just reached over and held me so tightly. I have a bad cold so I aksed him to put pressure on my back... he held me and rubbed my back. Then we went into my room bc my phone was going off. It was a reminder thingy. So we sat on the bed and chatted. He laid back on the bed but I didnt initiate anything.

 

He sat straight up and said he should go. He was nervous about moving. I told him it would be fun for him. He said he would be back tonight. In town ya know ? Staying at his dad's . Said he wasnt moving yet just moving his things.

 

He asked if his puppy would love him and I said of course he will love you you give him food , shelter, cuddles, and security. And he said... thats just what girls want. And we were kind of sitting in a weird "we are so comfortable with eachother the way we are sitting feels so normal even tho it looks insanely akward" position, and it just felt like we were both falling into eachother ya know? Conetent. Secure.

 

He asked me to call in sick tomororw. I am sick but he is going to also and he is going to the mountains... I cant call in bc we are already understaffed for tomorrow. He said ok but seemed kinda bummed.

 

When I was at work I talked to him and said I didnt feel good. Actually my boss was trying to send me home. He kept telling me to go home. He didnt work yesterday. But it was like yeh go home so we can hangout kinda vibe I got.

 

When he left he asked me to help him carry stuff to his car... umm he didnt NEED my help but ok. So I did and he showed me how packed up it was... He said he was sad. I said be excited... but moving is sad too.. he hugged me and just held me so tightly again.

 

He had to go to band practice so he left. But when we said goodbye it was almost like we were going to go into that wifey kiss goodbye. you know the sweet quick peck. the one that just comes so natural. But I think we both went halfway and then stopped. We looked at eachother and just said goodbye. But with big smiles.

 

Maybe this HUGE shift in his life, the shaking out of his security of being at home and feeling safe will make him see some things. He may be able to finally be in a situation where that safe at home feeling he has with me is something he is longing for. Does that make sense?

 

Like in this world I think the person we are looking for is that one who makes us feel as happy and secure as when we were kids. That "at home" feeling , found on your own.. away from mom and dad or sister and brother. A place where we feel accepted and loved. Soemwhere you can go and always know that person is on your side. I know he feels all those things about me.

 

I just hope he figures it out soon.

 

Any thoughts?

[ex]

Originally posted by Universe

I think you just have to set them free. If you really love them, you'll let them live their own life. You'll let them experience the joys of being free of you. That means sharing them with whomever else they choose to be with. It's their decision not yours. The decisions they make on their own largely define who they are. You can love and hate those decisions. But they belong to them, not you. And while you may judge them and they may hurt you, it says nothing about you.

 

Tell him you may not like what he does, but you can't have your feelings affect his actions like that. You don't want your feelings to affect his actions. Obviously you wish he wouldn't partake of certain actions, but you need to let him choose them or not choose them. You don't own him and you never will. But he doesn't own you either. You can do whatever you want too.

 

 

Universe, that is some deep sh*t.

 

I've read it 3 times, and I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. Is it really possible for one to be emotionally okay with their love not wanting to "be" with them? Or do you have to have somewhat fallen out of love yourself to really be okay with that? I think MAYBE what you're describing is an ideal, but something that none of us can actually handle within a relationship. I don't know that it really "says nothing about you." Just thinking out loud, but what it might indicate is a lack of self-esteem. Possibly, it's sacrificing your own happiness for someone else's. Which we all know spells danger for a relationship.

 

That said, Smile, I agree with what Universe is getting at about your jealousy issues. It's clear that you "ex" (honestly, if you ask me, you're still in a relationship, whether either of you is calling it that or not) still loves you, and that you should feel more secure about what you mean to him, whoever else he's sleeping with, or not.

 

But while I don't think other women should concern you so much, I am troubled for you in that he doesn't want to "commit." As most everyone here will say, I'll also say: please give him distance and room to miss you. I believe in the basic principles of NC, though I don't necessarily think they ought to be followed literally (depends on each situation).

 

I've been reading some books on male psychology and relationships. The thing that sticks with me most regarding your situation is that "men are like rubberbands." That is, they need to pull away at times, but they will come springing back. It's actually very predictable behavior. But if you don't respect the elasticity, ie give them the room to do this "pulling" and "springing," the rubber band may snap.

 

I don't even think your relationship is over. IMHO, work on your self-assurance (don't tell him about it, just do it - keep up with your running and counseling, do some soul searching, read some books - I recommend "What Men Really Want" by Herb Goldberg, still looking for a good book on women's self-esteem myself) , give him space, and I bet you'll find that your relationship is stronger than ever.

 

Then again, what do I know, I'm significantly older than you and single again. But just adding my opinion/ encouragement for what it's worth. Good luck! Gad, I wish us all love and happiness!

[Universe]

Smile.

It just seems like you've hit this wierd stagnation. Nothing is really changing. It doesn't seem like either of you are really growing. I don't know what to tell you. It's good that he's moved away from home. That may be key in helping him to grow and understand himself better. Having your very own space that it totally yours is a very empowering and healthy experience. Everyone must experience it at certain points in their life. I've had it twice now and both times were the most therapeutic times in my entire life. I've never grown more than when I was completely on my own.

Ex. Thank you for the kind words. You already know I think you're the Shiz-nizzle! The questions you bring up about my post are more than valid and should be asked.

I think MAYBE what you're describing is an ideal, but something that none of us can actually handle within a relationship.

You're absolutely right. It is an ideal. But the thing about ideals is that they are rarely realistic, but they are something you an strive for.

what it might indicate is a lack of self-esteem. Possibly, it's sacrificing your own happiness for someone else's. Which we all know spells danger for a relationship.

Two things: First, it could easily be a lack of self-esteem and one should always consider that. But what it really indicates is a lack of pride, not a lack of self-esteem. And as I've said in the past, I don't think there's any need for pride in love when you have self-respect. Second, it's not only possible that you are sacrificing your own happiness for someone else's, you are definitely sacrificing your own happiness for someone else's. And, of course, that's dangerous. But I think, and maybe I'm wrong, that this is temporary. It cannot persist. And that's really the big question one must ask themself when they are deciding whether or not to continue investing their time and energy into salvaging a relationship. No matter how you look at it, you are making a sacrifice. Someone has left you and hurt you. Your sacrifice is your pride and the risk of even greater heart break. So by deciding to try to get them back, you are deciding to make certain kind of sacrifice. The important thing is to understand that you are making this sacrifice and that you set limits on how far you will go. You MUST set limits. You must NEVER sacrifice your self-esteem or your self-respect. After that, it's only a matter of determining if it's worth it. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes you make a sacrifice and you realize you've gone too far. That's when your self-respect will force you to pull back or give up on the person. You've given them all that you are willing to give.

In my situation, I can say that my ex made certain sacrifices for me while we were together. Big ones. So it's easier for me to look at her now and be willing to sacrifice my own happiness for hers. But this will only go on for so long. Eventually I will feel that she is taking me for granted and my sacrifice is outweighing hers. This is when I will pull back. And I'm starting to see signs of that in myself. I'm starting to feel like I'm spreading myself a little thin. I can only spread myself so much further.

 

The main thing is that they feel free. They must feel that they are truly free. Their decision to come back to you must be entirely their own and not derived at all from how it affects you. Of course they should consider how it will affect you before they actually come back. But their decision that they want you back has to be totally free. See the difference?

At least that's how I see it. I don't want my ex to come back just because she doesn't want to hurt me anymore or because she knows that it would make me happy. She has to want it independent of me. She has to be free to choose other men over me in order to truly be given a choice. Saying it's me or nothing isn't respecting her right to choose.

If she stretches it too far and I decide to totally give up, then it will be her who will have to make the sacrifice to win me back.

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm completely off here. Maybe this should be its own thread.

 

Jealousy, monogamy, and possessiveness: Who knows? These problems go back to the beginning of humanity. We're not likely to figure them out now.

 

One thing I can say is, I loved it when my ex was possessive of me and jealous of other girls I talked to. But maybe that's because she always really made me feel like she was totally mine. Obviously, this dynamic did not work out in the long term.

 

Good luck with the jealousy thing, Smile. It's a b*tch.

[ex]

yeah, sorry we co-opted your thread here a bit, smile.

 

nice post, universe. you sound almost scholarly about this stuff. really interesting words, and it's definitely appreciated.

 

all yours, smile!

[smile]

Hey don't even worry about it. I think its cool thay my situation sparked that kind of in depth discussion. I think too often we get do this, dont do that answers when its really not that simple

 

Having read what you both wrote I realize it isnt as easy as one answer. There are so many different perspectives and points of view in this world. I mean here I am crying and whining because he isnt here with me .. the typical simple thing EVERY ex wants, but emotionally we remain deeply connected. You're right I should be happy with the fact that he loves me. He is going through something tough right now. I cant fix it, but the only way I can truly prove that I love him is to accept him.

 

That doesnt mean I have to be like 'oh yeah you had sex with her thats incredible' but I can refrain from laying in bed at night worrying who he is sleeping with. Since the chances are its nobody. Even if it is somebody.

 

Having said that ... Its hard to discern between "letting him be" and being a doormat. You know old faithful or whatever. I guess thats what the distance thing is.

 

So what do I do? No more phone calls or chats to him? Make him come to me? If we are supposed to be friends dont friends call eachother? How long before he feels I am not interested and moves along?

 

See I am such a dope. I say there is no clear cut answer and then I ask for one. Ok ok keep running, counseling, and working on me. Yeh I know.

 

March 2nd he is leaving for 2 months. On the road thats a lot of time to think ya know?

 

You both seem to think that we are still together, in a sense. You know it feels that way to me. But what do I know? I am dumb girl.

[smile]

Soo maybe I am weak too because I am not too well with the NC for more than a couple days. I dont have much willpower to not txt or call. For a while there I wasnt calling at all and he would say "you know you can call me too if you want". So I dont know..

 

Anyway I was ok after the first 2 months of NC. Then he started comming around and that time gave me new perspective and allowed distance. But lately he has been so close and clingy that I feel like the 2 months never happened. Like the positive outcome of that time has been fading a little more everytime we are together.

 

I am at home and sick. I have nothing to do. So I am sitting here in my room watching tv and falling asleep sporadically. It sucks because I am not busy. I cant be I am sick. I have too much time to sit and think.

 

Damn flu.

 

Any ideas on how to keep my mind occupied whilst my insides fight a battle with this icky virus? Or even after I get better?

[Universe]

Your situation perplexes me. But allow me to make a suggestion. And take my advice with caution. But I think you're really feeling taken advantage of. You feel taken for granted. It might be time to seriously pull back. Don't simply stop contacting him. Be unavailable to him. That doesn't mean avoiding his calls. That means: He calls to hang out, you answer and say, I can't hang out because I have to go here or do this or that. I know I've advised you to do something similar in the past. But this contacting each other every couple days thing just doesn't seem right. No offense, but txt messaging seems retarded to me. No meaningful information can really be passed on through a txt and they invariably seem to cause confusion. So it's just annoying.

I'm sorry you're sick. Does he know that? Is he making an effort to care for you in your time of illness?

I don't know what else to say but to relax. Look out for number 1 and do what makes you happy (which doesn't include contacting him because you miss him.)

[smile]

He knows I am sick. He is in the midst of moving and he has show tonight in the city, plus he has work everyday. When he came over he was all snuggly and cuddly and said he was sorry I was sick. He said he couldnt hang out because he had band practice but he hoped I felt better soon.

 

He has ben sick too. Sort of a thing going around. I know what you mean about being unavailable. Its just so hard to say no. I know tho... its better in the long run. The more I can pull back the more I can respect myself.

I get that, I do.

 

Taken advantage of may not be the right wording.. but maybe it is. I guess I just feel like Woody in toy story. Ya know like Andy has grown up and there are all these new things and the one special friend just gets tossed to the wayside. When he leaves woody at the house when they move Andy realizes that he needs woody. Looks for him like crazy and in the end when they are reuinited Andy truly seems to appreciate his old friend..... hmm I dunno. I have the flu.

 

I still feel icky but its a dark and stormy night so I am gonna start a fire and watch an old movie. I miss him. But I know youre right. Why did you say take your advice with caution?

[Universe]

I said take my advice with caution because I'm not sure if what I told you is the right thing. I'm uncertain of my advice. I think I'm right. But your situation sounds pretty delicate. Maybe it's not. I don't know.

The more I can pull back the more I can respect myself.

It's fine that you've been giving him free cuddles and intimacy. But I don't think you can let that go on indefinitely. It totally depends on how you feel. If it feels right to pull back, then do it. Otherwise, don't. I think you'll know when you're being taken for granted. You'll feel used. You'll have this sinking feeling in your stomach.

 

Sorry your still sick. I hope your feeling better.

[smile]

There is a sinking sadness inside. More of a burning in my stomach actually. Might be the hot sauce I had all over my nachos but I have a feeling its more.

 

Inside I feel that I need to take some space. But I am not so sure about the rejection part. He still hasnt called and I have no intentions on calling him. He has a lot of band practices.. he is moving, he has work and he is going to play 2 shows on tuesday because thats the official release date of their album.

 

I know he is busy but I mean he used to call me during this stuff so I guess its extra sad that I am not there and he isnt calling to update me. But there is nothing I can do about that.

 

I have this feeling inside that we belong together. He loves me.. he shows it and even admits it. I know he just needs time and he needs to get his head straight. I know that means I need to give him space.

 

The other night when we were hanging out he said "I am unstable you know that dont you" and I said duh yeh I know.. kinda joking. Then he got defensive and said he was more stable than some ppl.

 

The other day he also said I was right about something. Then he said " you are always right, about everything". I hope that means I am right about us.

 

So do you vote no on the house warming gift? Something small like a plant or just leave it be?