mortensorchid Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 It is a very fine line when this happens. There are many factors you have to consider during this ... 1) Educational inequity - The one party that is less educated than the other will resent the other party because they have/had certain things that the other did not/does not have. This can apply to material things as well as educational background. 2) Double standard - I don't care how far we have or haven't come, this double standard still exists. That is, men can be of an upper class and choose a woman who is of a lower class than they are (think Cinderella and Prince Charming), while it cannot happen the other way around for women (think Daisy and Gatsby in The Great Gatsby - "Rich girls don't marry poor boys.") 3) Snobbery - My parents' generation is more of a fan of saying these things, but I have heard just as many my age who have said the same things. They told me from the time I started my first job (which my dad pushed me into kicking and screaming) that I was only to associate with other young, recent college graduates. I had worked at this company during summers, knew it very well, and I told him there were none there and he refused to believe that was true. Over time I proved him wrong (because when it came/comes to my social life, he has been anything but right), but I think his primary goal was to get me to have a nice social network of good people. Little did I know that one does not go to work to make good friends (but that's another story). Not only were they not a social network, but they were not good people to begin with. I have also heard some who are my age or thereabouts say that they only want to associate with other college graduates rather than someone who is less educated. Well ... Maybe so for some. Yet, you have to consider that we have to live in a world side by side with many people from many walks of life, be it business or personal. There is no reason we have to exclude unless they do or say something horrible to others. 4) Hypocrisy - Life is complicated, I fully admit that. We think that those who achieve things in their lives, especially job success and wealth, is a sign that they are good people. True? Well, my mom had a former friend of hers who she believed was good. My mom, just so you know, is a complete and utter snob. She wouldn't believe that there was abuse going on in the house, that they were all geniuses, and that ultimately this woman would choose her over her terrible lies. Why? Because this woman was a college graduate and too smart to be anything but. Not true. She lashed out at my mom then ended the relationship. I also showed her on my phone a mug shot I pulled up of a gal I went to high school with who is serving multiple life sentences in a maximum security prison in the Pacific Northwest for Arson 1 and Murder 2. She was horrified, I said why are you stressing out over someone you would otherwise consider human trash? Because she was/is of an upper class than someone like Aileen Wurnos? Wasn't the point of all those documentaries and movies and whatnot made about Aileen Wurnos supposed to tell us that sometimes bad things happen to otherwise good people? Does that apply to the woman I went to high school with and every other social interaction between others? Maybe so. It's a fine line, life is complicated. It may vary from case to case.
Woggle Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 My wife comes from an upper class background but her parents are rich hippies from the 60s who never sold out so they welcome me with open arms. I come from the hard knocks and while I am doing quite well these days where I come from will never leave me and I don't even want it to anyway. Our relationship works great because we look at money as a means to an end. It is a resource to be able to do what we want but doesn't make us who we are. 3
Leigh 87 Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 My theory is: very well off men that can afford to go snowboarding and indulging in other expensive hobbies and also enjoy world travel - they have less REASON to want a wife or partner. If they are decent looking they can just have casual sex with attractive women. SOME of them have lesser need for companionship and monogamy because they can afford to entertain themselves with world travel and expensive hobbies. There ARE, sadly, some people out there who only really seek out a partner because they have nothing better to do; they don't have the money to have hobbies or travel, so they seek out female company even though they may not even be the type of guy who needs it (in ideal circumstances). For MANY men, it would take an extra special women to literally take their breath away, for some well off men to settle down. They simply can afford to have too much fun in life for them to "need" a partner, VS the people who don't really want a long term partner yet lack the means to have "fun" in life (so resort to settling easier than the well of men). Here is what I would do if I was wealthy; I would get a nose job ( I am rather attractive without my bad nose), and I would then travel the world. I really wouldn't feel AS MUCH need to have a partner, since I could be on such a high from world travel and other fun activities/hobbies. I would still prefer to have a partner in life irrespective of how well if I was, hypothetically.
deathandtaxes Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 What's wrong with your nose, Leigh 87? Money doesn't impress me. I'm not rich. I do ok. I can pretty much do what I want within reason. I do want to date within my own social 'class'. White collar middle class. Because that's what I know. We're likely to have similar life experiences and want to do the same things in life. Would I exclude somebody just on the sake of their social class? Depends on the person, I suppose. I've never had that opportunity.
carhill Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 I know we all like to pretend this doesn't matter, but in reality I think people end up with others in the same social class because of the familiarity. What do you guys think? If I were to analyze my social circle, I'd say it generally aligns with your assertion. I first noted this back in private school where it was perfectly fine to be 'school friends' with the children of the community leaders but that ended at the school property line. Today it manifests more like social friendships are OK but they wouldn't be introducing a single sibling or relation to me for purposes of 'socializing', especially since, even though I come from a solid white collar middle class family, I've chosen a more 'rustic' blue collar life path and style. However, there's bound to be a reunion of some sort coming up so it's easy to revisit the dynamic. One never knows. Aging does interesting things to people.
Author abby_tx Posted January 20, 2014 Author Posted January 20, 2014 I'm very careful with my money. I have my student loans all paid off. The only debt I have now is from a new (to me) car I just bought, but I went with reasonable over flashy. On dates with guys, I also always offer to pay my half. So, I would think if he did want to date me he would see right away I'm not a leech and also (hopefully) see that I don't care about his money. I am really just looking to find someone I emotionally connect with and find attractive. Finding both seems almost impossible these days.
sw2020 Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 I shall be brutally honest. The fact you're posting on a site about it being a potential problem (when you've not even met) would suggest that it is already a problem to you. The likelihood is that it's more of a problem to you than it is him. There's a far greater chance of you causing it to not work through your actions rather than social standing. Although you will likely blame the social standing even though that was never the problem. 3
Arieswoman Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 It all depends on the people involved. My first husband was, like me, degree-level educated and worked as a higher manager for a well-known company in UK. I felt we were intellectual and social equals. He cheated on me with, and went on to marry a girl who worked on the factory floor who was as thick as a brick and had a mouth like a midden. My second husband comes from a working-class background, his dad was a plumber who ran his own business. He left school with few educational qualifications but got an apprenticeship as a joiner and then worked his way up into the higher levels of another well-known UK company. My second husband has qualities that are more important to me than class issues. We go to the same church, enjoy gardening and pets. He looked after an elderly mother for years, so I know he would be able to look after me if he was sick. He likes my friends and family and pulls his weight about the house (cooking, cleaning etc). IMO "class" is only an issue if you make it one. 2
newmoon Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) I think it's hard. I come from money and have never had to worry about anything, and I dated a guy for 3 years that was on social assistance. I knew he was 'less rich' than me when we met, but I didn't realize he was on food stamps and housing subsidy until a few months into the relationship. He had the same level of education as me (a master's) but he wasn't using it to further himself. The relationship had problems that went beyond money differences, but the 'social class' thing did make a difference in terms of our backgrounds - my exposure to things (cultural, education, travel, etc.) was superior to his knowledge, my ability to afford meals or excursions or dates in general was above his and I always had to consider affordability when we went out. so, I found myself doing activities that were often free/low-cost and although that is ok for a while, my preference is to see a play inside a theater and not on the grass in a park. so, for some 'richer' people the poor lifestyle loses the novelty after a while. he was also just less ambitious overall because he - perhaps? - felt he would never attain more. so, I believe sticking to your social class is better, definitely long-term, because the values align better and the life experiences are often similar. I don't know how the 'poor' person in the relationship feels but for the one with the money it does feel like dropping your standards and that only works for so long. since that relationship ended (about 7 months ago) I have promised myself that dates must have a criteria that they have to meet - for my own happiness. Edited January 20, 2014 by newmoon
jba10582 Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 "class" is only an issue if you make it one. stop making problems up. if there is something that can be fixed, then there is no need to worry if there is something that canNOT be fixed, then there is no need to worry
Shepp Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 If I say 'profession: lawyer' - I'd think 'middle class'. As for dating outside your social class in general.....it can work but only if your core values and outlook on money are the same and I guess there more likely to be the same if you grew up in the same class (even if you didn't necessarily stay in it). And also thinking about it as a working class boy I don't meet all that many 'middle class' girls and hardly any 'upper class' people full stop - way of the world I guess.
nomadic_butterfly Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 You have a good point with not taking it seriously until he proves himself. I should treat all relationships like this in the beginning. I get too invested too quickly. There is another guy online who I'd also perhaps meet and we have similar backgrounds, but the downside is he's 4 years younger than me (He's 27. I'm 31). Unless he's snooty with his nose up in the air, I think similar values hold more weight that just one's financial/social status at this particular moment in time. Life has marginal guarantees besides death and taxes. You can have it all today and lose it tomorrow; or vice versa. For instance, let's say a well-to-do man liked me. I come from a middle classed upbringing but started off at the lower end of the totem pole. My parents busted their balls, working two to three jobs to ensure we we would move to a better neighborhood, better schools and live the American dream; after all, that is why they brought us here to begin with. Looking at me now, wracked with student loan debt, not suffering but could be better, I know I will be a millionaire one day. I am laying the groundwork now, making contacts, and setting up my business plan while strategizing every move and I am very practical and intuitive. A rich guy may very well give me a chance because I am not looking to ride his coattails; rather I have strong vision and talent that would make me an asset, and not a liability. I strongly believe values, vision, goals have more weight. I've gone on a few dates with millionaires and I wasn't the least bit intimidated; they aren't any better than I am! They enjoyed our conversation, I spoke of my business plans and got their input, however for other reasons (mainly because they lived in other countries and/or was wwwaayyy older than me), it didn't pan out.
FitChick Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 It's more of a problem if the man is poorer. Plenty of rich and famous men marry women far beneath them class wise and education wise. Go out with him. The problem is you feeling inferior. You need to get over it. As far as wearing expensive clothes, if you date him he will buy them for you if it means accompanying him to a formal occasion, for example. All you have to say is, "I can't afford that." 1
GirlontheLam Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 In my humble opinion, its very difficult to make it work. I come from a high class family, and every single man I have ever dated was of a lower class. This made it difficult because we couldn't do many things together as they were financially held back. Biggest example is traveling. How can I always travel alone? I expect a man to be able to pay for himself, and if he can't do that, it's not fair I say "Okay well I'm going on vacation bye!". I think it also depends on the gender. If a man dates a lower class woman, since he's the man it's more socially acceptable (and men are more willing) to help bring her up to his level, whereas a woman expects a man to carry his own weight and has no social obligation to pay for the dates etc. Have this problem now. I've been seeing someone for a few months, and I am the one with the higher social class. We just have wildly different backgrounds in all respects. Me: two parent middle class household. Him: single mom lower class household. He is trying to "find his way" right now, and he is trying to start a business while being under-employed. (we met in the context of an entrepreneurial group) Sometimes he does make comments, like "you are like this because you had the opportunity to have two parents who care about you." And sometimes he makes comments around feeling "inferior." Really, not sure how I feel, it is confusing. We get along well in lots of ways, but that feels like a huge bridge to cross too. But on the other hand we have some surprising common interests too. (my stranger ones). I typically have relationships (friendship and romantic) with people in similar stations to me. So there is a bit of a cultural divide. But as for a lawyer/middle class? Usually that isn't a big leap. Especially for newly minted lawyers with student loan bills.
WrinkledForehead Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 (edited) Don't be so quick to dismiss it. My bf makes far more than me but he wouldn't seem as if he did. He wears jeans and tshirts to the grocers, just as I do. We went out to eat tonight with my kids and while that's a treat for me and my two, and I chipped in $40 on the tab. He would've been willing to pick it up, an often does, but I do enjoy contributing a bit as well. It has been a small issue but not too much of one. I didn't know he makes what he does until we were several months into our relationship. The biggest place where it causes issues is when I'm struggling and he wants to help, but my pride disallows it. And he appreciates that I work hard for the things I do have. As a PP said, its a challenge, but not insurmountable. Neither of us are lavish and I know that even when I get stressed about my personal bills, I will never drown in them. We work through it Best! ~WF Edited January 21, 2014 by WrinkledForehead autocorrect :/
Woggle Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Social class is a man made concept. Deep down we all bleed the same blood and if things really hit the fan the poorer classes would probably do much better anyway because they know how to survive on nothing. I also have know many so called upper class types who have act like complete pigs. 2
FitChick Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 if things really hit the fan the poorer classes would probably do much better anyway because they know how to survive on nothing. In the days before welfare, yes, because they were self reliant, not reliant on the State.
rosedl Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 My theory is: very well off men that can afford to go snowboarding and indulging in other expensive hobbies and also enjoy world travel - they have less REASON to want a wife or partner. If they are decent looking they can just have casual sex with attractive women. SOME of them have lesser need for companionship and monogamy because they can afford to entertain themselves with world travel and expensive hobbies. There ARE, sadly, some people out there who only really seek out a partner because they have nothing better to do; they don't have the money to have hobbies or travel, so they seek out female company even though they may not even be the type of guy who needs it (in ideal circumstances). For MANY men, it would take an extra special women to literally take their breath away, for some well off men to settle down. They simply can afford to have too much fun in life for them to "need" a partner, VS the people who don't really want a long term partner yet lack the means to have "fun" in life (so resort to settling easier than the well of men). Yeah, I was with one of those well off men and he left me. He wanted to climb mountains and cross country ski & cycle on multi-thousand dollar bikes and travel the world for his business, and he wanted a partner that would be happy being on their own most of the time (i.e. when he desired it, and would leave him alone the rest of the time). But, he didn't really leave me for those things. I knew him before we became romantic and he was not the happiest. He left me because he could not deal with intimacy and he needed to be in control. I wouldn't glorify the lifestyle that much. It kept him from ever growing up and ever having to take account for his relationships. Emotionally stunted and lonely at his core. Money often gives more options to run away then those of us who are forced to stay and deal with things. We simply have no choice. It is only ME. There is no we.
bubbaganoosh Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 I know we all like to pretend this doesn't matter, but in reality I think people end up with others in the same social class because of the familiarity. What do you guys think? I put up online dating profile a couple months ago but I haven't really seen anyone I wanted to meet in real life until a couple weeks ago. A lawyer messaged me and he's surprisingly witty, down to earth, etc. I come from a middle class family and more of a jeans and t-shirt kind of girl. I feel like we click so well online, but I can't imagine us meshing in real life because of our different social classes. I don't wear name brand clothing and don't have a desire to even if I were rich. I can't imagine me fitting into any of his friend groups or vice versa. I guess I'm just asking if this is worth pursuing or should I give up while I'm ahead? He might have to wear a suit to work but I'll bet the house that he doesn't wear it at home. For all you know he might like the jeans and T shirt thing and wears them himself. Right now I think your putting the cart before the horse. Although when I was in high school I met a girl at the burger joint where we all hung out (1960's) and when I asked her out she told me she cant because I came from the great unwashed middle class and she was one of "tham thare high class gurls" who farts perfume and craps gold bouillon so I asked her why she's feeding her face on a greasy burger rather than caviar. Needless to say it didn't go over well. Told her to shove her status sideways.
Hopeful30 Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Sometimes he does make comments, like "you are like this because you had the opportunity to have two parents who care about you." And sometimes he makes comments around feeling "inferior." YES!!! Or things like "Well when you have money life is easier" in other words. I hate this. I HATE this. Time and time again I always tell every man, "Don't you DARE resent me because I have money. It's not all I care about and if you can't see that, then perhaps we would be better off dating other people." People assume that having money means your life is perfect. It's not. Yes, it makes life easier in many respects, but I've dumped men because they make it clear how "inferior" they feel to me, and I can't stand comments that refer to the fact that "you're better because you come from money". To me that just sounds like an excuse for why he can't work himself up to me of the same social class (and I don't care what anyone says, you CAN! My dad was broke ass and has zero, and now we are high class, it's called smarts and HARD WORK, not excuses). So I definitely feel you. But don't feel obligated to take that criticism. Oftentimes people with money feel like they can't argue those points because, well, we would feel bad. DON'T! Either he accepts you with this social class difference, or he finds someone that doesn't make him feel inferior. I'm sorry but no woman or man should ever tolerate such comments. They really piss me off.
salparadise Posted January 21, 2014 Posted January 21, 2014 Or things like "Well when you have money life is easier" in other words. I hate this. I HATE this. Time and time again I always tell every man, "Don't you DARE resent me because I have money. It's not all I care about and if you can't see that, then perhaps we would be better off dating other people." People assume that having money means your life is perfect. It's not. Yes, it makes life easier in many respects, but I've dumped men because they make it clear how "inferior" they feel to me, and I can't stand comments that refer to the fact that "you're better because you come from money". To me that just sounds like an excuse for why he can't work himself up to me of the same social class (and I don't care what anyone says, you CAN! My dad was broke ass and has zero, and now we are high class, it's called smarts and HARD WORK, not excuses). [...] I'm sorry but no woman or man should ever tolerate such comments. They really piss me off. Thank you for posting this. There is nothing like an actual demonstration of entitlement, arrogance and presumed virtue to help people understand why many wealthy people are insufferable.
GirlontheLam Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 So I definitely feel you. But don't feel obligated to take that criticism. Oftentimes people with money feel like they can't argue those points because, well, we would feel bad. DON'T! Either he accepts you with this social class difference, or he finds someone that doesn't make him feel inferior. I'm sorry but no woman or man should ever tolerate such comments. They really piss me off. In this case, they really are just comments in the context, and not criticisms. I've also been on side where someone was critical (and then ended things quickly). But there can be a very big bridge to cross, if particularly the male end of the hetero relationship doesn't feel like he can "take care" of his significant other financially. Only time will tell if there is a "fit." This can lead to insecurity that may not be possible to overcome. The class differences can mean very big differences in perspective, especially when the differences don't adhere to typical power roles in relationships. 1
soccerrprp Posted January 22, 2014 Posted January 22, 2014 Thank you for posting this. There is nothing like an actual demonstration of entitlement, arrogance and presumed virtue to help people understand why many wealthy people are insufferable. I love it when the haves make it sound so simplistic. As if smarts and hardwork is or was ever enough. Anyway, would love to be born into a family with money, would make my life SO much easier than everyone else's....
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