Confusion_Reigns Posted January 17, 2014 Posted January 17, 2014 I like to read here just because it helps me keep my feet on the ground and gives me a different perspective to my own situation. I hate to read the sorrows but it does help me, so thank you to those who have shared their stories, your sharing is helping at least one person, me! Anyway, I was reading here yesterday, the thread “It’s raining MM!” and of course I can relate. I’m one to think that all men want to bang just about all women, depending on the circumstances they may find themselves in….but that’s not the topic of this post. As I was reading I saw someone post about the typical predatory MM or OM as the case may be…that these type look for vulnerable women to prey on. It got me wondering about my friend…Mr. Amazing…and if he’s doing that to me. Of course this thought has crossed my mind before as I’m very distrustful of men in general. So I started googling “Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing Psychology” …anyway, I had fully expected to begin reading about my friend, I expected to see him in what I read. I was pleasantly pleased to not see him in any of the 4-6 articles I read…very pleased to be honest. He’s been strait with me from the get go. Some of the things he’s said seem a bit, well, a bit cheesy, lol, but sweet anyway. Do you know who I saw in this article? My husband. He’s the one who is the wolf in sheep’s clothing. That has shaken me a bit, way deep down inside. Not turned my world on end…because…well, I guess after a while these types of things just don’t rock my world in a good or bad way. Everything I read was pretty eye opening for me. Years of this with him. He’s changed his tactics when the old ones stopped working one me. I kinda get why I am so freaking confused with him, his actions, words, etc. Why I feel like I’m the crazy one…the cold one…and why I sometimes feel like I’m such a horrible person…and why my close friends/family say I’m a good person, kind, caring, supportive but I don’t feel like this person they see…If I am to believe what I’ve read…and why I have asked the question of “can an abuser be an abuser and not know they are an abuser?” It’s also why my acquaintances see him as such a wonderful man and comment on how lucky I am to have him in my life. They have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. I also think that this might be why I feel so paralyzed to effect real change in this area of my life. I’m not sure how to explain this…but I’ll try…he’s a great guy mostly always wonderful...unless he’s not. When he’s not a great guy he scares me, makes me angry, and something even uglier than those two feelings combined. I never really know who I’m dealing with at any given moment. One min he’s great, then something happens, and he’s a scary *******. He is an ‘emotional manipulator’ and I feel badly for him. When I’ve truly had enough and am about to really walk….something happens, usally right after an argument where he knows full and well that I am mentally packing….he hurts himself, he gets sick (and he gets really sick sometimes)….something where…well, I’m not a heartless bitch who’s going to be so callous as to kick a man who truly loves me, who does everything for me, while he’s down. How could I? Omg, I feel a fool. If I am to believe what I’ve read…it’s typical. I am a kind caring person with a very large heart. I am this person who….omg….I feel more pity than love for him. More sympathy than desire. Why…. We’ve had physical fights in the past…well, he’s hit me and I’ve tried to defend myself from those blows…I can’t. It’s too hard and he’s too strong for me. But that was years ago. I grew a pair and told him no more. I meant it with every fiber of my being. He knew it and it’s never happened like that again. Since then he’s only pushed me, into walls, into the bathroom tub, out the door…now he scares me in other ways. When he’s really angry I will not get into the car with him. I’m afraid he’s going to kill us both. I’d rather walk a hundred miles than drive one mile with him when he’s angry. He knows this too. I’ve refused to get into the car with him on more than one occasion. He gets very angry but it is what it is. I simply will not do it. He used to threaten to leave me all the time. All the time. Sometimes he’d leave for hours, for a whole day…sometimes he’d leave and come right back…I used to beg him not to leave, crying and stuff. Then I got sick of that too. I stopped crying and begging and told him to just go then. None of that works on me anymore. I will not tolerate him hitting me…and anymore I will not tolerate him pushing me either….I won’t get into the car with him to scare the crap outta me, I don’t really care if he leaves and have told him as much. Thankfully he’s never done anything bad like that towards our children. They have experienced more than they should have but not as much as some children. Anyway its not good for them, I know this…but at the sametime my kids are healthy, happy, and thriving….they’ve had two loving parents who have put them first in life…and maybe that’s all just justification on my part…regardless there’s no going back to do things differently at this point. The tension is sometimes unbearable…I have learned to not react to that tension, to go about my business and try very hard to not let it set the tone of the house…sometimes it works and but mostly not. Mostly I know that no matter what when the bedroom door closes and I’m all alone with him…that’s when the real drama starts…and I hate it. Everytime. I hate this part of it. I’ve put my foot down in this regard to...and don’t let him bully me into whatever. He hates that...the last time he tried I got up and stared getting dressed at 2am & told him I was leaving...he then told me he'd throw my brother out of the house if I left...(my brother lives with us, it's an accepted cultural norm in my community)... I think he knows and understands that I am leaving him, very slowly and deliberately I am walking away from him. I have an apt with an IC in a couple weeks, I’ve told him this. I’d like him to go to an IC himself…but for himself not to save the marriage because I don’t think there’s anything that can save this sinking ship…I am a little bit afraid of what’s going to happen. I’ve read that this is the most dangerous time for me and for him. I worry that he’s going to up the ante in such a way as I won’t be able to refuse. I don’t know how, I don’t know what…I’m trying to prepare myself for this onslaught that’s coming…but it’s hard to do that if I have no idea what to expect. I think the IC can help me a bit with that. I don’t even really know what my questions are…has anyone gone thru this? Does anyone recognize this? Did anyone survive this? How so? How hard was it on the kids? Even if they’re teens (19 girl and 16 boy)? And just some words of encouragement would be good to hear. That I can do this and I will be ok…that my kids will be ok…that he will be ok,too…..
Downtown Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 So I started googling “Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing Psychology.”CR, I suspect you might learn more by Googling the warning signs for "BPD" (Borderline Personality Disorder). The behaviors you describe -- i.e., always being "The Victim" (blaming you for everything), verbal and physical abuse, low self esteem, very controlling behavior, rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you), and lack of impulse control (e.g., dangerous driving) -- are classic symptoms for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Of course, you cannot diagnose your H, i.e., cannot determine whether he "has BPD." That is, you cannot determine whether his BPD traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can make a diagnosis. I therefore recommend you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your two children are dealing with. There is a world of difference, however, between making a diagnosis (which is very difficult) and simply spotting the warning signs for a disorder (which is not difficult). You are capable of spotting the red flags for BPD -- if you take time to learn what to look for -- because there is nothing subtle about strong occurrences of traits such as verbal abuse, always being "The Victim" and the push-away/pull-back cycle. CR, I caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the BPD traits -- albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has the traits to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your H exhibits these traits. Of course he does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits most of these BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met him, I cannot know whether his BPD traits are normal, moderate, or strong. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any strong red flags that exist if you take time to learn the warning signs. Most women know, for example, how to spot the warning signs for breast cancer -- without being able to diagnose it. Similarly, most men over 60 know the warning signs for heart attack and stroke -- without being able to diagnose either of those diseases. Likewise, you are capable of spotting the warning signs for BPD -- without being able to diagnose it -- if you take a little time to learn what to look for. We’ve had physical fights in the past…well, he’s hit me and I’ve tried to defend myself from those blows…I can’t.... Since then he’s only pushed me, into walls, into the bathroom tub, out the door…now he scares me in other ways. When he’s really angry I will not get into the car with him. I’m afraid he’s going to kill us both. The physical battering of a spouse is STRONGLY associated with BPD. In 1993, that link was clarified by a team of researchers, headed by Donald Dutton, at the Univ. of British Columbia. They studied the personality characteristics of battering men. They found that 90-100% of men who physically assault their spouses exhibited symptoms of what are clinically known as "personality disorders." They also found that about half of these male batterers had full-blown BPD. See Roger Melton's overview of their results at Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net. My acquaintances see him as such a wonderful man and comment on how lucky I am to have him in my life. They have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. This split behavior is to be expected if your H has strong BPD traits. The vast majority of BPDers (those having strong traits) are "high functioning," which means they interact very well with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. The reason is that NONE of those folks poses a risk to the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment. This is why you will see BPDers being kind and generous all day long to complete strangers or casual friends -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him. In his mind it’s always someone else’s fault…heaven knows he can’t be at fault…it’ll be my fault…[Your 3/11 post]One of the hallmarks of BPDers is their refusal to accept responsibility for their own mistakes, flaws, and bad choices. The primary reason is that a BPDer is filled with so much self loathing and shame that the last thing he wants to find is one more item to add to the long list of things he hates about himself. His subconscious therefore protects his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting all the mistakes and hurtful feelings onto the spouse. Because this projection is done entirely at the subconscious level, the BPDer consciously is convinced it is absolutely true. And, a week later when he is believing the exact opposite, he will be absolutely convinced about that outrageous claim too. He’s a great guy mostly always wonderful...unless he’s not. When he’s not a great guy he scares me....Most BPDers are "great" people. Their problem is not being bad but, rather, being unstable. Because the vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, you likely will never see that unstable, dark side unless you make the mistake of trying to draw close to that person -- at which point you will start triggering his two great fears. Indeed, many BPDers are "mostly always wonderful," as you say. Two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD, if their biographers are correct. I never really know who I’m dealing with at any given moment. One min he’s great, then something happens, and he’s a scary *******.A common complaint of abused spouses in a BPDer relationship is that they feel like they're living with a person who is half-way to having a multiple personality disorder (now called Dissociative Identity Disorder). This feeling arises from the BPDer's ability to flip -- in just ten seconds -- from Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing you) based solely on some minor thing you say or do that triggers his anger. This rapid flip primarily occurs because a BPDer never learned how to integrate the good and bad aspects of his personality. He therefore is very intolerant of experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. The result is that he will tend to shoehorn everyone into a white box ("with me") or black box ("against me"). And, in ten seconds, a BPDer will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other based solely on a minor comment or infraction. He is an ‘emotional manipulator’ and I feel badly for him.Perhaps so. But if he is very skillful at manipulation, you are describing a narcissistic or sociopathic trait. Granted, because BPDers generally fear abandonment, they will be very controlling -- even to the point of trying to manipulate their spouses. Yet, because BPDers are impulsive and unable to control their emotions very well, they tend to be far to reactive to current events to be any good at manipulation. To be good at it, careful scheming and plotting are not sufficient. A person also has to have flawless execution, a skill that BPDers usually lack because they are so reactive to whatever statement just came out of your mouth. When I’ve truly had enough and am about to really walk….he hurts himself, he gets sick (and he gets really sick sometimes)....It is common for BPDers to experience fibromyalgia, i.e., pain that travels all over their body -- sometimes being here and sometimes there. And, because BPDers are convinced they are always "The Victim," it is common for many of them to exhibit hypochondria. I’m trying to prepare myself for this onslaught that’s coming…but it’s hard to do that if I have no idea what to expect. I think the IC can help me a bit with that. If your H really does have strong BPD traits, the divorce likely will get nasty and vindictive very quickly. After all, he is "The Victim," always "The Victim." I therefore suggest again that you see a clinical psychologist to find out what you're dealing with. I also suggest, while your waiting for an appointment, you read my overview of BPD warning signs in Rebel's Thread. If most of those red flags sound very familiar, I would be glad to discuss them with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, CR. 3
Author Confusion_Reigns Posted March 13, 2014 Author Posted March 13, 2014 Thank you! I've been very busy today with work and such but I've been kinda reading on the links you've provided. Very informational...and really sad, too. Heartbreaking as I see him and I see me in these articles. I wouldn't say completely but enough to believe that this is part of the over all problem. Our problems. Right now I'm so done with the whole thing. I've been done with it for a long time. He's getting it and the **** is starting...fluctuation between him hating me loving me fearing me idolizing me....hating me.... The real end started a few years ago...when I realized for the first time let myself really hold on to the thought..."There is NOTHING I can do..." to please him, nothing is ever good enough...nothing. AND this gets me so f'ing angry...when my words/actions are twisted around to the point that I really don't know what the hell he's talking about. ...I'm afraid....I hate being afraid but I am...and I don't know what to do with this fear....I don't know how to proceed with this at all....If it was just me I would just walk away. But its not just me. Its my kids and our family (extended) and him...yes, I feel afraid of him and for him at the same time....and that's just insane, right? I pity him and despise him. But I love him too...and that hurts because after all this **** I can't really see how or why I love him....after all these years...I just don't really have any good answer as to why I stayed with him....except for the kids....for them I'd do anything....and sometimes...I think that maybe I am rewriting history just a wee bit...and making it all worse than it really is.... I'm crazy. That's all there is too it. Crazy insane....and that's my own pity-party talking... I'm going to continue reading up on this...idk if this is really the issue with us with him...but it's another source of info for me to think on... 1
Downtown Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 I feel afraid of him and for him at the same time....and that's just insane, right?Wrong. IMO, it likely is a sign of mental health, i.e., that your personality is sufficiently well integrated you are able to tolerate experiencing strong mixed feelings. All healthy adults are able to do so. BPDers, in contrast, have such weak egos that they cannot tolerate the experience of consciously being in touch with two strong conflicting feelings at the same time. They therefore "split off" one of the conflicting feelings, putting it out of touch of their conscious minds. I'm crazy. That's all there is too it. Crazy insane.Perhaps so. Yet, if you've been living for 20 years with a man having strong BPD traits, "crazy" is exactly how you should be feeling. Of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused spouses feel like they may be losing their minds. It is very disorienting and confusing to live with a person who can flip, in seconds, from adoring you to devaluing you -- and then flip back again just as quickly. Many of the abused spouses will drive themselves crazy with the mistaken notion that, if only they can figure out what THEY are doing wrong, their BPDer spouse will once again become that wonderful human being they saw at the beginning. The result is that therapists typically see far more abused spouses (coming in to find out if they are going crazy) than they ever see of the BPDers themselves. 2
trippi1432 Posted March 14, 2014 Posted March 14, 2014 I don’t even really know what my questions are…has anyone gone thru this? Does anyone recognize this? Did anyone survive this? How so? How hard was it on the kids? Even if they’re teens (19 girl and 16 boy)? And just some words of encouragement would be good to hear. That I can do this and I will be ok…that my kids will be ok…that he will be ok,too….. Yes, I recognize it very well. You just reiterated 15 years of my life. Yes, you survive it...if you stop condoning it. I started holding my exH accountable for his actions...once he couldn't control my emotions anymore, he moved to a new victim and left. Oh...and yes, this type of person will pull you down and the end is never easy with them...you have to remember, they never did anything wrong. CR, I suspect you might learn more by Googling the warning signs for "BPD" (Borderline Personality Disorder). The behaviors you describe -- i.e., always being "The Victim" (blaming you for everything), verbal and physical abuse, low self esteem, very controlling behavior, rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you), and lack of impulse control (e.g., dangerous driving) -- are classic symptoms for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Of course, you cannot diagnose your H, i.e., cannot determine whether he "has BPD." A common complaint of abused spouses in a BPDer relationship is that they feel like they're living with a person who is half-way to having a multiple personality disorder (now called Dissociative Identity Disorder). This feeling arises from the BPDer's ability to flip -- in just ten seconds -- from Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing you) based solely on some minor thing you say or do that triggers his anger. This rapid flip primarily occurs because a BPDer never learned how to integrate the good and bad aspects of his personality. He therefore is very intolerant of experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, or other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. The result is that he will tend to shoehorn everyone into a white box ("with me") or black box ("against me"). And, in ten seconds, a BPDer will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other based solely on a minor comment or infraction. Perhaps so. But if he is very skillful at manipulation, you are describing a narcissistic or sociopathic trait. Granted, because BPDers generally fear abandonment, they will be very controlling -- even to the point of trying to manipulate their spouses. Yet, because BPDers are impulsive and unable to control their emotions very well, they tend to be far to reactive to current events to be any good at manipulation. To be good at it, careful scheming and plotting are not sufficient. A person also has to have flawless execution, a skill that BPDers usually lack because they are so reactive to whatever statement just came out of your mouth. It is common for BPDers to experience fibromyalgia, i.e., pain that travels all over their body -- sometimes being here and sometimes there. And, because BPDers are convinced they are always "The Victim," it is common for many of them to exhibit hypochondria. To a "T"....Actually Downtown, that bolded part struck me as my exH called me after our divorce and energetically exclaimed that he knew what was wrong with him for all those years...it wasn't me. He had fibromyalgia....I still think I should be relieved somewhat as he was....but he isn't my problem anymore. And everything here that you said Downtown.....understand it completely. Perhaps so. Yet, if you've been living for 20 years with a man having strong BPD traits, "crazy" is exactly how you should be feeling. Of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused spouses feel like they may be losing their minds. It is very disorienting and confusing to live with a person who can flip, in seconds, from adoring you to devaluing you -- and then flip back again just as quickly. Many of the abused spouses will drive themselves crazy with the mistaken notion that, if only they can figure out what THEY are doing wrong, their BPDer spouse will once again become that wonderful human being they saw at the beginning. The result is that therapists typically see far more abused spouses (coming in to find out if they are going crazy) than they ever see of the BPDers themselves. I was one of those spouses and I was the one labeled BPD. Obviously my shrink didn't hit his spiked hookah that morning (never could pronounce his last name of 45 characters so we just called him Dr. T.) I came out of 15 years of being blamed for EVERYTHING that ever went wrong. Kid you not, I got a phone call one day of my exH screaming at me over the phone at work because our son's bus was late on the first day of school. Not just his frustration but of why I couldn't plan things accordingly so he would not be inconvenienced because I should know how this makes him upset. I went to a counselor because I did feel like I was going crazy...My exH would never go to a counselor. He went twice in 15 years for a one time visit. He did go to our son's counselor after he left. It was a 10 minute visit where the counselor meets and greets the parents to understand the concerns. The next week when I saw her privately, she apologized for what our family had been through....she said it only took 10 minutes with him to see the issues. Me?? I was like..what, it's not ALL me?? No...it wasn't all me as I was led to believe for 15 years. So I started googling “Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing Psychology” …anyway, I had fully expected to begin reading about my friend, I expected to see him in what I read. I was pleasantly pleased to not see him in any of the 4-6 articles I read…very pleased to be honest. He’s been strait with me from the get go. Some of the things he’s said seem a bit, well, a bit cheesy, lol, but sweet anyway. Do you know who I saw in this article? My husband. He’s the one who is the wolf in sheep’s clothing. That has shaken me a bit, way deep down inside. Not turned my world on end…because…well, I guess after a while these types of things just don’t rock my world in a good or bad way. Now I do want to ask here, this "friend" that you speak of, if it's someone on the side, please be sure that what you have stated here is not you painting your husband black due to affair fog. It's as strong as BPD, but if addressed, not as daunting as affecting you for the rest of your life. The things you have stated...yes, it would be time to get out and live for you. It won't be easy if you are the one to leave....I think I always knew that in a way and knew he would haunt me. Make him accountable...he'll leave soon enough with his own person on the side. BPD, Sociopath's and NPD people need a steady supply, they don't know how to be alone and enjoy their own company. I do wish I had left so I might have had some of my sanity intact....the only thing I ever needed was my family and my kids (my family stood behind me and so did my daughter)...it's taken several years for my son to move to a healthier environment, he was the youngest one. 4
Author Confusion_Reigns Posted March 17, 2014 Author Posted March 17, 2014 I started holding my exH accountable for his actions...once he couldn't control my emotions anymore, he moved to a new victim and left. Oh...and yes, this type of person will pull you down and the end is never easy with them... Long story short this is what scares me. When I don’t ‘comply’ things get bad…for everyone. It’s in this time that I fear for myself. It’s this part that concerns me and I don’t know if I have the stamina to overcome. If it was just me I’d just leave and LIMIT all contact with him. But it’s not just me. I think about my kids, my brother (who lives with us), my cat (silly as it sounds I love that lil guy), and him….I do fear for him too. After this part is done then I’m sure I’ll be good. Ok. I think. Something I thought of this morning “We’re going to have to tear it all down, to rock bottom…then build it all up again from scratch.” I think that’s the only way we could even have a shot at a chance of this working for both of us….and I honestly don’t know if I’m willing to try with him anymore. Idk if he’d want to try with me…in this way…either. Now I do want to ask here, this "friend" that you speak of, if it's someone on the side, please be sure that what you have stated here is not you painting your husband black due to affair fog. It's as strong as BPD, but if addressed, not as daunting as affecting you for the rest of your life. All the things I’ve stated on here are true. My friend and I have been talking for about a year. My original plan was to leave my husband when our son turned 18 yrs old. Just so my son is a legal adult and can do/go where he pleases. I met my friend and we started talking. I am seriously contemplating pushing my leave date up a year, for him. So I can have a chance at a real relationship with him. He’s a very nice man. Something I’m really not used to, I can really talk to him. I don't know if he and I will ever be more than friends but this friendship has clearly shown me why I need to **** or get off the pot. What if another wonderful man walks in and out of my life? In a perfect world I would be married to my husband forever. We would be able to communicate and we’d both feel good after the communications…even if the talks are hard subjects they’d bring us closer together. We’d travel to new places and see new things, all the while exploring and experiencing and laughing…that would be wonderful. But it’s not reality. If my husband has some sort of BPD then he’s got to get that addressed FOR HIM…and that sounds like a lifelong process that is going to take me down further and further to the bottom, to my bottom. I just honestly don’t know how much further down I can go. However, anyway I look at it…H’s issues are things I can no longer help him with…I can’t and I can’t….he doesn’t listen to me anyway…he's got to want to get help for himself. He agreed to go to MC but wouldn't make any apts. He's kinda agreeable to go to IC but won't make any apts. I've bought book after book and he won't read any of them....I told him about websites (marriage builders, etc) and he says he'll look but he hasn't...if he has he's not hearing/listening to anything he's read....I'm at my wits end with him. Have been for a while... 1
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