veggirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 In my professional loveshack therapist opinion, she was too much of a coward to tell him to his face, so she played helpless. haha, perhaps but even the most timid can OFFER. I'm a wuss, I'm a peace-maker, and even I would say "oh I got mine covered"...ffs I'd say it (and mean it) even if I *did* like the guy. I mean I get not shoving your wallet at the waiter just to prove a point, but if you aren't interested, at least offer! That doesn't take any courage.
Keenly Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 haha, perhaps but even the most timid can OFFER. I'm a wuss, I'm a peace-maker, and even I would say "oh I got mine covered"...ffs I'd say it (and mean it) even if I *did* like the guy. I mean I get not shoving your wallet at the waiter just to prove a point, but if you aren't interested, at least offer! That doesn't take any courage. ..... really ? I always viewed you as a strong woman. Or maybe your like me and your just not afraid of LS at all, and slightly different IRL
edgygirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 That's why I avoid going out with guys who are on the cheap side... I am no gold digger (at all!) but if the guy makes such a fuss about a $10 drink, he should not be dating at all, or at least not taking girls out. Sorry but that's my honest opinion.
veggirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 ..... really ? I always viewed you as a strong woman. Or maybe your like me and your just not afraid of LS at all, and slightly different IRL I think I'm strong, but I'm not aggressive. That's what I mean by "wuss"--not in your face. I prefer calm & peace, so Im not gonna argue with someone about the bill, but I still don't have a problem with genuinely offering my portion up. I'd say okay if a guy refused (I wouldn't push the subject) and I'd say okay if he accepted (I wouldn't think less of him for it).
veggirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 That's why I avoid going out with guys who are on the cheap side... I am no gold digger (at all!) but if the guy makes such a fuss about a $10 drink, he should not be dating at all, or at least not taking girls out. Sorry but that's my honest opinion. And...is this not you making a fuss over a $10 drink? This is what I don't get. Women can say "ugh god, it's $10 just PAY IT and don't make a fuss" but that IS making a fuss! who the fk CARES who pays the $10?? Is it a big deal if you offer to and he accepts that? I mean if you are having a great time with a guy and he lets you pay for your own drink, are you seriously turned off? Imo that means you were never turned on. 3
InnocentMan Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Twelve bucks for a Martini? Where was the date? An airport? I live with the philosophy of buying a date one drink only, and if she doesn't at least offer to buy the next, or agree to split the tab, then I kinda lose interest. It doesn't mean I'll let her split the tab, or get the next round, but it gives an insight to her attitude. The only exception I ever made to this rule was in a friend zone situation, and couldn't let it go until I got with her. But, she was out of my league, so all normal regulations had to be suspended. Luckily, for my wallet, it only took six months, and a few dozen bottles of cheap champers, lol. Good times.
edgygirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 (edited) I'll be honest - when I first moved to the US and didn't understand the dating etiquette here I thought it was really weird that men insisted in paying for everything. Now, 10 years later, I understand that this is just the way dating etiquette works here. And I do get (emotionally) offended when a guy is cheap about a $10 drink. Like you said in a former post, it's not about the money quantity, it's about the principle behind it (but reversed). Whenever a guy didn't offer to get the check on dates I went to, he was either: penniless (starving artist kind), rude, cheap or had poor etiquette in general. Why would I want to date a man like that? Mind you, I make by myself almost double most multi-person families in the US, I obviously don't need anyone to pay anything to me, and still, I do find it offensive when a man complains about a $10 drink. Who knows, maybe it's biology. I do not want to date a loser although I am no gold digger. I understand some women feel differently. But it's ingrained on how I view relationships now. ps: I am saying all this, but I ALWAYS offer to help. It does change my concept of the guy though if he accepts to go dutch. I am not 20 anymore and looking for someone who can at least pay for a drink! In my 20s I wouldn't mind as no one has much money. But now, I'd pass. And...is this not you making a fuss over a $10 drink? This is what I don't get. Women can say "ugh god, it's $10 just PAY IT and don't make a fuss" but that IS making a fuss! who the fk CARES who pays the $10?? Is it a big deal if you offer to and he accepts that? I mean if you are having a great time with a guy and he lets you pay for your own drink, are you seriously turned off? Imo that means you were never turned on. Edited January 11, 2014 by edgygirl
edgygirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 In NYC they always cost US$12-14, at least. Twelve bucks for a Martini? Where was the date? An airport?
anna121 Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I agree that she shouldn't EXPECT you to pay. But you can't have expectations of what SHE's going to do either. Next time, four words: "Shall we split this?" Don't pay b/c it's awkward and then gripe about it afterward.
veggirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I'll be honest - when I first moved to the US and didn't understand the dating etiquette here I thought it was really weird that men insisted in paying for everything. Now, 10 years later, I understand that this is just the way dating etiquette works here. And I do get (emotionally) offended when a guy is cheap about a $10 drink. Like you said in a former post, it's not about the money quantity, it's about the principle behind it (but reversed). Whenever a guy didn't offer to get the check on dates I went to, he was either: penniless (starving artist kind), rude, cheap or had poor etiquette in general. Why would I want to date a man like that? Mind you, I make by myself almost double most multi-person families in the US, I obviously don't need anyone to pay anything to me, and still, I do find it offensive when a man complains about a $10 drink. Who knows, maybe it's biology. I do not want to date a loser although I am no gold digger. I understand some women feel differently. But it's ingrained on how I view relationships now. Hmmm.. Another thing I've noticed. Typically the women who make a big deal about the guy paying are the women who make a lot of money. I have VERY little expendable income at the moment (meaning at least a couple years on each end, I'm expecting), and could not care less who pays. I don't get it. Money means more to those who have a lot of it, I guess? My bf makes 3x what I do and I still wouldn't feel comfortable with him paying all the time.
OpheliaSong Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Not this bs again...geez. Just don't pay if you don't want to. What is so hard about not doing something you don't want to do? Ugh! 2
edgygirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I am talking about first-second date only. In a relationship, I don't expect a guy to pay for all dates, that would be kind of a chutzpah - unless the guy has tons of money and can afford it with no problem and insists on it. But in the first dates, I want to feel like a "woman", I want to be pursued and feel taken care of. I feel that's how a guy shows if he's marriage material. It shows if he will take care of me if needed, and I am NOT talking money-wise. From my experience, guys who are cheap with money, are cheap with love, affection, being there for us. I swear these feelings I have on how things should be are biologic and evolution related. Hmmm.. Another thing I've noticed. Typically the women who make a big deal about the guy paying are the women who make a lot of money. I have VERY little expendable income at the moment (meaning at least a couple years on each end, I'm expecting), and could not care less who pays. I don't get it. Money means more to those who have a lot of it, I guess? My bf makes 3x what I do and I still wouldn't feel comfortable with him paying all the time. 1
InnocentMan Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 In NYC they always cost US$12-14, at least. Wow. I wouldn't even take a wife out at those prices, let alone a random woman I didn't know. A Martini here only costs about £3, about $5, and most of that is tax. You can get a bottle for around $20.
InnocentMan Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I am talking about first-second date only. In a relationship, I don't expect a guy to pay for all dates, that would be kind of a chutzpah - unless the guy has tons of money and can afford it with no problem and insists on it. But in the first dates, I want to feel like a "woman", I want to be pursued and feel taken care of. I feel that's how a guy shows if he's marriage material. It shows if he will take care of me if needed, and I am NOT talking money-wise. From my experience, guys who are cheap with money, are cheap with love, affection, being there for us. I swear these feelings I have on how things should be are biologic and evolution related. There's a big difference to being cheap with money, and actually not being rich enough to waste on people who are less than honest with you. This gal would have known after 10 minutes, probably, that it wasn't going to go anywhere. She should have done the decent thing, and split the bill. It's a different game if she planned to see him again.
edgygirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 As a woman, I don't see it this way. I think it's rude for a guy to think that if he is not interested, or the girl is not interested, "no need to pay". What, is he buying her? Not wanting to pay if there's not interest sounds like that. You ask a girl out? You pay. If she asked you out, she'd pay I guess. I think it has to do a lot on WHERE the date is - city / country. Each place has their rules. In NYC, the dating etiquette is that men pay for a drink, it doesn't matter if there's interest or not. I was recently in South America where men don't pay (there is no "dating culture to meet someone" there), and I am so used to here that it was awkward that men there would let you pick your own drink. See? I got used to the way things are here. So I guess - find out what the culture is in your location, and do that. There's a big difference to being cheap with money, and actually not being rich enough to waste on people who are less than honest with you. This gal would have known after 10 minutes, probably, that it wasn't going to go anywhere. She should have done the decent thing, and split the bill. It's a different game if she planned to see him again.
InnocentMan Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 As a woman, I don't see it this way. I think it's rude for a guy to think that if he is not interested, or the girl is not interested, "no need to pay". What, is he buying her? Not wanting to pay if there's not interest sounds like that. You ask a girl out? You pay. If she asked you out, she'd pay I guess. I think it has to do a lot on WHERE the date is - city / country. Each place has their rules. In NYC, the dating etiquette is that men pay for a drink, it doesn't matter if there's interest or not. I was recently in South America where men don't pay (there is no "dating culture to meet someone" there), and I am so used to here that it was awkward that men there would let you pick your own drink. See? I got used to the way things are here. So I guess - find out what the culture is in your location, and do that. You may have a slight point about the location, but human decency is surely universal? This guy is already going to be gutted that she doesn't want to see him again, so she could at least offer to pay half. If he's a decent guy, he will probably refuse, but he will remember that she at least offered. It's not about 'buying' anyone, or feeling that she owes him something. Would this girl have the front to tell him that there wouldn't be a second date, before the bill arrived? She didn't, so it involved a small level of deceit. She's within her rights to say nothing at the time, just like the guy has a right to feel slightly pissed about it. It wouldn't bother me personally, but then again, I wouldn't be in that scenario. The date would have been over after the first drink. Maybe the fact that she didn't order a second Martini, should have been a sign for him. 1
edgygirl Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I don't see it as deceit AT ALL. The guy invited, he should pay. That's how dating works. I've been on dates where it was clear for both that there was no chemistry. The guys insisted on getting the tab. That's how it works here. But she should offer to help, always. I do. But a decent guy will refuse the offer. People who can't afford dating at a bar, should not accept a date at a bar. (as OP did and then is now complaining about). If you can only afford a coffee date, only go to coffee dates. If you can't afford coffee dates, offer a park date. A man should never expect to go dutch. The world doesn't work like that. Sorry. Okay I'm out of this thread as I'm repeating myself. You may have a slight point about the location, but human decency is surely universal? This guy is already going to be gutted that she doesn't want to see him again, so she could at least offer to pay half. If he's a decent guy, he will probably refuse, but he will remember that she at least offered. It's not about 'buying' anyone, or feeling that she owes him something. Would this girl have the front to tell him that there wouldn't be a second date, before the bill arrived? She didn't, so it involved a small level of deceit. She's within her rights to say nothing at the time, just like the guy has a right to feel slightly pissed about it. It wouldn't bother me personally, but then again, I wouldn't be in that scenario. The date would have been over after the first drink. Maybe the fact that she didn't order a second Martini, should have been a sign for him.
InnocentMan Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 You may be repeating yourself, but you're still doing it wrong. If you had read the thread, you would know that the guy suggested a coffee date, and it was in fact, the girl that suggested a bar. Does that change the dynamic? Or will your theory change to suit? All I'm saying, is an offer to split goes a long way. It's a common courtesy, no matter where you are, or who suggested the date/meeting place. In my opinion, letting a guy pay everything implies a possible second date. An offer to share the cost, removes any feelings of resentment. 1
lollipopspot Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 If you think about it, even if you had this exact scenario a couple of times a month, it would only cost a couple hundred dollars in a year. That's not that much. I'd just let it go. Overthinking relatively small sums of money and how it's been wasted - like, you get a take-home meal and it's spoiled, you buy something at the grocery and it's spoiled, you buy a clothing item and get it home and it doesn't fit like you thought it did and can't be returned - is a recipe for misery. We all lose money sometimes. I've had LARGE amounts of money stolen from me by relatives, and that hurts. But if you're not hurting for basic necessities, then the little crap - just let it go. Pay for drinks and let it go. Or have the fortitude to insist to your dates that you don't pay for drinks. Make a decision. Life is too short to worry too much about losing $12 every now and then. 2
Eau Claire Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I would not date a man who was not financially responsible. Anyone who is obsessed with 12 dollars might want to get their life in order before dating. I have more than that in loose change in my coat pockets. If money is an issue and you want to split a tab on a date, then mention that necessity to a woman when you ask her out. It is fair to let her judge whether or not she she wants to go for a drink. However, my guess is that 98% of women would role their eyes and come up with an excuse to politely decline.
lollipopspot Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Maybe next time find a way to insist on coffee. In my case I'd say I don't drink much and don't like the bar atmosphere (which is true). Bars are usually kind of noisy for conversation. You'd have to drink a lot of coffee to come up with $12 Anyway, there are super cheap ways to have meet-ups. Even meet at a nice park and don't buy anything. Say you just like the walk and talk. I'd go for that. I don't need someone to spend money on me at a first meeting.
ascendotum Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I would not date a man who was not financially responsible. Anyone who is obsessed with 12 dollars might want to get their life in order before dating. I have more than that in loose change in my coat pockets. Maybe he is financially responsible hence why he doesn't like paying for nothing (yes he got her company for an hour , but so did she with his company). Some of the women I used to work with in finance used to brag how much savvier they are with money than most guys, and at the same time brag about the thousands they saved on meals & drinks from guys over the years. lol. They were on good $ too. As veggirl said the ones who earn more expected to be treated more, and generally the guys they only went out with made good $ and knew the score and what other guys might do to impress her. Really though its only $16 and not worth making a fuss about (unless this happens to him too often). At the same time it was poor form from her to, switch his location then order an expensive drink and leave him with the bill, when she had no intention of seeing him more. As much as you might brand the OP as financially irresponsible, others can brand the woman as a moocher. 1
nomadic_butterfly Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 You sound like a bitter cheapskate. Ugh. So glad I barely date anymore but when I do it's not with cheapskates. If a measly $15-20 on drinks made you not sleep at night, you need to just be up front with women before you even go out and tell them you feel comfortable going dutch on the first date. Or meet up at a park. Simple. No surprises, no resentment, both parties are the same page. Personally, I don't go out with strangers on a whim usually. 99.9% of the time guys have paid on the first date but I try to take some time to get to know the person and have a few phone conversations and meet up about 1-2 weeks later. No need to waste anyone's times, efforts, money and decreases the likelihood of having no connection whatsoever (at least for discerning people like myself).
nomadic_butterfly Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I agree that if the woman doesn't see herself dating the man again, she should pay for her part. I also agree with other posters who say that if you don't want to pay for the first date, you need to make that clear, either up front or when the bill arrives. He should tell her before they even go out. The norm is the guy paying for the first date. It wasn't even that expensive if at all to be getting his panties in a bunch. If he pulled all the bells and whistles and dropped a cool $100/200 etc. for a series of events, then she it would be wrong to be spoiled. If she goes on a second date knowing from the 1st date nothing is there, that's wrong. Random men at bars will get you drinks just to even converse. In proper etiquette you may get them a round too although some refuse to accept it. It all depends. I sometimes pay for my friends when we go out; $20 is not enough for me to be harping about unless I worked part time at a fast food chain, on the brink of poverty; and in that case I shouldn't really be dating anyway b/c my priorities would be skewed.
nomadic_butterfly Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 I wouldn't either, and it is the principle. But since the OP seemed to really make it a point that he would send a message about "Next time pay for your $12 martini", he seemed really peeved about that price tag in particular. If for some reason a guy felt he should message me about the $12 he spent, I would ask for his address and mail him $20 and tell him to keep the change and put it towards his savings since apparently he's that hard-pressed. Hahahaha...I did that once!! Went out once with a guy at Nando's (a notch above KFC; finger lickin good nonetheless). He kept harassing me after. My meal came up to like $10-12. I was like give me your bank details so I can put in the $12 so you can STFU and stop harassing me. You'd of thought we went to a fancy 5 course restaurant. He divulged some illegal activities he was in towards the end of the date and that did it for me... 1
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