Am I insane for wanting to be wined and dined?

January 9, 2014

Your views on chivalry and definition of a gentleman are warped. Your expectation of the man paying for dinner drives the manipulation and punishment that if a man does not automatically pay the full bill, he is dismissed as being lazy, wretched, and inconsiderate, with no chance of future dates.

So the guy asking you out, chatting with you, trying to genuinely get to know you, share some laughs, trying to build rapport have no value to you? Him paying the full bill is the only indicator on his intentions for you?

A lot of men who are really interested will pay. A LOT of them. That is why it can be a bad sign when a guy doesn't pay for your first date.

The men I knew that were all really into their date, they paid for their first dinner together; if they were not broke, they paid for their other dinners out, too.

My own boyfriend isn't quiet THAT generous, but I think he would be if he had a well paid job, and he at least pays for most of our dinners our when we do dine out about once every week on average.

In my case and with many cases, the guy can still be crazy about you and yet still not pay for every date.

It is a bad sign to me though, when the guy pays for NO dates.

The OP's guy doesn't sound very generous; come on, he has paid for only ONE date out of 5, and he mentioned her shouting him drinks after to make it up to him. WTF?

January 9, 2014

I really am grateful when guys Ask me out and pay. I will always reciprocate by taking them to concerts or to coffee occasionally just so they know that I like them. I also will cook for them if I like them a lot. Honestly I don't mind paying some, but if a guy asks me out and then doesn't pay on the first date, I will think he isn't isn't that into me.

January 9, 2014

I have to admit, I find a guy who doesn't like paying to be a big turn-off.

I usually did the thing where the guy paid for dinner, and if we did dessert/drinks after, I paid for those.

My current SO pays really every time we go out, even now. Every once and a while I grab the check to surprise him, but he usually insists. Of course, his salary allows him to do it... and I think for him, picking up the check has some sort of significance for him, you know, to "provide" or something. He does the same thing when we're out with friends occasionally.

edit to add: I also like to do special dinners in, as a means of balancing the scales.

January 9, 2014

OP, your expectations are your own and there is no wrong answer. No one has to agree with you here because this is about your preferences. People have different expectations and your only responsibility is to be clear and concise about what you want and what behavior you find acceptable.

I am a traditional progressive so I like to be chivalrous and also believe in women being equal. I never really went out with feminists who objected to me opening doors or paying for dates as they wouldn't be attractive to my traditionalist ideologies. However, to each their own and I respect women's choice to pay for their own dates. I just never dated them.

Now I am married and my wife appreciates me placing her in the car and carrying her over mud puddles. She appreciates traditional values as this is how she was raised too.

There are expectations that we all have. The men here who likes to pay Dutch aren't wrong nor are you for your preferences. Just be clear and own them.
Best,
Grumps

Your wife is so lucky. I think I am crushing on you.

January 9, 2014

Your wife is so lucky. I think I am crushing on you.

Grumps is quite a catch, it seems.

January 9, 2014

I get very turned by women who don't give me blowjobs on the first date, it makes me feel less special, because there are women who it.

It's like, if you really were interested, you'd take the initiative and go out of your way to please me.

See, here's the difference between you and me, Moonie.

I get what I ask for. Because after all, it's not an unreasonable standard to have.

Good luck with your hyperbole, though. Works for lots of men, so I hear.

January 9, 2014

This whole who pays what is silly to me.

This is what should happen:

1. Talk about the expectations before the date, or
2. The man pays and there's no awkwardness

There is no expectation from either that the woman will pay for the date. Also, it is down-right weird to expect from the guy, especially, that things will be dutch w/o having had a discussion.

My bf told me outright on the first date before we ordered food that he does not agree in paying for every date, because while he would like to treat me some of the time, he doesn't want it to be expected and he doesn't have the cash right now to just play for all the dates either.

He said he likes treating a girl, but not every time, and he hates when girls have a sense of entitlement and expect the men to pay every time.

January 9, 2014

Your wife is so lucky. I think I am crushing on you.

Where do I sign up to join the fan club? I can print our T-shirts!

January 9, 2014

Hmmm, so you equate his interest in you to the stuff he pays for? You want to be wined and dined in order to be impressed with him. This just seems a bit weird. Do you view yourself as just a prize (a trophy if you will) for the man man willing to spend the most money on you? I know you probably don't but that's what it comes across as.

I don't mind paying, as long as she does as well. I don't like double standards, and I don't operate by them. If someone offered to pay, I'd accept, why else would they offer? But instead you play games, you offer but he's not meant to accept? With all my previous relationships we usually took turns paying, even in the early stages. That made things easier instead of digging for change. I'd be very turned off by a woman who treated me as a walking wallet.

January 9, 2014

Many guys will show their interest in other ways too besides throwing all their money on dates.

Oh yes. I expect that too. Your point (insofar as you had one) was that I'd be stupid to expect a man to pay for a date. That it's a foolish standard.

I don't agree. I think it's wholly reasonable; indeed, a starting point. Hardly comparable to your not so classy analogies.

I respect people who don't see things the same way... I just choose not to date them.

January 9, 2014

It's interesting to note the cultural differences in paying, actually.

When I was attending college in Asia, society pretty much expected the guy to pay, to an extent that waiters just assumed. I would go out with a platonic male friend and they'd shove the bill at him. I would pay the guy back later, of course, but it struck me as funny. Guys did commonly pay for platonic female friends there too, but I had always insistently refused so as not to give false signals.

The culture here (Kiwi, much more egalitarian) seems to be the other way round. Bf once expressed his bemusement at the fact that a restaurant that we frequent asked him for the fifth time whether he'd like to pay for himself or the both of us, when he went up to the counter. I suppose they were just following protocol, but still...

January 9, 2014

Cultural differences are astounding.

My friend from Belarus is back there atm, in Minsk...

The male friend she is hanging out with paid for everything; not just food, but for her clothes shopping too.

The male friend is strictly a platonic friend, yet he just pays for her when they hang out.

It is normal for their culture for a lot of men to be like that with their attractive female friends. Without expecting sex.

January 9, 2014

I have to admit, I find a guy who doesn't like paying to be a big turn-off.

I usually did the thing where the guy paid for dinner, and if we did dessert/drinks after, I paid for those.

My current SO pays really every time we go out, even now. Every once and a while I grab the check to surprise him, but he usually insists. Of course, his salary allows him to do it... and I think for him, picking up the check has some sort of significance for him, you know, to "provide" or something. He does the same thing when we're out with friends occasionally.

edit to add: I also like to do special dinners in, as a means of balancing the scales.

Perhaps, here in lies a couple key points:

#1) When a guy has the means to drop $80-$100 for wine/dine/entertain on a regular basis, he does not have to check his account balance to see if there is anything left. Compare to the guy who would love to do the same but cannot when making say... 50K/year w/child support and living payday to payday.

#2) For the guy with the means, it is a luxury to feel good about being able to "provide". The guy just trying to live within his budget has to come up with "other" means (besides financial) to be seen as a good partner or provider.

January 9, 2014

My bf told me outright on the first date before we ordered food that he does not agree in paying for every date, because while he would like to treat me some of the time, he doesn't want it to be expected and he doesn't have the cash right now to just play for all the dates either.

He said he likes treating a girl, but not every time, and he hates when girls have a sense of entitlement and expect the men to pay every time.

This is exactly how it should be as far as communication and standards are concerned. No trying to impress anyone, no surprises. Straight to the point and then it's up to the other party to decide if it works for them or not.

January 9, 2014

I've just started seeing someone and I really like him, but I am extremely annoyed with the fact that he has never actually paid entirely for any of our dates, and didn't come and pick me up during our last date.

Before you attack me, let me say that we always split the bills on the date, and I don't really mind, but in the beginning I guess I would like some romance and chivalry...is it crazy for me to want him to take me out-in all sense of the phrase (e.g., pick me up, pay for dinner) essentially wine and dine me!!!

I know people will post about gender equality and feminist movement..which I am all for, but I don't think chivalry and feminism have to be in contention with one another. To me, they are completely different things.

I feel a bit shallow about this but it does bother me. I am of the mindset that if I guy really likes you and wants you he will go to the moon and back, or just pay for dinner the first few times. Not even our first date did he do that, we split the bill!

Is this dump worthy???

It is dump worthy solely on the basis of compatibility. If that is important to you to the point that you really are resentful of it and it bothers you enough to post here about it, then maybe your values/worldviews aren't in sync and maybe your "love languages" aren't either.

I believe as you do. I don't see equality as meaning that chivalry is dead. I can do anything a man can do, am no less smart, rational etc. and when it comes on to dating I like some chivalry.

In the beginning stages of dating for me it doesn't feel like dating if we're splitting the bill, I don't get picked up every once in a while etc. It just feels like friends and the few men who have done this it never went further as I simply couldn't tell if they liked me beyond friends and it felt too friendly.

I like gentlemen and my personal preference is for the first few dates at least for the man to do more of the traditional things. That's my preference and I tend to date men who feel the same so it works smoothly. I've gone on 2 dates where it was different and it never turned into anything more as the vibe just felt friendly to me. Also, if I am on a date that's not going well I have no issues choosing to pay and be on my way. I'm not gonna get bent out of shape dating men who feel differently then try to get them to do what I prefer. I don't care what other women do, as I don't feel it is right or wrong, just what you like and prefer.

Edited January 9, 2014 by MissBee

January 9, 2014

I've just started seeing someone and I really like him, but I am extremely annoyed with the fact that he has never actually paid entirely for any of our dates, and didn't come and pick me up during our last date.

Before you attack me, let me say that we always split the bills on the date, and I don't really mind, but in the beginning I guess I would like some romance and chivalry...is it crazy for me to want him to take me out-in all sense of the phrase (e.g., pick me up, pay for dinner) essentially wine and dine me!!!

I know people will post about gender equality and feminist movement..which I am all for, but I don't think chivalry and feminism have to be in contention with one another. To me, they are completely different things.

I feel a bit shallow about this but it does bother me. I am of the mindset that if I guy really likes you and wants you he will go to the moon and back, or just pay for dinner the first few times. Not even our first date did he do that, we split the bill!

Is this dump worthy???

There are a lot of pages I'm not going to read though here.

The way I feel about this is I pay for the first few dates on top of other things to show how I feel and to "wow" my date a little. I don't do it because I think the woman I'm with is entitled to it. Its something extra that I do for someone I'm willing to go the extra mile for.

So I think you should look at is as something that some people may do because they want to to express themselves that way. You should never feel you're entitled to it. Just like no one is entitled to a present on any holiday.

January 9, 2014

What do you think of him as a person? That's really all that matters.

You do not know his situation. How his finances are, if he's donating a lot of money to charity, if he's helping pay for surgery for someone who needs it, etc.

Personally when dating I never took a woman anywhere that cost money on the first date. My wallet wasn't opening until I knew I was truly interested in someone. If the first date was crappy at least all I wasted was time. And if a woman was judging me based on what I was paying for I certainly wouldn't have an interest in seeing them any further.

I wouldn't ask someone on a date if I couldn't afford to pay. If you've asked esp, you KNOW what you and can't afford and you have every control over choosing something within your budget.

When friends come to visit me for the weekend for example, I don't pay for everything, but just as a courtesy and as my guests I will often treat them and pay for some things when we go out and I'm showing them my city. Since I know I do that, I choose to pay for the things I can afford and suggest activities I can afford. I already know where I'm taking them and pre-plan which things I'll treat them to based on my financial situation.

This is with friends, so even more so in dating. Same rules apply. Even as a woman, if I invite a man out and I am of the mind to pay for us, I do so knowing what I can and can't afford and make the date something within my means.

I would find it tacky and kind of foolish on a man's part to keep trying to go on dates he couldn't afford. It's not about money, chivalry is free. As another said, if you can't pay for a 4 course meal for both of us, no worries, but can you afford 2 ice-cream cones? Okay...if you can then take me out for ice-cream instead. That chivalrous feeling and effort and creativity is what I care about and not mooching off you or expecting you to go into debt for a date.

January 9, 2014

No you are not insane. I am going through a related situation, and have been pulling away.. and he's wondering why. I didn't tell him why, I didn't realize that this what's the issue until I thought about it. There was just something telling me he didn't care enough and this is it. So please update us on what you tell him, and how he responds.

Why don't you tell him then. Are you too embarrassed to say he's not a gentleman for not spending more money on you? Some women would say...a real gentleman wouldn't need to be told so that way you don't have to account for themselves (though a guy reacting by spending more $ to avoid being chastised is not hardly an ideal outcome)

He doesn't care enough because he doesn't spend any $ on you. In a relationship fair enough, but when you are dating someone, they are not obligated to you and there is no commitment from either party yet. There are women on here who say buying a ice cream or a coffee would be a really sweet gesture for them. Are they selling themselves too cheap?

Op - He is not wrong wrong for not doing this in post feminism 2014 imo (though I don't do it but I'm not going to fight with a woman who insists on paying her share either) but obviously it seems to be a case of incompatibility.

January 9, 2014

Cultural differences are astounding.

My friend from Belarus is back there atm, in Minsk...

The male friend she is hanging out with paid for everything; not just food, but for her clothes shopping too.

The male friend is strictly a platonic friend, yet he just pays for her when they hang out.

It is normal for their culture for a lot of men to be like that with their attractive female friends. Without expecting sex.

Its good being attractive. People treat you better.

Lucky are the pretty Russian girls, though I personally think its wrong....to be rewarded for simply being born blessed with beauty.

Edited January 9, 2014 by ascendotum

January 9, 2014

My bf told me outright on the first date before we ordered food that he does not agree in paying for every date, because while he would like to treat me some of the time, he doesn't want it to be expected and he doesn't have the cash right now to just play for all the dates either.

He said he likes treating a girl, but not every time, and he hates when girls have a sense of entitlement and expect the men to pay every time.

Why would anyone wait until you're ordering food to say this? That would be so weird to me. I would feel like it was a test and as though he was trying to see if I was such a woman with "entitlement issues"...wtf. No offense to your bf, clearly you didn't mind it, so that's what matters. But for me, I would think it extremely poor taste to be sitting at dinner and have a man say that, at least make that known BEFORE we head out and not mid-ordering.

January 9, 2014

Why would anyone wait until you're ordering food to say this? That would be so weird to me. I would feel like it was a test and as though he was trying to see if I was such a woman with "entitlement issues"...wtf. No offense to your bf, clearly you didn't mind it, so that's what matters. But for me, I would think it extremely poor taste to be sitting at dinner and have a man say that, at least make that known BEFORE we head out and not mid-ordering.

Oh lol.

He didn't say all of that on date one but close enough to it. He ended up paying though for the food and since then he seems to enjoy treating me to dinner. I think I've only ever paid once in 6 weeks for food.

I guess he just didn't want a girl who felt entitled to free meals every every time we went out.

It is kind of ironic that he has ended up paying for most of the meals! Probably because I always take my wallet, buy him a round of drinks occasionally and am generally very nice to him:lmao:

January 9, 2014

I am impressed with generosity of the HEART and ONES' TIME... not so much a big spender. Some people create a lot of expectations when finances are involved and things can get uncomfortable.

IMO, a guy who buys on their dates 100% of the time is either just insecure or expecting something for his investing. But, if he shows you generosity by making or taking time then the true character appears.

Speaking from personal experience, the amount of attraction someone has for me, is connected with the desire to pamper me, not the amount of money he spends (where did I mention that? ). And what is more generous than someone who does his best for me to have a good time and feel taken care of? I want someone who is generous with his affections, and is thoughtful. And somehow I want to have a sign of it in the beginning (if he is a jerk deep inside, I don't know, but I can't know if he is when going dutch either). Call me shallow, old-fashioned, call me what you like. But that's what I expect.

And to make it clear, I'm the kind of person who never forgets when someone treats me nicely. Never. It makes me very happy which makes me love to reciprocate. And after some dates, I will be the one who will invite out to dinner, or split the bill. There is not need for calculations, one day he will treat me, the next day I will treat him, the very next day we will split it. But I want him to be a gentleman to begin with.

January 9, 2014

I think there's too much pressure on men to do most of the work during early dating.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Monm82

January 9, 2014

Another time he paid for my meal and when I offered money he said "you can buy me a drink".

It's really not about the money it's the gesture..

Huh, how is this even a problem? If a guy has spent £50 on dinner for the two of us you'd better be sure I'll be getting to the bar first in the next place we go to so that I can get the drinks in (£8!). I would honestly be a little turned off if someone accepted my offer to split the bill on a first couple of dates though. If I'm into someone then after the first few dates I will make sure I get the whole of the next one, or invite him round to cook dinner for him. Then again, on dates I'm happy to do something that costs next to nothing, and on my second date with my ex when he went to the bathroom in a coffee shop I picked up the whole tab so that it was sorted before we left.

I like to pull my weight, with dating I can't help but instinctively prefer for the guy to get the check, but in relationships it is 50/50 for me and I am happy to treat half of the time. However I'm earning very very little at the moment (studying for my MA) and most of the guys I'm dating have full-time jobs (I do also work part time) so they don't seem to have a problem with paying as it would be a little mean-looking for a surgeon to expect a student on minimum wage at a takeaway on the evenings to get half of dinner!

January 9, 2014

However I'm earning very very little at the moment (studying for my MA) and most of the guys I'm dating have full-time jobs (I do also work part time) so they don't seem to have a problem with paying as it would be a little mean-looking for a surgeon to expect a student on minimum wage at a takeaway on the evenings to get half of dinner!

Absolutely agree. However if you were a man, some of the women would still expect you so. To me in the 21st century that's just mind boggling. Or if the surgeon said, 'well I'm not dating MA students, she can't afford to buy me dinner'. Gender stereotypes are just

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Am I insane for wanting to be wined and dined?

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