nescafe1982 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I can't think of the expectation that the man should pay as being anything other than an outdated tradition in a society in which MEN made the money, and women kept the house. In those days, I can see that set-up as being a lot more understandable, but nowdays women earn their share too. Just some still expect to be treated the same! It's usually the same kinds of women who claim they're for equal rights and how society needs to change, but they still expect the same kind of treatment women got back in the day. Yes, because having civil rights is not, and should not be, connected to dating preferences. We live in a world where women can work and maintain a home while also expecting some civility, respect, and niceness from men. At the same time. Imagine that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
nescafe1982 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 If its usually expected for a man to be the one to ask you out, to plan the date, to pick you up, to pay, and to drop you off, what does the woman do ? Is her only role traditionally to just show up ? She just shows up looks pretty and smiles ? We spend time with you. Try to get to know you. Appraise whether you're the kind of man who we could see ourselves getting together with seriously... get married to... raise kids with... all that stuff. You (as "man") do the same thing. But when you're taking a lady you like out to dinner, why see planning the date as "labor" or "work"? That's what I don't get. If you want to know specifically what you're "buying" with your money... I guess it's the lady's time. That would be the best way to view it without getting into weird sexual-entitlement issues, I think. Dating should be fun, though. Seriously... if a guy can only think about how much hardship and work it all is, maybe he needs a break from dating. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
lollipopspot Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Rape is a horrible thing but the majority of men are not rapists. Do you think the majority of women are male bashers? Do you think the majority of males are misogynists? Do a lot of men get off on porn that is demeaning to women? (Yes. The majority of porn is violent and/or degrading to women, and men eat that up). Do they use the word b*tch when they don't like a woman? C*nt? Look, I'm all for gender roles changing, but YOU made it all about how women are male bashers. If you're going to be silly enough to put individual dating behavior down to a gender war, then you'd best look at the collective behavior of your own gender too, because it isn't that good. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Yes, because having civil rights is not, and should not be, connected to dating preferences. We live in a world where women can work and maintain a home while also expecting some civility, respect, and niceness from men. At the same time. Imagine that. We can't men expect civility, respect and niceness from women? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
nescafe1982 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 We can't men expect civility, respect and niceness from women? They can. And they should. Who said otherwise, Woggle? Link to post Share on other sites
Keenly Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 We spend time with you. Try to get to know you. Appraise whether you're the kind of man who we could see ourselves getting together with seriously... get married to... raise kids with... all that stuff. You (as "man") do the same thing. But when you're taking a lady you like out to dinner, why see planning the date as "labor" or "work"? That's what I don't get. If you want to know specifically what you're "buying" with your money... I guess it's the lady's time. That would be the best way to view it without getting into weird sexual-entitlement issues, I think. Dating should be fun, though. Seriously... if a guy can only think about how much hardship and work it all is, maybe he needs a break from dating. Usually its only seen as work after numerous unsuccessful attempts. Then it becomes kind of a " why am I even doing this ? " kind of thing. I understand why a woman would want these things, but do you understand that sometimes a man would want to be made to feel just as desired / special ? Link to post Share on other sites
Lixxy Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Yes, because having civil rights is not, and should not be, connected to dating preferences. We live in a world where women can work and maintain a home while also expecting some civility, respect, and niceness from men. At the same time. Imagine that. Yes, women can work and maintain a home while also expecting civility.. your point? Or are you saying that a man paying for dates = respect, civility and niceness? If so, then it should be just as acceptable for a woman to be held to similar standards of paying full bills, but I've rarely seen women who want "chivalrous" partners extending the same level of "respect, civility and niceness" to the partners or potential partners they expect all this from. Link to post Share on other sites
Lixxy Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Do you think the majority of males are misogynists? Do a lot of men get off on porn that is demeaning to women? (Yes. The majority of porn is violent and/or degrading to women, and men eat that up). Do they use the word b*tch when they don't like a woman? C*nt? LMFAO. Because porn that is "demeaning to men" doesn't exist! At all. Many women and gay men just don't get into that because they aren't like the nasty pervoid straight men! Ugh, come off it! Four words: Cock and ball torture. Open your eyes. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 They can. And they should. Who said otherwise, Woggle? Because when men ask for those things we are accused of wanting a stepford wife or being afraid of strong women. I was accused of trying to oppress women just because I didn't want my ex to cheat on me so for a while I really had no desire to show chivalry to women. I don't feel like that now but I am trying to explain why many men feel the way they do. Link to post Share on other sites
nescafe1982 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Yes, women can work and maintain a home while also expecting civility.. your point? Or are you saying that a man paying for dates = respect, civility and niceness? If so, then it should be just as acceptable for a woman to be held to similar standards of paying full bills, but I've rarely seen women who want "chivalrous" partners extending the same level of "respect, civility and niceness" to the partners or potential partners they expect all this from. That's a shame (that you don't see as many women doing right by their guys). But my point was that your by linking women's struggle for civil rights with a "why do they still want men to pay?" argument, your post made it sound like women can't expect have both rights and chivalrous treatment. That's just not true. As to Keenly's post, I can imagine it gets so very exhausting when you're on a string of unsuccessful dates. I see that. Thanks for your perspective. I can really only speak to my experience. My experience has been that dating should never be about keeping score. And that if a guy is keeping score very early on (e.g. getting pushy about who pays the bill, whether it's him, or me, or we go dutch), that's a bad sign. Why is it a bad sign? Because relationships don't work when we keep score... when we count who contributes more money, or who has more orgasms, who cooks more, who cleans more, or who does the dishes. Parity is important, of course. A sense of parity is needed for relationship success. But ironically, keeping score too closely quickly mitigates that sense of parity. So when I was dating, I usually expected a guy to pay the first few times. Didn't matter if the date was cheap or spendy. And I would start picking up the tab at times, or cooking for him. I don't think it's unreasonable for a woman to take this approach.. it worked damn fine for me and my relationship is a happy one. What I am sensing from this thread, though.. is that early dating is a time when 1) it's really, really easy to start "keeping score" by focusing on who picks up the check, but that 2) "keeping score" is the best way to kill a new romance. Frustrating. Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I understand that women want chivalry but they need to understand why many men have turned away from it. Once they understand that then they can work on bringing it back. In order to fix a problem you need to get to the root of it. If chivalry is dead women have killed it and it is up to them to bring it back. Why don't you go up to the billions of LS threads about how women aren't 'feminine' or 'nurturing' or 'ladylike' anymore and suggest to the OP that men have killed femininity and it's up to them to bring it back? Practice what you preach. If you wish people to be less biased, start from yourself. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
nescafe1982 Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Because when men ask for those things we are accused of wanting a stepford wife or being afraid of strong women. I was accused of trying to oppress women just because I didn't want my ex to cheat on me so for a while I really had no desire to show chivalry to women. I don't feel like that now but I am trying to explain why many men feel the way they do. That's messed up. I hope you didn't take what that person said to heart. But it doesn't mean that the entire female species agrees with that screwed up perspective. And for what it's worth: there is nothing wrong with wanting a "stepford wife" type of woman. There is nothing wrong with preferring a woman who is less, shall we say, "strong" or "independent." We all have our preferences... it doesn't make you a bad person to want a woman who wants to stay at home with kids, if that's what a happy family looks like to you. People judge. But honestly, who cares? Just own your preferences, instead of making the choice to stop being chivalrous, you know? Edit to add: I would also note, from a purely empirical standpoint (e.g. not directed at Woggle but in general), that the men I see that are pro-chivalry seem to be generally happier with women in general, and with their dating lives in particular. I don't know if there is a connection... but it's interesting to note how "keeping score" might erode happiness. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
OpheliaSong Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 If you are a man and you don't want to pay for a date, don't. There are some women who will prefer to date you as opposed as to the men who are more traditional. I was raised traditionally where a man treats a girl like an equal but they get to choose what roles they have in their relationship. I like cooking, taking care of the house and making a home. I am also a student and have my own career aspirations and am capable to take care of my finances and my vehicle. I date men who ask me out and therefore pick the first date and pay. I have never been asked to go halfsies or to pay for a date. I personally would think a man that wanted me to go halfsies or for me to pay for the date wouldn't be compatible with me because I like men who are going to want to court me. I think I am worth the time and the planning. Money is secondary. Somedude talked about a date where he took his gf to the beach and hiking for less than five dollars. I liked that so this isn't about money. I respect a man who isn't in a battle of the sexes with me. You may be winning a argument in your mind about what all women and men are like but we are all different. If you want a modern, non traditional woman who likes to pay for her dates, there is nothing wrong with that, but don't act like the women who do like traditional men are not holding up their end of the deal in the dating arena by cooking, caring and taking care of our bfs. You don't know us. I am a caregiver by nature and am very kind and nurturing to men I share my time with. I also want to be a mother and have a husband one day. I am traditional in that way and may be why I am attracted to men who are traditional and who I think will treat me with generosity and tenderness. That is the kind of man I want to marry and have children with. If you as a man want a woman who pays for your dates and courts you, that is fine too, but don't act like people who want something different are punishing you for being a man. That is ludicrous because most of us aren't in this battle with you. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Why don't you go up to the billions of LS threads about how women aren't 'feminine' or 'nurturing' or 'ladylike' anymore and suggest to the OP that men have killed femininity and it's up to them to bring it back? Practice what you preach. If you wish people to be less biased, start from yourself. Because for the most part it wasn't mostly men who wanted to change the rules. All I am saying is that traditional is a two way street. Link to post Share on other sites
OpheliaSong Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Because for the most part it wasn't mostly men who wanted to change the rules. All I am saying is that traditional is a two way street. Are you saying that women's rights is anything but fair? Those rules subjected women to being completely dependent on men. Women can't want a job in male dominated fields, the right to vote, get educations, and equal rights under the law because they want a man to still court them with dates? Your ex did a number on you. Women on here have exes who did a number on them too. Not a gender thing. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Keenly Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Some people say cucumbers taste better pickled. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 What rules? Fair pay? Voting rights? The right to our own personhood not to be seen as property? I'm gleaning from your posts that you think wanting to be treated as an equal means not being treated as a woman. We're just two buddies out for fun, and you hopefully get to bang me sooner or later. Nice. It wasn't just about that. Many women then and now wanted to change the rules on dating and relationships but expect men to still do the same things. You would be offended if a wanted you to cook for him and rightfully so why expect him to still pay? Many women want to live a Sex and the City lifestyle which I fully support but don't expect men to still act as if is still old fashioned courting. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Versacehottie Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 That is silly. How do you figure? I find this line of thinking all over the place, and not only on LS. That if there is something wrong with our gender norms or dating culture, it's the women who screwed it up, and therefore it's the women who need to fix it. I take issue with this idea. If men stop working to treat women on dates, it's the men doing something new, not the women. How, exactly, would you place the "blame" on women for men's failure to ante up like they did before? Of course, I'm more inclined to call BS on the whole idea that "chivalry is dead," because honestly, I have not had a date with a guy who insisted I pay in a very, very long time (if ever). I have "gone dutch" on dates... but I've never had a guy, you know, "put his foot down" about not wanting to pick up the tab. I don't think chivalry is as dead as some people think it is. True, I don't think chivalry is dead either, nor generation-specific either. PLENTY of guys who DO live this way and enjoy it. Maybe the guys who don't do it were never really that chivalry-inclined to begin with. LOL, now it's a culture shift. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Versacehottie Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Dating should be fun, though. Seriously... if a guy can only think about how much hardship and work it all is, maybe he needs a break from dating. Yes, especially this. Behind the scenes, we get ready for the date and are excited and looking forward to it. Meanwhile a guy who had to initiate & will have to pay sees it as work and a hardship and feels put out. Weird. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Because honestly a lot of dating these days is just nothing but drama. When you are paying for a woman to go on a date with you and afterwards some guy who didn't spend a dime is sleeping with her you start to feel like a sucker. I am not saying that a woman owes a man sex but after being left in the dark so many times it just gets tiring. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Also if women want men to start being chivalrous again maybe stop constantly telling us how much you don't need us. Being told how useless you are to a woman's life does not inspire men to want to be gentlemen. Link to post Share on other sites
Versacehottie Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 When you are paying for a woman to go on a date with you and afterwards some guy who didn't spend a dime is sleeping with her you start to feel like a sucker. I am not saying that a woman owes a man sex but after being left in the dark so many times it just gets tiring. In response to your quote above and Keenly's comment about having unsuccessful dates and being frustrated to keep doing that. I totally understand if those dates are with the same person and you are several dates in. I agree with you both. However, don't you think that you owe it to yourselves to start the clock over and start fresh if you mean on subsequent dates with new girls? I mean just because you perhaps feel burned by one specific one, why would you take that attitude in with the next date/potential relationship? That's a kind of bitter position to take (not saying that either of you do that). I feel like both parties owe the other the respect of being hopeful of what could be and coming in with a clean slate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Versacehottie Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Also if women want men to start being chivalrous again maybe stop constantly telling us how much you don't need us. Being told how useless you are to a woman's life does not inspire men to want to be gentlemen. Precisely why we like it when you pay!! It's a gesture that puts off the appearance that we DO need you and you PROVIDE something that we cannot get anywhere else. It's really so sweet and a guy who does it graciously has show himself to have a quality that is highly desirable by many women. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 In response to your quote above and Keenly's comment about having unsuccessful dates and being frustrated to keep doing that. I totally understand if those dates are with the same person and you are several dates in. I agree with you both. However, don't you think that you owe it to yourselves to start the clock over and start fresh if you mean on subsequent dates with new girls? I mean just because you perhaps feel burned by one specific one, why would you take that attitude in with the next date/potential relationship? That's a kind of bitter position to take (not saying that either of you do that). I feel like both parties owe the other the respect of being hopeful of what could be and coming in with a clean slate. Because when you keep getting burned over and over again and then you see guys who do everything women say they hate about men getting all the action you start to wonder if maybe that is the right course to take. I am happy with a woman myself but I get sick of guys on here being chewed for what I think are legitimate concerns. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Precisely why we like it when you pay!! It's a gesture that puts off the appearance that we DO need you and you PROVIDE something that we cannot get anywhere else. It's really so sweet and a guy who does it graciously has show himself to have a quality that is highly desirable by many women. So the only way a woman needs a man is if he gives her money? Link to post Share on other sites
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