Can the wayward spouse learn new relationship skills?

[Arieswoman]

On the "Placing Blame" thread post #111 Rumbleseat made this erudite comment ;-

 

Whatever the reason, they need to learn other ways of dealing with things. If they cheat because they are unhappy, they need to learn better ways of finding happiness in their marriage. If they cheated because of some passive aggressive reason, they need to learn better ways of letting their spouse know they have a problem with something in their marriage. If they cheat because of something lacking, then find other ways to fill that void.

 

If they cheat because they just don't want to be married anymore but they are too frightened to leave, then they need to grow a backbone and not use someone else as their safe landing spot or emotional sponge. It's not fair to the "other", and it's not fair to the bs.

 

Now, how would WS's address their lack of skills in this area? (Assuming they wish to do so )

 

Would it be via therapy, counselling or empirical experience?

Edited January 3, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Added link, clarified title and moved to GRD

[AlwaysGrowing]

The quickest and easiest route (which is long and difficult) is through IC.

 

It is a process of going back over ones life, the marriage and the affair. Being brutally honest with oneself. They chart it out. They delve into areas where there was dysfunction, poor coping skills and start to see a pattern. Once identified, you can start to look at healthier coping skills. Then you put them into practice. Slowly, you start to re-wire yourself. It takes conscience effort at first....then it becomes part of the new you.

 

 

One day (years later) you look back and you don't recognize the old you. You have very little in common with that "person". You know it was you, but you now live your life with eyes wide open.

 

 

You look back and are thankful that you woke up to your life. You realize that being in control is soooo much better than the old "I couldn't help myself, it just happened" you.

 

 

It is something that a person wants for themselves.

[goodyblue]

This would also be a good time for the BS to go through their emotional inventory and figure out what was lacking on their part in the marriage. A marriage cannot be healed if it is simply the WS grovelling. The pain on all sides of the equation need to be addressed.

[cocorico]

On the "Placing Blame" thread post #111 Rumbleseat made this erudite comment ;-

 

 

 

Now, how would WS's address their lack of skills in this area? (Assuming they wish to do so )

 

Would it be via therapy, counselling or empirical experience?

 

My h did it through IC, through introspection, reading, through speaking to and learning from others, and through developing his R repertoire.

[BetrayedH]

I think AlwaysGrowing is right. I do believe people can change. And I think IC is an effective way for it to happen as they will focus on replacing unhealthy coping mechanisms (whether it be alcohol, drugs, sex, or affairs) with healthier ones. If a person is motivated enough (and many times "hitting rock bottom" achieves this) and under the guidance of a skilled therapist, they most certainly can change for the better. I think the trick for a BS is to determine if you're dealing with a person that is truly ready to be introspective and face their demons or if you're dealing with a person that remains a conflict-avoidant coward. As well, you have to determine what level of patience you have for that to present. I admire those that make the attempt and to a real extent, the waywards that do as well.

 

As for Goodyblue's mention of the BS, I think there is a typical assumption there that the "state of the marriage" contributed to the affair. In my experience, there are few BSs that are unwilling to be introspective about their part in marital problems, even though the wayward was many times the over-benefitted partner in the relationship. What I see are BSs that beat themselves up over their spouse's affair and don't resist efforts to do marriage counseling, etc.. But the BS shouldn't own the WS's decision to cheat when there were more logical, healthy, and ethical choices before them. Can the BS work on marital problems? Sure, and I think the vast majority of BSs make an attempt to multi-task. Hell, I tried to quit smoking, lost weight, upped my sexual game, contributed more to household duties, went to IC and MC, negotiated better communication techniques, tried to use journals & scheduled-time to discuss the affair to avoid constantly "punishing her," became more affectionate, worked on our emotional connection, scheduled date nights, and so forth. I mean, who can't improve, right? Beating yourself up for your shortcomings is pretty common for BSs, IMHO. Considering how quickly I focused on making what improvements I could, my wife said she felt stupid for not talking to me instead of cheating.

 

But the fact is that the affair was a nuke dropped on the marriage and the most basic violation of marital vows. It's a priority. And let's not pretend that the BS got a vote in that decision. That decision was made by the wayward and the BS doesn't need to be introspective about what they can do to prevent such a decision in the future, even though they do it anyway. It really is the wayward that needs to figure out why they made such a poor choice and thus, the question posed by the OP.

[rumbleseat]

It is possible to change negative behavior patterns, but first, one needs to recognize that there is a negative pattern and they also have to be open to change.

Some never get to that point. Some continue to blame others for their poor choices, and as long as they do that, they'll continue to be stuck in a rut, and may well shift back into their old ways when times get tough in their relationship.

 

For example: a man has an a, d day happens and he and his wife decide to reconcile. They try to talk through things and figure out why he cheated.

 

One reason he gives is that he feels his wife is too controlling. He may say that, and on the surface, he may well feel that is the case, but is that the reality ? Delving into his past may reveal that he had very strict and controlling parents, and he hated that. He became very sensitized to this feeling, and rebelled against it, and now, in his married life, he repeats that pattern, this time his rebellion is to have an affair. I'm not suggesting he consciously plans this out, but , in this case, it lies at the root of his choices.

Is his wife really controlling or is he just very sensitive to the feeling? Each case would be different.

In this situation, counselling can make a huge difference. It can really help by identifying issues and their causes, and then by helping the individual and couple learn better ways of dealing with them.

 

Having an affair is a negative and hurtful behavior, steeped In dishonesty. For some, it's a way to solve an issue in their life, take a passive aggressive swipe at their spouse, or avoid conflict.

I know that many om/ow (and some bs too) have a vested interest in blaming the marriage (or the om/ow)for the person's choices. It's easier than seeing that the person has made some poor decisions.

If one compares it to other poor choices like drinking, drug use, verbal/physical abuse of their spouse, etc., then one can see where the responsibility lies. For example, if a w is verbally abusive to her husband, would one fe willing to lay the blame for that at the feet of the marriage or her husband, or is it her choice to act the way she does? Sure, maybe there are problems in the marriage and maybe he can be really aggravating, but does that make her hurtful actions acceptable or somehow absolve her of personal responsibility for her actions?

[Arieswoman]

I think you have it there, Betrayed H, when you said

 

I think the trick for a BS is to determine if you're dealing with a person that is truly ready to be introspective and face their demons or if you're dealing with a person that remains a conflict-avoidant coward.

 

Unfortunately I was married to the latter.

[BetrayedH]

Unfortunately I was married to the latter.

 

As was I...

[WasOtherWoman]

Well, I sure in the heck hope so ....considering I married my MM, who clearly is capable of cheating (and clearly I am as well, since I was a participant).

 

We did a lot of pre-work before marrying... his major relationship flaw was that he just completely stopped engaging in conflict with his XW (ha... pretty typical, no?). I was "blessed" with parents who rarely argued or even disagreed, thus I never learned how to manage conflict myself, or even how to argue fairly.

 

Could most definitely have been a recipe for failure. I continue to believe that people are capable of changing, but only if they really want to.

[BeingMe]

I think you have it there, Betrayed H, when you said

 

 

 

Unfortunately I was married to the latter.

 

 

and so am I.

 

 

My WH concentrates only on what I need to change and walks away when he has to face his own flaws. I've been working on me and I will be a better partner than he will ever be while he refuses to face himself. However he's very good at saying [lying] the right thing and unless you look hard at his actions, it's very easy to believe him. I pity his OW.

[Bittersweetie]

I worked on myself through IC, reading, journaling, and talking with my H. I learned to recognize the issues I had, and together we recognized the issues in our relationship. Then we moved forward on addressing them.

 

I do think the change has to happen in the WS for themselves. In the immediate aftermath after d-day, I know I acted in certain ways because I didn't want to lose my H. But after a while, I wanted to change my behaviors because I wanted to be a better person regardless of what happened in our relationship. So I worked toward that goal, and continue to do so.

[RightThere]

Unfortunately I was married to the latter.

 

Ditto.

 

I think one of the best things I ever read on this forum was this:

 

"There are deep lessons to be learned in all marital or relationship strife, if only the ego can move aside long enough to find them"

 

I can't remember who posted it originally, but I found it defining in where I was at and where I was going to be as a BS.

[BetrayedH]

Ditto.

 

I think one of the best things I ever read on this forum was this:

 

"There are deep lessons to be learned in all marital or relationship strife, if only the ego can move aside long enough to find them"

 

I can't remember who posted it originally, but I found it defining in where I was at and where I was going to be as a BS.

 

Sounds like a Jonah quote to me. That's generally his posting theme (when I manage to follow his message anyway). I think there's a lot to be said for letting go of our ego, regardless of our point on the triangle. Easier said than done.

[BeingMe]

Rumbleseat is absolutely correct in how a WS might have felt....was not necessarily based on truth. Often, when asked to give specific examples...WS have a difficult time finding evidence to support their claim. A controlling husband was actually a man who took issue with his wife's overspending and credit card debt. Very reasonable response on his part. However, the wife twisted it into control to justify her cheating to herself.

 

 

This is true. Actually we probably all do this to some extent when we moa about our spouse. But WS can take it to an extreme, and believe it because it justifies their behaviour.

 

For example (and there are many more different things I could use): My WS used to accuse me of being critical, negative and nagging. For a long time I believed him and worked hard at not being like that. The more I worked, the more he criticised me. He used to procrastinate to an extreme amount (took 4 months to wash up one thing) and 'lose' things that I would need that day, often something the children would need for school or for me to cook dinner. If I phoned to ask where something was our conversation would go like this:

 

Me: Hi, sorry to phone you at work. Are you free to speak?

Him: Yes.

Me: I'm trying to find [item]

Him: ok

Me: Do you know where it is?

Him: No

Me: You had it [this morning/last night]

Him: Did I?

Me: Yes.

Him: [silence]

Me: I need to use it and can't find it.

Him: [silence]

Me: So do you know where it is?

Him: No

Me: Could you try and think where you last had it?

Him: I don't know

Me: Could you just have a think?

Him: I'm busy.

 

And so it would go on. And I would either say goodbye, hang up or sometimes start getting frustrated. Thing is, he did this ALL THE TIME. And if I got at all mad, he would hold the phone away from him. Even if I didn't,he would pull a face to a work colleague (he told me this after DDay). Mostly, I didn't actually phone him, but he used the times I did against me. But I didn't know what he was doing at the time, I assumed he loved me and didn't mean to be obtuse.

 

But in his reality, I was a terrible wife who lost things and then phoned him up to nag him about them and embarrass him in front of his colleagues (even though he had manipulated the entire situation). Therefore he could moan about me to co-worker OW and use that to flirt with her. Therefore he was justified in his affair because I was such a terrible wife.

 

He has rewritten our entire marriage to fit his affair viewpoint. He has even rewritten our decision to have children (very much mutually discussed, decided & enacted with enthusiasm) to disowning his part in it and disowning his desire for our children's conception. Please do not underestimate the ability of someone to create their own version of events to suit their poor choices.

 

 

 

HOWEVER a remorseful WS is capable of facing themselves, their decisions and their rewriting of history and making changes, without blaming their BS. My WS cannot seem to do this, but I know of others who have truly done this and whose marriages have recovered. I also know of other WS who married the OW but also worked on themselves and do seem to have successful marriages, but only because they worked on themselves. Anyone can change, if THEY really want to.

Edited January 3, 2014 by BeingMe

[yellowmaverick]

Now, how would WS's address their lack of skills in this area? (Assuming they

wish to do so )

 

 

 

 

IMO, it's not a lack of "skills"; it's a lack of character. Not sure that one can be fixed.

[carhill]

As a result of work in MC, I came to study Situationism in greater detail to understand the interplay between learned skills, ethics and character as they apply to vastly differing life situations.

 

I believe, if a wayward spouse has the will and proper help, and a history of situationally ethical behavior, they *can* learn relationship skills which translate into behavior of ethics and character within their interpersonal relationships. They essentially form new thought pathways and methods of processing emotions which form a different result from when they were a WS.

 

IMO, introspection only goes so far; for some, that is sufficient. For others, stronger measures like psychological therapy are needed. In my case, weakness relevant to inappropriate emotional relationships was merely a symptom of other issues, mainly surrounding boundaries and intrinsic emotional style, which needed work. Work on those areas resolved the inappropriate EA's area spontaneously, as it was all connected. PA's had never been a problem due to strong inhibitions and boundaries in that area. Nowadays, it's easy to be detached and not respond emotionally to triggers which pulled at me over past decades. Also, the same work caused me to see my own errors in both my relationship behaviors as well as remaining in a demographic which is unhealthy for me. Both were/are resolvable. Work with a professional psychologist was responsible for much of it.

 

How many men would take the time in therapy and 'alone' time away from relationships to process all this stuff? I haven't known many male WS's but no man I know personally would give more than a passing thought to this stuff. I know because I asked plenty while I was going through the process. Cross-eyed or quizzical might be an observation I'd make of the responses.

 

Will I ever be a wayward spouse again? Unknown. I won't be one today. I'm good with that.

[goodyblue]

Grovelling??????

 

 

Expecting a WS to figure out why they chose such an abusive behaviour is the WS grovelling?

 

 

We are cut from two very different cloths.

 

 

Reality check. A BS does not need nor WANT grovelling (which generally is a whole bunch of words). They want REAL change. REAL effort.

 

 

And the WS has to be the one to invest FIRST. Invest in themselves and the relationship. After the WS has shown that THEY are worth investing in, that is the time for MC. Why would a BS invest into someone who is so destructive and hurtful. That is the single largest mistake BS make. Trying to fix the WS and the relationship.

 

 

Priority one for a BS, is to protect themselves, their assets and children. Take time to see if the relationship is something they even want anymore. Time to see if their WS has true remorse or only guilt of being caught.

 

 

A WS relationship resume is one that most would toss upon reading current status (cheater). They have to have a WHOLE lot more to offer than.....I didn't lie TODAY.

 

 

Rumbleseat is absolutely correct in how a WS might have felt....was not necessarily based on truth. Often, when asked to give specific examples...WS have a difficult time finding evidence to support their claim. A controlling husband was actually a man who took issue with his wife's overspending and credit card debt. Very reasonable response on his part. However, the wife twisted it into control to justify her cheating to herself.

 

 

Anyone....regardless of the hat they wear can benefit from living their life more aware of WHO they are and HOW they tick. Eyes wide open.

 

Yes, grovelling. Reality check: this forum is filled with BS's saying that the WS must do anything and everything asked by the BS in order to reconcile regardless of how silly it may seem. Like it or not, that's grovelling. I don't disagree with growth and change in a person who has made a disastrous mistake, but to just have to do whatever they're told simply because 'BS said so" is ridiculous.

[rumbleseat]

Yes, grovelling. Reality check: this forum is filled with BS's saying that the WS must do anything and everything asked by the BS in order to reconcile regardless of how silly it may seem. Like it or not, that's grovelling. I don't disagree with growth and change in a person who has made a disastrous mistake, but to just have to do whatever they're told simply because 'BS said so" is ridiculous.

 

Interesting response, but inaccurate.

 

The bs has every right to ask the ws to do whatever they feel they need to do to reconcile. What seems silly to an outsider looking in may not be so silly after all.

 

The ws also has the right to decide if they want to comply with the wishes and requests of the bs. They have the choice to reconcile or not, knowing full well what may be asked of them.

 

No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to do something they don't want to do. Could be that they realize how much they really do love their spouse, value their marriage and are more than happy to do as their spouse requests in order to move forward.

 

In short, every marriage reconciliation will have certain terms and conditions, and these will vary according to the couple involved. Each spouse has the right to decide to stay and work through all of it or they can decide it's not worth it and walk away.

 

If a spouse chooses to stay, it's because, for whatever reason, they want to.

[MissBee]

Interesting response, but inaccurate.

 

The bs has every right to ask the ws to do whatever they feel they need to do to reconcile. What seems silly to an outsider looking in may not be so silly after all.

 

The ws also has the right to decide if they want to comply with the wishes and requests of the bs. They have the choice to reconcile or not, knowing full well what may be asked of them.

 

No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to do something they don't want to do. Could be that they realize how much they really do love their spouse, value their marriage and are more than happy to do as their spouse requests in order to move forward.

 

In short, every marriage reconciliation will have certain terms and conditions, and these will vary according to the couple involved. Each spouse has the right to decide to stay and work through all of it or they can decide it's not worth it and walk away.

 

If a spouse chooses to stay, it's because, for whatever reason, they want to.

 

Yep.

 

Unfortunately, the offending party is at the disadvantage in terms of setting terms. I have no clue how I would proceed with a reconciliation but what I need to feel fine is what I need, my WS can deem it unreasonable or reasonable, they can be willing or unwilling, it is totally up to them. They don't HAVE to oblige me, although a remorseful spouse will want to. I also wouldn't engage in anything just for the heck of it, like hazing. Chances are my needs would be about genuinely needing a certain thing to build trust again and is gonna be coming out of the warranted insecurity. What is reasonable or unreasonable is for the WS to decide not a third party looking in. Even if it is unreasonable to the OW, to the WS's mom, his sister, his bestfriend, they're not the ones who will have to do it so the only person's opinion of the terms that matters is his.

 

But the point is, everyone has a choice to make. If the terms are too much for the WS, they can say eff it and choose not to reconcile or agree to it. If I were the offending party it would be the same. Either it's worth it to me to work through things and to oblige my spouse until they feel comfortable or it's too much and I move on. No one is being forced to do anything.

Edited January 4, 2014 by MissBee