question to MM

[vanellope]

what is the point that after the Dday, you still want to keep OW as your friend.

 

and another question is, if you are really in love with OW but you don't want to divorce, what would you do.

[ZMM]

what is the point that after the Dday, you still want to keep OW as your friend.

 

and another question is, if you are really in love with OW but you don't want to divorce, what would you do.

 

This is a hypothetical, doesn't apply to me.

 

But, you would want to keep OW as a friend because you value her friendship and can't stand the thought of her not being a part of your life.

 

And if you are in love with OW, but don't want a divorce - you would live out your life being sad.

 

Just a guess.

[vanellope]

thanks ZMM.

 

are you in love with your OW, if so, why you say it's hypothetical.

[ZMM]

thanks ZMM.

 

are you in love with your OW, if so, why you say it's hypothetical.

 

Yes, I am. No D-Day and I can't say I don't want a divorce.

[ElectricTangerine]

I'm not a MM, but I'm familiar with your story.

 

1. Feels good to be wanted and adored by OW. OW are a great way to feed a man's ego. With the drama of BS knowing about the affair and him having to prove it to her again that he's trustworthy, MM wants some of OW's attention so he feels better about himself. It's all about him at this point, and he's not showing any respect for you or his wife.

 

2. If you're really in love with OW, feel nothing for the BS, and despite that don't want to divorce (can't? really?), then he's a gigantic, gigantic coward and someone who doesn't want to take control of his own life and happiness. A passive waffler. Even if the divorcing is difficult, the least he can do is be honest with both ladies involved in this crappy triangle. Not wait and see which option is better for him by deceiving both OW and BS and pulling them along. I'm sorry but I just don't buy it that people "can't" divorce. That's a statement of a very weak person. Please continue staying away from the MM vanellope.

[vanellope]

ET, thank you, what you write above I am totally think the same when I am rational.

 

I am in NC now, but sometime I think about him, and I got a feelings that maybe he do really treasure the friendship with me and he has his reason cannot divorce but he do really love me, is it illusion?

 

I feel very hard sometime when think about the sweet time we shared, it's hard to believe it's whole lie.

[flowingmane]

I think it's compartmentalization, vanellope. One of the thoughts going through my own mind this morning. I believe there are MM that truly love the OW and can build a second life to live in parallel. As long as those two worlds don't cross, they deliberately install mental blocks. I have seen my MM have random reactions to things that come out of nowhere - I realized over time that it has something to do with his "other life" and he has to shut that down fast, usually with a flash of anger (not at me, at the "thing" or at his other life). When we, the OW, start to cross that line, force choices just as the relationship grows and the feelings deepen, now the compartments break down.

 

Friendship is maybe wanting to return in a last ditch effort to compartmentalization. No D and truly in love, I agree with ZMM, I think it's a very sad MM that results. I think he always lives with a sense of emptiness because he knows more than ever what is missing. Maybe he can rebuild his M, maybe he eventually leaves, maybe he finds an EA.

[ZMM]

When we, the OW, start to cross that line, force choices just as the relationship grows and the feelings deepen, now the compartments break down.

 

You are 100% correct on this and once the compartments break down, it becomes hard to tolerate, almost unbearable. You may still be able to hide things externally, but not on the inside.

[dreamingoftigers]

You are 100% correct on this and once the compartments break down, it becomes hard to tolerate, almost unbearable. You may still be able to hide things externally, but not on the inside.

 

I see that most MM are very sad in general.

 

Almost "high" when they have the focus of both women. But mostly unable to reconcile the parts of themselves in conflict.

 

However, when it comes to the crunch most MM are too afraid to leàve the reality of their marriage for the fantasy of what they think their A could be.

 

I think affairs are a symptom of a broken spirit and inability to set proper boundaries that gets projected outward.

 

In fact, with my own husband I see many of his "poor coping skills" as a way to both numb the pain and cause enough of a disturbance to get attention. He rarely tries positive things consistently to gain traction and instead resorts to negative behaviour to instigate conflict.

 

I honestly think most MM are reliving their mother-conflict with their wives. Overbearing mother creates "powerless" son who marries and than later starts a cycle with wife that continues the unfortunate circumstance.

 

Ironically I am NOTHING like my husband's mother so the behavior escalates to extreme ranges before I become reactive. Unfortunately the only way I believe I can handle him (even though he is not currently unfaithful) is to reholster and walk away. He's shooting "blanks" and I've lived in fear of abandonment, divorce and HIS self-destruction for long enough. It's about to get ugly.

 

I think wives of MM often wonder why their man couldn't just be straight with them about what's going on with them. I think it's because MM assumes the their wife wouldn't really care or change anything anyhow, which is more a reflection of a mother-conflict than a marital one.

[flowingmane]

You are 100% correct on this and once the compartments break down, it becomes hard to tolerate, almost unbearable. You may still be able to hide things externally, but not on the inside.

 

So what is the thought process? How should we respond (in general, understanding individual situations are different)? Are we looked at as stressors?

[ZMM]

I see that most MM are very sad in general.

 

Almost "high" when they have the focus of both women. But mostly unable to reconcile the parts of themselves in conflict.

 

However, when it comes to the crunch most MM are too afraid to leàve the reality of their marriage for the fantasy of what they think their A could be.

 

I think affairs are a symptom of a broken spirit and inability to set proper boundaries that gets projected outward.

 

In fact, with my own husband I see many of his "poor coping skills" as a way to both numb the pain and cause enough of a disturbance to get attention. He rarely tries positive things consistently to gain traction and instead resorts to negative behaviour to instigate conflict.

 

I honestly think most MM are reliving their mother-conflict with their wives. Overbearing mother creates "powerless" son who marries and than later starts a cycle with wife that continues the unfortunate circumstance.

 

Ironically I am NOTHING like my husband's mother so the behavior escalates to extreme ranges before I become reactive. Unfortunately the only way I believe I can handle him (even though he is not currently unfaithful) is to reholster and walk away. He's shooting "blanks" and I've lived in fear of abandonment, divorce and HIS self-destruction for long enough. It's about to get ugly.

 

I think wives of MM often wonder why their man couldn't just be straight with them about what's going on with them. I think it's because MM assumes the their wife wouldn't really care or change anything anyhow, which is more a reflection of a mother-conflict than a marital one.

 

That may be true in some circumstances, but not all.

 

The reference to the 'high' from having the attention of both women, that doesn't fit me and neither does the 'over-bearing' mother. I'm not saying your analysis is wrong in general, it just doesn't mesh with my life.

[dreamingoftigers]

That may be true in some circumstances, but not all.

 

The reference to the 'high' from having the attention of both women, that doesn't fit me and neither does the 'over-bearing' mother. I'm not saying your analysis is wrong in general, it just doesn't mesh with my life.

 

Generalities rarely cover over everyone.

 

Do why do you think you lack the boundaries to choose one relationship and treat both women with basic respect?

Allow me to broaden my horizons.

[vanellope]

I still keep the NC now, it's so hard because I still love him very much, and many time I almost want to writing back when see the sweet writing from him.

 

i believe it's will be better if it's me decide to end it by myself instead let him walk away from me in the end, that's the thinking make me keep strong to keep doing NC now.

 

maybe he might respect me more in his mind after we go thought this one day.

[krazikat]

I still keep the NC now, it's so hard because I still love him very much, and many time I almost want to writing back when see the sweet writing from him.

 

i believe it's will be better if it's me decide to end it by myself instead let him walk away from me in the end, that's the thinking make me keep strong to keep doing NC now.

 

maybe he might respect me more in his mind after we go thought this one day.

 

You need to respect yourself girl. He has already shown you what he is about, his wife knows, and he is trying to stay married. It seems that the only way he will leave his wife is if she ends it...which would make you the default chic, and that is only if he decided to be with you at all.

 

I know it hurts, but there are many cheaters who do not consider the ow/m as a viable relationship option. This is not always the case, but it does seem to happen often. By agreeing to accept an affair relationship, the ap may lose value in the eyes of the cheater...

 

Not only did you participate in an affair, you also allowed sexual acts to be recorded...I am sorry V, but that is at least 2 strikes. Why did you think this behavior was okay? And why do you continue to analyze his feelings when he has shown you he wants to stay married to his wife? Do you think it is love for you to be kept as an ow?

[ZMM]

Generalities rarely cover over everyone.

 

Do why do you think you lack the boundaries to choose one relationship and treat both women with basic respect?

Allow me to broaden my horizons.

 

I made a mistake. I realize that is no excuse, but that's what happened. Had I come to some site like this beforehand, when it was all starting, I probably would have handled things much differently. That's just a guess, but I don't know for sure.

[dreamingoftigers]

I still keep the NC now, it's so hard because I still love him very much, and many time I almost want to writing back when see the sweet writing from him.

 

i believe it's will be better if it's me decide to end it by myself instead let him walk away from me in the end, that's the thinking make me keep strong to keep doing NC now.

 

maybe he might respect me more in his mind after we go thought this one day.

 

Honestly, with OW, I think the only way to be free of it is face the grief head-on. Know that there will be lingering attachments, dreams, and pain in the wee hours of the morning.

 

Then you'll get through. The pangs will lessen much quicker than you thought and you will be free of it and stronger. More likely and able to find respectful love.

[ElectricTangerine]

Honestly, with OW, I think the only way to be free of it is face the grief head-on. Know that there will be lingering attachments, dreams, and pain in the wee hours of the morning.

 

Then you'll get through. The pangs will lessen much quicker than you thought and you will be free of it and stronger. More likely and able to find respectful love.

 

I agree. You have to face all your emotions, there's no other way. Healing with time is the only refuge. MM can't help you heal, he'll just set you back and make it worse. Your relationship with him is the cause of your pain. The good and bad times you had with him are a part of your past. Allow yourself to feel whatever you're feeling, and with time, the pain will start going away.

[ElectricTangerine]

Forgive me if I have it wrong.

 

It sounds like you were having an affair because you avoided confronting the marital issues.

 

I'm not saying you didn't try at all. But it sounds like you didn't confront it to a point where you could either a) not feel continually isolated and enjoy the marriage because you have rebuild intimacy etc. or b) terminated the marriage in hopes of refocusing on finding your own path to a more compatible partner.

 

Enter OW.

Now she has been your distraction from confronting the potential loss or potential "feeling trapped" by the marriage. You have to face neither losing the marriage or feeling trapped in an unhappy long-term arrangement with your wife because you have the artificial freedom to do as you please with OW. The constraints are lifted.

 

But of course, it's a poor coping skill (I am not saying there are true feelings etc. here, but I fancy myself a bit more of a behaviourist. And it's Christmas I can "be whatever I want" or some such thing.)

It was destined to be unstable/untenable. Frankly if you haven't had the capacity to confront a two-way relationship with your wife, having two two-way relationships would not make things easier to confront for you.

 

You hooked yourself.

And now what? All of the potential grief you were avoiding before without confrontation has doubled. And now you have no coping skill to replace it with. I'll bet things are breaking down.

 

Please take no offence to this: long before you let down your OW, you let down your wife, but that in and of itself was only a symptom that you let down yourself.

 

You didn't stop to really, clearly weigh any of this out. You didn't fight fit you happiness within the marriage. Not hard enough anyway. That didn't mean you had to work it out, it meant you had to love yourself enough first to not let things spiral so far. To hand control of your happiness over to first your wife and then your OW.

 

Maybe you're a great worker, or a comedian at parties or even a great friend or Dad or whatever. But you're missing something that would give yiursekf enough respect to say "stop, weren't not going to be this unhappy anymore. We're going to figure this sh*t out first and foremost, because dammit I'm a lovable/likeable guy, I deserve to be happy. And if I don't deserve to be happy I tesorct myself enough to get myself to become a guy that deserves to be happy. Fu*k this isolated unhappy marriage crap. I'm going to do my damnedest to fix me, fix this pissy marriage and if I can't, I'm going to know I damned well tried and deserve happiness elsewhere. Time to sh*t or get off of the pot."

 

Do you know why that type of thought didn't stick? And why it hasn't yet?

Do you like to read?

 

Honestly, I'm not on your as* in judgment. It's just I've come to the "unhappy marriage crossroads" so many times I've considered opening a farmer's market there. And to me I see stepping outside the marriage as a way to clusterfu*k myself even worse.

 

I think you described my xMM very accurately with this post. I've been trying to understand what was in his head to start a relationship with me when he was still living with BS, lying to me about being separated, later really separating and act in the ways he did... I find xMM in almost everything you wrote. Can you recommend any good books/other resources that deal with this topic in more detail?

[ZMM]

Forgive me if I have it wrong.

 

It sounds like you were having an affair because you avoided confronting the marital issues.

 

I would say both W and me avoided for many years. Her method of avoidance was different than mine, her's was more of guilting me into staying. I was not seeking out someone else. And with OW, I didn't let anything happen for for quite a long time, longer than the A lasted. I actually did not recognize my feelings for her as romantic until a situation brought it to the forefront.

 

You didn't stop to really, clearly weigh any of this out. You didn't fight fit you happiness within the marriage. Not hard enough anyway. That didn't mean you had to work it out, it meant you had to love yourself enough first to not let things spiral so far. To hand control of your happiness over to first your wife and then your OW.

 

You are right, at the beginning I did not stop to figure out what I was doing and what was my best course of action. That was a big mistake.

 

Maybe you're a great worker, or a comedian at parties or even a great friend or Dad or whatever. But you're missing something that would give yiursekf enough respect to say "stop, weren't not going to be this unhappy anymore. We're going to figure this sh*t out first and foremost, because dammit I'm a lovable/likeable guy, I deserve to be happy. And if I don't deserve to be happy I tesorct myself enough to get myself to become a guy that deserves to be happy. Fu*k this isolated unhappy marriage crap. I'm going to do my damnedest to fix me, fix this pissy marriage and if I can't, I'm going to know I damned well tried and deserve happiness elsewhere. Time to sh*t or get off of the pot."

 

Do you know why that type of thought didn't stick? And why it hasn't yet?

 

This may sound odd, but it seemed like a lot of the people I knew were in unhappy marriages and I thought that was just the way marriages were. Of course, several of those couples have divorced, but not most of them.

 

And I don't know, but it is starting to stick now. I'll be having some discussions with W, very soon.

 

Do you like to read?

 

Yes I like to read.

 

 

THANKS.

[krazikat]

I would say both W and me avoided for many years. Her method of avoidance was different than mine, her's was more of guilting me into staying. I was not seeking out someone else. And with OW, I didn't let anything happen for for quite a long time, longer than the A lasted. I actually did not recognize my feelings for her as romantic until a situation brought it to the forefront.

 

 

 

You are right, at the beginning I did not stop to figure out what I was doing and what was my best course of action. That was a big mistake.

 

 

 

This may sound odd, but it seemed like a lot of the people I knew were in unhappy marriages and I thought that was just the way marriages were. Of course, several of those couples have divorced, but not most of them.

 

And I don't know, but it is starting to stick now. I'll be having some discussions with W, very soon.

 

 

 

Yes I like to read.

 

 

THANKS.

 

How did your wife guilt you into staying? Have you ever told her you wanted to leave? I see excuses for your poor behavior...man up and talk to your wife. You are stealing her freedom.

[ZMM]

man up and talk to your wife. You are stealing her freedom.

 

Yes, I am currently doing that.

 

As far as how she guilted me into staying, she did it dozens of times by telling me how she gave up everything for me. Which I guess in some ways she did, but not by my request. I actually encouraged the opposite and her changing and becoming totally dependent on me, drove me absolutely nuts and always has. And I told her that ad nauseam.

[flowingmane]

Yes, I am currently doing that.

 

As far as how she guilted me into staying, she did it dozens of times by telling me how she gave up everything for me. Which I guess in some ways she did, but not by my request. I actually encouraged the opposite and her changing and becoming totally dependent on me, drove me absolutely nuts and always has. And I told her that ad nauseam.

 

Oh sh**.

 

This is very similar to where MM and I have been in the conversation we just had last weekend. (minus the totally dependent part) You are now making me think that I have driven him away for good.

 

Without going into identifiable details (damn I need PM to get your feedback), the decisions I had to make this summer put me in a position where I gave up a lot for our relationship. He knows it, it was extremely hard on us It's started to mess with my head.

 

He gave up a lot too, btw. But he doesn't share his feelings on that so I'm kind of left guessing .

Edited December 26, 2013 by flowingmane
too much detail

[ZMM]

Forgive me but why is Vanellope being hijacked here???

 

 

ZMM sorry you are being attacked but this is not your thread.

 

You are right - sorry about that. I will answer Flowingmane and then bow out of this thread.

[ZMM]

Oh sh**.

 

This is very similar to where MM and I have been in the conversation we just had last weekend. (minus the totally dependent part) You are now making me think that I have driven him away for good.

 

Without going into identifiable details (damn I need PM to get your feedback), the decisions I had to make this summer put me in a position where I gave up a lot for our relationship. He knows it, it was extremely hard on us It's started to mess with my head.

 

I hope you are not projecting my situation with my W on to yours. I doubt it is the same. With my W, what did she give up -

 

Her job that she hated - at her choice

 

Her friends. I told her that it was unhealthy to not ever see her friends. But after we got married she had no interest in seeing any of them. To me, it seemed like her friends were just there to hang out with until she got a Man. That is the total opposite of me.

 

That is about it. I was never comfortable with me being her whole life. I was never comfortable with her being totally dependent on me. And when I say dependent, I am talking about a whole lot of things.

 

Sorry, start a new thread and we can discuss it. Somebody pointed out that OPs thread is being highjacked.

 

Sorry OP.

[flowingmane]

You are right - sorry about that. I will answer Flowingmane and then bow out of this thread.

 

Me too. Apologies Vanellope. I want to be supportive of your situation if I can help. I was just shocked into a response to ZMM. Going elsewhere.