My wife now has trust issues with me using this forum.

[ThatMan]

A lot of people are viewing this as a power struggle to be won or lost.

 

I have a very different philosophy: engage the power struggle, and everyone loses. The relationship loses.

 

The argument isn't really about loveshack, anyway. It's about trust issues, so address them.

 

You can be strong (not backing down) by INSISTING on marriage counseling. Make the appt, and go alone if she won't go. You don't have to continue hurtful behaviors (venting on public boards) to show strength. That's false strength.

 

Yes, she should dump her facebook private groups and venting, too. You can be strong by insisting on that, too. Venting outside the marriage is NOT necessary. Neither my H nor I engage in that behavior. If there is a problem, we talk to each other. If WE need help, we'll get help. We have enlisted the help of family counseling in the past, primarily due to a child issue, but ultimately it was a co-parenting issue as well. I'm not suggesting a path I haven't been willing to walk myself.

 

Stand up for things that are in the best interest of the marriage. Not the things that are only in your own best interest.

 

Just because you've enjoyed a relationship while conducting yourself a particular way does NOT somehow make social support hurtful. You have no business saying that his girlfriend should not have facebook groups. Any licensed professional will emphasize how significant it is for an individual's health and personal well-being to have the mere availability of people to talk with. I really believe you have the wrong idea behind the negative consequences of venting from that blog you've posted earlier. If the discussion of that blog was centered strictly around relationships, there would be a different discussion entirely.

 

Murray Bowen, the psychiatrist who is regarded to be the pioneer of family therapy, introduced an idea called triangulation to describe certain behavior. This is dysfunctional behavior is observed when people in relationships come across an area of conflict, they avoid dealing directly with the conflict by addressing it with one another, and rather draw in a third party as a way to ease the tension.

 

Here's an example of triangulation:

My Ex went online to a third party and talk trash about me. She could have chosen to simply just go to the person she was in conflict with, me, and addressed me directly. But she did not approach me at all. I was left in the dark and kept unaware of any problems. Neither of us could work on our problems. Worst still, triangulation drove us further apart.

 

Triangulation, which can sometimes be a dysfunctional form of 'venting', allows people to avoid dealing with their own relationship. Triangulation causes people to feel validated their opposition between each other, rather than a couple who should be mutually supportive. This is a power struggle and it shouldn't happen. Both Elliotte and his wife need to familiarize themselves with the topic and mutually agree to not begin triangulation while talking to any third party. But they have every right to sort through their own feelings to decide what's best from them as individuals.

[ThatMan]

Just because you've enjoyed a relationship while conducting yourself a particular way does NOT somehow make social support hurtful. You have no business saying that his girlfriend should not have facebook groups.

I'm sorry - I meant to refer to her as a wife.

He's not giving it up. He's showing good faith... under the condition that she also shows good faith by seeking counseling or some sort of mediation where they both get their concerns addressed.

This behavior is codependency and it sets the foundations for the rest of a relationship in a very negative way.

Frankly, all the hardball stances suggested here are pointless; if it even gets to the point where you find yourself continually feeling like you need to 'fight against the oppression' , it's pretty much the beginning of the end. It doesn't even matter whether or not playing hardball wins or loses you the argument, you've already lost in all the ways that matter.

This is not a hopeless situation.

 

I strongly recommend individual therapy. You can also look into a series of books:

Setting Boundaries in Relationships, By Judy H. Wright

Various publications By Charles Whitfield

Boundaries, By Cloud & Townsend

[Lokie]

Chiming in late without reading all the posts… a LS favorite, I know :-(

 

Her trust issues have nothing to do with the OP. They are her personal insecurity and would happen with any man. OP, I'm glad you are a faithful, loving husband - because then she may have an opportunity to heal this issue in partnership with you.

 

I wasn't as fortunate. I had to heal my insecurity issues with deceitful, cheating men, but it IS possible to heal them. There is a leap of faith involved, along with a lot of work on our own personal self worth and self esteem.

 

Wishing you luck,

L.

[gaius]

He's not giving it up. He's showing good faith... under the condition that she also shows good faith by seeking counseling or some sort of mediation where they both get their concerns addressed.

 

In my parent's case, one of them SAID they were going to stop certain behaviors and didn't. Appeals for counseling went ignored. So they separated for a time. It was during that period that they both learned a lot about each other and themselves... and came together in the spirit of mutual reconciliation where they both admitted things that caused problems.

 

It was also during a period where many marriages split... right after the kids leave the nest. It was a tipping point of sorts.

 

They wouldn't have stayed together or come back together if one or both dug their heels in and refused to budge. But yes, it took one of them moving out before the other took them seriously. It shouldn't have been that way, but it was... They don't let things get to that point anymore and have since learned a lot about communicating. They are also both strong believers in the value of marriage. Another critical component.

I would imagine your parents aren't that manipulative since you're not. That stuff usually gets passed on. But for people who are, therapy and counseling is not that effective from what I've seen first hand. It just becomes another tool for manipulation. Giving in to what they want is even less effective. Elliot's wife certainly qualifies as manipulative.

 

He stopped posting anyway so it seems like she either followed through on her threat, read what he said and whipped him back into servitude or he followed the ladies advice and gave up what she wanted while getting nothing in return. It's not a power struggle when one person has no power and is being held to standards the demanding person isn't following themselves.

[Keenly]

I find quite the opposite in the real world. Men divorce their cheating wives right away usually, while women are expected to move past it and understand he is just "being a guy" and guys are "biologically wired to spread their seed"

 

Venture into the Cheating forums here, seriously...men are given far less trouble for cheating. I read 2 threads where it is the same exact scenario but the genders flipped, men are judged less for *any* behavior connected to cheating such as oogling the opposite sex, flirting, being friends with an ex, and actual cheating.

 

So do you intend to just comment on every single thread about how much you hate men and you feel like they get away with whatever they want while simultaneously playing all women out to be victims?

[Keenly]

When I see "don't engage in the power struggle" I hear "back down and don't fight for how you feel"

[Woggle]

People need to take a hard line stance against cheating no matter what gender they are. If people can't be faithful they shouldn't be in a monogomaus relationship.

[Woggle]

Everybody here knows I have had major trust issues that at times have cause me to doubt my relationship but I have never asked my wife to change her behavior because of it. I always knew deep down it was my issue and she doesn't not deserve for me to take it out on her. If the OP's girlfriend wants a healthy relationship she needs to learn how to do that and try to overcome those issues.

[ThatMan]

I would imagine your parents aren't that manipulative since you're not. That stuff usually gets passed on. But for people who are, therapy and counseling is not that effective from what I've seen first hand. It just becomes another tool for manipulation. Giving in to what they want is even less effective. Elliot's wife certainly qualifies as manipulative.

 

He stopped posting anyway so it seems like she either followed through on her threat, read what he said and whipped him back into servitude or he followed the ladies advice and gave up what she wanted while getting nothing in return. It's not a power struggle when one person has no power and is being held to standards the demanding person isn't following themselves.

When I see "don't engage in the power struggle" I hear "back down and don't fight for how you feel"

 

People should never enter relationship counseling with is ongoing abuse or exploitation. Those who mistreat or control others are typically inclined to twist ongoing problems in a relationship to validate destructive behaviors. Many therapists who offer relationship counseling refuse to take on clients when abuse is involved.

 

Individual therapy is always a good decision because it helps people not only sort through their own feelings, but also remain in a healthy position to work through problems in interpersonal relationships.

 

I'm just a bit shocked. The entire point of the blog posted by xxoo is to emphasize the importance in prioritizing objectively working through a problem rather than complain with no purpose. That idea shouldn't be misconstrued as justification for isolating yourself. That's like the author of the blog, to flippantly suggest that venting on their counseling hotline is bad, and therefor you shouldn't speak to counselors at all to fix unhealthy venting. What?!

 

Isolation is universally viewed as being incredibly bad for your health and relationships.

Edited December 26, 2013 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Potential commercial advertising redacted.

[RedRobin]

I would imagine your parents aren't that manipulative since you're not. That stuff usually gets passed on. But for people who are, therapy and counseling is not that effective from what I've seen first hand. It just becomes another tool for manipulation. Giving in to what they want is even less effective. Elliot's wife certainly qualifies as manipulative.

 

He stopped posting anyway so it seems like she either followed through on her threat, read what he said and whipped him back into servitude or he followed the ladies advice and gave up what she wanted while getting nothing in return. It's not a power struggle when one person has no power and is being held to standards the demanding person isn't following themselves.

 

 

Well, you are correct about that. My marriage ended the minute I realized that any and all attempts for me to heal, understand, discuss, or in any way negotiate something that enhanced intimacy and lead to BOTH of our needs being met were discouraged by my now ex-H.

 

 

It's not giving in. It's giving benefit of the doubt while some solution is sought. If, like me, he finds that all attempts to have their mutual needs met are dodged, avoided, or discouraged... then I imagine their marriage will be over... like mine. It may even be the case that his wife is cheating, just like mine was because... like my ex-H, maybe she doesn't think marriages require any effort on her part and everything is about her. We will see....

 

 

For some people, relationships are all about power and who is 'in charge'. I do my best to avoid those people.

[Els]

I've known a woman who wasn't allowed to go outside without her boyfriend's presence. She was asked to quit her job and she did as an offer of good faith. This woman rationalized that quitting her job was okay because she really wanted her relationship to work. But her actions did not force her boyfriend to behave one way or the other. Would any of you tell her to not engage in a power struggle with her boyfriend? Why or why not?

 

I would not. I'd tell her to leave. I'd tell the OP the same thing if his wife told him he couldn't go outside without her presence and he had to quit his job, too.

 

That's rather more extreme than 'I'm not comfortable with you using LS', though, don't you think?

[Els]

This is not a hopeless situation.

 

Of course it isn't.

 

It just becomes hopeless when both parties think that the best way out of it is to engage in a power struggle.

[ThatMan]

I would not. I'd tell her to leave. I'd tell the OP the same thing if his wife told him he couldn't go outside without her presence and he had to quit his job, too.

 

That's rather more extreme than 'I'm not comfortable with you using LS', though, don't you think?

It's a bad situation. I think any extremes are bad, even if they're distinctly unique. I would appreciate a genuine conversation with Elliotte instead of debating other people. I do believe he is living with an extreme when an internet forum is the only place the poor guy may freely talk to work through his problems. Controlling behaviors are wrong. Elliotte's wife supposedly fought, frantically searched through his facebook and text messages, expressed intent to search through his LoveShack posts with threats of retaliation, and you are out of line to suggest that she simply expressed one concern in a tactful manner.

 

It just becomes hopeless when both parties think that the best way out of it is to engage in a power struggle.

It saddens me that there seems to be niche groups who swear up and down that this is a power struggle. Possessing but one small shred of personal consideration is not a power struggle. We must be individuals and not lose ourselves within a relationship. When we willing toss aside our own personal considerations for the sake of attempting to force a relationship to work, we are depending on a relationship for our own happiness. We set ourselves up for failure and disappointment by not seeking our own fulfillment. This makes relationships difficult to establish and healthy ones hard to maintain. It sets unrealistic burdens on partners to provide for our own needs. This is codependency and it should not be encouraged by anyone.

[Els]

It's a bad situation. I think any extremes are bad, even if they're distinctly unique. I would appreciate a genuine conversation with Elliotte instead of debating other people.

 

Address him then, rather than comment on or quote others' posts?

 

It saddens me that there seems to be niche groups who swear up and down that this is a power struggle. Possessing but one small shred of personal consideration is not a power struggle. We must be individuals and not lose ourselves within a relationship. When we willing toss aside our own personal considerations for the sake of attempting to force a relationship to work, we are depending on a relationship for our own happiness. We set ourselves up for failure and disappointment by not seeking our own fulfillment. This makes relationships difficult to establish and healthy ones hard to maintain. It sets unrealistic burdens on partners to provide for our own needs. This is codependency and it should not be encouraged by anyone.

 

Having two-way communication and talking about potential compromises is absolutely not codependency or 'setting unrealistic burdens'.

 

Let's put it this way. If your partner is consistently unwilling to talk to you about your personal considerations, and you find yourself consistently needing to 'fight for them' against your partner... Why are you still with them?

 

And if the relationship were indeed salvageable and your partner was willing to work with you to solve it... Why is there a need to fight for yourself?

 

Your stance on this is utterly confusing. One moment you say the R isn't hopeless and he shouldn't leave, another moment you say she is abusing and isolating him and communication/counselling won't solve a thing. Which is it?

[Ninjainpajamas]

First off, her trust issues are her own....nothing in the world you do will change that. They were there to begin with, before you and will be there hypothetically after you.

 

There's nothing you can do to resolve issues that manifest from within ones self...if it does not reside from within the relationship....the actual source...then what exactly is it that you think you are trying to "fix"? you're trying to fix the person, not yourself or the behavior you are engaging in....because if that person has trust issues...whatever it is that you do will someone be scrutinized and turned into a possible threat...and that's what it is to these people....it's all about threats and perceived threats....whether you go home every day and sit in dark room and stare at the corner of a wall will only keep her in a somewhat "calm" state and I stress the word calm because what she is really is doing is just waiting for something to pop up or she thinks something could that she just might not be seeing.

 

So really...your behavior, your weak words of assurance will only apply a temporary patch....just like any addict they're going to relapse into a cycle as soon as they feel vulnerable again.

 

Now I'm not sure how serious the situation is in your relationship, I didn't read much of the following up posts...but I did want to tell you to stop thinking about it as your problem or even your relationship problem, because it is her problem...it really has little to do with you, blame her daddy issues/abandonment issues or the men she dated in the past that cheated on her...but now conveniently that is your problem...why do you think she wants a relationship anyway? so someone is there to support her and make it all better.

 

I didn't check your posting history, but dating a woman with trust issues should've have been a red flag to her one day finding out about your little venting arena...women always want to know what men are thinking and saying in their lives, even if they supposedly "trust them".....my @ss they trust you, because they want to know what you're saying and thinking and expressing out to the world, because the reality there are just somethings women will never know about how a man truly feels or thinks unfiltered...all the conditioned relationship talk that avoids any hot button issues or causes a woman to go into a panic is better left unsaid...most men learn that from experience....the truth tends to get you into more trouble and with more problems than it is worth.

 

It's like North Korea, you're not supposed to live or think outside the bubble, sharing and venting to people outside of that controlled environment is dangerous because the bubble is vulnerable, and any outside ideals, emotions or thoughts only risk to jeopardize that safety net that so many insecure women struggle to hold together...not because of you, but because of their own insecurities and issues, they're worried that you will leave them or drop the bomb on them and then everything immediately unravels.

 

But again...you couldn't make that bubble weak if it isn't a bubble and you're open, honest, expressive and communicative in your relationship....however there's always that little but of truth and transparency that is off limits.

 

In short my advice, have the mods delete all your posts you're worried about....otherwise, fear the reaper...you can bet she's a comin.

[RedRobin]

yea, yea Ninja...

 

 

Plenty of us know what lots of men think and say unfiltered...

 

 

We just expect to hear important things first from him... not get our information second hand. Nor do we want strangers privy to our private lives just so he can feel like a 'man' and 'in control'.

 

 

I don't put up with it when my female friends trash their H's either. Especially if they haven't shared their frustrations with their H first... and if they can't talk to their spouse about these things... then yea... that's where counseling comes in.

 

 

BOTH people bring things into the relationship from situations and experiences outside of them and preceeding them. It is just as likely that she's dealing with issues of his that has nothing to do with her either. That's the beauty of a healthy relationship... a supposedly safe place where both people can work out their personal issues (within reason).

[Ninjainpajamas]

Doesn't matter what you expect...it's what you can realistically accomplish...are you going to go to your insecure partner to talk about something that you know they're not going to listen to what you're saying or feeling but only going to hang on every word and the moment you expose this little avenue that you look for something...anything, outside the relationship and that's all they focus on and hear?

 

Hell...people do that enough on LS, selective listening, conditioned to only hearing exactly what they choose to hear or agree with...otherwise the rest is pure fallacy and "negative" thinking, why? because it infringes on their own little capsule of how the world....and especially their relationships work.

 

It doesn't matter how transparent and honest you are in a relationship, at some point your partner will not be able to relate or understand everything....there will always be subjects or topics better left discussed with someone who at least understands where you are coming from....but do you think this woman cares? do you think she truly desires to understand her husband and care for him and his needs? of course not...in theory, that's what she thinks she is accomplishing or doing, in practice her insecurities and issues only bring issues to the relationship that wouldn't otherwise exist...he becomes confused and distraught thinking that he can do or say something that will help her establish a deeper trust within the relationship.....but that is a fools bet, because it isn't anything he is doing in the first place to breach trust, so what exactly does he have to explain or answer for?

 

But of course, like the expectation of nearly all women....you are expected to come to the woman first (regardless of it's ineffectiveness) to a woman who is already hindered by her own emotions (which inhibit her clear understanding and objectivity to what you are saying) and insecurities (which dictate her reaction) that only allow her to see her partners issues up until the point where they infringe on her own personal feelings...and from then on the "understanding" gets tossed right out the window.

 

You know what she's going to do? read every single thread this guy ever made, every comment (until she gets the general idea) and every female that she perceives to be a threat that he has spoken to, and she'll definitely want to know if any personal messages or conversations are had to really get the blood flowing.

 

Most people in general don't take responsibility for their own actions and issues...therefore this whole "safe" place in a relationship in which they can so carelessly punish their partner with their own problems that they always had or had because of some other event...this other person must be thereby obligated to resolving them...not because they can, or even will, not because there is any method or understanding of how to accomplish that....it's the the good ole "working through your problems and issues together"....what there really is, is your issues and their issues....but maybe if you worked on yourself and fixed your own issues in the first place, maybe you wouldn't have to work through them in a relationship! but no no, that's what relationships are for....the struggle, the support, the companionship all for something YOU are bringing into the relationship alone and are the only person who can therefore fix it.

 

You know there's a reason why you can't be romantically involved with a therapist and still accomplish working their your issues/problems...but of course that matters little to people who wish for their partner to be their support partner/therapist and then at the same time somehow help them resolve their own issues (because ultimately people are fine with their problems as long as someone is willing to stick it out with them for it and coddle them) with the mess and distortion of emotions and psychological triggers.

 

The "beauty of a healthy relationship" is not two unhealthy individuals dumping their issues on the other person mutually...but if that's what floats your boat. I don't know how you can see that as anything but unhealthy at it's foundation.

 

Fix your own shet people...stop expecting someone to hold your hand through it or help you get over that hump because you've decided you can't get through it alone...without a kick or a gentle push on your behind...learn your own issues, take responsibility for them, be accountable for what YOU bring into any romantic relationship/dynamic.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Ninjainpajamas

[RedRobin]

Ninja, I get what you are saying... it is what I said upthread a bit... if the person's motivation is not for mutual understanding and growth, then yea, it's a waste of time.

 

 

Regarding using your partner as your therapist... of course, it can't be taken to the extreme... but I've witnessed people making tremendous growth within a relationship with the help of their partner. Growth I know for a fact would be very difficult or even impossible to do alone.... but that's not what people do anymore... they just toss the relationship in the trash and then go find someone new. Rinse. Repeat.