Contact or no?

[Zapbasket]

https://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/427543-ever-felt-befuddled-sense-surreal-end-relationship

 

Above is some history of what went on in the relationship in question. If you look at post #8 that gives a summary of the crowning moment in August that accelerated the relationship's end. Then, a month later of no contact, I wrote suggesting we go to counseling together. If you look at post #53, you see his response.

 

Our last contact was his emailed response to my email requesting counseling together, with at least a face-to-face conversation regardless of whether he wanted counseling with me or not. His email was on October 12. We have neither spoken nor laid eyes on each other since. I have, however, been in regular contact with his mom with her as contact initiator every time. She has made clear, both explicitly and in her continued regular reaching out, that she intends for she and I to continue a relationship. I love her.

 

She does not say much about K, but last week we met for drinks and she said she mentioned with a friend my having gotten a new job, K overheard, and said, "Did GreenCove get a new job?" And his mom said, "Yes...not like you care." She told me he blew up at her, told her to stay out of it and that he did care and this was very hard on him but how can you stay with someone with whom you argue all the time and she is making him out to be "the bad guy," etc.

 

Perhaps that is info besides the point, but...I'm wondering whether it would be reasonable for me to contact him? My feeling so far has been that he refused contact, saying in his Oct. 12 email that "any communication between us seems daunting" and that he needs to "focus on himself." I don't necessarily want to get back together with him, but I did and do care about him a very great deal and feel very sad that we are not in any kind of contact, and that due to him we did not have any opportunity to discuss what happened.

 

I figure, it's the holidays...what would be the harm in reaching out and saying I'm thinking of him, hoping he's well, wanting us to get together to talk if only because of what I thought was a great deal of mutual care for one another.

 

Is that a bad idea? My other mind says that if someone says they don't want to talk, then you give them exactly what they ask for: no communication, unless THEY decide to reach out.

 

I just feel really sad at this long silence. He really means a lot to me, even though I don't think he is necessarily at a point in his life where he is the right guy for me right now. (I want marriage; he is not ready for that kind of commitment.)

 

What do you guys think?

[Simon Phoenix]

No, do not contact. It looks clingy and desperate and if he really wanted contact with you, he'd contact you. And you probably shouldn't be talking to him mom either. It's not her place to decide what her son should or shouldn't be doing with his love life. You need to nip that in the bud -- her keeping in contact with you isn't helping you at all, in fact, it might even be seen as manipulative in his mind and make him that much more hesitant to communicate with you.

 

You are contacting him wanting a specific result, therefore, do not do it.

[Zapbasket]

I hadn't thought of it that way. I hope he doesn't think my contact with his mom is manipulative, especially as I had a professional relationship with her prior to ever dating him, and when I began dating him, I continued also to develop the relationshp with his mom. We still work for the same employer, his mother and I.

 

I did not expect his mother and I to remain in contact, but she has vigorously worked to keep in touch with me and even though at times it is hard for me, I can't bear to hurt her feelings by cutting her off. Also, we will inevitably encounter one another at work.

 

Knowing this history, do you still think K could see my keeping in touch with his mom as "manipulative"? I have made very clear to her that I have no intention of contacting him, since he has shown no change from not wanting contact with me.

[Simon Phoenix]

I hadn't thought of it that way. I hope he doesn't think my contact with his mom is manipulative, especially as I had a professional relationship with her prior to ever dating him, and when I began dating him, I continued also to develop the relationshp with his mom. We still work for the same employer, his mother and I.

 

I did not expect his mother and I to remain in contact, but she has vigorously worked to keep in touch with me and even though at times it is hard for me, I can't bear to hurt her feelings by cutting her off. Also, we will inevitably encounter one another at work.

 

Knowing this history, do you still think K could see my keeping in touch with his mom as "manipulative"? I have made very clear to her that I have no intention of contacting him, since he has shown no change from not wanting contact with me.

 

If you are talking in any way about him and your relationship with him, then yes, he could see it as manipulative. You don't have to be a jerk to his mom, but keep the interaction business only. If she brings up your ex, tell her that you'd rather not discuss him. Don't make a big deal about it, but keep your dealings with the mom work-related. Don't ask her about your ex and don't talk to her about him.

 

And do not contact him for the holidays. He has said he wants space -- give him all the space he wants.

[Zapbasket]

If you are talking in any way about him and your relationship with him, then yes, he could see it as manipulative. You don't have to be a jerk to his mom, but keep the interaction business only. If she brings up your ex, tell her that you'd rather not discuss him. Don't make a big deal about it, but keep your dealings with the mom work-related. Don't ask her about your ex and don't talk to her about him.

 

And do not contact him for the holidays. He has said he wants space -- give him all the space he wants.

 

I let her initiate everything--from our contact to what we talk about. Partly because I am unsure whether it's a positive or negative thing that we are staying in contact. I do love her a lot; she means a lot to me and by her actions and words it's clear I mean a lot to her, as well; but there is this elephant in the room that is my ex and of course whether we talk about him or not when we meet I am going through a lot of pain with the ending of that relationship. I keep the degree of my pain from her; I have only ever said, "It sucks" and "It's hard, but if he doesn't want to talk to me then I intend to give him exactly what he wants." It sounds like he has utterly shut her out and will not talk about me with her. She says she feels shut out and like he avoids her lately. Anything I have said to her, I do not expect to get back to him.

 

Anyway, these holidays are very hard, not getting to spend them with his family and him even though they are right down the road from me. And with my new job, I was unable to leave town to be with my family and close friends as planned.

 

I've been in this place before, where an ex has strongly refused any contact in any way. It is very difficult for me as while I believe in NC after a breakup, I also believe that you sit down together and discuss how things need to go forward--whether separately or together. I also thought, with K, that we had more of a connection than this. I did not at all expect our last face-to-face communication to be the last. I did not get a vibe at all that he was so sure he wanted me out of his life that he was ready to just cut off like this. So I feel very surprised and hurt and wishing so much I could just not be affected by this so much. I love him loads as a person but right now, and with his current behavior and maturity level and attitude, he just can't meet what I need in a long-term relationship. I know this and yet I don't see why there needs to be such an utter cut off. I thought the holidays would be the right kind of situation to say something along the lines of, "Hey there, person I care about so much. How are you and what other thoughts have you had about you and me? I feel sad without you in my life and if you were open to it, I'd sure like to see you--to see you, AND to talk with you about what happened between us. I still love you even while I don't know that we want the same things."

 

I dunno. I feel like an idiot for even contemplating this because it seems reasonable that, if he missed me half as much as I miss him, he'd be making contact.

 

I guess I just don't give up. Am strong that way / am dumb that way. I wish I could see it all differently.

[Simon Phoenix]

I let her initiate everything--from our contact to what we talk about. Partly because I am unsure whether it's a positive or negative thing that we are staying in contact. I do love her a lot; she means a lot to me and by her actions and words it's clear I mean a lot to her, as well; but there is this elephant in the room that is my ex and of course whether we talk about him or not when we meet I am going through a lot of pain with the ending of that relationship. I keep the degree of my pain from her; I have only ever said, "It sucks" and "It's hard, but if he doesn't want to talk to me then I intend to give him exactly what he wants." It sounds like he has utterly shut her out and will not talk about me with her. She says she feels shut out and like he avoids her lately. Anything I have said to her, I do not expect to get back to him.

 

Anyway, these holidays are very hard, not getting to spend them with his family and him even though they are right down the road from me. And with my new job, I was unable to leave town to be with my family and close friends as planned.

 

I've been in this place before, where an ex has strongly refused any contact in any way. It is very difficult for me as while I believe in NC after a breakup, I also believe that you sit down together and discuss how things need to go forward--whether separately or together. I also thought, with K, that we had more of a connection than this. I did not at all expect our last face-to-face communication to be the last. I did not get a vibe at all that he was so sure he wanted me out of his life that he was ready to just cut off like this. So I feel very surprised and hurt and wishing so much I could just not be affected by this so much. I love him loads as a person but right now, and with his current behavior and maturity level and attitude, he just can't meet what I need in a long-term relationship. I know this and yet I don't see why there needs to be such an utter cut off. I thought the holidays would be the right kind of situation to say something along the lines of, "Hey there, person I care about so much. How are you and what other thoughts have you had about you and me? I feel sad without you in my life and if you were open to it, I'd sure like to see you--to see you, AND to talk with you about what happened between us. I still love you even while I don't know that we want the same things."

 

I dunno. I feel like an idiot for even contemplating this because it seems reasonable that, if he missed me half as much as I miss him, he'd be making contact.

 

I guess I just don't give up. Am strong that way / am dumb that way. I wish I could see it all differently.

 

Yeah, your plan of action isn't wise and what you want to say isn't very good -- it puts pressure on him and you are basically putting your heart out there to be smashed by a hammer for no good reason whatsoever. He wants space, give him space. Simple as that. It's great if you want to "discuss" things, but if he doesn't, it's an absolute waste of time and energy. You discuss things during the relationship, not when it is over. Whether you are giving up or not is irrelevant -- you need two to tango and he hasn't given any indication that he wants to tango. You can't bully or manipulate him into feeling something for you or into trying something again. Even if it works in the short term, it will blow up spectacularly shortly after.

 

As far as the mom, if I were him i'd be extremely unnerved by my mom taking my ex's side in something like that. He's not going to talk to her because he knows you are in contact with him and it probably makes him extremely uncomfortable. You really need to nip that in the bud -- it's not good for you, it's not good for him, it's not good for the mother, it's not good for anyone. I'm sure the mom thinks she's helping, but what she's doing is making her son extremely uncomfortable.

 

But in general, it doesn't matter how stubborn you are if he doesn't want it. Use your stubbornness for more constructive avenues, not in trying to convince yourself that your ex wants to talk to you. He knows how to get a hold of you -- hell, all he has to do is talk to his mom.

[Zapbasket]

During the relationship there was a complicated dynamic with his mom's involvement in our relationship. It affected me, as well. I've been in therapy since the summer and my therapist has helped me to see how K is enabled by his family, in all areas including them picking up the slack in our relationship where he was unable to take responsibility.

 

His mom claims that he WANTS her and me to continue communicating. He blew up at her because he knows that while she has HIS back as his mother, she takes MY side. She knows his behavior has been bad both in the relationship and in his decision to just wimp out at the end of it. She has acknowledged that to me (without me saying anything of my own opinion on the matter), and she has told him that, as well.

 

I just think more of putting in some space--hopefully not necessarily permanently--between his mom and me because I fear it keeps me hoping for something between K and me to happen. And I worry what will happen when he begins dating someone else. It hasn't happened yet, but I do see it is a higher probability that he will start seeing other women before I start seeing men. I feel this way because I am in therapy working hard to understand why I choose the men I have chosen to date, and until I feel I have made a shift I don't feel ready to date anyone. I don't get the feeling that K is examining things with any real focus or depth regarding his relationship patterns, or anything else for that matter.

 

Anyway, in addition to not contacting him for the holidays, should I after the holidays, next time his mom contacts me, suggest we take space until this whole K and GreenCove thing is long in the past if it's not meant to regain any new life? It's very hard. I hate to just cut people off...which is why I so hate being the person cut off. Not my style at all.

[Simon Phoenix]

During the relationship there was a complicated dynamic with his mom's involvement in our relationship. It affected me, as well. I've been in therapy since the summer and my therapist has helped me to see how K is enabled by his family, in all areas including them picking up the slack in our relationship where he was unable to take responsibility.

 

His mom claims that he WANTS her and me to continue communicating. He blew up at her because he knows that while she has HIS back as his mother, she takes MY side. She knows his behavior has been bad both in the relationship and in his decision to just wimp out at the end of it. She has acknowledged that to me (without me saying anything of my own opinion on the matter), and she has told him that, as well.

 

I just think more of putting in some space--hopefully not necessarily permanently--between his mom and me because I fear it keeps me hoping for something between K and me to happen. And I worry what will happen when he begins dating someone else. It hasn't happened yet, but I do see it is a higher probability that he will start seeing other women before I start seeing men. I feel this way because I am in therapy working hard to understand why I choose the men I have chosen to date, and until I feel I have made a shift I don't feel ready to date anyone. I don't get the feeling that K is examining things with any real focus or depth regarding his relationship patterns, or anything else for that matter.

 

Anyway, in addition to not contacting him for the holidays, should I after the holidays, next time his mom contacts me, suggest we take space until this whole K and GreenCove thing is long in the past if it's not meant to regain any new life? It's very hard. I hate to just cut people off...which is why I so hate being the person cut off. Not my style at all.

 

Going NC to "wait out" your ex is not really going to help you. You need to go NC to recover from this one and put yourself in a position in the future to have a new relationship with someone else. You need to treat your relationship with your ex as dead -- because it is dead. And you don't want to resume a relationship with him, because the last one didn't work. Going back to that is a waste of everyone's time.

 

As far as what your ex is examining or not examining -- he doesn't have to do anything like that if he doesn't want to. He's not obligated or compelled to analyze a single thing and you can't force him to do that. Reconciliation is a two-person thing -- one person badgering the other isn't going to have any positive effect (I didn't read your last thread, but i can't imagine your desire to go to couples counseling after the break was taken to kindly, nor should it have been. That's not an appropriate request if you are broken up.)

 

As far as the mom, if you have to communicate with her for your job, then do that. But keep it work-related. I know you feel it's mean to "cut her off" but often times, you have to have some sort of cut off to recover. Your ex is doing you a favor by cutting you off (along with doing himself) a favor because you aren't capable of just being friends with him and he knows this. He knows you are angling for something he doesn't want to give you and that keeping in contact would be stressful for both of you.

 

Therefore you have to back off the communication with the mother. It's bad for everyone -- it gives you unwarranted hope and it causes him even more stress in regards to you. And the mom needs to stop meddling -- what she wants is irrelevant.

[Zapbasket]

Please understand I wasn't saying K "had" to do any kind of examining. I was only observing that it is more likely he will enter into a relationship to assuage loneliness--one that might not really be a committed thing--and that therefore he seems more likely to get with someone before I do. K is more comfortable in relationships where less is required; I on the other hand want a committed relationship that leads to increasing commitment and accountability on both sides. I want time away from dating to look at myself, as well, and so given these factors, I'm expecting he'll be involved with someone new before I will. That's ALL I meant. Of course he has no "obligation." None of us really has any obligation to do a damned thing for anyone else...it's just that what we do or do not do says things about us and K's patterns are LESS commitment, not more. So any judgment I give off about what he may or may not do, or is or is not doing, stems from this fact I know about him. Whether it could change or not, I don't know; and I'm aware that even if his capabilities and attitudes about relationships do change, it won't necessarily change what he feels about me.

 

I'm not going to say his behavior is doing me a "favor." You can still agree to meet with someone to have a final clarity about how things need to be going forward. That's where he just wimped out, and people closer to the situation hold this opinion along with me. That's part of what hurts. Perhaps that is not clear from this thread.

 

Whatever, I will not contact him. I am not sure about his mother going forward. I live in a very small town and where we work runs on social out-of-work relationships to function. So a full cut-off is not possible nor desirable.

 

Look. I am the only person I know who has had this happen even once, where there is an utter cut-off of all communication and ties at the end of the relationship. I know more people who maintain some kind of ties than what I have experienced. Even ultimately crossing paths with K is inevitable--and I don't mean just bumping into him at the local stores, but overlapping layers of shared contacts and interests in this small town. That's a large part of why I struggle with this. The other is just values. I think you need distance, sure...and I have distance...but I don't think you just sever everything along neat lines, call it a "favor" and have done with it. In some cases, perhaps, but not as a rule.

 

I will do the right thing, I am sure. Contacting him is not the right thing. Cutting off his mother, not seeming like the right thing. I expect that over time, if nothing happens with K and me, the whole dynamic will continue to shift, as it already has: I'm not over there for the holidays. That's a big thing. Holidays are huge for K's mom and we carry on even though I am no longer a part of that huge part of her life. So. I guess I will just have to see how things unfold, but I also need to talk about my feelings in the process. And my biggest feeling is: it's bloody hard to just have no contact whatsoever. I think it's a bit overkill and I'm not trying to be his "friend" nor do I necessarily want what he's offering in terms of a relationship. It's what broke us up, so of course I have no desire to go back. It's just what could happen if there are any new insights that drive us to talk. I'm not holding out for anything. I've moved forward more than he has, anyway, in terms of new job, new friends, etc.

[Simon Phoenix]

You don't need the mythical "closure" talk to get closure. And almost every one of my broken relationships has had a "cut off" of communication. The only two of mine that didn't was a high school one -- basically because she was hooked on me and I was absolutely acting as a cake-eater -- and a college one which was completely mutual with no hard feeling on a relationship that was pretty casual in nature.

 

I mean, you can spin all sorts of reasons why you need to be in contact with this person or his family, but you don't really need to be. You'd be just fine -- better off probably -- if you didn't do it. But like you said originally, you are stubborn and you are going to fight, even when there's nothing to fight for. Either way, I gave my two cents. It seems like you know what you want to do, so have fun with it.

[ConfusedHumanBeing]

Please understand I wasn't saying K "had" to do any kind of examining. I was only observing that it is more likely he will enter into a relationship to assuage loneliness--one that might not really be a committed thing--and that therefore he seems more likely to get with someone before I do. K is more comfortable in relationships where less is required; I on the other hand want a committed relationship that leads to increasing commitment and accountability on both sides. I want time away from dating to look at myself, as well, and so given these factors, I'm expecting he'll be involved with someone new before I will. That's ALL I meant. Of course he has no "obligation." None of us really has any obligation to do a damned thing for anyone else...it's just that what we do or do not do says things about us and K's patterns are LESS commitment, not more. So any judgment I give off about what he may or may not do, or is or is not doing, stems from this fact I know about him. Whether it could change or not, I don't know; and I'm aware that even if his capabilities and attitudes about relationships do change, it won't necessarily change what he feels about me.

 

I'm not going to say his behavior is doing me a "favor." You can still agree to meet with someone to have a final clarity about how things need to be going forward. That's where he just wimped out, and people closer to the situation hold this opinion along with me. That's part of what hurts. Perhaps that is not clear from this thread.

 

Whatever, I will not contact him. I am not sure about his mother going forward. I live in a very small town and where we work runs on social out-of-work relationships to function. So a full cut-off is not possible nor desirable.

 

Look. I am the only person I know who has had this happen even once, where there is an utter cut-off of all communication and ties at the end of the relationship. I know more people who maintain some kind of ties than what I have experienced. Even ultimately crossing paths with K is inevitable--and I don't mean just bumping into him at the local stores, but overlapping layers of shared contacts and interests in this small town. That's a large part of why I struggle with this. The other is just values. I think you need distance, sure...and I have distance...but I don't think you just sever everything along neat lines, call it a "favor" and have done with it. In some cases, perhaps, but not as a rule.

 

I will do the right thing, I am sure. Contacting him is not the right thing. Cutting off his mother, not seeming like the right thing. I expect that over time, if nothing happens with K and me, the whole dynamic will continue to shift, as it already has: I'm not over there for the holidays. That's a big thing. Holidays are huge for K's mom and we carry on even though I am no longer a part of that huge part of her life. So. I guess I will just have to see how things unfold, but I also need to talk about my feelings in the process. And my biggest feeling is: it's bloody hard to just have no contact whatsoever. I think it's a bit overkill and I'm not trying to be his "friend" nor do I necessarily want what he's offering in terms of a relationship. It's what broke us up, so of course I have no desire to go back. It's just what could happen if there are any new insights that drive us to talk. I'm not holding out for anything. I've moved forward more than he has, anyway, in terms of new job, new friends, etc.

 

Why come on here if you're just going to argue against what other users are saying?

 

Everything Simon said is 1000 percent correct. QUIT TALKING TO HIS MOM!!

 

You are holding out for him. We can all see it.

[Why so consistent]

Why come on here if you're just going to argue against what other users are saying?

 

Everything Simon said is 1000 percent correct. QUIT TALKING TO HIS MOM!!

 

You are holding out for him. We can all see it.

 

Simon is right confused is right listen to them !!! and nothing LEFT u got me ?

[Zapbasket]

The thing is, I DON'T know. I think so far I have done the right things; I think it was reasonable given certain specifics to have reached out suggesting counseling together, and I think, after he wrote me telling me he didn't want us to talk at all, in counseling or out, I have done the right thing in giving him what he wants and not contacting him. I have continued working to improve myself and my life, and so far it hasn't seemed an absolute imperative or the wise thing to completely cut off his mom. Small, small, small town I live in.

 

It's hard to know what is "right" when I see that I did and do love K very much. He means a lot to me, and I will remember him that way. At the same time, he can't give me what I'm looking for in a long-term partnership; he knows it and I know it, too. My feelings pull me in other directions, though--wishing I could have accepted him exactly the way he was, without needing more. And yet also feeling justified and even HEALTHY for wanting more and finally giving him an ultimatum that freed both of us when he could not meet the ultimatum and decided to walk.

 

Knowing it's "right" that we are not together doesn't, sadly, kill the feelings I have for him. He really got under my skin, in ways good as well as bad. (He had a penchant stemming from a vestigial child part of him of relishing getting under my skin.)

 

Feelings make knowing what is right to do a murky thing. I guess I could just cut off everything associated with him, but I'd have to work pretty hard to fully avoid his mom as well as him. I think talking about it here is the best thing I can do, and with time and work on myself and thought and whatever events crop up and other people's actions, perhaps things will become clear. I guess it's clear I should not put my heart so completely on the line by reaching out to him, especially when I'm not necessarily saying I want to get back together.

 

And re: closure, it wasn't about that, more honoring what was. But people have all kinds of feelings about that word, "closure." I think it means as many things as the people who give it meaning. I think, so far, with his mom and me, we're doing that: honoring what was, and hopefully paving the way for there always to be a fondness for each other and an open line of communication, even if the nature and frequencly of that communication changes as time goes on.

 

That, I suppose, is what I also wish I could have with K, this person I care so much about. But I tried to bring it about and he shot it down and I just have to go with that, I suppose. It makes me sad because it didn't seem from my vantage point that it has to be this way. From his, obviously, it does. So there it is.

[Zapbasket]

Why come on here if you're just going to argue against what other users are saying?

 

Everything Simon said is 1000 percent correct. QUIT TALKING TO HIS MOM!!

 

You are holding out for him. We can all see it.

 

I'm not arguing, just responding with my feelings. Just EXPLORING my feelings out loud in response to what is being said to me. That's it--it's what a board like LS is for. Or what I choose to use it as. A thinking tool--because it has to be my own mind and heart that decides what I do, not just obediently following strangers on a board. Or even my IRL friends or my family. I'm listening. It has to make organic sense to ME, no, for the decisions I make to matter?

[ConfusedHumanBeing]

I'm not arguing, just responding with my feelings. Just EXPLORING my feelings out loud in response to what is being said to me. That's it--it's what a board like LS is for. Or what I choose to use it as. A thinking tool--because it has to be my own mind and heart that decides what I do, not just obediently following strangers on a board. Or even my IRL friends or my family. I'm listening. It has to make organic sense to ME, no, for the decisions I make to matter?

 

Explore your feelings with a diary.

 

We're not telling you what to do there hon. Giving you advice. You do what you're doing, I promise you it will fail. Listen...don't listen....I don't really give a s*** at this point.

 

Good luck to you.

[Simon Phoenix]

Feelings are nice, but they have to be balanced out by rationality. When I was a kid sitting in the back seat, I felt like I wanted to open the back door of my parents' car when it was traveling at full speed on the highway to see what would happen. But I never did. Why? Because I knew that 99 percent of the possible outcomes were bad. You can't just follow your feelings, your rational mind needs to be part of the equation to.

 

I mean, the mental gymnastics are fun, but if he doesn't want to talk to you, you can't (nor should you) force him to. Having a last conversation isn't proper -- let's be real, you want it so you can try to get him back. That's why you wanted to break NC in the first place. It has nothing to do with "setting a final scene of fondness". If you want him to look back on you fondly, why not just chill out and not only leave him alone, but stop talking to his mother about non-work things? Why not just let things be and see where life takes them? I mean, you are doing more damage to this fantasy of "fondness" by being best buds with his mom than you would be if you just stepped back and gave the entire situation room to breathe. And this whole fantasy of a happy ending in a breakup is just that -- as Tom Cruise says in the movie Cocktail "Everything ends badly. If it didn't, it wouldn't end."

 

You need to chill out, you need to get your feelings under control, you need to stop overthinking everything. There's way too much analysis going on -- which shows that you are indeed not in any position to be talking to him or to other people aligned with him. I mean, there's a difference between being stubborn and being obtuse -- you are walking the line.

[Zapbasket]

Explore your feelings with a diary.

 

We're not telling you what to do there hon. Giving you advice. You do what you're doing, I promise you it will fail. Listen...don't listen....I don't really give a s*** at this point.

 

Good luck to you.

 

No need to be rude. You don't know what I am doing. Curb it, Confused.

[ConfusedHumanBeing]

No need to be rude. You don't know what I am doing. Curb it, Confused.

 

Wasn't mean its being honest. Something you might need to be with yourself.

 

Listen to Simon if you don't want to listen to me. Your story is no different than anyone else's on here.

 

Leave him and his family alone and go no contact.