I'm not that woman (or man)!

[RedRobin]

So, I was pondering a few threads posted here... and of course, my own recent dating history.

 

A guy I dumped two and a half years ago emailed me recently. Admitting he'd been a bit of a sh*t back then and felt bad about it... Wanted to know if I would agree to get together for coffee.

 

For a brief minute, I considered agreeing to the meeting, but then I remembered this....

 

I?m Not That Woman. An Ode For Every Woman Who Has Loved, Lost and Forgotten Her Value | Baggage Reclaim by Natalie Lue

 

I came across this awhile back, and thought the folks of LS might appreciate it. If you are a guy, just replace he with she, etc.

[Eggplant]

So you think the guy inviting you to coffee is just trying to use you?

 

Hopefully you'll meet a sincere man soon. You have a lot of armor up to defend against the jerks.

[carhill]

OP, I'm a bit older than you and haven't yet met a tiger who changed its stripes. More commonly, such patterns are those of the practiced social chameleon, who banks on the memories of the past to fade. In the interim, they've been practicing the same patter on other people. It's a lifestyle. The kind of people I call Hoovers are expert at it. Success generally turns upon attractiveness and popularity, in that the more attractive and socially successful a person is, the more likely they will succeed at this type of Hoovering. People, in general, are interchangeable. If this one doesn't give them what they want in the moment, no problem. Move on to the next one. The individual is largely irrelevant.

 

Fortunately, I've rarely met women who are like that. When I've been Hoovered, catch them and they move on, they don't return for a repeat performance. This is likely due to abundance mentality, in that, with the surplus of men in my demographic, the Hoovers don't have to recycle and re-use. They simply find new potentials. It works. Good luck.

[RedRobin]

So you think the guy inviting you to coffee is just trying to use you?

 

Hopefully you'll meet a sincere man soon. You have a lot of armor up to defend against the jerks.

 

Well, if he weren't a total jerk, he wouldn't have waited 2.5 years to tell me that... and when he is now single and throwing out the cast net.

 

When *I* have done something wrong that I regret, I make amends as soon as reasonably possible... not when apologizing might work to my benefit.

 

There are a lot of jerks around here. Can't spit and not hit one. It's why I'm trying to move. Before I become like them.

[RedRobin]

OP, I'm a bit older than you and haven't yet met a tiger who changed its stripes. More commonly, such patterns are those of the practiced social chameleon, who banks on the memories of the past to fade. In the interim, they've been practicing the same patter on other people. It's a lifestyle. The kind of people I call Hoovers are expert at it. Success generally turns upon attractiveness and popularity, in that the more attractive and socially successful a person is, the more likely they will succeed at this type of Hoovering. People, in general, are interchangeable. If this one doesn't give them what they want in the moment, no problem. Move on to the next one. The

individual is largely irrelevant.

 

Yea, that was my impression too.

 

Fortunately, I've rarely met women who are like that. When I've been Hoovered, catch them and they move on, they don't return for a repeat performance.

 

Lucky you!! Just about every guy I've ever dated has tried to ping me for another chance. I can practically bank on it. Not because I've ever broken up and taken them back... but I imagine lots of women do so they try it with me too. Abundance mentality, yep.

 

This is likely due to abundance mentality, in that, with the surplus of men in my demographic, the Hoovers don't have to recycle and re-use. They simply find new potentials. It works. Good luck

.

 

Thanks! Yea, not sure why these guys feel the need to try and recycle with me. Seems like there are pah-lenty of potentials for them around here.

 

I was telling my mom this morning that I'm starting to feel like I'm being chased by dating 'zombies'... If one bites you, you end up like them, lol. I'm very put off to the idea of trying to date as long as I live here.

Edited December 18, 2013 by RedRobin

[Under The Radar]

Well, if he weren't a total jerk, he wouldn't have waited 2.5 years to tell me that... and when he is now single and throwing out the cast net.

 

When *I* have done something wrong that I regret, I make amends as soon as reasonably possible... not when apologizing might work to my benefit.

 

There are a lot of jerks around here. Can't spit and not hit one. It's why I'm trying to move. Before I become like them.

 

 

Not saying this guy isn't a jerk, but sometimes it can take some distance and introspection to realize you wronged someone.

 

*I*, like you, want to make amends as soon as possible when I've done something wrong.

 

I'm just saying that in the future it might help to realize that sometimes people are slow to see the pain they have caused.

 

It doesn't mean you have to be friends or begin dating again.

 

However, it might be nice to know that they truly are remorseful for the strife they may have inflicted upon you in the past.

 

I agree, in this instance, that your forgiveness and time might be wasted on this man who is looking to pull you into another relationship.

 

Just some food for thought (though I'm sure you already know this stuff) .

[RedRobin]

Not saying this guy isn't a jerk, but sometimes it can take some distance and introspection to realize you wronged someone.

 

*I*, like you, want to make amends as soon as possible when I've done something wrong.

 

I'm just saying that in the future it might help to realize that sometimes people are slow to see the pain they have caused.

 

It doesn't mean you have to be friends or begin dating again.

 

However, it might be nice to know that they truly are remorseful for the strife they may have inflicted upon you in the past.

 

I agree, in this instance, that your forgiveness and time might be wasted on this man who is looking to pull you into another relationship.

 

Just some food for thought (though I'm sure you already know this stuff) .

 

Yes, I've experienced that. Can say I'm guilty of the same... thinking back over an interaction where I was out of line or unnecessarily caused hurt.

 

It's the reason why I do my best to be civil and honest when breaking up with someone or when someone is breaking up with me. I know I've hurt people in the past when I jumped to wrong conclusions.

 

In those cases, either when someone has apologized to me or when I'm the one doing the apologizing, the authenticity comes through when it is obvious that there is no 'bargaining' going on or there is no ulterior motive.

 

In fact, when I'm obliged to be the one apologizing, I do my best to check my own motives and make sure I'm not expecting something in return. In his case, he might have appeared more genuine if he hadn't asked to see me again and made it clear he was single. Simply offer the apology and leave it at that. That's what I would do anyway. Not try to attach strings to the apology or use the bait of trying again.

[FrankieFrank]

Any woman who makes opening like this sounds scary. It's one thing to not let others take advantage of you, but I'd fear someone like that would like to have tables turned and take advantage of someone else.

 

Personally, I'm not gonna repent for others sins. If someone was an ******* to you, OK, he's an *******, I'm not gonna question that or defend anything bad he did. He did wrong, end of story. But if you try to make me your personal punching bag for sth I have never done, wrong address.

[GoreSP]

You are one in a gazilion woman who will actually get an apology from a man who treated you like crap.

Maybe he wants to apologize to your face.

 

Go for coffee, let him pay, get your closure for the rest of us.

[Elliotte]

There was a time I fessed up and apologized to several women for past grievances, I was a commitment phobe and treated them unfairly because of it. I realized I had treated some amazing women in bad ways and wanted to get it off my chest, and most of them (except the most recent) had already forgiven me. I had a lot harder time forgiving myself for what I had done.

 

However, I did not ask them to hang out again, or try to rekindle anything between us, because part of forgiving myself was best done by moving on with my life and not making the same mistakes with the woman I am with now.

 

On the other side, my first girlfriend left me for one of my best friends. Years later he calls to apologize to me, because she did the same thing to him. I thought "he must have learned his lesson and gained some humility, maybe we could hang out like old times again!"...I quickly stopped being friends him because he was still a huge ******* with a giant ego, talking down to everyone and acting like he knew everything.

 

My gut tells me this ex of yours a little quick to jump from apology to "let's meet!" because it is less about atonement and more about a victory lap. I'd accept the apology gracefully, hopefully you have already moved past the pain he caused already anyways, but NOT accept him back into your life.

[MrCastle]

Any woman who makes opening like this sounds scary. It's one thing to not let others take advantage of you, but I'd fear someone like that would like to have tables turned and take advantage of someone else.

 

Personally, I'm not gonna repent for others sins. If someone was an ******* to you, OK, he's an *******, I'm not gonna question that or defend anything bad he did. He did wrong, end of story. But if you try to make me your personal punching bag for sth I have never done, wrong address.

 

Well spoken. Totally agree.

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

There was a time I fessed up and apologized to several women for past grievances, I was a commitment phobe and treated them unfairly because of it. I realized I had treated some amazing women in bad ways and wanted to get it off my chest, and most of them (except the most recent) had already forgiven me. I had a lot harder time forgiving myself for what I had done.

 

However, I did not ask them to hang out again, or try to rekindle anything between us, because part of forgiving myself was best done by moving on with my life and not making the same mistakes with the woman I am with now.

 

I've been wrestling with the idea of sending my first serious girlfriend (from 20 years ago) an apology/thankyou letter. I have no expectations, just a weight on my chest that I really want to lift. We are both married with families and I have absolutely no desire to disrupt either of our lives.

 

Here is a link to a letter I wrote without sending it.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/coping/117844-post-here-instead-contacting-your-ex/post-5396802.html#post5396802

 

I've rewritten it many times to make sure I'm not putting any expectations, hinting at anything, laying any guilt trips, questioning her life or her decision to leave me.

 

I know I really want to tell her these things, but I also can see how it might be a bad idea. I'm hoping time will make things more clear for me. Right now I can't see myself getting over this feeling, but I've never been great at looking forward.

[RedRobin]

Any woman who makes opening like this sounds scary. It's one thing to not let others take advantage of you, but I'd fear someone like that would like to have tables turned and take advantage of someone else.

 

Personally, I'm not gonna repent for others sins. If someone was an ******* to you, OK, he's an *******, I'm not gonna question that or defend anything bad he did. He did wrong, end of story. But if you try to make me your personal punching bag for sth I have never done, wrong address.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. Where does this say anything about taking advantage of someone else or turning any tables?

 

Just the opposite in fact. The guy I'm talking about (I think) is trying get another swipe at ME.

[RedRobin]

You are one in a gazilion woman who will actually get an apology from a man who treated you like crap.

Maybe he wants to apologize to your face.

 

Go for coffee, let him pay, get your closure for the rest of us.

 

I've been apologized to a gazillion times. I know what an authentic apology looks like. This ain't it.

[carhill]

OP, I realize you gave an annotated version of his 'apology' in the OP but, on the face of it, it sounded like he was merely describing his behavior at the time rather than apologizing for any specific act or word which was hurtful to you. More like a disclaimer - 'yeah, I was a jerk back then, so that makes the behavior valid because, you know, I was a jerk'

 

hehe.... I see guys like this all the time. Usually the ones who skipped out on paying me. Bla, bla, bla, gtfo...

[RedRobin]

I've been wrestling with the idea of sending my first serious girlfriend (from 20 years ago) an apology/thankyou letter. I have no expectations, just a weight on my chest that I really want to lift. We are both married with families and I have absolutely no desire to disrupt either of our lives.

 

Here is a link to a letter I wrote without sending it.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/coping/117844-post-here-instead-contacting-your-ex/post-5396802.html#post5396802

 

I've rewritten it many times to make sure I'm not putting any expectations, hinting at anything, laying any guilt trips, questioning her life or her decision to leave me.

 

I know I really want to tell her these things, but I also can see how it might be a bad idea. I'm hoping time will make things more clear for me. Right now I can't see myself getting over this feeling, but I've never been great at looking forward.

 

Don't do it. This is about you, not her. Maybe if you happen to run into her somewhere. Otherwise, no.

 

How does your wife feel about this?

[RedRobin]

OP, I realize you gave an annotated version of his 'apology' in the OP but, on the face of it, it sounded like he was merely describing his behavior at the time rather than apologizing for any specific act or word which was hurtful to you. More like a disclaimer - 'yeah, I was a jerk back then, so that makes the behavior valid because, you know, I was a jerk'

 

hehe.... I see guys like this all the time. Usually the ones who skipped out on paying me. Bla, bla, bla, gtfo...

 

Ah, yes. Keen eye you have. Yes, it does sound a lot like...

 

Sorry I didn't pay the rent.

 

Sorry I slept in and didn't come to work today.

 

Sorry I was a jerk. (But I'm a jerk who owns a two-family in a swanky part of town now... yes, he slid that in too. Like I give a damn. Ugh)

[Bigcitydreamer]

Good for you for seeing his message for what it really was!

 

Every single one of my exes pulls the same stuff, gets back in contact, tries to get together and I will never allow myself to do it! Even the one who broke my heart and who I was really attracted to, he wrote me on Facebook and asked me to hang out. I can't recall if he was necessarily apologizing but not sure how much that matters. I turned him down politely and he got mad asking since when did I become to good for him lol. I knew his niceness was an act.

 

It's like clockwork for me. I know they will always contact me and try to hang out and I am never in the situation where I want to.

 

I think you hanging out with him would make him feel good about himself. Don't waste your time.

[tbf]

RR, when exes bite again, you have to do a cost benefit analysis. Are they worth any further time, whether as a friend or more? Most often, they're exes for good reason but that doesn't preclude them being a decent friend.

 

I eventually forgave my cheating ex-husband. He ended up being the photographer for my second marriage, is still part of my social circle and plays in a men's basketball league with my husband.

 

When real detachment happens, they can't hurt you anymore.

[RedRobin]

RR, when exes bite again, you have to do a cost benefit analysis. Are they worth any further time, whether as a friend or more? Most often, they're exes for good reason but that doesn't preclude them being a decent friend.

 

I eventually forgave my cheating ex-husband. He ended up being the photographer for my second marriage, is still part of my social circle and plays in a men's basketball league with my husband.

 

When real detachment happens, they can't hurt you anymore.

 

That's what I usually do. One of my best friends is a man I dated for over a year. In fact, I'm always the first to TRY and salvage a friendship if just the normal dating misunderstandings, etc have occurred or we are incompatible. I can get past feelings of rejection, etc, if there were any genuine caring there at all. I'm more capable than most of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

Where I draw the line is when a betrayal has occurred. I can forgive them but they will never be invited into my life again. I can be civil, but that's as far as it goes.

 

There is a very good book on this called "How good do we have to be? A new understanding of guilt and forgiveness"

 

Another one from the same author is "When bad things happen to good people" It's all about forgiveness... for ourselves and each other.

 

It helped me a lot after my divorce... it helped me reconcile the feelings I had toward my ex... that it was ok to miss him and think positively about the time we shared together... without feeling that I needed him in my life. It also helped me come to terms and forgive myself for the things I know must have caused him pain as well.

 

True forgiveness does not mean you need to invite them back in for anything or keep them in your life. True forgiveness means you have a choice that is not burdened by guilt, shame, or retribution. I also don't need to 'prove' to myself that I'm a good person via accepting someone back in my life.

 

When seen in the light of day, most of the time, there is simply nothing all that compelling about that person or interaction... and given enough time, it and them will disappear like a puff of smoke. Best to devote my time and energy to people who have demonstrated consistent care and respect for me. That's what it really comes down to... Where I choose to spend my time and energy. Not proving to myself I can be some forgiving saint. BTDT.

Edited December 19, 2013 by RedRobin

[AShogunNamedMarcus]

Don't do it. This is about you, not her. Maybe if you happen to run into her somewhere. Otherwise, no.

 

How does your wife feel about this?

 

Of course it's mostly about me. No one is pretending that it's not. I'm the one with the guilty conscience and the regret. I'm the one not able to give myself closure. Hence the dilemma. Not to mention, having a broken heart is affecting my marriage of almost 15 years. Repression has only gotten me so far and it's not working anymore.

 

My wife was the first person to suggest that I contact her for closure. I told my wife it is not a good idea for me to just contact her, lay my problem at her feet, then ask if she could fix it for me. So I haven't sent a letter. The letters I compose don't ask for closure, but instead state how I feel.

 

The one I linked to is just one version. If I have only one shot, I'm not rushing to say something stupid like time traveling.

 

Mental disorders and guilt are a real bitch. I sense from your other posts that you may not sympathize with an overwhelming need to right your wrongs, but that is what my life has become, whether I want it or not.

 

So, while I am taking your advice into consideration, it doesn't do anything to remedy the situation, only prolong it. I'm going to see how CBT goes, and I have plenty of time to find out. Until something changes, I am keeping the letter as an option.

[RedRobin]

Well spoken. Totally agree.

 

ok Castle... I don't know this other poster... but I feel I've gotten to know you a bit here.

 

Please take a look at the list I posted above and tell me which ones you think people ought to overlook.

 

As you know, I'm rather tired of the pleas from lazy men to 'trust' them rather than them proving they are someone who deserves my trust. This is my biggest gripe against the 'hookup' culture...

 

Sure, I don't need to be belligerent about it (and I think the list above is more a discussion someone has in their head...) but it still stands.

 

I have no problems showing someone who I am, offering respect and care that any human being deserves and I deserve the same in return. Not a bunch of excuses why I'm supposed to live without boundaries so the OTHER person can get their needs met or feel good about themselves.

[RedRobin]

Of course it's mostly about me. No one is pretending that it's not. I'm the one with the guilty conscience and the regret. I'm the one not able to give myself closure. Hence the dilemma. Not to mention, having a broken heart is affecting my marriage of almost 15 years. Repression has only gotten me so far and it's not working anymore.

 

My wife was the first person to suggest that I contact her for closure. I told my wife it is not a good idea for me to just contact her, lay my problem at her feet, then ask if she could fix it for me. So I haven't sent a letter. The letters I compose don't ask for closure, but instead state how I feel.

 

The one I linked to is just one version. If I have only one shot, I'm not rushing to say something stupid like time traveling.

 

Mental disorders and guilt are a real bitch. I sense from your other posts that you may not sympathize with an overwhelming need to right your wrongs, but that is what my life has become, whether I want it or not.

 

So, while I am taking your advice into consideration, it doesn't do anything to remedy the situation, only prolong it. I'm going to see how CBT goes, and I have plenty of time to find out. Until something changes, I am keeping the letter as an option.

 

Take a look at the two books I suggested. There are some very good words in there that help with self-forgiveness.

 

I'm not a religious person, so don't get too worried that it's written by a Rabbi. I didn't feel it was preachy or dogmatic. More a way to tease through the messages we've all been sent about guilt and forgiveness.

 

I just don't see how sending the letter is going to fix your broken heart. Your ex can't give you redemption. Only you can do that. Your wife has offered you another chance to show your ability to love and care. Focus on that. Now is all we have.

[FrankieFrank]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Where does this say anything about taking advantage of someone else or turning any tables?

 

Just the opposite in fact. The guy I'm talking about (I think) is trying get another swipe at ME.

 

It doesn't. It doesn't change the fact that if a woman presented such a laundry list to me, I would NOT be getting good vibes about her intentions.

 

I'm not paying for other guys' sins. If someone treated a woman badly, that sucks. If the same woman jumps to conclusion that I must be intending to treat her badly just because that's what other guys did, and therefore I have to be kept on a proverbial leash, then I'm not having it.

 

Generally, if you only assume the worst for the other party, why even bother?

[RedRobin]

It doesn't. It doesn't change the fact that if a woman presented such a laundry list to me, I would NOT be getting good vibes about her intentions.

 

I'm not paying for other guys' sins. If someone treated a woman badly, that sucks. If the same woman jumps to conclusion that I must be intending to treat her badly just because that's what other guys did, and therefore I have to be kept on a proverbial leash, then I'm not having it.

 

Generally, if you only assume the worst for the other party, why even bother?

 

uh huh.... ok, do me a favor. Walk up to the next person you pass on the street who looks half way decent and hand them a $100 bill and see what happens.

 

That's what lots of men these days expect women to do. Offer up things of immense value.... their heart and/or bodies... to complete strangers.

 

If she did that in the past, and decided it was foolish to do so in the future, that's not 'putting you on a leash'. That is learning her own boundaries and deciding to get to know you.

 

And any man worth a damn who values himself would expect me to earn his trust as well... but still find a way to be nice about it that doesn't oblige me to be a doormat or pretend to give a shyte so he can get laid while he's getting to know me.

 

Besides, no one is offering you a laundry list of anything. It's more about reminding people to value oneself even if the other person isn't or doesn't want to.

 

Edited: I might also add that it is almost always 'men' who talk like this. You sound like the new contractor I hired who expects to get paid before the job is done.

 

In other words, your kind of whining shows me it's all about you and your needs. If you had anything valuable to lose yourself, you'd also be careful. As it is, statements like yours are just another form of bullying and deflection so that you can get what you want with the least amount of effort.

Edited December 19, 2013 by RedRobin