rosedl Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 When I write this, I am not trying to dismiss the importance of no contact rules or aiming to conduct yourself in a healthy way. However, as a person who has gone through a few break ups before this one and watched many break ups of marriages/relationships of friends and families, I just want to remind everyone to give themselves a break and stop worrying about handling and behaving perfect. I have known many 'together' people (whatever the hell that means)...upstanding citizens...yada, yada, yada....do all kinds of crazy things during the break up. One woman I know sent her ex husband poems every week for a year calling him out on the break up of the family. Another one, got ahold of her exs internet password and read all of his mail and activities (this actually proved useful during the divorce...he was a very naughty boy), a man I know seranaded his lover under her window while he KNEW her new boyfriend was there, one guy I know sent his ex girlfriend a copy of every movie they went to see. Omg. On and on it goes....and through the years, I have broken down and been reduced to yelling at my ex through his door and sending him videos talking to him. Are any of us proud of these actions and would we advise people to repeat them? Nope. But, heartbreak puts people in a highly vulnerable state. It is crazy painful and when a person is in pain all the time, they can break and do something they normally would never do. This is not an excuse to go and do something that you know you will regret tomorrow. But, it is a reminder that you are not alone. Break ups aren't neat. I have seen people reconcile through the crazy things they did to win their exs back during this period (I have also seen people end up with restraining orders against them)....... I had one ex call and I spent an hour talking him out of going back to street drugs (he had been clean for a few years) during our break up (we are still friends). Stop beating on yourself because you feel as you do. If you do slip up, catch yourself a break. In my experience, every slip up gave me something even if it was just a bucket of cold water that let me know the false hope I was carrying was really false. This actually speeded up the process in one case and helped me let go sooner had I burned with silence and never slipped. We want to feel in control again, so often we try to over manage break ups and realize that we actually hinder our healing with this rigidity. If we are healthy, we will act in only such and such a way....if we do it right, we will feel better in such and such a time....I actually have found it a relief to just accept my own slips (and reciprocate a kind attitude to others who I have to cut loose) and just forgive everyone involved. Sure, do the positive things to move forward. Do the best you can with your pain. But, realize falling is often part of the healing and it will give you insight into yourself and your motives, sometimes even more so then if you had played it out according to the advice books and web sites. (And, realize too, most of those people, at one time, showed up at one time or another on the wrong end of the phone or door doing everything they tell us not to do). Cut yourself a break already! 14
sportzhl24 Posted December 18, 2013 Posted December 18, 2013 Thanks for that. It makes me feel a bit more sane/normal haha. My ex dumped me about 4 months ago and as she went on with relatively no remorse or pain, I have spent the last 4 months in agony. It's funny how that works. I never pulled any ridiculous maneuver to try to get her back but I did end up hurting myself in a lot of ways, ways in which I don't care to get into. Anyways nice thread. thx
Author rosedl Posted December 18, 2013 Author Posted December 18, 2013 Breakups can be agonizing. Actually, contacting my ex made me really get why our relationship is a really not so great idea. Unforgiving, table turning, rigid, unkind, and self involved. The conversation I had with him in my head....woah....to hear the actual responses instead of the imaginary compassionate voice I would hear if he would just listen..... I am not an angel. I have not been perfect. In his mind, I am a shrew. (Holding him to account on his own words = shrew).... We kind of left it like we might try couple's therapy in a couple months. I realized that was not what I wanted after getting off the phone. Trying to convince him the value of our relationship and argue him out to my side seems really kind of stupid. If I am brutally honest with myself right now while there is still a part that does legitimately love and miss a part of him (which I haven't seen for two months) but a bigger part is just scared, unhappy at my single status, tired of starting over at 42, and disenchanted. And, that stuff is not about him. I'm tired. I have vested a lot in my relationships and they haven't resulted in a lasting partnership. I thought this time was really going to be different, and it busted my hope bubble. I realize that in order to manifest healthier patterns and find a more suitable partner that wants the same things, I will have to just put the whole thing down and focus on some other things. Not thrilled with that part either. Oh well.... The last contact I had was probably the exactly what I needed to get that last bucket of cold water right in my face. Speeded things up for me in the long run, set me back a day or two. 1
somedude81 Posted December 19, 2013 Posted December 19, 2013 Nice read. I feel like absolute crap since my break up two weeks ago and I've pretty much cried everyday since then. Thankfully I didn't do anything stupid or that I regret since then. Of course I'm keeping my cool hoping she'll want to get back with me down the line but at least I'm not making myself look like an ass or a wuss.
KelC411 Posted December 19, 2013 Posted December 19, 2013 When I write this, I am not trying to dismiss the importance of no contact rules or aiming to conduct yourself in a healthy way. However, as a person who has gone through a few break ups before this one and watched many break ups of marriages/relationships of friends and families, I just want to remind everyone to give themselves a break and stop worrying about handling and behaving perfect. I have known many 'together' people (whatever the hell that means)...upstanding citizens...yada, yada, yada....do all kinds of crazy things during the break up. One woman I know sent her ex husband poems every week for a year calling him out on the break up of the family. Another one, got ahold of her exs internet password and read all of his mail and activities (this actually proved useful during the divorce...he was a very naughty boy), a man I know seranaded his lover under her window while he KNEW her new boyfriend was there, one guy I know sent his ex girlfriend a copy of every movie they went to see. Omg. On and on it goes....and through the years, I have broken down and been reduced to yelling at my ex through his door and sending him videos talking to him. Are any of us proud of these actions and would we advise people to repeat them? Nope. But, heartbreak puts people in a highly vulnerable state. It is crazy painful and when a person is in pain all the time, they can break and do something they normally would never do. This is not an excuse to go and do something that you know you will regret tomorrow. But, it is a reminder that you are not alone. Break ups aren't neat. I have seen people reconcile through the crazy things they did to win their exs back during this period (I have also seen people end up with restraining orders against them)....... I had one ex call and I spent an hour talking him out of going back to street drugs (he had been clean for a few years) during our break up (we are still friends). Stop beating on yourself because you feel as you do. If you do slip up, catch yourself a break. In my experience, every slip up gave me something even if it was just a bucket of cold water that let me know the false hope I was carrying was really false. This actually speeded up the process in one case and helped me let go sooner had I burned with silence and never slipped. We want to feel in control again, so often we try to over manage break ups and realize that we actually hinder our healing with this rigidity. If we are healthy, we will act in only such and such a way....if we do it right, we will feel better in such and such a time....I actually have found it a relief to just accept my own slips (and reciprocate a kind attitude to others who I have to cut loose) and just forgive everyone involved. Sure, do the positive things to move forward. Do the best you can with your pain. But, realize falling is often part of the healing and it will give you insight into yourself and your motives, sometimes even more so then if you had played it out according to the advice books and web sites. (And, realize too, most of those people, at one time, showed up at one time or another on the wrong end of the phone or door doing everything they tell us not to do). Cut yourself a break already! Thanks, rosedl. This was well timed for me. I just ended up having a brutal fight with my ex (which Ifeel like he "won" since he basically insulted me the whole time) while Xmas shopping and then started crying in a resteraunt. Ouch. Embarassing. But you are right, I did learn from it. I learned thathe can be really cold and that when he is angry he was willing to throw things I had trusted him with at me as ammunition. Im not perfect and made a lot of mistakes, but I would never do that to him. So even though it hurt, I do think it will help me move on in the long run. 2
Author rosedl Posted December 19, 2013 Author Posted December 19, 2013 Tantry....I am glad it was helpful. I wrote the original post because when I came here struggling to see if couple's therapy might be a worthwhile avenue to try and reconcile with my ex, I was blasted by a bunch of people on what amounted to them telling me I was being weak and stupid..... Not helpful in the least. Yep, I don't have an iron will and an on/off switch to my heart. Guilty as charged. Two months ago we were planning the rest of our lives, renovations and vacations and telling each other how lucky we were to have each other....and now........ "I don't want a relationship....relationships are not what I value. I need lots of time alone and I don't want to engage with people". (formerly he wanted to be less isolated and include more socialization in his life...and we were what mattered and the rest didn't matter without me). He basically told me I was abusing him which is the overstatement of the year. He pushes me out of his life after this extreme closeness and then when I get upset, confused, and vulnerable and try to talk to him, I am not respecting his space. PUSH - PULL PUSH - PULL - PUSH - PULL. Dream boyfriend to 'go the hell away and get out of my life'. Commitment phobia to the core. He is two people. One wants and craves love and commitment. The other is terrified it and rejects it and wants to protect himself by going back to all his old coping mechanisms and pretending that it is healthy. And, he can do that by just pretending he doesn't want a relationship anyway. It just means he is being 'true to himself'. But, I have to step up and realize that you know what....He can't do this....For whatever reason this process is too much and too intense and it doesn't work for him. Who am I to say that he has to choose to be with me and he has to do all this core healing work so that we can be together? He doesn't want to do it. He is unhappy and even though I think he would ultimately be happier if he would do his work that is no longer my concern. I have to be content knowing that I have a chance for being happier for doing my work and not trying to figure him out and us out and me out in the context of this relationship. Keep my eyes on my own work. We both have been reduced to trying to control ourselves through controlling the relationship. Me forcing it. Him withdrawing. Me demanding. Him playing victim. I know that there will come a time when he wants to come back and try again. It is the other end of the commitment phobic cycle. He already has agreed to go to weekly double couple's therapy sessions and I do believe he will go and follow through with it. The insurance is all set. We found someone we both like... But, I also know that the chances of a lifelong commitment phobe healing in his fifties and stopping a life long pattern of how he has related to women in not very likely unless he really really really wants to change....And, my gut tells me that since he prefers solitude anyways...well, he will just revert to that stance. I see my faults. I have been contemptuous and not accepting and pushy. He does see some of his.... I don't really think our couple's therapy is really going to happen. If I pushed it, and made the appointment, he would go. I think he would try. But, since just a big a part of him wants to disappear into the woods forever and leave and I am less and less interested in trying to save this after all the problems and repeated leaving...I think it is just likely that if we even end up talking to make the appointment, there won't be any fight left in either of us. Mine is leaving by the day.... If I did break down and end up going, I do realize I have set up a barrier of protection against reengaging in another dysfunctional go round. The therapist is pretty skilled and she will call us out on what is happening, and neither of us want to repeat old patterns. So, if we do break for a last shot....and it really can't work (which I see is the most likely outcome), it won't go on as before. We both are done with that...We both are pretty cooked with this battle. And, I am at the point where I can say for certainty that if the therapy didn't make any difference or showed it futile, I would abide by it. Now that I think of it, therapy was the door out of my last relationship. We set very specific achievable goals for both of us and dates for implementing them for change in the relationship. Nothing changed. The game was exposed (it made a difference to have time frames and be called out on empty promises, much harder to back away from what you say and commit to do when you have a witness), so he left. I have to say, it broke the cycle and even though we didn't heal, it gave a lot of closure and we both truly knew the truth around the situation.... I am sure there will be people here ready to jump all over me, if I do reengage and go to therapy with him. Weak, naive, masochistic....yeah. I just wonder how many people here who still love their ex would be strong enough to not jump all over any opportunity to get professional help to heal their problems with someone they love, if only to know they gave it all they had and all they might get is closure. I suspect quite a few would be in the therapist's office, if given that chance.... I don't know what will happen. I am feeling less and less like following up on therapy. But, I guess since I do believe the worse that would happen is therapy would just reaffirm my thoughts now, and no reconciliation would occur unless it was successful, I am not really in much danger of repeating the past. NC for six weeks before it would begin due to travel and work on both ends will probably put the nail in the coffin.
belinda22 Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Rosedl- sorry to hear about your story. I'm dealing with my own commitment phobe right now. I'm one week and one day with NC. I did some things I shouldn't have and should've went NC sooner. Way sooner. We took space the end of August then started seeing each other weekly. Then became intimate again. At the end of October we spent the weekend together and did bored around the house. When he left Sunday he said he'd text me about when we would see each other the upcoming week. That Monday he ended it. I went rounds of begging and pleading and asking questions. As to me it was so crazy as we were supposed to be getting engaged and were lookig at investment homes. Realistically I should've saw it coming. This was our fourth break up in four years. He ran every time a new step was being made. Subsequently he withdraws. I pull closer. He distances further. You think I would've learned by now. This time I don't know of he will reaurface as he has in his head that he will only come back if he can be all in bc he didn't want to keep cycling in and out. I'd be interested to hear more about your story. It's hard talking to anyone who hasn't dated a cp. glad yours is willing to talk to someone. Mine isn't. He did come over two and a half weeks ago and listened to me. He cried. Looked around the house and fridge we once shared like a crazy person. He said he'd think about what I said and he loved me. The next time I contacted him he was angry. Seems how it goes. Would love to hear how long you dated. Have you broken up before?
Author rosedl Posted December 20, 2013 Author Posted December 20, 2013 Belinda, I am so sorry you are going through this as well. I really empathize with your post. I have been through one cycle of this before. He broke up with me for three months. When we reconciled, he came to the table with a lot of insight, and he truly seemed to want to come back and move forward with the relationship. He was a dream boyfriend for awhile. Then, when our issues started to resurface and the honeymoon phase was over again, he questioned the entire relationship all over again. Granted, I wasn't perfect but I came to the table with my issues and he completely shut me out. Again. He can't take fights and any struggles I have around my own insecurities he views as complete betrayals of trust that literally take him months to get over. I talked to him about this recently and he told me that he gets so angry that he can't talk to me because it will do more damage. It literally takes him weeks to let go of this anger and self defensiveness. I know it is because he cant bear the feeling of feeling unsafe and he is punishing me and shutting me out for my failing to keep him safe in the relationship. It is ludicrous. He is in his fifties and he never learned how to make up and move on after a fight. And, the most infuriating thing about it is that some of these fights have about holding him accountable for his words and actions. I think he feels so much shame, and blames me for making him feel the way he does. He can't tolerate it. Half of the last year has been this cycle. I am getting less upset by it. He has taken so much space and maintained so much distance, I am forgetting all the positives we share to make me want to vest in this anymore. I don't think he wants this relationship and to change his life so much that he will be able to vest and do the work required for him to ever have a true intimate relationship. His solution has been to devalue intimacy and pretend he doesn't need it anyway. If the relationship is optional, he can protect his old patterns and pretend he is being true to himself. The only way I would consider reengaging would be to immediately enter into weekly double session therapy with him. My gut tells me that isn't going to happen. I think he would do it but I am not going to chase him anymore or try to initiate it. I am not contacting him again and he can call me and schedule out the appointments and work for it, if he wants it. Otherwise, I am putting it down. I consider us broken up and I am giving up the expectation that he will do what is necessary to really change. Solitude is more comfortable for him and I think he wants to focus on different things. I am starting to really let that sink in. The hopes and misperceptions I held ended with our last three hour discussion. I am glad I broke no contact, he shared a lot, not a lot of what I wanted to hear, but a lot about the way he really thinks and it gave me huge insight into what is really going on. Accepting has been hard, but it is softening. Before, I really thought we might have some sort of chance but now I see how deep this stuff goes and how much I didn't understand his mindset and where he was coming from.....I truly didn't get and see some things. And, seeing them makes letting go easier since I am not holding onto a bunch of false beliefs that lead to what ifs and if only we did..... I am seeing what is NOT possible now instead of stubbornly clinging into what only I thought was possible in the first place. Not pleasant, but liberating.
belinda22 Posted December 20, 2013 Posted December 20, 2013 Rose- thanks for sharing. It seems like you are in a really good place with this all. How long have you two been no contact again for? At age 26 I became a widow due to my husband dying of cancer. This is like a complete retraumatization again, as it feels like he's died. My cp is two totally different people, and I think this is a constant battle for him. I represent one side of him which is less selfish, sharing love, going gifts, an having a house. The other side of him has reared his ugly head- he's a minimalist, turns vegan, enjoys solitude, deleted his social media account, and is very guarded. He doesn't realize both parts can exist in one. It's like he went off the deep end. When I met him he said I would never be his gf, he'd never live withe, and he'd never marry me. Well I became his gf at his request, and we moved into a house together. I put the down payment on the house but he paid the bills with me and also paid for additions to the house. Now I sit here in a house alone. It's hard when you think the world of someone and they do this. I always just wish I knew what was going on in his head. I guess he's back to thinking relationships aren't pointless. Which is sad after 4 years and a lot of memories. Outsiders would think this probably wasnt a good relationship, but we were super close. Each others best friend. It's almost like the relationship was good, so he ran AGAIN. This time it has been much longer but I exacerbated the issue by begging and pleading and trying to convince and for two months we did weekly dates which I'm sure didn't help. His anxiety was just being reloaded. My hope has been that he would come back like he has before and we could go to counseling. But I'm not sure he will come back this time. I'm seeing a counselor weekly mostly just to deal w the stress of what happened?! She called his behaviors schizophrenic. He tells me to move on bc he doesn't know when or if he will snap out of it, like he knows it something he needs to snap out of. When we talked a few weeks ago he bawled as I was telling him how I feel. He also looked in every room of the house and in the fridge. My guess was he was looking for signs of another guy since he feels like he can't ask. That conversation went well then a week later I panicked bc I heard he was at the bar and I called him. Naturally he got really angry and said we aren't together. It has to be all or nothing and right now it's nothing. So then I sent emails and more texts and just made the cycle start again. It's like when he gets angry he goes to this other Place then when he calms down and has had "space" for awhile he's better. He really wants to be alone so I am leaving him alone. He will be mean and say leave me alone, then I respond saying something like fine. I love you. And he will write back I love you too. The last time we talked a little over a week ago he told me he loved me. It's all dumb and I wish I could just move forward, so I'm taking small steps every day. I just wish I knew why this time he won't come back just bc he misses and moves me. He said he will only come back if he can be all in. He had some epiphany that he would just keep cycling back in and out. Thanks for listening and I hope things work out the best for you!
Author rosedl Posted December 21, 2013 Author Posted December 21, 2013 Belinda I am so sorry that you are going through the same type of situation. These men are toxic. Commitment phobic. Narcissistic. Selfish. Whatever you label it....it is confusing, controlling, and cruel behavior.... And, they keep doing it because we put up with it. The push/pull is crazy making. One day you are making long term plans and the next, they are questioning the entire relationship and doing their 'I need space' routine. In reality, these men are out of control. They can't manage their own emotions. The responsibility for maintaining their safety and satisfaction in the relationship falls entirely on you, and if you fail, they feel more then justified in abandoning the relationship because you hurt them. Meanwhile, we live in a state of being constantly unsafe because they claim the right to walk at anytime. They manage their anxiety on our backs. And, if we balk or get angry or suffer from feelings of insecurity from this eggshell dynamic, we will get pushed away again for failing to hold their safety and holding them to account. It is a lose/lose situation. My ex truly feels as if I am abusive to him. He views himself a victim to my cycles and he sees his only problem as not being able to forgive me quickly enough and being out of proportion angry with me to my 'crime'. And, I know I set myself up for this dynamic. I have gone along with things or went out of where I felt comfortable to accommodate him and then, eventually I end up either crying and hurt or angry. He view this as some type of planned out manipulation. (People think other people think as they do, these men are MANIPULATIVE) when in reality, I just wasn't good at holding my boundaries out of my own fears. Instead of having compassion for that, he feels furious with me and he doesn't trust me anymore and never realizes his part in the cycle at all. All we can do is take responsibility for ourselves. I shouldn't be allowing someone to cross my boundaries out of fear of losing him. If he will walk out on me because I hold him to account or have a different need or leave the relationship whenever he needs to manage his anxiety level and regain control, I am nuts to try and stop it by continuing to accommodate him further. I am so sick of him painting his need for space as healthy and sane when it has been a repeatedly destructive pattern in his own and other people's lives. Independence is viewed in this society as the hallmark of strength and these men think they are acting 'true to themselves' when they are just walking over another person to get their needs met. The woman who has vested her love, energy, trust, and commitment is left to feel like a weak needy person. It's maddening. And, it isn't true. It takes a lot of strength to love and commit to someone and truly make your heart vulnerable. Not so much to just put it on the other person and take all the power for yourself at their expense. Of course, in the end, they are powerless. They lose out on experiencing true intimacy or deep love in their lives out of their own fear. And, that is not powerful at all. Once we understand all of this....Well, the onus is on us to stop allowing ourselves to be treated in this way. We know what they do. We know their game. I would recommend that you take the same approach as me. Stop giving him all the power. It means stop chasing and refuse to let him back in your life unless upon the strictest of terms (individual counseling to deal with him issues, couple's therapy to help heal, a set date for an engagement). We are often to scared to set any boundaries because we know they will leave. So, we have to be truly be prepared to let them leave and put our attention back to taking care of ourselves. If they truly are interested in change and don't want to lose us, they will do their work. The chances of this happening are highly highly highly unlikely. Setting your own boundaries, at the very least, will make it impossible for them to continue their scam and endless back and forth. It will end the cycle of false hope. My hope in my relationship is about 3%. It is actually way lower then his....he gave his hope for our succeeding at 40% (I didn't ask for this this number, he told me). In answer to your question, he really pulled back around the second week of November and it has been a accelerating descent back into full breakup mode over the past month. We have talked about weekly. Always me stupidly initiating. However, each time I have contacted him, I actually have been pushed further and further into reality. The last conversation pretty much guaranteed that I won't be contacting him again and if he is interested in therapy and reconciling, he will have to contact me about it. Even if that happens, I am not at all sure I will want to go. Every day, I have felt less and less like reengaging. Like I wrote before....he has spent so much time away from me or actively questioning staying, I am losing sight of the good things and the love we did share. I don't trust him anymore. And, the more I reflect back on things he has done, the more I question why I would want to be with him in the first place. All this is healthy. But, it has been very hard because I know that by focusing on the relationship, I have avoided doing my own work around fears of being alone and taking responsibility for myself in other ways. I am pushed into a corner, and I have been very depressed. It has been a very rough period as I let go to our break up and turn to do the work I have been neglecting through running in relationships. Yuck, yuck, and YUCK. How are you thinking you are going to handle your situation?
Author rosedl Posted December 21, 2013 Author Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) Duplicate post....removed Edited December 21, 2013 by rosedl
ABrokenNerd Posted December 21, 2013 Posted December 21, 2013 Thanks for this thread. Deep in my recesses of logic, I think everyone knows your words to be true, but it helps to be reminded that we are not alone in our own screwed up situations. For me, I did something really stupid. I remained on the puppet strings of my ex for a year as her friend while still head over heels in love with her. It wasn't until I found out she had been dating someone else recently that I finally decided to give no contact a try (and its been working so far). It just made her more and more flaky and now she is trying to reach out with menial texts, which is something I thought she would never do. So perhaps the break up can make the dumper act differently as well. Show their true colours and what not. Life has a very strange way of making people realize that their poo does in fact stink like everyone else if you do catch the metaphor. I'm still not moved on completely. It will take time for me because I may be a tall and tough looking guy but I'm a big softie. Even with her seeing someone else. I thought for sure that it would be the nail, the rivets, the double weld on my coffin of steel 10 inches thick, but her recent flakyness roused up the hope that I thought died. For now I'll just sort out my own stuff, because whether or not she comes back is no longer a goal of mine. I kind of went of topic but yeah, great thread. Nice to read something from someone experienced, because when it comes to relationships, I'm clearly not. 1
belinda22 Posted December 21, 2013 Posted December 21, 2013 Rose- you have no idea how nice it is to just read your posts. I feel terrible about the heartache you've been through, but it is nice to hear someone else has battled this too. You hit the nail on the proverbial head when you said this is maddening. At times, I feel like I'm losing my mind. I had set Up a boundary of sorts with a we are get if engaged by the end of August. People may jump on me and say this was my first mistake but I can assure you that two April's ago he was emailing my best friend about my ring size. We went ring shopping. He emailed several places and went as far as designing a ring. So I felt that he needed an ultimatum of sorta so he just didn't keep dragging his feet as he'd been for a year and a half. And aside from his two times he took space during that time, he was all about it. He would send me cards and emails saying he wanted his crowning achievement in life to be the family he made with me. He'd say he was working to be the husband I deserved and he Loved me so much he could keep a very important promise (marriage). So I didn't force him into something, I just knew I needed boundaries. So two weeks before the deadline right after looking at investment homes (he didn't want me to work when we had kids), he said he needed space. Space escalated into a full fledged breakup bc I think us remaining in contact just reloaded his anxiety. The one way my cp differs from urs is he doesn't really blame me except saying I place pressure on him. He tells me I perfect and he loves me very much. He flat out admits I was the best thing to ever happen to him. It's such a crazy game. Yours does the classic deflect the blame on you. I can assure you rose- this is him and not you. I've never put up with this before in a relationship but I've always felt like I've been chasing him. Even though most people would say I'm too good for him. As far as my plan moving forward I don't have one. I wish there was a way to get my power back but we aren't talking. One week and two days no contact. The longest this time I've gone is two weeks and two days. Then he came over and we had that chat. There's nothing I can really do and it makes me sad. He seems to be set on his decision that he won't come back until he can commit fully. I think he realized his demons haven't gone away. It stinks but there's almost no use talking to him when he goes to what I call the dark side. He needs help and counseling. Even outside of our relationship he is so selfish. He tends to be a follower of his siblings (4 of them) and none of them are even dating anyone. I guess I have to leave him figure himself out and no contact is really the only way to do that even though its hard. It's hard because he did make strides, but I do have moments where I can reflect on the really crappy things that he has done. So I guess that's progress. I constantly question why the heck happened, but I think I have to take him at face value when he said its not his feelings for me it's his issues. He does miss and love me but won't come back just because of that because it will cause the cycle to continue. He just cant commit to a relationship which seems nuts since he did for four years. Do you ever have the dumb thoughts where you are like, "oh he's probably doing great". It kills me to think this isn't affecting him as much as me as I know he avoids. Good for you staying strong w nc. We can do it together. FYI my cp went from a 3 bedroom beautiful cap cod to a run down month to month efficiency apt w a mattress on the floor. He has no cable so spends his time reading and at the bar. He has a company issued car no furniture and is a division I bball coach so he makes a good salary and could afford something much better.he hates buying anything but went out and bought a few new ties because he left his here. He will get mad at me texting and say "leave me the f alone" I respond and say this long thing about this is dumb and you are mean but I love you, an he always responds "I love you too". It's sick and part of it I definitely do to myself. My sick fantasy is that at some level he comes back around and I can be like nope sorry! A girl can dream
Author rosedl Posted December 21, 2013 Author Posted December 21, 2013 Brokennerd.... We are all fools for love, at one time or another. It is hard enough to lose someone you love, but it is worse when they try to keep us around and pretend friendship when it is just the feeling of security, admiration, or an easy back up that they really value. I am sorry that you were treated this way. Belinda: Yep. Of course, I think he is doing fine while I am miserable. I get so angry at him that I want to go break all his skis (his favorite winter hobby). When I get into this place, I try to bring it back to myself and stop obsessing over what he is or is not doing and remind myself to work on myself and not to vest my thoughts and attention his way. The most powerful thing you can do is give something your attention and it is equally as powerful to remove it. I know you can't talk to your guy right now. I was suggesting what you might think about when he comes back from the dark side and swings the other way. I have found that to hold my boundaries, I have to keep moving myself into the space where I can really truly move forward with my life without him. The last go around, I used to try and convince him to come back and eventually, I contacted him and he did. I am not doing that again. I realize the chances of a 50 something commitment phobic man who manages his anxiety by devaluing his need for intimacy isn't likely to change now. I do think he will come back at some point and try to find a way back in. Maybe I am wrong. But, the rate this is going, I don't think I will be much tempted to go back in. However, if I still am insane, I guess I consider these boundaries firewalls. It is a way to put the responsibility on him to address why this keeps happening, and if he isn't willing to do it or doesn't follow through, it will quickly expose that his intentions really aren't seriously to change. I told my ex that I would not even consider reconciling unless he agreed to give me a time frame for therapy and agreed to go. He knew that I was serious and I would be completely gone if he didn't, so he threw me a crumb and agreed to it. Words are cheap, it is an easy way to buy more time without having to do anything. I have no expectations that in six weeks he will actually go. He isn't trustworthy. Interestingly, the effect of this action hasn't made me hold on tighter to hope and that we might actually heal things between us. Instead, it has made me examine why I even want to hold on at all. My focus shifted about obsessing about whether we will reconcile to examining why I even want to get back with him, and my real motives in the relationship. It hasn't been exactly pretty to look at all of it. He made it so clear that his freedom and solitude trump our relationship in the last phone call, there is little point in trying again. I think he is a worm. And, I don't really want to be with a worm.
ConfusedHumanBeing Posted December 21, 2013 Posted December 21, 2013 Tantry....I am glad it was helpful. I wrote the original post because when I came here struggling to see if couple's therapy might be a worthwhile avenue to try and reconcile with my ex, I was blasted by a bunch of people on what amounted to them telling me I was being weak and stupid..... Not helpful in the least. Yep, I don't have an iron will and an on/off switch to my heart. Guilty as charged. Two months ago we were planning the rest of our lives, renovations and vacations and telling each other how lucky we were to have each other....and now........ "I don't want a relationship....relationships are not what I value. I need lots of time alone and I don't want to engage with people". (formerly he wanted to be less isolated and include more socialization in his life...and we were what mattered and the rest didn't matter without me). He basically told me I was abusing him which is the overstatement of the year. He pushes me out of his life after this extreme closeness and then when I get upset, confused, and vulnerable and try to talk to him, I am not respecting his space. PUSH - PULL PUSH - PULL - PUSH - PULL. Dream boyfriend to 'go the hell away and get out of my life'. Commitment phobia to the core. He is two people. One wants and craves love and commitment. The other is terrified it and rejects it and wants to protect himself by going back to all his old coping mechanisms and pretending that it is healthy. And, he can do that by just pretending he doesn't want a relationship anyway. It just means he is being 'true to himself'. But, I have to step up and realize that you know what....He can't do this....For whatever reason this process is too much and too intense and it doesn't work for him. Who am I to say that he has to choose to be with me and he has to do all this core healing work so that we can be together? He doesn't want to do it. He is unhappy and even though I think he would ultimately be happier if he would do his work that is no longer my concern. I have to be content knowing that I have a chance for being happier for doing my work and not trying to figure him out and us out and me out in the context of this relationship. Keep my eyes on my own work. We both have been reduced to trying to control ourselves through controlling the relationship. Me forcing it. Him withdrawing. Me demanding. Him playing victim. I know that there will come a time when he wants to come back and try again. It is the other end of the commitment phobic cycle. He already has agreed to go to weekly double couple's therapy sessions and I do believe he will go and follow through with it. The insurance is all set. We found someone we both like... But, I also know that the chances of a lifelong commitment phobe healing in his fifties and stopping a life long pattern of how he has related to women in not very likely unless he really really really wants to change....And, my gut tells me that since he prefers solitude anyways...well, he will just revert to that stance. I see my faults. I have been contemptuous and not accepting and pushy. He does see some of his.... I don't really think our couple's therapy is really going to happen. If I pushed it, and made the appointment, he would go. I think he would try. But, since just a big a part of him wants to disappear into the woods forever and leave and I am less and less interested in trying to save this after all the problems and repeated leaving...I think it is just likely that if we even end up talking to make the appointment, there won't be any fight left in either of us. Mine is leaving by the day.... If I did break down and end up going, I do realize I have set up a barrier of protection against reengaging in another dysfunctional go round. The therapist is pretty skilled and she will call us out on what is happening, and neither of us want to repeat old patterns. So, if we do break for a last shot....and it really can't work (which I see is the most likely outcome), it won't go on as before. We both are done with that...We both are pretty cooked with this battle. And, I am at the point where I can say for certainty that if the therapy didn't make any difference or showed it futile, I would abide by it. Now that I think of it, therapy was the door out of my last relationship. We set very specific achievable goals for both of us and dates for implementing them for change in the relationship. Nothing changed. The game was exposed (it made a difference to have time frames and be called out on empty promises, much harder to back away from what you say and commit to do when you have a witness), so he left. I have to say, it broke the cycle and even though we didn't heal, it gave a lot of closure and we both truly knew the truth around the situation.... I am sure there will be people here ready to jump all over me, if I do reengage and go to therapy with him. Weak, naive, masochistic....yeah. I just wonder how many people here who still love their ex would be strong enough to not jump all over any opportunity to get professional help to heal their problems with someone they love, if only to know they gave it all they had and all they might get is closure. I suspect quite a few would be in the therapist's office, if given that chance.... I don't know what will happen. I am feeling less and less like following up on therapy. But, I guess since I do believe the worse that would happen is therapy would just reaffirm my thoughts now, and no reconciliation would occur unless it was successful, I am not really in much danger of repeating the past. NC for six weeks before it would begin due to travel and work on both ends will probably put the nail in the coffin. Ive read all of your threads. No one came even close to "blasting" you.
belinda22 Posted December 21, 2013 Posted December 21, 2013 Rose- I was rereading back through this thread last night and our stories are so eerily similar. I had this crazy fear that my cp will run off and marry the next girl, bc the timing will be right or he will be "ready". As he often says he's just not ready (4 yrs of dating, living together in officially then officially most of the time, and he's 31 next month not 23), and he's still not ready. Your cp being 50 leads me to believe he might not just run off and get hitched. Just like your cp mine loves his solitude. In fact during our break last summer he sent me and article called solitude and leadership, you can google it. He's always telling me he needs to be alone to figure out himself. Each break or break up its been I don't know who I am and what I want for my life. He also devalues relationships, which I believe is to prove he doesn't need someone. He is so worried always about conforming to society and wants to be different. What he doesn't realize is that he is conforming just in another way. It's kind of hilarious but as I mentioned before he goes back into this place of solitude. No cable. No Facebook. Hiking. Turning into a vegan. Reading. Listening to the Grateful Dead. Being minimalistic. Basically he turns into his brothers. I suppose this is who he really is, but this was the selfish, self-absorbed side of him. His job doesn't fit in with this side of him and he often questions if this is hat he wants to do for his life and says maybe he should be a janitor. His job and me represent a big contrast of that side of him. We represent stability. Family. Responsibility. And certainly not minimalism. Reading back through your thread I've experienced the same thing. Being soooo close to pushing far far away. When we don't talk for two weeks he's kinder, but the minute I reach out again I'm not respecting his space. Where he's at now is that he wants to be alone and doesn't want to be in a relationship but loves and misses me and our house. He said " I feel like u are waiting for me to snap out of it and I don't know when or if I will." Everything has to be on his terms. I've even said if he's not ready i will wait for marriage or take it off the table. He insists if we get back together he wants to be all in w marriage and a child. Was your cp ever married? Does he have any kids? When I'm thinking calmly, I know how much he loved me. His mother said she's never seen him happier. He even said that all his family and friends know how much he loves me that's why he is doing this. I can't help but have doubts at times. Today will be one week and three days no contact. I don't know if ill ever talk to him again. This time seems different. It's taken so much longer (however I kept seeing and contacting him). He's told me there's no one else but those thoughts creep into my head. Those are definitely not fun. Since he's told me to leave him alone and respect his space I would hope he'd be honest if there was someone. If he wanted me to leave him alone that's all he'd need to say- that there was someone else. Instead he swore there wasnt. I'm just not so sure he will swing back this time.
Author rosedl Posted December 21, 2013 Author Posted December 21, 2013 Belinda Our guys sound like clones of each other. It isn't surprising for a commitment phobe to pull his disappearing act when you are moving forward with major steps. If purchasing property and marriage were the upcoming events, it is not at all surprising that he bolted again. From everything I have read, these men miss us when they are apart from us (the space gives them enough relief to feel it), but their anxiety and fear replace their feelings of love when they get close again. It is a sad and crazy dichotomy. My ex has definitely repeated this pattern in the past with other women, and including his wife who he allowed to move another man into their home and act as surrogate husband so he could maintain his freedom (he doesn't put it that way, but it is basically what it was). Extreme stuff. He did the same type of thing with his last girlfriend. Women have always put up with it from him except in very short term affairs. Accommodating them is the worst thing we can do. It lets them know that they can do ANYTHING to us, and we will just be here waiting, if and when, they ever decide to come back. It teaches them that they have the option to do this in the future when it suits their need. By telling him that you don't need marriage or a larger commitment, you are selling yourself short and not being true to your own needs because you are so afraid of losing him. It was I said in my other post, we go crazy trying to accommodate them so that they feel safe (which is IMPOSSIBLE for us to do and completely co-dependent to try) but we never have that safety in return. And, if we do anything to try and gain it, we risk losing everything. Lose/lose situation. I do believe your guy loves you (be it in a broken way and the only way he is capable of) but there is also just as big a part of him that fears intimacy and rejects you. The love part doesn't make that go away. And, the fact that he is stating he would rather pursue solitude and pushes you out of his life in these continual and hurtful patterns is not loving or acceptable behavior. There is nothing we can do to change them, and our efforts to move towards them are just perceived as unwanted, invasive, and desperate. I really believe the best we can do for ourselves and the situation is to just leave them the hell alone, let them leave, and if they do want to return, insist on immediate individual and couple's counseling to address the issue and not let them back in until and unless they really do their emotional homework. Otherwise, all we are doing is setting ourselves up for years and years of this heartbreak and insecurity. You guys are talking about marriage and a kid? Can you think how excruciating this would be if there were kids involved? Just the act of marriage and babies doesn't heal this stuff (believe me, I have witnessed how this enacted out in my exs marriage), it just creates more heartbreak and a larger mess! At this point, we have to stop making it about them and what they will or wont do and about us and why we put up with this cycle and keep behaving in ways that allow it to continue. The last couple weeks of talks and hearing how much he values solitude and freedom over intimacy really helped hammer it into my head. If that is what he wants, I am not going to threaten him with my love. And, that all these guys can do....view our love as a threat.
belinda22 Posted December 21, 2013 Posted December 21, 2013 Rose- your words are always exactly what I need to hear. I agree our guys sound like clones. I haven't given my guy time to miss me, because I can't even control myself longer than 2 weeks not to reach out. It's pretty clear that when I give him that length of time he's more receptive, as evidenced by him coming over to talk after 3.5 weeks. He cried and did that creepy control thing asking about my whereabouts and looking in my fridge. But I didn't let it Long. I proceeded to text him that Sunday night, Wednesday, and Sunday. Which led to him rejecting and being angry and me becoming needy and clingy til that Wednesday. I know I need to remain strong. If I could just get it through my head that he does love me, he just has issues I'd probably feel better to start movin forward. It's like I second guess what I already know. When I let him he told me I'd never be his gf, he'd never marry me, and wed never live together. Clearly he had issues. I need to accept its him. Not me or anything I could of done differently. I always fear he will meet someone who will make him want to run to the altar, but that's probably not the case. It's almost comical that both our guys used the solitude word. My cp is almost on a mission to prove he doesn't need me or the societal norms. That's how it feels sometimes. I agree we threaten them, because the relationship is so good. I know in my situation, I challenge him to be more centered, less self- absorbed and loving. He has said I'm the first person he's loved more than himself. It's scary how it can be so easy to walk away from that love and a four year relationship and house we had together. But things just aren't the same to them. He tells me to move on, because he doesn't know when or if he will snap out of it and he doesn't want me to wait for him to figure out his life. He said if he realizes he made a mistake he will be for me back. It's so ridiculously that he doesn't get how life works. However, I have helped ingrain that irrational thought process by accepting him back three times before. Why would he be in a rush or think I wouldn't. Our first break up he did te same thing. Said his feelings for me didn't outweigh his fears. We had just gotten back from Paris and were supposed to be moving in together. After 6 weeks apart and probably three weeks no contact (first 3 weeks I begged) he saw me with another guy and sent me a text saying "f you". It took him three more days after that to come back. The second time was just a break. It lasted 6 days only bc I was leaving the country. He had been staying in his office and came home bc he thought I left but I was still there so we talked and patched things up. Hilarious bc he was just waltzing back in w groceries when he thought I'd left the country! The third break lasted 2-3 weeks and it was related to the talks of marriage as well. This is when he sent this whole solitude and leadership article to me. I don remember what sparked him coming home that time. I guess bc I said we could hold off on marriage for awhile. So, I'm not sure why this time is so different. I think he's just conflicted and maybe you are right I just need to leave him alone. This will be our first Christmas in 5 years we haven't been together. He will be with his siblings having a blast I'm sure. If I could just get it through my head this isn't about me and solely his personal demons I could be at peace. I'd stop panicking about him seeing others or sleeping around and just realize no it might not work out but that would be sad for him. I didn't see how long you two were together? A year? I have pretty strong conviction that your cp will be back for another round, so I'd prepare for how you plan to handle it.
ConfusedHumanBeing Posted December 21, 2013 Posted December 21, 2013 I like how this thread has turned into a new user guy bashing fest.
Author rosedl Posted December 21, 2013 Author Posted December 21, 2013 Uhm Confusedhuman.... You are confused. This isn't a guy bashing fest. Belinda and I are writing about our experiences with two particular men and talking about the problems of commitment phobia. This doesn't apply to all men. We are trying to heal from the chronic push pull cycle that is the reality of being with someone who can't commit and talking about breaking the pattern. How that equates to guy bashing is beyond me.
Haydn Posted December 21, 2013 Posted December 21, 2013 off thread for a moment, I have never heard the term `Guy bashing` before, the images in my head.......(Sorry carry on). Uhm Confusedhuman.... You are confused. This isn't a guy bashing fest. Belinda and I are writing about our experiences with two particular men and talking about the problems of commitment phobia. This doesn't apply to all men. We are trying to heal from the chronic push pull cycle that is the reality of being with someone who can't commit and talking about breaking the pattern. How that equates to guy bashing is beyond me. 1
Author rosedl Posted December 21, 2013 Author Posted December 21, 2013 Belinda, we were friends for a year and a half before we got together. Today, it would have been our two year anniversary of when we first kissed. If he returns and I still want to try again which is becoming less likely by the day, it would require intense couple's therapy to break the cycle and address the issue of why this keeps happening. Weekly double sessions. The therapist is already in place and insurance approved. The last conversation we had left me pretty disheartened that this is ever going to happen. I think there is a large part of him that prefers solitude anyway and since that is the case, I think it is unrealistic to think that he is going to change. He already has the life he wants. He likes to ski, bike, and hike in the woods. He is very vested and successful in his work. He doesn't want to account to anybody. He envisions becoming more solitary as time goes by and he retires. It would take a lot of personal work and desire to change to successfully make our relationship work. I don't think being with me is enough incentive to change. I don't even take that personally anymore. If he really doesn't want the commitment and responsibility of a relationship, I have no business forcing him into it. I used to think that the leaving periods were the aberrations and the real him was when he would come back and he would get close again. But, that is dangerous thinking and it discounts the underlying struggle. Our first go around, I didn't really believe him and thought we should be together and if I could just talk to him and get through to him, it would all work out. When he came back, he was so accountable and sincere, I believed it was a turning point and he really wanted this as much as I did. He would talk about how silly he was being and slam his own ego and stubbornness. But, here we are again. The underlying problem never got resolved and my chase dynamic certainly just fed into the pattern. I can forgive myself for the first go round, I hadn't been through a full cycle before and never knew. But, this time I can't pretend I don't know or don't see what is going on. Letting go of the relationship is the only power you can have in this situation. They hold all their power with the trump card of walking, if you don't accept their terms. But, acquiescing to their terms doesn't get them to stay either. Of course it doesn't, you can't make someone feel safe 24/7 and nor should you be responsible for having to manage their emotions so that they will be okay. I got left each time when I held him accountable. Yet, strangely the discussion never lingered long on the actual issues I brought to him. Rather, it became about how my reactions were abusive to him. My anger about him going back on what he said made it so he couldn't trust me rather then the fact he was breaking his word. Yeah, you jerk someone around for a year around your intentions to divorce and then pull a change and admit that you have been manipulating her in hopes she would change her mind, it can make a person ANGRY. And, then it all become about my anger. Infuriating. God, the more I write, the less I want to be with him at all. Your guy is doing the same thing, you know. If you try to contact him outside of his terms, he is rejecting and cold and acts as if you are victimizing him for not respecting his space. It's a control trip. They don't really want you to go away entirely, just when they want. What are you going to do when your guy swings back? If you just let him back in, it sets the dynamic up to repeat in the future. Space only temporarily relieves their anxiety and fear, it will build again as the relationship moves forward and then, back to square one. Are you going to put any real conditions on taking him back?
belinda22 Posted December 21, 2013 Posted December 21, 2013 Rose- again your responses are SO very helpful to me. I keep saying my cp is two different people and this person he is is the dark terrible side of him but I think you are right. That side is always in there. It was just masked. It's so strange being who we are to understand their need for solitude. It goes back tho to a true cp- they want what they fear most, because if at some level they didn't want it at all they wouldn't have done it for so long. I think they are constantly conflicted so when they aren't with us they probably feel super relieved. An almost feel better. I'm sure they also Convince themselves this is what they want. My cp has lost weight. Is drinking more. Spending time with people he doesn't particularly enjoy. Traveling more for work. Had had nightmares. Cold sores I'm telling you, your guy is coming back if he's agreed to counseling. Mine hasn't . I don't even want to plan or prepare for him to come back bc I feel like this time may be different. It's been much longer so I don't know. These guys should have warning labels on them Did your cp say he didn't want a relationship? That's where mine is. He took the break with an end goal of marriage to not wanting our relationship right now. Like that makes no sense. He cries. Says he loves me. But doesn't want to be half in half out.
Author rosedl Posted December 22, 2013 Author Posted December 22, 2013 Belinda..... I know. A big red C should be tattooed on their forehead. Yes, mine says he doesn't want a relationship. We were talking about compromising in the relationship and I asked him what his compromise was? He said being in the relationship. We went to one therapy session to see if it would be helpful direction (she is on leave and it isn't realistic to start much before February). When she asked a question about the relationship, he said he doesn't want a relationship. She looked at him funny and asked him 'Then, what are you doing here'? He then backtracked and said.......I guess I said that didn't I as he was about to deny and started babbling that he meant he wanted an alliance or criteria for a certain type of relationship. It was ridiculous. This same session, one of the first things he stated to the counselor...."I have options'. It was such an obnoxious thing to say. He wants to keep all his options open so that he doesn't have to deal with the anxiety of being committed, not realizing he is putting himself through perpetual hell being torn between us and these so called options. I don't really vest much faith in whether my ex will return or if he will actually participate in the work of couple's therapy. He was stating he wanted to be with me forever and actually bridging the possibility of marriage shortly before our most recent break. So, if he will backtrack on all of that....it is silly to think he has the actual follow through to reconcile. I do think your guy will be back. The reason is simple. Commitment phobes don't commit to ANYTHING. They can't hold their decisions either way. If they swing to far to the one side of a final decision, they will soon swing far away to the other side. But, the same thing happens over there as it does here...they doubt the choice and then the anxiety kicks in...and they come back. My ex never let anything really go but never really fully committed to it. And, it isn't just relationships. He treats his house like a tent and hasn't done a thing to make it homey. He doesn't like bringing anything new into the house because he then feels responsible for the object. He is a freelance consultant, so he doesn't have to commit to work projects for more then a few months. It his entire attitude towards life. His activities are solo (cycling, x country skiing) and the friends he has in those circles are superficial and more like buddies. The only person he is close to is his daughter who lives out of state. If that is how he wants to live, it is his choice. I know one thing, I need a man who actually wants to be in a partnership and doesn't resent me for the relationship. Uh uh.
Recommended Posts